Untitled

[discourseburner1298]

allllright then. that's why I use a burner, I guess.

[sconesalot]

i think people are very entitled when it comes to fanworks. people seem so indignant, to have their ships, to keep making things, even when they are told to stop.

with the discussion around pyro and maddy and their characters, there seems to be two responses, on the side of those who push back against their statement: upset, and anger.

the upset half's argument seems to hinge on the sunk cost fallacy. i spent so much time on this art, this fic, this comic, why do i have to stop? is my love of this thing useless? won't someone think of me, and my love for this thing that makes you uncomfortable? as an autistic person, i certainly understand, and i understand the feeling of uncleanliness for liking something now 'wrong', it was the same feeling after the dream smp, but this isn't 'wrong'.

there was nothing immoral about it before this statement, and there is now. it is purely a matter of consent. previously, pyro consented to having their characters shipped, now, he doesn't. surely, we all remember consent is a cup of tea? if someone wanted tea, but changed their mind, don't give them tea. logically, there is no reason to feel as though you have been personally betrayed by these ccs, the same as if someone changed their mind about a cup of tea, it is not an insult to your personal tea-making skills.

the angry side comes from the same impulse, i think, a betrayal and vitriol. how dare these random youtubers tell Me what to do? how dare they tell Me to stop, after playing into the ship and the joke, how dare they limit my creative expression, don't they know the internet is a wild west and people will do anything on here, it is pointless to try stop people from doing what they want, so you may as well be okay with it.

this i find a little harder to be empathetic towards. i find it deeply entitled. i have seen people who would place their creative outlet and expression above actual people, with minds and lives, who would rather continue to make their ship art, to the distress of other people, who live on the planet. the idea that you would continue to violate this boundary, when told not to, is disgusting to me. it reads, to me, in the analogy of consent is a cup of tea, as 'this person wanted tea, and changed their mind, but i loved making tea, and how dare they refuse a cup of tea, i'm going to throw it at them'.

and my personal stake in this is that, i am, technically, a cc, not just in the sense that i am an artist and (less so now, but certainly in the past) writer, but that i stream and i stream, specifically, on a lore-based smp, where i play a clear, distinct character who is not me. faye asteria, the version of me on the ouasmp, is not me, but he is, like me, aroace. i would prefer if no one shipped him, romantically. if i were a bigger creator, would people be happy and feel entitled, in the same way, to ship my character and ignore my wishes? does the fact that it is tied to my irl sexuality make it less okay? i'm not inside people's heads, and i'm not popular enough for this to be real discourse, so i'll never know, but it does give me pause.

people often bring up anne rice, in this conversation of 'online free speech' and i feel a bit sick, when people bring up her former distaste for fanfiction and make this comparison, because interview with a vampire is a story, when you peel back all setting and vampirism, about her, her husband and her dead child. whatever it grew into, it began as a way for her to express her grief. how would it feel to put that hurt into the world and have someone else twist it into whatever they want.

i don't feel i need to clarify that i don't support suing fic writers or harassing them, or running people off the internet, and i, being an artist and (less so now, but very much in the past) fic writer, obviously love fanworks. but it is weird to see how entitled people feel to ccs, to their lives and their characters and the romantic relationships that they may be portrayed in, and i don't like it. i cannot ever value fantasy and fiction over the wellbeing of real, breathing, living people.

[discourseburner1298]

I saw on twitter you were open to people asking questions, so I'm gonna ask a few here. Fair warning that I don't agree with you on most things here, but I'm just curious.

Are you saying that Anne Rice, if she didn't send Cease and Desist letters to fan authors, was ok to ask them to stop making fan fiction?

Why do you think the tea as consent metaphor is applicable here? If fans are staying in fan spaces and not bothering ccs, why should it matter to them what is happening out of their view?

I do not think Pyro was joking when he talked about "little birds" and dealing with people who do "repeated offences." He was responding to a sincere question in chat and wasn't using a sarcastic or joking tone. If this was, somehow, a joke, it was completely inappropriate. Looking at the clip do you really think it was a joke?

Lastly I do want to talk about your concern with your aroace character being shipped. Personally, while I do think characters can be shipped outside of their canon sexualities, I do agree you have to be careful with changing aroace (or even gay) characters sexualities, and that it is a sensitive situation. I agree that many people just ship aroace characters because they want to, and don't fully understand aspec peoples experiences. I categorize this under preferences that don't deserve to simply be stated as "boundaries," as they are influenced by systemic issues. Similar to ccs of color not wanting to be drawn white, or ZombieCleo not liking being drawn skinny, I think this is a more nuanced area.

