It's fascinating to still see people occasionally reblog my post about how Catti and Jockington are totally going to be in chapter 4. Considering it was completely wrong about everything.
"I thought chapter 4 was going to be the Church/Catti level for a while!" I exclaim as it turns out Catti is the only character to never enter that building. She didn't even get directional sprites!
Future chapter discussion, Now with 10% more Catti and Jockington!
(CW / snow grave discussion)
I haven't gone on one of these rambling tirades in a long time. But I kinda fell out of deltarune for awhile. But chapters 3 and 4 are coming out real soon! So I have a reason to playthrough this 9 hour beast again!
Now I know chapter 3 is the one that's more reasonable to be excited for since it's the next one. But come on, look whose post you're reading. I'm gonna be hyped about the chapter with Catti in it. And that's all but confirmed right? You could say it could be another solo Kris and Susie chapter but this image on steam kinda gives it away for me:
That's chapter 4, it has the same floor pattern from the confirmed chapter 4 segments in the trailer. And it's referencing Jockington. And besides a single room in chapter 2. Lightners are only mentioned by name if they're actually there.
Like there wasn't a point in chapter 1 where the Top chef mentions Snowy or something. There is that one time where Ralsei shows that he knows where the empty classroom is in the light world, but Ralsei is probably the exception since he's just weird with stuff like that already.
continued under the cut:
Not to brag, but I actually thought chapter 4 would be the J/C chapter for a long time. I mean if it's going to be the church, then you gotta have the goth girl show up. It's right there. Although I don't know realistically why the two of them are going to be there.
So what is that going to be like? Besides awesome.
It's impossible to know for certain what's going down in chapter 4 since it takes place after the events of a chapter already we know nothing about. We don't know why there's a dark world in the church, if it wasn't opened by the knight then it could have been opened by Alvin, and assuming that this isn't the chapter where the entire town discovers that dark worlds are a thing, there probably isn't a sermon that day.
It's safe to believe that Susie's tactic of making everyone think that the dark worlds aren't real so this stays a thing between her and Kris, isn't going to work on J/C at all. Catti's into the occult, if there would be anyone to believe about some secret underworld it would be her.
I won't use her chapter 2 dialog about Noelle as evidence that Catti already knows that they exist since it's just a gag about her way of talking.
Short sentences, long pauses...
Only the most important details. Scattered between metaphors.
A poet's intent. Lost by the listener's own beliefs...
Search for meaning... At you're own risk.
She does weirdly over correct herself after mentioning Noelle walking among the dark. Like she said something she shouldn't have.
Maybe Kris gave her a weird look after she said to protect Noelle from the dark, and she's just clarifying. I don't think this is anything more then a joke.
The two of them don't seem to tag along with you for that long, because in the... One screenshot we have of gameplay after the presumed opening with Kris and Susie before Ralsei appears. They are nowhere to be found.
There could be a segment similar to chapter 2 where Ralsei and Susie leave Kris alone, and Catti and Jockington would take their places. Catti also really doesn't like Susie, to the point where Susie doesn't even want to be around her, she doesn't have that reaction with anyone else by the way. So that's probably why she isn't around in that screenshot.
Maybe Catti and Susie could grow to be friends in chapter 4? Or at least not hate each other. Depends on what history is there. Catti and Kris were friends, maybe she tried standing up for Kris? That's probably not in character for her at all, and we still don't really know how close Kris and Catti were. "Don't die.", we at least know Catti doesn't want Kris to die. And they studied the occult together. That's about it.
They could also be in antagonistic roles like Berdly and Susie were in their chapters. Maybe Jockington sides with the bad guy. Why? Maybe Jockington is really religious, probably not.
I use Jockington as an example because I can't see Catti willingly siding with the antagonist unless the chapter is more occult themed then just basic religious stuff. But Jockington is pure of heart so I can't imagine him being evil either. Maybe he thinks he's doing the right thing, but he's Jockington so he's completely wrong. Jockington gives strong Lancer vibes in their types of villainy.
So ever since chapter 2 any discussion about future chapters has a certain subject loom over it like a storm cloud. You know it, you might like it. The weird route. Will Chapter 4 have a weird route.
Probably not.
