I was Ricardian before it was cool

Because sporking bad history is cheaper than therapy.

[perpetuallyflirtyrichard-deacti]

A few days ago we received the sad news that Queen Anne, your beloved consort, had deceased. We, together with our Senate, mourned greatly, for we bear your Majesty so much love and goodwill that, as we rejoice at any prosperous event that befalls you, so are we partakers of your sorrows. We exhort your Majesty, endowed with consummate equanimity and marvellous virtues, of your wisdom and grandeur of mind to bear the disaster calmly and resign yourself to the divine will: and be it your Majesty’s consolation that your consort led so religious and catholic a life, and was so adorned with goodness, prudence and excellent morality, as to leave a name immortal.”

Agostino Barbarigo, future doge of Venice, and the Venetian Senate to Richard III after his wife and queen Anne Neville`s death (via michisaccount)

[grumpyoldricardian]

...

[perpetuallyflirtyrichard-deacti]

It rather startled me too, and I didn`t agree with the guy, but he did have a point in that while it`s the most probable conclusion, we don`t know for certain. Although of course, given what we do know, I find the facts rather do point to Edward`s guilt. And in this case, there is a body, so we do at least know Henry VI was definitely dead.

Yes, I get what you`re saying. But I`m still saying that if he wanted them to disappear but not have anyone know he murdered them, the most logical course of action was disappearing them without murdering them. Shipping them to Burgundy, or Ireland, or Portugal would have been the better choice.

And like I said, I just don`t think the evidence suggests Richard killed them. That`s just my opinion, of course.

Yes, Edward V and Richard of Shrewsbury were the most obvious threats, But when they were gone - dead, or hidden -.Edward of Warwick would have been the next obvious choice. After all, Edward V and his brother were also children. Anyone wanting to put them on the throne would have also put children on the throne, and that someone, who might have been annoyed thinking Richard had had them killed, might have seen Edward of Warwick as the obvious candidate to replace Richard.

I know, this also sounds a bit garbled. Anyway, bottom line: I do not think Richard had his nephews killed, because I do not think it agrees with what little we know of the situation. But we just don`t know, and I understand your point of view, even if I don`t share it.

[grumpyoldricardian]

There’s also at least one contemporary who obviously considered Richard innocent of harming the boys: Elizabeth Woodville.

How else can anyone explain her willingness to place first her daughters and then herself into his care, with only his (public) oath that he would treat them well and arrange good marriages for the girls? Yet that’s precisely what she did. It’s public record.

If there is one thing no one denies about Elizabeth Woodville, it’s that she looked after her family - especially her children. So I invite anyone to explain why such a woman would let her daughters leave the safety of sanctuary and go to live in Richard’s court if she had even a shadow of suspicion that he had murdered their brothers?

[edwardslovelyelizabeth]

Now I didn’t want to meddle but since I was mentioned before…because Elizabeth Woodville didn’t have other choice? She couldn’t live in the sanctuary forever, the girls needed life, education, yes, good marriage opportunities. Her marriage being declared invalid and her children bastards she couldn’t inherit and she didn’t have money of her own. How would she provide for her 5 kids on her own? Richard was young, he was healthy , he was a king! For all she knew his reign could be long and successful and she couldn’t stay in the sanctuary forever. She did care about her children and what’s left of her remaining family that’s why she struck the best possible deal with Richard - he would provide her and her kids with means to live and she will leave the sanctuary because probably having EW with kids still in the sanctuary after all this time was not the best PR for Richard either. And he could use his nieces to make advantageous marriages, to reward his supporters! He married off his own illegitimate daughter to Margaret’s Beaufort half-brother, so even being declared illegitimate the girls had some weight on the marriage market if Richard would be the one making deals.  She would have been incredibly stupid if she remained in the sanctuary or ever publicly accuse Richard of anything while she herself was in a position totally dependable on his good will. Granted there is no public record of Elizabeth Woodville, Elizabeth of York and Cecily of York (i take the eldest daughters since they probably could gasp the situation better) having any knowledge of the fate of the boys. Neither of them ever accused ANYONE of anything.

[grumpyoldricardian]

I think you need to do a bit more research and thinking through your argument.

First off, not having any money of her own? The Woodvilles took the entire treasury of England into sanctuary with them! They took such a quantity of gold and valuable items into sanctuary with them that a section of wall had to be knocked out so they could get it all in fast enough. Look it up, it’s on record.

