basically season 8 of suits:
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@annnahatcher-blog
basically season 8 of suits:
this better be a facts only postĀ
(via https://open.spotify.com/track/1KP3OTeaBYZOEORG6myajk)
This is for Donna Paulsen.Ā
For taking charge of her life.
For putting herself first.Ā
.
Donāt you love who I was
Before you knew me.Ā
.
can i have a second to discuss that we can literally SEE the moment harvey decides to give in and does what he wants to do for the rest of his goddamn miserable life which is kissing donna paulsen? can we talk about the moment he completely gives in to his own emotions and kisses her back? acn i DIE in peace?
āā¦and the feeling I thought were set in stone, It slips trough my fingers and I trying hard to let go, but it comes and goes in wavesā¦ā
It canāt get over on how Donna shushes Harvey with that kiss.
Oh gosh............
candyumbrella
reblogged your post and added: āSTOP. REDUCING. DONNA. TO. NOTHING. TO. MAKE. YOUR. SHIP. LOOK....ā
candyumbrella
My biggest problem with your post is that youāre... Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā
Okay... I think regarding the tweets and screen caps I have said my piece in the previous answer that I wrote just to say I will reply when I have time but what did actually intrigue me is that you dedicated half of this post to tell me just how valuable and whatever-you-called-it Scarvey is? I think we can go back and forth pushing our opinions down each otherās throats and down-grading what the other likes, since thatās how itās done these days in fandoms apparently, but honestly, since we will clearly never see the show in the same way, I would just like to go back to the point of the post I wrote- Darvey and Donna and clear up some things some of the people I actually do know in the fandom & have talked to about their views said and you interpreted in some weird way that actually has very little to do with what the parts of the fandom I know and have engaged with were / are going through in regards to either Scarvey since you talked about it so much or other stuffā¦
1)Ā āYou mean like how Darvey shippers insisted so hard that Harvey hadnāt slept with Esther at the end of 5x04 (even though anyone with eyes couldāve seen he did) that Aaron Korsh had to confirm on Twitter that they did sleep together?ā I can actually 100% say I wasnāt in any way a part of this mess / dilemma because I wasnāt tweeting about those episodes, however, I do actually know for a fact that there were more people from tweets to reviews than just Darvey fans who were confused on whether Harvey actually did sleep with Esther. For exampleā¦
So of course, if the writing clearly didnāt suffice for everyone in making a point that Harvey and Esther Ā slept together, people who love Darvey I guess held on to that, while they were more people ā āwith eyesā ā who didnāt understand if that happened or not.
2) I really donāt see the point of trying to show me that āignoring every actual storylineā and not showing āreal argumentsā? Has anything to do with people making Rachel a part of Darvey head canons. I understand your example, however, what fandom doesnāt make head canons that involve other characters regarding their ships? Not to mention that the writers of the show have over and over again made Darvey a part of a discussion with / between other characters where Rachel & Scottie are most definitely a part of that. + āwhen that very scene between them showcased their POVs as women, as girlfriends, and as lawyers, and added far more interesting layers to their characterization than whatever Darvey-propping YOUR fandom wantedā like, once again, as far as I know- people were making head canons about what that scene could be BEFORE IT HAPPENED. It wasnāt about me or any of the people I do talk to making that scene into something darvey related after that episode or being disapproving of it in regards to Rachel & Scottie interaction. It was prior to the episode- imagination, head canons, etc. ????
3)Ā āMarvey is THE central relationship of the showā Yep, I think itās safe to say that this is old news. When I said āMarvey never existedā I was, clearly and straight forward, relating to the āMarveyāromantic ship. No matter how central Harvey & Mikeās relationship is in the show, āMarveyā in a romantic way never existed.
4)Ā āYou donāt even believe that yourselves, in your heart of hearts. If you did, then 5x13 wouldnāt have bothered Darvey shippers at all, let alone bothered them as much as it didā
OHH GOD, first of all:
From the day of the episode, from my twitter⦠ since I donāt have the time in my life to literally dig up every single thing ever said by every shipper ever like you did, this is what came up from me, some of the stuff I posted that day and what I also want to say is: imagine a fandom that had prior to 513 Ā very solid episodes, with the network & writers & producer tweeting about their ship as well. And then they bring back an old love interest and stir things up again. I am not saying they canāt do that, after initial anger and a wave of hate for the writing, for me there was only understanding that itās a part of the way show does things- they want to keep everyone watching. Ok, I get that. HOWEVER, you canāt blame fans for being freaking disappointed and sad that after so many seasons and their ship getting closer and closer they pull that stuff. Itās like you are making a fandom that is upset because a half of their ship had an ambiguous (u can argue- open) scene with someone other than the other half of their ship into something that itās not. āAgain, if it really played as closure then why did it hurt you so damn much to watch it?ā OF COURSE people were upset?? Of course everyone who ships Darvey would have preferred that episode to be about Darvey. Isnāt that common sense? But that doesnāt mean all darvey fans went into a spiral of anger and panic because they deep down thought / knew Scarvey is endgame? O.o
ā(ā¦) Mikeās secret might have been the breaking point there were other things that contributed to that break-up ā including the fact that she (scottie)ās not the easiest person to be in a relationship with. This particular scene gets a bit of course correction at the end of the episode when Harvey admits to Scottie his trust issues were a factor, too, but that still doesnāt make her accept even a fraction of the blame. Letās knock her off that pedestal.ā (link: http://hiddenremote.com/2016/02/11/suits-review-gods-green-earth/) First hit on reviews for 5x13 from Google I just found, not some random Darvey fan, a person that is paid to write and analyses.