I could type all sorts of hypothetical situations to how the chapter's guest characters could turn to murder and how that's based in small plot details from already obscure characters. But I think a lot of people miss the point of the route.
The weird route isn't about brainwashing your friends into killing people. It's about the player getting desperate for control.
Deltarune isn't shy about telling you that you have no control over what happens in it's story. It's on the steam page, the second voice in the intro tells you that nobody can choose who they are in this world, and Susie tells you your choices don't matter shortly after that.
I think Susie represents this idea a lot actually. Time and time again you are shown that you can't control what Susie does. In chapter 1 she fights without you telling her to. You spend her entire fight against Lancer desperately trying to knock her down so she doesn't kill him. In chapter 2 she wills Ralsei and herself into having ACTs because she's getting upset with the sweet cap'n cakes fight taking too long. And anytime there's a dialog choice with her, you can pick anything you want but nothing actually changes.
And it looks like there's gonna be a rhythm game segment in chapter 3, and would you look at that. you can't control her there either.
I think Noelle is supposed to be Susie's opposite here. Her own desire/lack of control is a running theme with her. There are a lot of things in her life that she can't control, so she clings onto what she can. She likes being in situations where she's scared, but still has enough control to get away at anytime.
It's why she has the courage to talk to Susie in the Farris wheel at all, it's still scary, but she believes that she's dreaming and can wake up anytime, nothing she said will matter.
Noelle also is into looking for glitches in video games, pushing them as far as they go until they break, finding things in a game's world that should be impossible. And through you doing the same thing in the weird route, you don't allow Noelle to go through her intended character arc. She stays a pushover the whole time and does everything you tell her to do, the thorn ring probably helped a lot here too. When the player calls out to her in Spamton's fight she's drawn to it like a magnet, and instantly follows the player's orders. She gets the route where you can actually change what happens. It's fucked up, but you made your choices matter through any means possible.
This is also my explanation for why I think [Hyperlink Blocked] is the word "choices" being censored. "YOU AND THAT [Hochi Mama], YOU'VE BEEN MAKING CHOICES". If he ever said the word choices without getting censored please let me know.
You have no control over Susie, and you have way too much over Noelle
And while we will see if chapters 3 and 4 have weird routes. I think thematically it fits for this route to be more Noelle centric. It requires less mental gymnastics to justify Noelle being special with her connections to the game's central theme and her inability to stand her ground against the player. Then trying to justify how Toriel and Catti, people with much stronger wills and little to no connections to the theme of control, will start killing people because Kris said so.
But then again, before chapter 2 came out If you told me you could convince Noelle to kill people with a magic ring and enough persuasion, because the game's theme says so. I wouldn't believe you, So I don't know.
I guess... Catti thinks her family isn't goth enough and uh... Can't control that... Oh and Toriel... She's... divorced... yeah... Doesn't really hit the same as Noelle's missing sister and terminally ill dad. Maybe we just don't know enough about them yet. And this route is all about going against what should be possible, so you all can point and laugh if I'm wrong. I at least know that I'm right about friend inside me absolutely not being a thing that's going to happen... I hope...
Also, I don't know if we're seeing Papyrus in this update. This screenshot of Sans correcting you about something doesn't inspire confidence.
I swear this is all set up for the ultimate joke that deltarune's Papyrus is a baby or something and Sans is acting the way he is because, "What do you mean you want to meet my baby brother, fuck off. Come back tomorrow". It would explain why Papyrus knows what green grass is but not the sun. He was a baby the last time he saw the surface.
I was going to make a long post speculating if image_friend, who just got confirmed to actually be a character. Could have been the author of the mystery valentine in the newsletter. But I think I'm the last person to make that connection. Oops.
I'm assuming it's a new character. Friend has the weird Gaster naming convention, and we have no reason to believe Spamton is on the same level as him.
I hope Catti and Susie still fucking hate each other after chapter 4. Just because it would be funny. I hope we learn why Susie refuses to be in the same room as her though.
What do you think will happen between Kris and the Player?
Hi, thanks for the question! I think about that a lot, naturally.