I don’t see that much wealth running out too quickly, do you? So it obviously wasn’t poverty that drove her to send her daughters to Richard.

Also please realize you are arguing that Elizabeth placed her children in the hands of a man she thought guilty of murdering her young sons, and yet you think she would willingly put her daughters into his court so they wouldn’t remain unmarried? They wouldn’t have many marriage prospects if he killed them, would they?

Better dead than unwed?

It mystifies me that anyone who knows much about Elizabeth Woodville - much less admires her - could believe her capable of handing her daughters over to a man she even suspected might have murdered her sons. A woman that devoted to her family? I’m hardly a fan of Elizabeth but I think that’s a massive insult to her.

She had the means to remain in sanctuary for years if not decades, and Richard would not touch her as long as she was there. She was not in any way dependent on his good will. She chose to place first her daughters, and then herself, into his hands on no guarantee except the strength of his oath to do right by them. She would only do that if she believed him to be an honorable man who would keep his oath.

Elizabeth was not weak, nor was she stupid, and she was renowned for her devotion to her family, especially her children. I do not believe for a moment that she would have allowed her daughters to leave sanctuary and go to Richard’s court unless she was certain beyond doubt that they were safe with him.

Arguing anything else is an insult to her memory and Richard’s.

[mermaidsirennikita]

This just hit me

Can we talk about Cecily Neville, though?  The woman TWQ portrays as a flat bitch who plays favorites and hates on Elizabeth Woodville?

Keep reading

[grumpyoldricardian]

I know I’ve read too much 15th century writing when I’m in the middle of writing something on a completely different subject and have to stop to think of a synonym for “weal” because that word hasn’t been in common usage for centuries but I’m so used to reading it that it’s wormed it way into my vocabulary. xD

[perpetuallyflirtyrichard-deacti]

theamazingcat replied to your post: lizzie278 fragte:Henry VII. Richa…

I can imagine Richard’s afterlife, he’s still crying over the rumor of him and EOY, He just can’t cope with how many people “ship” them.

So my next afterlife will be about the all reacting to that. Henry shakes his head and says he cannot believe it, and Richard murmurs he thinks he`s going to be very, very sick if he hears about the “ship” one more time, while Anne and Elizabeth plan to haunt those shippers.

Who would read it?

[grumpyoldricardian]

[347danger]

(via https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6JczvS1PL4)

Is it true?

[jewels-verne]

So I’m watching the excavation of Richard III. So I mean, I’m not crying or anything. But I am really emotional all the sudden. I know its silly to be so sad, but Richard, for all that the Tudor historians would like to say about him, was a good man. A king, a king whose body ended up in a Church that was not his own, away from his wife, away from his son. A soldier’s death, a soldier’s burial. I just feel melancholic.

[rosamundclifford]

So a while ago I was talking to edwardslovelyelizabeth and scribblesincrayon about Richard III and the Princes. Some of you might know now that I’m not the biggest RIII fan there is and I do think it was very likely that he had his nephews killed (though I know there’s no conclusive evidence…

[lizzie0278-deactivated20170425]

You know, I had thought of that as well. I’m suggesting that Richard did it but if he had produced the bodies, I was thinking that he may have been accused of murder anyway.

On the other hand, by not producing the bodies, he was vulnerable to the same accusations.

Seems like it was a catch 22 of sorts!

[rosamundclifford]

Yeah, but at least this way there’s people defending him. I really doubt they would be if he had produced the bodies. You know, if there were indeed bodies to be produced. I mean, it’s not like anyone is jumping out of their seats to defend Edward IV over Henry VI’s death, right?

[perpetuallyflirtyrichard-deacti]

Yes, but my problem with this is the rumours started up either way. So provided he killed them he had the opportunity of showing them and people saying he had them killed, or not showing them and people saying he had them killed and being open to the threat of pretenders.

I have a few other issues with the idea they died as well, because to me the evidence does not suggest they died, in my opinion, but theamazingcat mentioned most of them in her answer. I`m not saying he wouldn`t have, perhaps, had he thought it necessary. I`m just saying I don`t think the evidence suggest he did it.