Not to mentionā¦
3x11, Jessica about Scarvey: āBut what happens when you two break up?ā
3x15, Donna, as said by Korsh- Harveyās emotional compass and voice of reason who also tried to make it work for him and Scottie because she wanted him to be happy: āSomeone who is pissed at you, Harvey. Someone who keeps finding a reason to be pissed at you. And itās not the 3rd time, itās not the 5th time and itās not the last time.ā
5x01, Jessica talking about Donna leaving Harvey: āShit Harvey, Scottie leaving didnāt throw you off your game as muchā
5) āIf Harvey ever said or did a tenth of what he said or did for Scottie to Donna, y'all would be in seventh heaven of shipper delight and you know it.ā
Yeah like all those times he USED THE FEELINGS SHE HAD FOR HIM TO GET SOMETHING? Like wanting her to drop a case, or telling her a story about how he first saw her knowing it will work to get her to do something for him? All those times he put other people before her? 3x16, Scottie: āNot now Donna (ā¦) I guess itās not now Scottie.ā How in the same episode she had to ask other people to tell her stuff to the extent that Jessica pointed out to her that she jumped into this relationship that is clearly not working out? The fact that he forgot she went away for 14 days and Donna had to remind him? The fact that his gift for her consisted of a bottle of scotch and then Donna bought glasses to make it into a decent gif, as voiced ON THE SHOW?
JESSICA HAS SAID SO MANY THINGS about Donna and Darvey relationship (not to mention Rachel, Mike, Big Bertha, Gretchen, Agard, Louis, ETC ETC) Harvey has literally behaved better towards Donna in the show than he ever did towards Scottie. He continues to open up to her, he went to see her play, brought her flowers, took her to breakfast and shopping because she was sad, told his freaking mother about her, LITERALLY TOLD DONNA āAnyone else ever loses faith in me, it doesnāt matter. But with you, itās different.ā All of the things he was never able to do in any of his relationships, he has done for her without a second thought.This isnt me just saying stuff to make another ship look bad, this is WHAT HAPPENED ON THE SHOW.
Like HONESTLY, you are free to prefer Scarvey over Darvey. BUT PLEASE, do not tell me I would love to have Scarvey-like scenes for Darvey because I wouldnāt be shipping them if that was the case. Season 1 where Scottie made Harvey a cheater, while knowing thatās the one thing he hates more than anything in life prevented me from ever feeling anything for that relationship. But everything that happened in s2, s3 and on for them didnāt make any difference either.
6) ⦠As Korsh said before 4B, āScottie always will be in the picture in some sense.ā The only classic trope missing from the list is āSheās the love of my lifeā and if they can get Abigail back in a future season it wouldnāt surprise me if that line came up in some form, especially since it was already implied when Harvey reacted to his sessions with Dr. Agard telling him he had to deal with his issues if he wanted to have a real relationship by seeking out Scottie to basically ask her if she would wait for him.
Wow now, I have to stop at this because you said WE are twisting things? Yes, Agard was talking about his relationships in general but that literally happened right after Harvey had a dream about Donna in connection to his mother issues. THEN Agard said that as long as he doesnāt fix these issues regarding his mom he will never be able to have a relationship. And letās see what happened regards to his mom later on. At the end of 6x11 Donna told him he needs to go see her because he wonāt be able to āfill that voidā otherwise. Then in 6x12 she gave him a peep talk to assure him (along with all flashbacks). Then he went to see his mom and told her he is ready to forgive her. She asked āWhy now?ā and He said āSomeone very special to me convinced me that I needed to.ā And she replied āWhoever it is, I am glad she did.ā Ā After they finally talked things through she gave him that picture to take back home to replace the painting and he asked Donna to be there to put it up with him. You really think after all this SCOTTIE will be the one Harvey will show up for after dealing with his issues and there being NO CONNECTION TO ANY OTHER LOVE INTEREST IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM in that episode?
KORSH LITERALLY SAID BEFORE 6x12: āHe has got some messed up issues with his mom. Until he gets through it, heās never going to be able to be the man for Donna. That is sort of the conversation and possibly the right assessment of whatās going on.ā AND AT THE END HE ALSO ADDED THAT even if Harvey may never fix his stuff with his mom, doesnāt become that man āBut nonetheless he is inching closer to her anyway.ā
No need to say more.Ā
7) Regards to the notes you made for Darvey fans behavior after 6x16 I donāt think we understand each other once again⦠the point of my post (also why I am replying to all the things I replied because I think you are mixing up stuff) was to say that I hate when people are making FAKE ASSUMPTIONS, compared to the show, about Donna to lift their ship up. And I didnāt say no one can ever complain about anything THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED for godās sake?
AGAIN, I KNOW FOR A FACT that people I TALK TO, and I BASED MY DARVEY PARTS OF THE Ā POST ON, AS I HAVE EXPLAINED SO MANY TIMES, WERENT ANNOYED BY THE DARVEY SCENE. I literally talked in a group chat after the episode and as everyone there processed what has happened we came to a conclusion that
a) It didnāt feel like āenoughā compared with how intense the promotion of the show in regards to darvey was + how 6.10-6.13 were in general but it will when it developsĀ
However,
b) That we were really excited because it left the door for them open and finally we will see the status quo of their relationship change.
If people werenāt ok with how 616 played out I understand them. The atmosphere of the fandom was incredibly positive and hopeful, largely to do so with how the show was promoted (as well as for the machel wedding, that also didnāt happen) but I truly donāt think out of that itās fair to make assumptions that every person that complained or didnāt think it was enough was just doing so out of personal belief that darvey fans shall have a part in decision making. But whatever, sooo wasnāt the point to my post.