This is something that is still pretty controversial among theory crafting folk as of right now. But I think Kris is the knight. And I believe that they are the main antagonist of the game.
continued under the cut:
Chapter 2 did a lot to show the player how you are actively working against Kris's best interests. It's a point the game really wants to hammer in; Kris isn't just a silent protagonist. They are an actual person that you have taken control of and is fighting against what you are making them do. And I think Deltarune will take this idea to the farthest extreme and use it to make you, the player the protagonist. And your unwilling puppet, the antagonist who is working against you.
Whenever Kris is in control of their body, they are always doing something to facilitate the creation of a new dark world. The best example we have is the house's dark world. We see how they plan it out. They plug in the TV the night before, and they slash the car's tires, so Toriel would call the police.
Chapter 2's ending deliberately shows us every little detail Kris wanted for this dark world.
We see them open the door so the responding officer can get inside, showing that they wanted Toriel to call the cops.
We then see them turn the TV back on, something that would be important enough for the dark world to be themed around it.
And we see them stare at Susie, the third delta warrior. Who would have to be there for Ralsei's prophecy to not be immediately disproven.
Why do we have any reason to believe that this is an isolated incident? We are shown that Kris opening this dark world isn't something that they did on a whim because of something they saw in chapter 2. They wanted to do this as early as the ending of chapter 1, and probably before that. With Kris plugging in the TV we know that they're aware that dark worlds can be created wherever, and that dark fountains are created by lightners and aren't created on the dark world's side. We only learn how to create dark worlds in chapter 2 so we the viewer know what the hell Kris is doing when they stab the floor later.
So, if we know that Kris is fully willing to create dark worlds and situations where random people fall into them, as shown with the random cop who's going to respond to Toriel's call. Who's to say that isn't exactly what Kris did with chapter 2's dark world with Noelle and Berdly? I'll admit Kris would be banking a lot on Berdly and Noelle choosing to go to the library to work on their assignment, rather than... Noelle's giant mansion down the road. But we know Berdly has work every day after school, and since he works at the library Kris could know that they would probably be there? It's weak I know but I'm sure there's some information that's purposely being withheld right now.
The one thing that I can't ignore however is that when Kris and Susie first see the school closet's dark fountain. Kris gets scared and backs away from it when Susie asks them to go in.
The best explanation I can think of for why they seem scared by it is that they're faking it. Susie only goes in to show that she's not a wimp like Kris.
Kris has purposely played into pre-chapter 1 Susie's anger before. As seen in Noelle's "newest girl girl" post. It could be them goating Susie to go in first.
Now I don't like sourcing Noelle's blogposts because... They're really weird.
I was going to point out that Noelle is acting uncharacteristically lovey-dovey about Susie being terrible to Kris. But we have no idea when these posts were written. Noelle could genuinely be like 13 writing some of this stuff. Which was probably the intention.
"Which, um, contain arsenic if you didn't know. X)" reads exactly like a little kid who wants to look smart by showing that they know the name of the chemical that makes apple seeds poisonous.
Speaking of evidence I'm not super confident in. Deltarune's world has a lot of parallels with Undertale's... I'm... sure you have noticed this by now. But some of these parallels are weird, because it feels like the events being paralleled only happened because of events that happened in undertale. Like Toriel and Asgore's divorce, from what we know it was mainly caused by their disagreement on Asgore's plan to kill any human that falls into the underground. Before that they had a really happy marriage, if the true lab tapes are anything to go by. And sticking with Asgore here, in his flower shop he has this weird shrine dedicated to 7 flowers. Which considering that Asgore was removed from the police force because of something he assumedly did on duty, that makes Kris uncomfortable enough to stop the player from reading about it. There are some implications there of what he did.
But what I'm getting at here is that what if Kris has more than a surface level connection with their closest possible Undertale counterpart, Chara.
We don't know much about Undertale's Chara, on account of them being dead and everything. But we do know that they liked chocolate, had a brother named Asriel who later remarked that they weren't a great person and despised humans, can make a scary face, and made a plan to kill themselves to save everyone with Asriel. Uh oh...
Kris being the knight would finally give an explanation for why they're holding the knife like that. They aren't going to murder everyone or just get some pie; they're going to open a dark fountain.
