Could you perhaps explain what the general idea or intent behind the pedalo puzzles in Sheol's Residential District were? I've tried to come up with at least something in my analysis, but it's the only area I have basically zero confidence in having ascertained. I can discern well enough that the reason it's flooded and so fragmented (entering the Apartments through Zacharie's Arbela square shop) is because of Malachi being overwritten by Daedalus and that what land even remains is representative of how much of him is even still left— plus perhaps an allusion to his apparent memory problems that have arisen as a result of Daedalus' Corruption that is suggested by his dialogue in Layer 3, where so much of his District in Sheol is gone because his brain has been completely scrambled— but the pedalo puzzles confound me to no end.
Well, from a purely technical standpoint, I wanted to have a puzzle on a pedalo that wasn't just the usual theme park propellers.
Symbolically though, I suppose I should point out Malachi and Jadon were the only ones of the District Guardians to have a "living" thing corrupt and control them, and their areas of Sheol have puzzles pertaining to you dealing with someone/something trying to mimic your movements either by or against your will.
That's kinda it really. The unfortunate truth is that Malachi's lack of characterisation, and his general simplicity, leaves very little to play around with, even with factoring in Daedalus.
Does the pure place below Sheol's church have an official name? I remember that it has an unofficial name, "Heaven"
I basically call it the same thing even though it's meant to have no real name, so yeah in essence its name is Heaven. Maybe if the place were a bit bigger, it'd be deserving of that title.
What inspired Null & Void? I haven't really seen anything like it and it left an amazing impression on me.
That's the one part of Sheol I didn't actually create (except for the computer event itself), but I do know the history behind it.
Partway through development of SinDec, Dismal took a break and decided to work on a separate fangame called Null & Void. I didn't actually know about this until he came back from this break and shared what he made, which wasn't much.
It got about partway through Zone 1 and then just stopped, it was very cryptic and very strange, and had an obsession with Eyes and Teeth as a symbolic motif. You played as a blank-faced Batter who was berated by two Hugos with exclusively Eyes and Teeth respectively, and you had to accept the boon of Eyes or Teeth from one of them to even hope to contend with the inverse rules of that broken world. This also reflected in the Batter gaining Eyes or Teeth based on your choice.
The experience itself stuck with me despite it being so short, and a good while later I suggested we add it into the Sheol segment as a fun "Game within a game" thing.
It never became a full-fledged game within SinDec, for obvious reasons lol
Dismal's particular aesthetic flare made it a perfect fit for SinDec, and it was eventually incorporated a little further into the more meta parts of the game, particularly with Hugo and the Save Files. Ultimately though, the purpose of N&V is pretty obvious, and I guess it's double confirmed now since I asked Dismal if it was okay to talk about this, and he gave me this to quote him on:
Honestly only thing I can add in is that I wanted a place to dump lore that didn't fit in. It was also a kind of mean way to poke fun at people who dug too deep.
That last bit was also why the biggest chunk of it is in Sheol.
It still has its place in SinDec's lore, but it would be dishonest to say its aesthetic and characters were originally made for SinDec. It was born elsewhere, incomplete, and plucked from the void where it would have died, to live a life where it wasn't doomed to an eternity of nothing.
Hey, would it be okay to ask about the person/being found at the end of the Sheol in SinDec? The one that gives you the bad end. Who/what is he? What does he represent? Does he have a name, etc.?
It's totally okay to ask! I don't think I can give a direct answer without ruining the mystique though. I certainly think if I revealed it, people would be disappointed.
Who and What he is is pretty simple. What he represents is fairly layered, and admittedly may never be figured out since some of it requires a lot of behind-the-scenes context. I encourage you to keep trying and find the interpretation you think makes the most sense though.
But I will throw one thing into the ring that I don't think should change much. A recent analysis of Sheol I read (1/2/3/4/5) did have the interpretation of it being a place where those forgotten and unloved end up. While I can't say it was something I actively thought of when making that place, I also can't deny that lines up well thematically with everything there, including him.
what area are you the most proud of? and what are gave you the most technical challenges?