8)Ā āBut sure, Darvey shippers are the ones who truly see Donna, while everyone else is trying to put her down just because she (supposedly) gets in the way of their ship. Itās not like most Darvey shippers saw zero value in Donnaās storyline in 6x16, right? Itās not like theyāre citing 6x11 and 6x12 as the best episodes of the season and saying everything else sucked, when Donna solely played a supporting role to Harvey in those eps and got her best material as a character in 6x15-6x16. Itās not like they didnāt all praise 5x12 as a great episode and then turn around the very next week and say that 5x12 hadnāt done anything for Donna as a characterāhow on earth could 5x13 retroactively harm what had been a great ep for Donna only 7 days before? OH, I WONDER HOW. Most of your fandom only gives a damn about Donna or anything relating to Donna if they believe the show is eventually leading to Darvey.ā
NOW THISā¦ā¦ā¦ Darvey fans were the ones who made (me and my friend Lamia as the ones who started it) a freaking hashtag during 6a about Donna deserving better that got so much attention FROM DARVEY FANS AND PEOPLE WHO CARE ABOUT DONNA IN GENERAL that Sarah thanked one of the tweets (which was explaining that itās about DONNA having a BETTER STORYLINE ABOUT HER, FOCUSING ON HER AS A PERSON). Not only that, Korsh also said he saw the responses and that it felt good to see, that even though he had the idea for Donnaās storyline before that happened, people wanting something he had in the works so much.
Not to mention the amount of times I have seen tweets from people who ship Darvey (myself included) saying that at the end of the day they just want Donna to be happy and were able to recognize moments where her happiness was more important to them than Darvey as a ship.
9) Ā And⦠you made 4 paragraph point about Harvey and his relationship with Scottie / Mike VS Donna. Again, I donāt think it had anything to do with anything I tried to convey, as not much of what you said did, however, it did amuse me enough to reply because I am just really amazed at the way you perceive things because->Ā Ā āDarvey shippers worry about whether Scottie will show up and Harvey will still be in love with her. Scarvey shippers are fine with Donna being in love with Harvey, because it makes no difference to our ship;ā ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦wtfā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦ā¦are you kidding me? For the first part- people donāt want Scottie to come back because WE ARE TIRED OF BEING PLAYED AND THE SHOW PUTTING OTHER LOVE INTEREST IN TO SLOW DOWN THE PROGRESS (as Korsh said in the Suits_usa blog that he knows once he puts Darvey together it basically closes the doors for other love interests) etc. I wonder what kind of world you live in where shippers of something, want half of some other ship to come back to the show? LITERALLY 90% OF THE DARVEY FANS I HAVE SPOKEN TO ARE SURE DARVEY IS ENDGAME. We are just waiting. TO QUOTE KORSH AFTER THE DREAM SCENE IN 6.11 āI find it hard to believe that in the rest of the seasons of the show we wonāt have more than just that but we will see when we get there.ā
I donāt think itās strange or pro-scarvey-endgame of Darvey fans to not want to have to watch Harvey with another person six seasons in while we know Darvey is bound to happen.
And for the 2nd part- I know there are only a few Scarvey shippers I have stumbled upon on Twitter, but, the fact that you said that Donna being in love with Harvey doesnāt make any difference to your ship is kinda funny since SCOTTIE ASKED DONNA āAre you in love with him, Donna?ā before making her choice with Harvey. Even if it didnāt matter to your fandom (which again, I donāt know much about other than what I have already said in my previous post), is sure as hell seemed to have mattered to a character on the show, a half of your ship. And that to me is a lot more important than anything else.
10)Ā āI donāt need to erase or forget or disqualify a single canon scene to ship what I ship, because comparing Darvey and Scarvey doesnāt hurt my ship, so I donāt need to erase Darvey to ship my ship, either.ā You literally spent 4 paragraphs telling me why Harvey cares more about Scottie or Mike in the ācanonā sense than Donna and miss-interpreted THE WHOLE POINT OF DARVEY, to justify your point. IF YOU HAVE READ ANY INTERVIEW AFTER s4 or WATCHED WHAT THE ACTORS SAID IN S5 BONUS, you would see that you quite literally just erased and disqualified more than just a single canon scene to ship your ship.Ā
Which brings me to my last point because quite honestly I am so done with reading what you said and trying to explain myself once again (and for the last time, FOR SURE.) when I could be doing so many more productive things- nothing made me laugh more (and I did laugh.) than your last paragraph. Maybe Harvey is your favorite character, maybe he isnāt, and quite frankly, I donāt even care, but itās more than clear that the only reason you mentioned that at the end is to try to add weight to everything you wrote prior. Oh so because he is your favorite character your intentions are completely pure and should be taken into consideration more than other opinions? I could say the same, Harvey and Donna are my favorite characters on the show. But I donāt think itās of need to point that out because you donāt have to think of Harvey as your favorite character to understand the basic storylines of the show and where they are going.Ā
I really donāt see the necessity of most stuff in regards to what my post was about. For whatever reason you had enough time to quote and talk about so much stuff, I donāt know. I didnāt even have enough time to read every post you provided with your claims. I just wanted to reply to what seemed to point on my post or simply found so amusing against everything I believe and am certain off that I just look couldnāt pass it.
I think itās more than clear we will NEVER EVER E V E R agree on anything about this show and thatās ok. I just wanted to try to make my points like you tried to make yours.
The end.
STOP. REDUCING. DONNA. TO. NOTHING. TO. MAKE. YOUR. SHIP. LOOK. BETTER.
I understand that different people ship different things, see fiction in their own ways, support and like stuff someone else might Ā dislike, but what I do not understand and will never be able to accept is people who feel the need to bring others down for the sake of lifting something they think is right and true up???
I have been in the Darvey fandom for a long time yet I had never ever seen someone say shit about Scottie to make Darvey sound better. I had never seen people hating on Mike because of āMarveyā (I donāt like Mikeās character, I have expressed that a million times but it has less than 0 to do with any sort of fictional ship he is a part of. I dislike him because I find his personality unattractive and I donāt appreciate people who arenāt prepared to work fair and square to reach their goals or think they are saints whenever they do the right thing ETC ETC. Again, 0 to do with any ship in any way shape or form. I had disliked him looong before I knew what āmarveyā is.) and the reason I donāt do that (besides wanting to not be a disgusting human being and not wanting to waste my breath on pointless stuff) is because I donāt have to and would never like or support anything on TV that requires of me to bring a character down for the sake of making my ship look better.