[sconesalot]

hi! yes, i am okay with questions, but as youve specified we disagree and with the specific points youve made, i am inclined to believe this was made in bad faith to trip me up. however, to answer you:

1. this post was not about anne rice, she was being used as an example of the way people refuse to interrogate the interiority of people who set these boundaries. i am not saying anything about the morality of her actions, only pointing out a possible reasoning behind them (i didn't know her personally and can't pretend i know why she disliked fanworks).

2. consent is a broader issue than just in sex. consent is a cup of tea is applicable in any scenario consent is applicable in. but if you have issues with that allegory, an example i used personally with my friends was pronouns. my pronouns are he/him, it is against my boundaries to call me any other pronouns. to willingly do this behind my back is still wrong and disrespectful, even if it was behind my back.

3. this one is just a strawman argument, but. let's say he wasn't joking. let's say pyro was going to harass shippers. does this make it okay to break his boundaries? is it okay to go against his explicit wishes and cause him and maddy distress, because he is a bad person? in my pronouns example, is it okay to misgender bad people?

i think it all comes down to remembering these are people, and people deserve respect.

[discourseburner1298]

I wasn't trying to trip you up, I promise! I genuinely just wanted to get more of a perspective from "the other side," and you had the best post I saw from a person who also had their age in bio (I try not to get engage minors in disagreements).

I guess I'm just not gonna be able to understand this sentiment, but that's ok. I truly believe that making fanworks based on people/their characters/their art is not the same as directly disrespecting the people themselves. From what I see you do think Anne Rice would have been ok asking people to stop writing certain fanfic if she had "the right reason" and I just don't think that's true! I think people making art based off of other art is beautiful, no matter if what they make is uncomfortable or not.

If I could turn the bad faith argument back on you for one moment, I think you not engaging with my last question and instead calling it a "strawman argument" is incorrect. I was replying to a tag you had under your post, not making up something you said. I think it is a genuinely concerning thing for a cc with a relatively big audience to say.

No, it's not suddenly "okay" to "break his boundaries" if he was harassing fans, because I think it would always be ok. My opinion does not take into account the creators actions. No, I don't think it's ok to misgender people, because that is directly disrespecting the person (and their gender) in question. I think these are different situations.

[sconesalot]

i think people are very entitled when it comes to fanworks. people seem so indignant, to have their ships, to keep making things, even when they are told to stop.

with the discussion around pyro and maddy and their characters, there seems to be two responses, on the side of those who push back against their statement: upset, and anger.

the upset half's argument seems to hinge on the sunk cost fallacy. i spent so much time on this art, this fic, this comic, why do i have to stop? is my love of this thing useless? won't someone think of me, and my love for this thing that makes you uncomfortable? as an autistic person, i certainly understand, and i understand the feeling of uncleanliness for liking something now 'wrong', it was the same feeling after the dream smp, but this isn't 'wrong'.

there was nothing immoral about it before this statement, and there is now. it is purely a matter of consent. previously, pyro consented to having their characters shipped, now, he doesn't. surely, we all remember consent is a cup of tea? if someone wanted tea, but changed their mind, don't give them tea. logically, there is no reason to feel as though you have been personally betrayed by these ccs, the same as if someone changed their mind about a cup of tea, it is not an insult to your personal tea-making skills.

the angry side comes from the same impulse, i think, a betrayal and vitriol. how dare these random youtubers tell Me what to do? how dare they tell Me to stop, after playing into the ship and the joke, how dare they limit my creative expression, don't they know the internet is a wild west and people will do anything on here, it is pointless to try stop people from doing what they want, so you may as well be okay with it.

this i find a little harder to be empathetic towards. i find it deeply entitled. i have seen people who would place their creative outlet and expression above actual people, with minds and lives, who would rather continue to make their ship art, to the distress of other people, who live on the planet. the idea that you would continue to violate this boundary, when told not to, is disgusting to me. it reads, to me, in the analogy of consent is a cup of tea, as 'this person wanted tea, and changed their mind, but i loved making tea, and how dare they refuse a cup of tea, i'm going to throw it at them'.

and my personal stake in this is that, i am, technically, a cc, not just in the sense that i am an artist and (less so now, but certainly in the past) writer, but that i stream and i stream, specifically, on a lore-based smp, where i play a clear, distinct character who is not me. faye asteria, the version of me on the ouasmp, is not me, but he is, like me, aroace. i would prefer if no one shipped him, romantically. if i were a bigger creator, would people be happy and feel entitled, in the same way, to ship my character and ignore my wishes? does the fact that it is tied to my irl sexuality make it less okay? i'm not inside people's heads, and i'm not popular enough for this to be real discourse, so i'll never know, but it does give me pause.

people often bring up anne rice, in this conversation of 'online free speech' and i feel a bit sick, when people bring up her former distaste for fanfiction and make this comparison, because interview with a vampire is a story, when you peel back all setting and vampirism, about her, her husband and her dead child. whatever it grew into, it began as a way for her to express her grief. how would it feel to put that hurt into the world and have someone else twist it into whatever they want.

i don't feel i need to clarify that i don't support suing fic writers or harassing them, or running people off the internet, and i, being an artist and (less so now, but very much in the past) fic writer, obviously love fanworks. but it is weird to see how entitled people feel to ccs, to their lives and their characters and the romantic relationships that they may be portrayed in, and i don't like it. i cannot ever value fantasy and fiction over the wellbeing of real, breathing, living people.