What if that is Kris's motivation for all of this? Like Chara they're trying to save everyone who they see as trapped. The only difference between a protagonist and an antagonist is perspective.
That could be why they're showing the dark worlds to as many people as possible. But if they want to cause the roaring it's strange that they have almost a schedule for when they open new dark worlds to make sure there aren't ever more then 2 open at once. Because if they can do it at any time, why are they waiting until the previous one gets closed before opening a new one? There doesn't seem to be a sort of cooldown for creating dark worlds. The classroom was opened for chapter 1, the library's was opened after that for chapter 2, and now Kris just opened one for chapter 3. What are they waiting for?
And before you say it, I don't think Kris is doing this just so they can go on fun adventures with their friends or so they can be the hero. Because they're not, you're the one making them close the dark fountains and they hate being controlled by you. And I think something that could end the world shouldn't be used as a fun hang out spot. It would just make Kris look like an idiot.
So how do I think this is going to end? Well, I've got some ideas.
Can't wait for chapter 3 to disprove all of this by the way.
Future chapter discussion, Now with 10% more Catti and Jockington!
(CW / snow grave discussion)
I haven't gone on one of these rambling tirades in a long time. But I kinda fell out of deltarune for awhile. But chapters 3 and 4 are coming out real soon! So I have a reason to playthrough this 9 hour beast again!
Now I know chapter 3 is the one that's more reasonable to be excited for since it's the next one. But come on, look whose post you're reading. I'm gonna be hyped about the chapter with Catti in it. And that's all but confirmed right? You could say it could be another solo Kris and Susie chapter but this image on steam kinda gives it away for me:
That's chapter 4, it has the same floor pattern from the confirmed chapter 4 segments in the trailer. And it's referencing Jockington. And besides a single room in chapter 2. Lightners are only mentioned by name if they're actually there.
Like there wasn't a point in chapter 1 where the Top chef mentions Snowy or something. There is that one time where Ralsei shows that he knows where the empty classroom is in the light world, but Ralsei is probably the exception since he's just weird with stuff like that already.
continued under the cut:
Not to brag, but I actually thought chapter 4 would be the J/C chapter for a long time. I mean if it's going to be the church, then you gotta have the goth girl show up. It's right there. Although I don't know realistically why the two of them are going to be there.
So what is that going to be like? Besides awesome.
It's impossible to know for certain what's going down in chapter 4 since it takes place after the events of a chapter already we know nothing about. We don't know why there's a dark world in the church, if it wasn't opened by the knight then it could have been opened by Alvin, and assuming that this isn't the chapter where the entire town discovers that dark worlds are a thing, there probably isn't a sermon that day.
It's safe to believe that Susie's tactic of making everyone think that the dark worlds aren't real so this stays a thing between her and Kris, isn't going to work on J/C at all. Catti's into the occult, if there would be anyone to believe about some secret underworld it would be her.
I won't use her chapter 2 dialog about Noelle as evidence that Catti already knows that they exist since it's just a gag about her way of talking.
Short sentences, long pauses...
Only the most important details. Scattered between metaphors.
A poet's intent. Lost by the listener's own beliefs...
Search for meaning... At you're own risk.
She does weirdly over correct herself after mentioning Noelle walking among the dark. Like she said something she shouldn't have.
Maybe Kris gave her a weird look after she said to protect Noelle from the dark, and she's just clarifying. I don't think this is anything more then a joke.
The two of them don't seem to tag along with you for that long, because in the... One screenshot we have of gameplay after the presumed opening with Kris and Susie before Ralsei appears. They are nowhere to be found.
There could be a segment similar to chapter 2 where Ralsei and Susie leave Kris alone, and Catti and Jockington would take their places. Catti also really doesn't like Susie, to the point where Susie doesn't even want to be around her, she doesn't have that reaction with anyone else by the way. So that's probably why she isn't around in that screenshot.
Maybe Catti and Susie could grow to be friends in chapter 4? Or at least not hate each other. Depends on what history is there. Catti and Kris were friends, maybe she tried standing up for Kris? That's probably not in character for her at all, and we still don't really know how close Kris and Catti were. "Don't die.", we at least know Catti doesn't want Kris to die. And they studied the occult together. That's about it.