And this brings me to Donna. I have seen a few people lately saying that she is pathetic, attention seeking, egoistic, narcissistic ETC ETC and sad enough, all of these ālabelsā come without any other justification (I mean actual stuff, not just taking shit out of context.) than wanting to portray her in a bad way to prove their cases that Harvey should be with Mike / Scottie. She has literally supported Harvey (AND MIKE FOR THAT MATTER. MEANWHILE SCOTTIE HATES HIS GUTS. Another random fact Marveys who are now supporting Scarvey just because half of the ship isnāt Donna are ignoring but not surprised, they seem to ignore every actual storyline anyway.) since day one selflessly and with faith for him and his actions and called him out on his bullshit yet THAT seems to make her pathetic?
And she is attention seeking, egoistic and narcissistic because she isnāt afraid to show confidence and self-love? We literally live in a world where EVERY SINGLE DAY people hate on each other and try to make u feel less worthy than you actually are YET when a strong, female character that inspires so many people to be more confident is portraying how to be self-loving and believe in yourself, people like that try to give it bad connotation for the sake of making her less appealing in some lame attempt to make her unworthy character of Harveyās heart and time? Not to mention the fact that Harvey himself has been called narcissistic by a psychiatrist and is, by far, a lot more vocal about his love for himself than Donna ever was (nothing wrong with that, just saying), yet he is amazing and worthy more than her?
Every time Harvey does anything nice for Mike he is suddenly in love with him (while he literally voiced a million times in s6 that he āowes himā or that he āfeels guiltyā, but whatever) and I strongly disagree with the idea that being someoneās support system, fighting for them, being a good friend always implies romantic feelings, YET when Harvey does stuff for Donna, when he fights for her while having 0 to do with her mess, dreams about her, tells her he loves her, its never about love? Hilarious.
Marveys talk about being examples of supporting gay community and call anyone who stands in your way homophobic for disliking a ship of two characters you are forcing to be something they arenāt and accusing the writers of being homophobic for not putting them together PLUS trying to bring down a woman because half of your ship happens to be in love with her and try to reduce her whole personality to NOTHING. And then YOU CALL US awful people and then say you think Donna was only good in s1 where she was her own person YET NOW THAT SHE IS TRYING TO FIND HERSELF AND THE SHOW IS SHOWING HER FOR HER, NOT JUST SOMEONEāS SECRETARY OR A SHOULDER TO CRY ON AND IS TRYING TO FIND WHAT SHE WANTS OUT OF LIFE FOR REAL U ANALYSE A SCENE PORTRAYING THAT AS A LAME ATTEMP TO MAKE HARVEY INTO HER?
I have 0 trouble at admitting that I am far from perfect and have a lot yet to learn to improve my personality and generally views on life but, man, I really wonder how bad your personality must be to do all that? She literally went to Harvey to give her LEGAL ADVICE on whether she should take the deal that would determine HER OWN FUTURE and then she OPENED UP TO HIM ABOUT HER LIFE AND WHAT SHE HAS BEEN THINKING ABOUT (literally what Harvey has been doing to her for half of the show, yet then itās never pathetic or lameā¦) and when she said āI want something moreā the actual translation of that wasnāt her wanting to get some sort of love confession out of him???????? AND HE WAS THE ONE WHO ASKED HER WHAT SHE MEANS BY MORE AND SHE SAID SHE DOESNāT KNOW. You can say that maybe a part of her was talking about Harvey but that scene was about her life in general and she wasnāt freaking trying to have him say something or beg her to stay. It isnāt about that (NOT TO MENTION that she broke up with a guy she described as perfect because she realized he wasnāt the one for her despite the fact that he was smart, funny, asked her to move in with him and all that, BUT NEVER WENT TO HARVEY WITH THE INFO. She never asked anything from him. SHE is doing the things she does for herself. Not anyone else.) They are best friends since always. They trust each other. They lean on each other. She went to him for advice. Thatās what people do.
And to say that his face in that moment was disgusted or YIKES about the idea of her wanting more with him?? LOL, seriously? He literally had a dream about her not working for him anymore because of them having more in 6x11 (while kissing her in bed, he must really be disgusted and soo not into her right?) and this scene was her saying she might want to do something else and he was so freaking shook about it + what is he supposed to say other than be supportive and understand where she is coming from? I honestly love that scene with all my heart. I donāt think it was important for him to say something in that moment. I donāt think it was important to Donna to hear him say something. That scene was about her. About her life and future. It wasnāt about Harvey and his feelings. NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT HARVEY.
And I would also like to say another thing- even if you donāt see Darvey as romantic for whatever reason, you canāt deny they have been a team for over 12 years and have a strong bond and partnership and she admitted to him that at this point in her life having this job isnāt enough to her. ITāS HUGE. Even if you choose to look at in that way. HOW IS HE SUPPOSED TO RESPOND TO THAT? HOW DOES ONE (EVEN IF THEY DONāT HAVE ALL THE ISSUES HARVEY HAS AND HIS LOW EQ) FIND THE RIGHT WORDS TO THAT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WHOLE MESS THAT WAS HAPPENING TO HIM IN THAT MOMENT? I would have HATED it if he said something like āPlease donāt leave meā or āPlease stay hereā or āDonātā OR WHATEVER CERTAIN PEOPLE THINK THE MAJORITY OF DARVEY FANS WANTED HIM TO SAY? He has no right and she has supported him through everything in his life and itās time for him to give her the same and I would bet my life that he will do that in season 7, you will see.