I lied, I'm sorry, I'm a natural born rambler...
Honestly, The Outside as a whole still holds a special place in my heart. It was the first place I ever started working on the game hands-on, and it was my first time really using RPG Maker in general. Learning how to make panoramic maps, creating puzzles, playing with enemies... being a complete beginner meant I was doing a lot of experimenting.
I remember scratching my head for hours because I desperately wanted to NOT use a Switch for every single boss in the Boss Rush, and tried pulling all sorts of mathematical fuckery to try and pull that off, only to give up and resort to Switches anyway lol. I've gained a lot of knowledge with the engine since then, so if I ever redid that place it'd probably be very structurally different under the hood.
When it comes to technical challenges though, where to start... both Dismal and I encountered a lot of walls just because we were both learning more about the engine as we went and had to learn the limitations of the engine. Even now when we're both more experienced, we've only become more aware of how painfully limiting RPG Maker's engine structure is.
Here's a hot tip if you ever use 2k3, leave at least 50 blank entries between each item in your Database. Items in the game menu are sorted by how they're listed in the Database, and there's no way to categorize or sort them separately, so if you want to add a new item you'll want the extra space to make sure it's actually in a sensible space when browsing your items in-game. I still cry knowing the Supreme Bastille isn't grouped with the other Supreme items...
the other reason we can't just move items around is because items in chests also refer to this list by number, so changing the item in the database also changes the item given in the chest
Tangeant aside, the technical challenge that stands out for me the most, and wasn't just my and Dismal's shared effort, would be the final doors in the tower. The way they used to work was broken in a way Dismal couldn't fix because the problem was fundamentally too large in scope to be done the way we were used to.
At the time we were both just spamming Conditional Branches everywhere, but this particular challenge involved accounting for every combination of sharing the Grand items, keeping them, and never collecting them. This led to the original event being absurdly long and unmanagable.
Left: the final Red Door Event
Right: the original broken Door Event, archived as a monument for why you must take the lessons Yandere Simulator taught us to heart
Figuring out how to make this work in a smaller and easier to edit package was really challenging for a self-taught beginner, but once I figured it out it changed my brain chemistry forever. I'm obsessed with optimising every part of 2k3 projects now.
No offense taken because I'm not as well versed in this engine as I would like to be. ha ha
I know how to do a lot of things, but the way I do them is probably not the best way. But it works well enough for me most of the time (I try to pretend the whole door thing never happened because that event is a sin against God). It could be better, and I think what I know now would have made a better game.
I'm glad you could fix the things I fumbled around with back in the day because if I went back and looked at what I created I would just burn the computer.
This engine is a pain to work with sometimes, but it's also kind of cozy. Now having the Maniacs Patch in my hands I think we can do some awesome stuff. You will never catch me working on combat balancing ever again though. lol
We all have our own ways of doing things, and yours are perfectly valid. I'll never stop emphasising we both had to endure the pains of the engine to learn it and grow.
The way I do things isn't something that comes naturally to you, and vice versa, so I think it's just a case of us having different styles and expressions when coding. It's only natural, even when working on other projects with people they've said they can't make sense of what I build lol. My next step might be to not make things so hostile to read.
I bring up these things mostly because I think it's awesome to see how much you've improved! Especially now, I remember when we first tried the Maniacs Patch and couldn't understand half the things that it improved. Even now, as I'm getting into some really high concept stuff for my own projects, I'm learning new things about the damn thing, it's nuts.
And yeah, don't you worry about combat balancing lol. If you ever need help with that, I'll bear that burden. 2k3's combat eventing is pure ass.
@sinceredeceit here!!
which district guardian is your favorite and which zone guardian is your favorite (for off or sindec!) and do you have any particular headcannons you're fond of? Thank you!
Heya!!