Edward of Warwick was debarred from ascending the throne by an attainder, but so was Edward V. So if an attainder could be overturned in the latter case, it could be in the former. So he could have been a threat despite the attainder.

Finally there is the matter that if Richard wanted the boys to disappear but not show their bodies, he could have brought them abroad. It would have been a far easier way to have them disappear, without having to kill them. If they returned to make trouble - at that point, they were pretenders, and could have been dealt with like that.

But that`s just my theory. Until something new turns up, we`ll never know.

P.S. Actually I have recently read a rather interesting essay by someone who does defend Edward IV of killing Henry VI. Basically, we can also not know for certain what happened to him, except that he was conveniently dead.

[rosamundclifford]

Yeah, but a rumour is a rumour. You can’t point fingers and be sure on your accusations if you don’t even know what really happened. I can stand here all day and say I think he did it, but I don’t even know if it was done. But if I had a body, then my accusation might have had a different tone, because I would’ve known they were dead and that they died under his custody. That does put some weight in it and it’s something some other people might be more eager to support, I think.

I suppose the attainder could have been overturned by both of them, but Edward V and Richard of Shrewsbury seemed like the most imminent threat? But also, and feel free to disagree, if there’s gonna be all this shit going on with one child king, then who would want to put another, even younger one, on the throne? Perhaps he might have been a threat to Richard later on, but that also depends on how much support he would have and if Richard did a good job at ruling while he was a child, then it wouldn’t have come to that. He had time on his side, I think.

Am I making any sense? I have this thing in my head, but I can’t seem to put it into words properly.

Can I say I cannot believe that’s someone actually willing to make a whole theory about how Edward didn’t killed Henry VI. Like??? He had his BROTHER killed, I don’t think that’s an extreme conclusion to get to?

[perpetuallyflirtyrichard-deacti]

It rather startled me too, and I didn`t agree with the guy, but he did have a point in that while it`s the most probable conclusion, we don`t know for certain. Although of course, given what we do know, I find the facts rather do point to Edward`s guilt. And in this case, there is a body, so we do at least know Henry VI was definitely dead.

Yes, I get what you`re saying. But I`m still saying that if he wanted them to disappear but not have anyone know he murdered them, the most logical course of action was disappearing them without murdering them. Shipping them to Burgundy, or Ireland, or Portugal would have been the better choice.

And like I said, I just don`t think the evidence suggests Richard killed them. That`s just my opinion, of course.

Yes, Edward V and Richard of Shrewsbury were the most obvious threats, But when they were gone - dead, or hidden -.Edward of Warwick would have been the next obvious choice. After all, Edward V and his brother were also children. Anyone wanting to put them on the throne would have also put children on the throne, and that someone, who might have been annoyed thinking Richard had had them killed, might have seen Edward of Warwick as the obvious candidate to replace Richard.

I know, this also sounds a bit garbled. Anyway, bottom line: I do not think Richard had his nephews killed, because I do not think it agrees with what little we know of the situation. But we just don`t know, and I understand your point of view, even if I don`t share it.

[grumpyoldricardian]

There’s also at least one contemporary who obviously considered Richard innocent of harming the boys: Elizabeth Woodville.

How else can anyone explain her willingness to place first her daughters and then herself into his care, with only his (public) oath that he would treat them well and arrange good marriages for the girls? Yet that’s precisely what she did. It’s public record.

If there is one thing no one denies about Elizabeth Woodville, it’s that she looked after her family - especially her children. So I invite anyone to explain why such a woman would let her daughters leave the safety of sanctuary and go to live in Richard’s court if she had even a shadow of suspicion that he had murdered their brothers?

[perpetuallyflirtyrichard-deacti]

Do you see any similarities between Henry VIII and his grandfather Edward IV? Who do you think was a better person?

Hello!

Yes, there are definitely similarities between Edward IV and Henry VIII. Henry VIII had apparently inherited his grandfather`s looks - both were called the “most handsome prince in Christendom” when they began reigning - and his inclination to chase after women.

In a less superficial way, they also both had a court that completely revolved around them. In a way, all kings do, but these two did it especially much, using their courtiers` antipathy to each other to make them more devoted to them. (As did Elizabeth I.) Both left underage children as heirs, and after their deaths, their courtiers were at each other`s throats more or less immediately, struggling for power. 