Bottom line is- you ship whatever you want to ship, love whatever you want to love, you donāt need reasons to. BUT when you are trying to criticise something / someone, show real arguments and donāt take things out of context and maybe try to think about what kind of world you want to live in. I most certainly donāt want to be a part of something that requires me to shit on an amazing, strong, ambitious and supporting character that is trying to find her place in the world. Whether you think Harvey is in love with her or not, or you know he is and donāt want him to, I DO NOT CARE, I COULDNāT GIVE LESS SHIT about it. It just makes me absolutely sick to my stomach to have to live in a world where I have to see a girl bring another girl down for the sake of her ship.
I have 0 doubts Harvey will be supportive and loving, continue to be her rock, just like she is his and I WILL ENJOY WATCHING THAT whether you choose to see that or not, itās only making your experience worse, not mine. But what I will not shut up about is saying shit about Donna and making her into something she is not, so you can feel better about a concept of a ship that is long dead, or never existed in the first place for that matter.
Thatās all.
Bye.
(I understand and I am aware that there are perfectly nice and awesome Scarvey and Marvey shippers somewhere out there too, I am not trying to generalize you all to the same thing. Just addressing those who fit the descriptions I just gave.)
ITA.
If someone has to trash Donna to uplift their ship that means their ship doesnāt have the merit to stand on itās own. Admittedly, I donāt like either Mike or Scottie, but it has nothing to do with them being paired with Harvey.Ā
There are valid reasons to dislike or not care for Donna, but I loathe it when people exaggerate or take shit out of context or even make something up to āproveā their ship is better. First of all, taste is subjective. Second, if weāre going by healthy behaviors, support, care, love, etcāDonna has everyone else beat by spades (this is not to take shots at anyone, but facts). She pushes him to make healthy decisions and think shit out before he acts as well as think on the consequences of his behavior. Just about everything she says to him is out of love, respect, and overall wanting him to have/be the best.Ā
Donna is like the male version of Harvey is many ways, but they also have enough differences to balance one another out. Theyāre drawn to one another due to their similarities and how they play off of one another. But, they are the first ones to get the serious side of each other and have each otherās backs without questions asked.Ā
Despite being in love with Harvey, she always puts his best interests first: she did this with Scottie, Zoey, and other situations where she has no benefit. She also strives to keep him honest all while supporting his take no prisons approach. Like, I can go on about thisāIām not saying Darvey is perfect, but donāt come for Donna if youĀ havenāt been sent for.
candyumbrella
reblogged your post and added: āSTOP. REDUCING. DONNA. TO. NOTHING. TO. MAKE. YOUR. SHIP. LOOK....ā
candyumbrella
My biggest problem with your post is that youāre...
While reading this it became very much apparent that you took about 80% of what I wrote out of context and applied it to some broader issue of people who also happen to ship Darvey complaining about other characters and then somehow went into the topic of trying to prove to me how real and not-dead Scarvey is & that I am wrong about Harvey fighting for Donna because he just doesnāt love her enough (so you are allowed to understand things your own way but I am not allowed to say a ship is long dead to me, awesome!) while trying to justify and give additional weight to your arguments by posting screenshots and quotes -Ā
(some of which unless they are mine I have actually never seen before because I have a life outside gathering evidence of people saying stuff on social media, but I wonāt make this about me finding this whole thing creepy because I said to another person that if I will be given concrete evidence of people saying stuff I wonāt say itās not true)
- that donāt actually apply to what I was trying to say in my post (because I also donāt speak for every darvey fan ever, like you very kindly pointed out before you tried to prove a point by using something some other darvey shipper said against me personally).
So, instead of trying to reply to things in which I do not see connection or weight against me trying to prove my point about Donna, I am going to take the time to read through and see what actually applies to my post and reply to that when I am not studying. Ā I just wanted to make sure that you and anyone who thought what you said in every way goes as facts against my post donāt think I am going to move on from this because you somehow managed to find enough time to write thousands and thousands of words, most of which donāt really relate to what I said, and think I wonāt realize that because of the quantity?
I would rather focus on quality of what I am trying to say and not waste other peopleās time with things that donāt relate strictly to what the person I am trying to go against said, so I will make sure to do that once I reply to this.
-Ana
I feel like harvey's dream gets misinterpreted a lot in the fandom. I get that people like the kiss, but that dream also put Donna in the role of Harvey's mother! It was meant to show how messed up and complicated his feelings are with his mom and his abandonment issues. I don't think it was about any romantic feelings he has for Donna. I think it's been shown that he doesn't have any & the pining is all one sided from Donna. idk but that dream was creepy & meant to be a nightmare.
I never hadtrouble admitting his dream was partially also about his mother, especially in5x05 as that was literally voiced by his therapist. I totally understand thatpart of the equation.
But thatās notthe whole story.
I still thinkthat kind of dream, even if it was just sexual doesnāt always have to meansomething, I think subconsciousness is a strong indicator of how we feel but okI guess you could dream about someone you donāt necessarily want more with inthat way. But what you canāt forget is that we are talking about a tv show, notreal life. and once you put a dream LIKE THAT (even more so in 6x11, but I willget to that later) in front of the audience of which majority already sees thatrelationship as romantic, presented in such intimate situation of course peoplewill get excited about it and want and crave more (as Korsh LITERALLY said inan interview that it was his way of keep giving in a way that makes people wantmore)
Now regarding6x11 and that dream. If we first look at the situation itself, it wasnāt somuch directly about his mother as it was about the fact that (besides the clearportrayal that he is in no way over Jessica leaving) ABOUT DONNA. It wasnātabout his mom and his issues more than just them being a trigger for what isbothering and scaring him regarding his relationship with Donna.