Choosing faves is always tough because I like so many parts of SinDec, and being so invested in it from a writing side makes it even harder... But I think Enoch might be my fave OFF Guardian in SinDec just because his corruption is conceptually really cool. None of the other guardians become a Dusk because of one reason or another, so seeing the "final" stage of corruption hit somebody so large is a spectacle to behold.
Fave District Guardian I don't think I can decide, but Adam having two versions of his boss fight based on your choice makes him very unique among Arbela's cast. He's also the Guardian I've drawn the most I think, Adam got a lot of cutscene art compared to everyone else from what I remember.
Funny enough though, I don't remember any headcanons. I know in the demo days people were big on AUs, and I particularly remember people being obsessed with turning everyone in SinDec into vampires. Those were a lot of fun to see!
I think at the time I avoided internalising other people's interpretations of events and stuff because I wanted to avoid being influenced by them when brainstorming with Dismal, but I can say at least that the design of Daedalus in the Boss Rush was directly lifted from a design someone drew when trying to visualise Malachi's parasitization if Batter never killed him. Does that count as a headcanon? I mean it basically IS canon, so I don't know how to classify that...
what area are you the most proud of? and what are gave you the most technical challenges?
I lied, I'm sorry, I'm a natural born rambler...
Honestly, The Outside as a whole still holds a special place in my heart. It was the first place I ever started working on the game hands-on, and it was my first time really using RPG Maker in general. Learning how to make panoramic maps, creating puzzles, playing with enemies... being a complete beginner meant I was doing a lot of experimenting.
I remember scratching my head for hours because I desperately wanted to NOT use a Switch for every single boss in the Boss Rush, and tried pulling all sorts of mathematical fuckery to try and pull that off, only to give up and resort to Switches anyway lol. I've gained a lot of knowledge with the engine since then, so if I ever redid that place it'd probably be very structurally different under the hood.
When it comes to technical challenges though, where to start... both Dismal and I encountered a lot of walls just because we were both learning more about the engine as we went and had to learn the limitations of the engine. Even now when we're both more experienced, we've only become more aware of how painfully limiting RPG Maker's engine structure is.
Here's a hot tip if you ever use 2k3, leave at least 50 blank entries between each item in your Database. Items in the game menu are sorted by how they're listed in the Database, and there's no way to categorize or sort them separately, so if you want to add a new item you'll want the extra space to make sure it's actually in a sensible space when browsing your items in-game. I still cry knowing the Supreme Bastille isn't grouped with the other Supreme items...
the other reason we can't just move items around is because items in chests also refer to this list by number, so changing the item in the database also changes the item given in the chest
Tangeant aside, the technical challenge that stands out for me the most, and wasn't just my and Dismal's shared effort, would be the final doors in the tower. The way they used to work was broken in a way Dismal couldn't fix because the problem was fundamentally too large in scope to be done the way we were used to.
At the time we were both just spamming Conditional Branches everywhere, but this particular challenge involved accounting for every combination of sharing the Grand items, keeping them, and never collecting them. This led to the original event being absurdly long and unmanagable.
Left: the final Red Door Event
Right: the original broken Door Event, archived as a monument for why you must take the lessons Yandere Simulator taught us to heart
Figuring out how to make this work in a smaller and easier to edit package was really challenging for a self-taught beginner, but once I figured it out it changed my brain chemistry forever. I'm obsessed with optimising every part of 2k3 projects now.
would you be okay answering all different kinds of sindec questions? Im so curious about the technical sides of things and sindec is an absolute marvel of a fangame
Of course, ask whatever you want! I promise not to give such a long answer this time lol.
Hello, this is atrophiedentropy, I'm doing this out of anon just in case this is something you'd rather not say publicly, but if you're okay with answering this, my one main question is: why was Delilah removed in version 1.1.3? I absolutely understand if you'd rather not talk about it and I'll ask something else instead.
I was honestly expecting that may be one of the questions asked, no worries! I know removing her has been a confusing and controversal decision, so I'm going to be extremely thorough in giving the context behind it under the Read More, but the really short answer is just that her inclusion was rushed, and not well thought out.