They could also be in antagonistic roles like Berdly and Susie were in their chapters. Maybe Jockington sides with the bad guy. Why? Maybe Jockington is really religious, probably not.
I use Jockington as an example because I can't see Catti willingly siding with the antagonist unless the chapter is more occult themed then just basic religious stuff. But Jockington is pure of heart so I can't imagine him being evil either. Maybe he thinks he's doing the right thing, but he's Jockington so he's completely wrong. Jockington gives strong Lancer vibes in their types of villainy.
So ever since chapter 2 any discussion about future chapters has a certain subject loom over it like a storm cloud. You know it, you might like it. The weird route. Will Chapter 4 have a weird route.
Probably not.
I could type all sorts of hypothetical situations to how the chapter's guest characters could turn to murder and how that's based in small plot details from already obscure characters. But I think a lot of people miss the point of the route.
The weird route isn't about brainwashing your friends into killing people. It's about the player getting desperate for control.
Deltarune isn't shy about telling you that you have no control over what happens in it's story. It's on the steam page, the second voice in the intro tells you that nobody can choose who they are in this world, and Susie tells you your choices don't matter shortly after that.
I think Susie represents this idea a lot actually. Time and time again you are shown that you can't control what Susie does. In chapter 1 she fights without you telling her to. You spend her entire fight against Lancer desperately trying to knock her down so she doesn't kill him. In chapter 2 she wills Ralsei and herself into having ACTs because she's getting upset with the sweet cap'n cakes fight taking too long. And anytime there's a dialog choice with her, you can pick anything you want but nothing actually changes.
And it looks like there's gonna be a rhythm game segment in chapter 3, and would you look at that. you can't control her there either.
I think Noelle is supposed to be Susie's opposite here. Her own desire/lack of control is a running theme with her. There are a lot of things in her life that she can't control, so she clings onto what she can. She likes being in situations where she's scared, but still has enough control to get away at anytime.
It's why she has the courage to talk to Susie in the Farris wheel at all, it's still scary, but she believes that she's dreaming and can wake up anytime, nothing she said will matter.
Noelle also is into looking for glitches in video games, pushing them as far as they go until they break, finding things in a game's world that should be impossible. And through you doing the same thing in the weird route, you don't allow Noelle to go through her intended character arc. She stays a pushover the whole time and does everything you tell her to do, the thorn ring probably helped a lot here too. When the player calls out to her in Spamton's fight she's drawn to it like a magnet, and instantly follows the player's orders. She gets the route where you can actually change what happens. It's fucked up, but you made your choices matter through any means possible.
This is also my explanation for why I think [Hyperlink Blocked] is the word "choices" being censored. "YOU AND THAT [Hochi Mama], YOU'VE BEEN MAKING CHOICES". If he ever said the word choices without getting censored please let me know.
You have no control over Susie, and you have way too much over Noelle
And while we will see if chapters 3 and 4 have weird routes. I think thematically it fits for this route to be more Noelle centric. It requires less mental gymnastics to justify Noelle being special with her connections to the game's central theme and her inability to stand her ground against the player. Then trying to justify how Toriel and Catti, people with much stronger wills and little to no connections to the theme of control, will start killing people because Kris said so.
But then again, before chapter 2 came out If you told me you could convince Noelle to kill people with a magic ring and enough persuasion, because the game's theme says so. I wouldn't believe you, So I don't know.
I guess... Catti thinks her family isn't goth enough and uh... Can't control that... Oh and Toriel... She's... divorced... yeah... Doesn't really hit the same as Noelle's missing sister and terminally ill dad. Maybe we just don't know enough about them yet. And this route is all about going against what should be possible, so you all can point and laugh if I'm wrong. I at least know that I'm right about friend inside me absolutely not being a thing that's going to happen... I hope...
Also, I don't know if we're seeing Papyrus in this update. This screenshot of Sans correcting you about something doesn't inspire confidence.
I swear this is all set up for the ultimate joke that deltarune's Papyrus is a baby or something and Sans is acting the way he is because, "What do you mean you want to meet my baby brother, fuck off. Come back tomorrow". It would explain why Papyrus knows what green grass is but not the sun. He was a baby the last time he saw the surface.
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