āI told you oncethis happens again, I donāt work for you anymore.ā
āDonna, Youcanāt leave meā
āI am notleaving you Harvey, I just donāt work for you.ā
āThatās leavingmeā
So no matter howyou choose to see his dream in 5x05, you cannot deny it was about Donna. AndTHIS WHOLE DIALOG is from HIS OWN MIND, thatās what his (sub)consciousness istelling him, even the āI am not leaving you, I just donāt work for youā part iswhat his mind is trying to make him understand slowly but surely. (and I don'tthink itās coincidence from the writing point of view that donna is nowcontemplating her leaving him on a professional level because she wants morewhich already can tell you that the dream was not just about his mother)
And if thatāsnot enough for you, here are some quotes from actual interviews following thatscene from Patrick J. Adams who directed it.
āthis is thething you have been waiting for and all of a sudden itās happening and youdidnāt see it happen and you are like āwhat the hell is going on?ā and youāretrying to catch your breath and you realize, in fact that you are in Harveyāshead for that moment. But at the same time, itās no less relevant or importantthat you saw it because heās clearly thinking about it. In a fun way, thatmoves the story forward only in a way that Harvey understands and that Donnamight not be totally aware ofā
āAs a part ofthe culture of the show and where itās headed and where a lot of fans areexcited to see it go, it was a pretty monumental moment.ā
I donāt think Ihave to add anything else to this. I am the first one to admit that theambiguity of some things regarding Darvey gives freedom for different people tosee what they want to see, but please, donāt just go and try to refute thewhole purpose of that scene to just make it about one thing. Yes, of coursethese things point at his issues with his mom and Jessica leaving andabandonment issues, but thatās not the whole story.
Ā About it being anightmare- I think if you were to look at his face, right till the second untilit actually becomes apparent to his consciousness that this in fact is a dream& itās pointing at people leaving, he looks anything but unhappy. You canātdeny that just because you donāt want to see it.
Could you please make a fanfic or a yt vid using ed sheeran's new song "perfect" it would mean so much!! Thank u! šš
I think you might be the person from Twitter who alreeady messaged me so in that case- YES, i love the song and I think whenever I have a break long enough to actually do something that is so time consuming as a vid / update or write fic, I will try to!! Thanks for the suggestion x
āI want something more.ā
Ā AND HARVEY IS GOING TO SUPPORT HER
During the season finale of season 6 we finally saw why āThe Donnaā-project has been brought on the show; to make Donna question her life (both professionally and personally) and in the last Darvey scene of that episode we got to see Donna opening up to Harvey about this project in a way she hadnāt done to anyone else before.
While the scene started out as Donna seeking legal advice (a second opinion on the offer they got) from Harvey, it quickly turned into something bigger after Harvey gave her the same answer Louis and the other guys told her; to take the money.
D: I donāt want the money.
H: Donna -
D: I want something more and Iāve never said that out loud, but I canāt pretend thatās not true anymore. H: What do you mean āmoreā?
D: I donāt know. I guess Iām going to have to figure that out.
I personally love love love this scene and wouldnāt change a thing about it, but Iāve seen two questions going on about this in the Darvey fandom. āWhy didnāt Harvey say or do something?ā and Ā āWill Harvey support Donna?ā
As for the first question, Iām going to quote a part from this post by AnaĀ
āAnd this scene was her saying she might want to do something else and he was so freaking shook about it + what is he supposed to say other than be supportive and understand where she is coming from? I honestly love that scene with all my heart. I donāt think it was important for him to say something in that moment. I donāt think it was important to Donna to hear him say something. That scene was about her. About her life and future. It wasnāt about Harvey and his feelings. NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT HARVEY.ā - @annnahatcher
Cause seriously what could he have said?
He was basically in shock again, just look at his face, thatās the same expression when she told him she was leaving him at the end of season 4.
Except back then, he knew something had actually happened between them. This time there wasnāt anything directly going on and she still gave him this news. The news, that most likely made him think about his dream again. Of her āleaving himā (his words) when she says she doesnāt work for him anymore and even though Donnaās line in the 6.16 scene is super broad and it isnāt further specified what she means with it, because quite simply Donna doesnāt know. We canāt deny that this line resulted from her little business/work adventure and is amongst other things connected to that. To wanting more on a professional (and personal) level.
As for the other question. āWill Harvey support Donna?ā
YES HE WILL and let me tell you why I think he will.. If we look at Harveyās character there are a few things he values most; loyalty, trust, family, etc. But especially loyalty is one of the things that has been pointed out time and time again in the show, not just between Donna and Harvey, but Harvey and Mike, Harvey and Jessica, basically anyone important in his life. The importance of loyalty is so rooted in his being that it was even the quote he used in his High School yearbook.
āLoyalty is a two way street, if Iām expecting it from you, youāre getting it from me.ā
Itās also the very basis of the deal Donna and Harvey made the moment she came to work for him in the D.A.ās office. āHereās the deal. I will take a bullet for you and I donāt mean that literally. But what you do for me is, when I Ā need Ā something, you give it to me. Itās not just a one-way street.ā
And over the course of twelve years theyāve both shown how loyal they exactly are to the other. Whether it was by helping the other, protecting the other, fighting for the other or choosing for the other. Theyāve been doing this from the very moment they met and they still do (and will continue to do so).
On most occasions this agreement, this portrayal of loyalty was shown with firm/business related events. From Harvey asking Donna to call in favours from friends (Stephanie Liston at the U.S. Attorneyās office), to Donna protecting Harvey by taking evidence with her from the D.A.ās office and later giving this to Jessica to help with the case. To in her eyes protecting Harvey by destroying the General Motorās memo.
A great example of testing this loyalty is shown in season 2, right after Donna got fired. We see Harvey showing up at her place to check up on her, get her to come in for the mock trial and we get the following conversation. In which she pointed out that what she did was to protect him as part of that almost silent agreement they made years ago and in return sheād expected him to fight for her.
Episode 2.07: Sucker Punch
D: Yeah, important for me to get up there and say I screwed up trying to protect you?
H: You did screw up. D: Yes. To protect you. H: Which I never asked you to do. D: No, you just expected me to do it. Like I expected you to fight for me.