[discourseburner1298]

I saw on twitter you were open to people asking questions, so I'm gonna ask a few here. Fair warning that I don't agree with you on most things here, but I'm just curious.

Are you saying that Anne Rice, if she didn't send Cease and Desist letters to fan authors, was ok to ask them to stop making fan fiction?

Why do you think the tea as consent metaphor is applicable here? If fans are staying in fan spaces and not bothering ccs, why should it matter to them what is happening out of their view?

I do not think Pyro was joking when he talked about "little birds" and dealing with people who do "repeated offences." He was responding to a sincere question in chat and wasn't using a sarcastic or joking tone. If this was, somehow, a joke, it was completely inappropriate. Looking at the clip do you really think it was a joke?

Lastly I do want to talk about your concern with your aroace character being shipped. Personally, while I do think characters can be shipped outside of their canon sexualities, I do agree you have to be careful with changing aroace (or even gay) characters sexualities, and that it is a sensitive situation. I agree that many people just ship aroace characters because they want to, and don't fully understand aspec peoples experiences. I categorize this under preferences that don't deserve to simply be stated as "boundaries," as they are influenced by systemic issues. Similar to ccs of color not wanting to be drawn white, or ZombieCleo not liking being drawn skinny, I think this is a more nuanced area.

[discourseburner1298]

You are allowed to make whatever art you want.

I know today Pyro updated his "boundaries" regarding shipping of his and his girlfriend, Maddy's, characters. I am here to tell you that you do not have to follow them.

Art is art is art. All art is derivative and all art can be derived from. To try and command people to only create certain fanworks based on your art, you are fundamentally misunderstanding how art and humans work.

I understand that people put a lot of themselves into their roleplaying work. Emotional bleed is a very real thing, and I can only imagine how much bleed there is in between the wishy-washy line of Minecraft roleplay. However, and I don't mean to be rude, creators simply have to deal with this. If what they are acting is affecting them in real life, that is something they have to find a way to work around. If what people are creating based on their acting is affecting them, they need to find a way to avoid seeing it themselves.

When you put something out into the world for people to enjoy, think about, play with, you cannot prescribe what they then do with it. If your partner puts something out into the world, you cannot prescribe what people do with it. If you are uncomfortable with what your partner is doing, have a talk with them about how they can change their behavior, whether that is no longer joke-flirting with people, no longer interacting with shipping content, or anything else. You cannot decide what their fandoms get to do, though.

Boundaries that actually work in situations like this, where people are uncomfortable with being shipped/their partner being shipped:

Don't send me or my partner ship works. If we see any ship works we will block you.

Don't talk about ships with me or my partner in either of our chats or discord servers. If you do, we will ban you.

(To other ccs/friends) Do not flirt with me on stream, and don't encourage shipping of me to fans.

Now, a lot of this has been said before, by people more articulate than me. I decided to make this post however because of one thing Pyro said on his stream that I think is very concerning.

Link Transcript: (In response to chat message that reads: I'm choosing to read this as "don't @ me or send me content that makes me uncomfortable, and I won't go looking for it in spaces (like tumblr or w/e)."

"um, if I hear about- I mean I have- I have my little birds in all forests, and if I hear about, um, if I hear about repeated offences, then, like, I will send my people after them. But, um, and I will- like, y'know, deal with that in ways that I deem appropriate.")

This is a threat to fans. He is threatening online harassment to people for the crime of shipping characters. He is saying he has full knowledge of his fandom, that you are never safe from his eyes, and that any step outside the lines (offense) is going to get people sent after you.

This is not safe. This is not possible, even. But this will create a community of fear and policing as people rush to "inform" other fans who create "boundary-breaking" fanworks that what they are doing is "wrong," and if they don't immediately fall in line, they will be harassed out of the community. Many of these fans, by the way, being teenagers.

Overall, this is a mess of a statement and stream that demonstrates a lack of care, and a lack of the knowledge and grace needed to be a public figure. I hope everyone who has participated and is participating in his fandom is well and okay right now. Keep creating, I wish y'all the best.