We've seen attempted Heroic Sacrifices before in RWBY, but such attitude has been deconstructed. We have Jaune against Cinder in Volume 5, attempting to kill Cinder no matter the cost to himself. We have Winter telling Penny that she should not have been saved at the end of Volume 7, which Penny refuted. One could even argue that the climax to Volume 4, with Ren's unnatural aggression towards the Nuckalee is seen in a similar light. Trying to kill the monster of his nightmares no matter the cost to him.
So why are those attempts to die to save people rejected and seen as toxic. While Penny's sacrifice was an affirmative, thematic thing to do?
Hi!
I honestly hope this season will give us the thematic answer, tbh!
Still, if you wanna my opinion, as for now...
I think it is because the theme explored is not the dychotomy between life/death, but rather it is the dychotomy between self-actualization and negation of the self.
Pyrrha and Penny affirm who they are through their deaths, while Jaune, Ren and Winter's attempts are born by self-hate.
Let's clarify... Pyrrha and Penny's deaths are not a positive things. They are a tragedy, but a tragedy, which is born from outside circumstances rather than because of Pyrrha and Penny's flaws.
Sure, you can say that Pyrrha's wish to be a hero made her into a martyr... and that Penny's objectification by Atlas and how she internalized it is why she finds in the scenario that leads to her death... Still, their final choices are not born by these flaws. They are born by the willingness to affirm who they are. They are manifestations of their final goals. Of their destinies.
Pyrrha's destiny is to be a Hero, a Huntress. So, when the time comes she chooses to fight Cinder to try and stop her from destroying Beacon Tower, even if it means giving up on Jaune. The Destruction of Beacon means each country becomes isolated and weakened. This is why she tries, even if she knows she will probably die.
Penny's destiny is friendship. So, when the time comes she chooses to fight to protect her friends, even if it means putting the relic and the Maiden powers in danger. When Cinder strikes her and Penny has to choose who should get the power she chooses Winter (who she wants) over Weiss (who needs the power at the most in that moment).
As you see, Pyrrha and Penny's final choices are also a different takes on the want vs duty conflict.
Pyrrha spends the majority of her arc by following what she wants. A life as a normal teenager. However, by the end she chooses to kiss Jaune goodbye and fights Cinder. She chooses her duty as a Huntress.
Penny spends the majority of her arc by trying to be the hero and to balance what she wants with what she must do. Still, in the end she chooses her friends over her duty as a Maiden.
Let's also highlight this is not so black and white. By the end, Pyrrha finally succeeds in conveying her feelings for Jaune. Something she struggles with throughout her whole story. Similarly, Penny by the end manages to keep the Maiden Powers safe from Cinder, hence succeeding as a Maiden.
As you can see, the important thing is not what they choose. It is not that the series says duty is more important than want. Or that Pyrrha is right and Penny is wrong. Or that they are both wrong. Or both right for that matter. What the series highlights is that their final choices are not born from the desire to destroy who they are. Rather it is an affirmation of who they are. Pyrrha is a Hero. Penny is a Real Girl. This is what they want to be and this is who they affirm they are in their last moment.
I would also like to highlight that both Pyrrha and Penny have moments where they are about to sacrifice who they are for the sake of others. And both are framed as wrong:
Pyrrha is asked to absorb Amber's aura through the Aura Machine. This is framed as sinister and Ozpin adds Pyrrha might not be herself anymore at the end of the process. The implication is Pyrrha might have lost her feelings for Jaune and her loved ones. If Pyrrha had successfully gone through it, then the choice would have been wrong. Still, Cinder interrupts the process and leaves Pyrrha the chance to make her own choice. To be a hero on her own terms, not because someone pressures her. To be a hero because she is Pyrrha Nikos (a normal girl with a huge heart) and not to give up Pyrrha Nikos in order to become a hero (a maiden with powers).
Penny tries to sacrifice herself twice (really three times). The first time, she suggests she should go to Salem with the Relic, but Oscar points out Atlas would have still fallen. The second time, she suggests to Weiss she should just leave her behind because Cinder only wants the power. She is immediately proven wrong by Cinder, who states she is gonna kill everyone regardless. Both times she tries to sacrifice herself heroically for others, she is shot down by the narrative. Such a choice would be useless. Finally, she tells Ruby to kill her, so that she can protect the powers. Ruby finds an alternative and so Penny gets to be saved. The final choice, is not like the previous ones. There, Penny is already dying and there is really not third option. There is not enough time to cure her. All Penny can do is then to make a final choice. This choice can be one of negation... Giving the power to Cinder. Giving it to Weiss even if what she wants is to say goodbye to Winter. Letting Jaune cure her hopelessly and seeing as he and Weiss get killed before Cinder gets to her. Or she can impose herself and do what she thinks is best. To get the chance to choose who is gonna take the powers. To get the chance to mend a conflict with a friend and to wish her goodbye.