Donna eventually gives in and shows up at the mock trial, to help with Harvey case, but she gets humiliated in the process by Louis badgering the same question in her direction over and over again until Harvey finally gets up and tells Louis to stop.
Episode 2.09: Asterisk
D: You just had to jump in there at the trial, didnāt you? You just had to fight my battles for me. H: Yeah, I did that because the last time I saw you, you were pissed that I didnāt fight for you.
Although Harveyās actions didnāt exactly result in what Donna wanted, he did do what she asked and he promised to a long time ago. Fight for her, like she had done for him. Show her that same loyalty and he continues showing this by getting her back at the firm. Something heās been doing since the day she quit the D.A.ās office, he fought for her then too. To get her to come work for him at the firm, because as he told Jessica. āAnd Iām not coming here without her.ā
And sometimes itās personal. I think one of the biggest examples of this is when Donnaās life is on the line. Whether he was somewhat at fault or not, he fought for her and he chose her. Over any case going on at the time. From telling Mike that he doesnāt care what happens with the Liberty rail case as long as he can protect Donna, to him immediately saying Ā āIām going to take care of herā when Mike was under investigation of fraud to even when it came down to it and Donna offered a possible solution to stop Mike from going to jail, he said āDonna, Iām not trading you for Mike. Period.ā
(All examples of Harvey picking Donna over whatever was going on at hand and the fact that right now Harvey focussed on Mike and the Bar hearing instead of Donna is because of one big difference. HE DIDNāT KNOW. Harvey knew about the project, yes, but he had no clue what they were exactly doing with it, let alone the problems it was facing. Ā This is mostly because of Donna herself, she told Benjamin to keep Harvey out of it. She wanted to do this as herself, not as an extension of Harvey and when she needed help she went to Louis, because she knew Harvey was busy with Mike, something she also pointed out in that last scene where she did go to him⦠but you canāt tell me that if Harvey had known earlier he wouldnāt have tried to help. Same for those saying Ā āHarvey seemed fine the next dayā.. well yes, he just got his friend into the Bar. Donna was happy too in that scene, regardless of what was going on in her life.. but now imagine Rachel picking up Mike to go home after that last scene from 6.16.. Do you think heād still be this happy when his gaze would fall on Donnaās cubicle, or would that conversation she had with him the day before, that reminder of his dream be brought back to mind?)
As mentioned above.. besides the times Harvey fights for her life, the āneeds/ favoursā Harvey has Donna deal with are often business related or to get her to stay with him/work for him, yet Donna often calls in her āchitsā with him when it concerns a mutual friend. Like when she asked Harvey to get Louis a new job or when she asked Harvey to go and talk to Mike about Rachel. Ā They even used the āNeed?ā āNeed.ā again in the latter situation, just as when he asked her to come back to the firm. Itās like this is their way of asking the other to take up on that deal they made all those years ago.
Whatās interesting about the scene in 6.16 (especially because itās placed at the end, after Donna helping Harvey with Mikeās Bar deal while she already knew her own project might be at risk of failing) is that this time, she points out how sheās been helping others time and time again.
āHarvey, I know youāre in a rough place right now, but whateverās going to happen with Mike is going to happen. Youāve done everything you can. AND IāM TIRED OF PUTTING MY WANTS ON HOLD.ā
This is her admitting, maybe for the first time to herself, let alone aloud, that she has always been putting her life on hold and she isnāt going to do that anymore. (and she did this in front of Harvey). And I personally think that is HUGE and I feel like this line can be directly linked back to that very deal they made on the first day she came to work for him. This is going to be the time she needs something/support from him.
The conversation between Donna and Harvey then continues as mentioned earlier with her asking about the deal and opening up about wanting more than the money. Something he asks her to clarify, which she canāt do yet.. and they silently look at each other for a moment, and the scene ends with a very conflicted and scared look from Harvey.
The big question remains, will Harvey support her? Like I started, they made this deal about support a long time ago and up until now itās been mostly about firm related events or favours for others, yet this time Donna came to talk to him about a deal and it turned into something as big as HER LIFE.
Even though Donna couldnāt specify what she meant with more, I think we should remember that Harvey at this point might be more aware of what he wants than Donna and what she wants. He had that dream of them together in the morning and that dream also happened to point out his biggest fear.
Ā D: I donāt think you understand. I told you once this happened again, I donāt work for you anymore.
H: Donna, you canāt leave me.
D: Iām not leaving you, Harvey. I just donāt work for you.
H: Thatās leaving me.
D: No, Harvey. Thatās not leaving you.
The fear of losing her because of a change in status quo regarding their relationship, breaking her rule⦠The big difference is, that in reality it is Donna actually hinting at that one thing he fears without there ever having been that change he dreamed about. Without them actually having crossed that line.
And we can see that fear, that connection to his dream, wash over him as we look at his face and even before this episode aired I personally always thought that a line like this from Donna. Or a conversation like this, something that would hint at that fear of losing her, without an actual change having happened between them is THE PUSH that Harvey needs and we got that, we just havenāt seen his actual reaction towards it yet.
Itās just the start.
So while we know what he wants deep down, a relationship with her. I think the show has proven time and time again, that having her in his life no matter what is the most important thing to him. From settling for that to be as just his secretary, because he wasnāt ready for more all those years ago. To keep asking her to come back to work for him; the one way he was certain heād always have her/never lose her, but this time, this time he knows he canāt ask her that anymore and heās known that for a while now.
His so called āfight to keep her in his life at any way possibleā has changed over the course of the last two seasons. Because where it once was him fighting to keep her to work for him, we saw him actually accept the fact of her working for Louis in season 5 at a point where they were almost estranged.