The "rushed" part is pretty simple, she was only added into the game maybe 2 weeks before we privately distributed the final playtest build of the game. The entire story had been set in stone at this point, and we were basically just waiting on cutscene art to be finished. Couple that with us putting a strict deadline on ourselves to release the game, and we basically had no time to include her in a more meaningful way.
The "not well thought out" part though... to give a little context, Delilah existed as an OC of mine for at least a year before she was added, and she was already known as that in close friend circles at the time (these circles were also the playtesters).
So one night, while we were all grinding out the last few parts in a call, we got to talking about Delilah and how she'd fit in SinDec's setting and thought it was really cool, and decided to include her in the church as a cameo character. SinDec had a few cameo characters already, so we figured one more wouldn't hurt. We were dead set on releasing SinDec at a certain time, so we just added a map with her in it, and edited Adam's baby picture to include her, and when playtesting began everyone playing seemed happy to see her be included.
People playing the final release did NOT have this context though, and honestly I don't know why we never thought about this, especially with how much lore relevant dialogue I'd written for her because I was suffering from Chronic Delilah Brainrot (and still kinda am).
You can kinda see the contradiction right? Adding in an OC with as much agency and presence as an easter egg, while also overloading her with exposition that makes her feel like she is or will be important, despite never really doing anything. Even during the slaughter of the church she remains untouched, despite her room being easily accessible.
She also doesn't show up in Zaphkiel's ending, where she would be most relevant.
Either way, she was loved by people a lot so she stayed in until much much later when I finally got off my ass and patched some major bugs for 1.1.3, among other things Dismal requested (I was left in charge of maintaining the game in his stead). I'd given SinDec's story a lot of thought by then, including Delilah, and felt her presence somewhat harmed the story in both a continuity sense, and a character sense. To list off a few things
Adam and Delilah are implied to have grown up together, which I find contradictory to Adam's character. If he had anyone to grow up and relate with, I don't think he would've become the man we see.
She also has no presence in the Industry's lab outside of the photo. She couldn't share a room with Adam based on its layout, and no other rooms include her name.
Delilah appears bigger than Adam in her photo with him, implying she's the older sibling, but she's nowhere to be found in the memory segment of the Tower, while child Adam is.
She gives exposition dialogue in the same structure as Jeska. Both being religious figures on top of that makes Delilah's lore dumping redundant beyond it just being her that's saying it.
There was also meant to be the power of another OFF character residing in her too, like Adam, but the acquisition of this power makes no sense from a lore perspective, let alone Zaphkiel's character.
With this, along with me reminiscing about her incredibly late inclusion, I figured it best to remove her. It might have been a good idea to actually shape the world to better fit her into it, but the kind of way I'd want her implemented in the story would require rewriting a lot more than was reasonable for an update that was just meant to address some game breaking bugs.
Though in all honesty, there's a lot Dismal and I have agreed could have been done better writing-wise, so Delilah also has to contend with our urge to redo everything.
I understand I'm kinda alone on this though. When I talked about it with Dismal at the time, he understood my reasoning for removing her but still seemed sad to see her go, so it might just be me being weird about something that doesn't matter to anyone. The ideas she introduces to the lore is still plenty fine, it's just her presence that's too contradictory for me to ignore. Those are the consequences of adding a character to a story right at the end when they hadn't been considered even once, I suppose.
I still left a nod to her though, in Sheol. I intentionally didn't delete the event to her map in that place because I knew it would crash the game if you tried entering. It felt like a fun meta way of alluding to the ghost of her ghost in what was meant to be an intentionally unstable place, but I guess it only served to make people notice her absence more.
Sorry for such a long answer, I've just been thinking about SinDec and Delilah a lot for a long time, and not really had an outlet to just talk about it like this for a while.
Hopefully one day there can be a world where she gets a proper seat in the actual cast of characters in SinDec. Though by this point I'd probably want to go for an actual made-for-SinDec character, and not an OC I made beforehand. We already had Macey for that anyway.
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