So, thematically Pyrrha and Penny's last choices are tragic, but they convey who they are through them. Let's quickly look at the other examples you gave, instead:
Ren's rush agaisnt the Nucklevee is a condemnation of revenge, rather than self-sacrifice. Ren is losing to his anger and needs Nora to calm down, before he hurts himself and others.
Jaune's suicidal charge at Cinder is just like Ren's (Ren's foreshadows Jaune's). Still, the whole point is that Jaune is trying to imitate Pyrrha, but is doing it wrong. Pyrrha sacrifices herself out of a strong sense of self and for the sake of others. Jaune tries to sacrifice himself out of self-hate and he does so selfishly. His actions disrupt everyone's rhytm and team-work. Weiss finds herself in danger precisely because of this. She has to go against Vernal on her own because all the others are scattered and disorganized and this is a consequence of Jaune's charge. Not only that, but Cinder refuses Jaune's attempt to play hero by killing Weiss to spite him. It is only at this point that Jaune starts acting selflessly and ends up saving Weiss. It is at this point he is actually acting like Pyrrha would.
Winter tells Penny her life has not worth. I don't think this needs much more elaboration. Winter's sense of self is so frail, she lets Ironwood decide things for her, even if she knows he is wrong.
So, the dychotomy in my opinion is not sacrifice good or bad. Rather it is are you ascending :P or are you regressing? Are you affirming who you are? Or are you getting undone.
Which is what I hope the next episode makes clear with Ruby tbh. Her drinking the tea is the result of a gesture of negation of the self. She has no idea of who she wants to become, so she doesn't know what to choose. Right now, she seems to be choosing to be Summer because she thinks this will make her enough. Still, this is bound to backfire and I hope she realizes it is not through negating who she is she can truly ascend, but rather through accepting it. We'll see though :)
Okay so this morning, this squiggle meister took a read at a preview for one of the stories that would be featured in the upcoming RWBY: Fairy Tales of Remnant set to release this year September 15th. It’s titled “The Warrior in the Woods”. If you haven’t read the small preview of the tale for yourself, you can find it right here on kobo.com where you can also preorder a digital copy of the book.
Speaking of, does anyone know where one can preorder a hardcopy version of this book? Or do I have to wait till it comes out in September to order the hard copy version then? Of all the upcoming RWBY-related projects that I was most looking forward to, it’s definitely this one and I’d definitely love to own a tangible copy of the book for myself if it’s available.
Anyways let’s talk about “The Warrior in the Woods” story specifically. Obviously I read it and without spoiling much from the short story, all I can say is that I definitely loved it. I think right out the gate, I’m going to peg this one as one of my favourites of the fairy tales purely because I found it to be a rather sweet one.
Honestly I want any anti-Huntlow person at this point who says the couple has no appeal or thematic value and is just a generic hetero ship with the attractive male love interest to look my disabled ass squarely in the eye (looking down, with your ability to stand.) and tell me that people who look like Hunter are considered "conventionally attractive", and that I've not gone to disability and autism support groups filled with people with face/body scarring and disfigurings that severe (often tied to disabilities),
and conditions that will never get better that had literally no friends outside the support groups because y'all treated them like freaks for having a misformed lip or not having full upright-ness of their body (I have a feeling Hunter's eye bags might never go away, like I feel the 24-hour eye bags I have had in real life for several years might never go away),
and that the choice to portray a love story between a disfigured, fundamentally different person in love with a healthy plus sized Asian girl who was bullied and given severe mental issues and now finds strength in his reassurance and literal help as one of the people who helps stabilize her so she can be a badass.... is conventional and what cishet white audiences want lmao.
We have 3 bisexual female characters, the two leads are given female and nonbinary love interests with more screentime, and the m/f bisexual couple is late-series and with a gender dynamic of a strong woman who fights to protect her friends and domestic-violence survivor partner, who now is being characterized primarily by his desire to be soft and domestic (sewing? gardening? wanting to just be seen as a human?) isn't still groundbreaking? There literally is no way it could be more fair and appealing of a concept to you.
Like. I'm starting to think maybe some of y'all have bad reasons for being vocally against the ship which is full of people who just want to be positive and left to themselves (and have much of the crew on their side as fans). Maybe if a ship like this is being put in your gay show, it's just as groundbreaking for different reasons you don't see.
Some of us cripples (including us queers) have partners who Hunter and Willow remind us of (especially with the amount of transgender grimwalker Hunter interpretations I've seen or fan concepts where Willow eventually starts using her plant magic to help stabilize Hunter's body in older age from Grimwalker decay as a partial root being), mostly people just like you, just more open-minded and willing to see us (and literally hear us, if you've seen none of this, somehow, yet) as people.
And I don't just speak for myself, I have a plus sized South Asian bisexual girl friend who says Hunter and Willow's gender dynamic was one of the few times she ever saw herself in television and loves it equally as me.
I cannot tell you how happy it makes me that one of the most popular ships is one involving a plus sized girl and she isn’t talked about like a novelty. She just is plus sized! And also rad as hell! Anyways huntlow is a great ship I’m happy for them