Something Donna confronted him with, with the following words: ābecause I trusted that at the end of the day, youād remember that weāre family. But maybe I was wrong. Because I spent 12 years putting you first, and the day I finally decided to do something for myself, you didnāt just stop treating me like family, you started treating me like a stranger. And for your information, that is a thousand times worse than if you treated me like your enemy.ā
This scene, these lines, combined with the scene in the conference room where it was Jeffry saying: āBut I did give up everything for you. I put my life on hold. I sacrificed my dream for yours. Iām never going to get those years back.ā And we saw Harvey look at Donna during those lines, it is the moment things shifted.
We could see that realisation hit him, that what Jeffry was describing in that very moment is what Donna had been doing for him and after that moment he started fighting to keep her in his life regardless of that being as his secretary. We saw him come to her desk and thank her for all the years she dedicated to him, we saw him come to her in the file room telling he wants to get back to being friends. We saw him suggesting they should go to dinner more often.
And when she did come back to him in 5.11 it was HER DECISION. It was her making that move, because of Mikeās case. (Once again putting someone else above her own needs/feelings) And when her father got caught up in this case, it was Harvey actually asking Donna if she was sure with staying with him. Telling her that heād understand if sheād want to go back to Louis, because he understood that it is and should be her choice.
This is also seen in the first episodes of season 5, where even though Harvey told Louis he was going to get her back and he was cold to Donna because he was hurt. Deep down he knew better, he knew it wasnāt his decision to make. Because when Jessica point blank asked him if he wanted her to undo it, he said itās Donnaās choice and he to some extent supported her decision in that moment.
H: You mean, the fact that I donāt have a secretary. J: I mean that after 12 years, the woman you wouldnāt come work here without is now working for someone else. H: And you want to know why. J: I donāt need to know why. I need to know if you want me to undo it. H: What?
J: I know you and Donna arenāt me and Jeff, but you are as close as two people can be without being that. Shit, Harvey, Scottie leaving didnāt throw you off your game this much. H: I appreciate the offer. But as long as Donna wants to work for Louis, I am not going to force her to work for me.
All these scenes are moments of Harvey realising that what Donna did was a decision she had to make, for herself and that fighting that decision was only going to drive her further away. Another important one to add is the therapy scene from Season 5 Episode 3. Where Paula uses a projection technique and we actually get a scene of Harvey ādirectlyā confronting Donna and he tells her heās been with her every step of the way. She counters with āIt wasnāt every step of the way, you bailed out the second I WANTED MORE.ā
Ā THIS IS HIS SUBCONSCIOUS. He knows he did this (ran away, but not before you told me you loved me.. & not being able to show up for that conversation she asked for in 4.16), just like his subconscious in 6.11 told him that if she stopped working for him because theyāre together it doesnāt mean sheās leaving him. He knows that!
Ā And in the scene from the finale she literally said to him āI WANT SOMETHING MOREā Ā This time it wasnāt directly related to him, or them relationship wise.. but about her and her life. What she wants and while she still needs to figure that out, deep down Harvey does know what he wants. And he also knows from experience that if he wants to be part of her life in any shape way or form that heās got to do something. Be there for her, fight for her. Support her.
Does that mean heāll do so directly in 7.01?? I donāt know, we canāt forget that his issues (mom/abandonment and her rule) have respectively been there for 20 and 12 years and a dream and meeting your mother isnāt making those magically disappear completely. This is Harvey Specter weāre talking about. An emotionally challenged man whoās slow AF. Heās scared and confused, we could see that on his face in the scene, so it might take a moment for him to wrap his head around it, but
He knows the deal they made a long time ago
He knows she wants him to fight for her
(Just like he knows she wants him to fight for what is in his heart)
Ā He knows sheās been putting her life on hold for him
He knows it is her decision to make
He knows he bailed out the last time she wanted more
He knows that his unsupportive behaviour almost made him lose her last time
He knows that her not working for him isnāt leaving him
He knows what he wants (a relationship)
And if he wants to reach that dream of them being together. Of them having everything, something he hasnāt even had a chance to act on yet because he still felt guilty about Mike going to prison and felt like he owed it to Mike to get him into the bar. But now that that is done and he might actually allow himself to think of realising that dream, then surely he must be able to connect the dots and understand that he needs to support her. Be there for her while she figures it out, like sheās been there for him all these years.
Her telling him this was just the push, this is just the start.
So YES, I really think he will be there to support Donna on this journey in season 7.
And remember, the last time she focussed on an old dream of hers. He showed up with a bouquet of flowers telling her that āThe only thing I got going on tonight is you.ā while being in the middle of a Mike mess. He supported her then when it was just a play, when the stakes where nothing. Heāll support her now, when the stakes are everything.
-Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Ā Fin.
Be more like the man you were made to be
SomeoneĀ āvery specialā to me.Ā
I love that Lily assumed he was talking about a āsignificant otherā and he didnāt deny it :ā) Ā
1) Your anons have been saying "some" to indicate that they indeed have enough intelligence to understand that you don't mean all marvey/scarvey fans; that just wasn't the focus of their messages but your refute to their arguments was to reply "for the nth time I didn't mean every single fan" which doesn't refute anything. 2) For not seeing any posts that reduce Mike/Scottie: "To say 'I have never seen that' is literally the weakest possible argument to say against what I tried to point out."
1) Not really. Just one person said SOME, the rest have been basing all their arguments on saying that not all "Marvey" / Scarvey fans are the same so... 2) I said before there is a difference between saying āOh I am a marvey and I havent seen anyone ever tweet that so u must be wrongā when I CAN SHOW YOU PROOF, while I am trying to say here that I have YET TO SEE THAT from Darveys to someone who is accusing me of contradicting myself without any arguments, I am 100% not going to say you are wrong when I see something to make me believe so while the whole basis for my post was the FACT that I see Marveys doing that every single day on Twitter and the person STILL said I am just flat out wrong and writing fiction. How hard is that to understand for you?
āHe didnāt have to tell me, I read it off his face.ā