However, Edward IV was, in my opinion, obviously the better person. His marriage to Elizabeth Woodville might have been sketchy - even if he did not make a precontact before, there was the matter of the secrecy of the wedding ceremony, which would have made it easier for Edward to argue it was not valid, had he been so inclined - and yet they stayed married, and apparently fairly happy. Edward did not throw a fit that we know of when she bore him three girls before their first son.

He also seems to have had at least a bit of an interest in the country he was reigning. He did not have his brother Richard III`s special regard for the poor, but then perhaps that`s asking a bit much, as Richard was quite unusual with that. In Henry VIII, however, I can see absolutely no regard whatsoever for England. He always seemed to be doing what suited him best, and gave no indication he cared even one bit when his measures threw the whole country into turmoil. Edward also seems to have been a loving father, and Henry VIII was anything but, given how he treated Mary and Elizabeth.

So while there were similarities between the two men, Edward was, in my opinion the decidedly better person.

[grumpyoldricardian]

Also Edward wasn’t afraid to leave his ex-lovers alive.

[perpetuallyflirtyrichard-deacti]

Henry VIII in the afterlife

So here it is. Henry VIII in the afterlife.

I cannot stand the man, and it comes through - which is one reason I really usually don`t like writing him. But I figure since this is written from Anne Neville`s point of view, the dislike is justified.

Anne sometimes calls Henry VIII Henry the younger, so as to distinguish him from his father.

I included a couple of people who would usually not be there, but since there are enough fics about Henry facing his wives in the afterlife, a few others whom he insulted seemed interesting.

Isabella of Aragon, for example, was not happy with things after Arthur`s death, and I imagine she would have spit fire had she learned about Henry VIII`s treatment of her daughter. I also think that Catherine would have learned to depise him after she was dead.

Anne had been in the afterlife for enough time to realise that if things were so quiet as they were now, it meant nothing but trouble. It had to be brewing somewhere already. She looked around, but could find no obvious source. Her son was playing with little George, Richard was talking to John, her niece Elizabeth was laughing about something with her husband and father, Francis was lying on the ground and seemed to be sleeping, even George the everlasting troublemaker seemed to be listening meekly to something his wife, her sister Isabel, was telling him. It should be a happily domestic scene, but it wasn`t, not really. There was nothing wrong with what was happening, but there was a sense of impending doom. Anne could not lay her finger on it, but she had not grown up as the daughter of the most powerful man in the realm of England in vain, nor had she been inept at being duchess and queen. She knew when something was about to happen, and something was. She just did not know what.

She did not have to wait for long, though. She had barely finished her thought when the habitual small noise indicating a new arrival sounded. This was nothing out of the ordinary, but Anne found her eyes drawn to the spot where new arrivals usually appeared. Some of those around her also turned, though not everyone. George and Isabel gave the noise no heed, but Richard looked faintly curious, Edward and Elizabeth turned towards it as well, and Francis sat up, yawning, clearly having been awoken by the noise.

As she was turning around, Anne noticed that they were not the only ones to be drawn towards the noise. She spotted several people whom she knew only by sight, whom she had only got to know in the afterlife. Thomas Cromwell was one of them.

Then she saw John Howard`s great-granddaughter, fiery Anne Boleyn, who had forever endeared herself to Richard by going up to Henry and Elizabeth immediately after she had been executed and telling them just exactly what she thought of the way they had raised their son. She had not allowed either of them to say a word of justification or apology, and by the time she had cut across Henry to say she had spent enough time “listening meekly to men named Henry Tudor“ and did not intend to go on doing it, Richard had been in stitches.

She was wearing a similar look to the one she had had then as she walked now, and Anne did not need to see who else was assembling to understand who had just died and arrived here. Henry Tudor the younger. This could be interesting. Intrigued, Anne went closer as well. She had to see this. Several others seemed to have the same idea, and a crowd was beginning to form around the spot where new arrivals usually stood.

Anne`s first thought when seeing the man now standing there was that he looked exactly liked Edward – who was himself standing in the crowd – but this impression lasted only a moment. Then she saw his eyes – eyes that dominated his whole face despite the fact that they were small, for their expression was truly alarming. Anne had never seen its like before. Whereas Edward was a truly handsome man, any beauty his grandson had inherited was marred by his expression.

Currently, he was staring somewhat stupidly at Anne Boleyn, who was standing in front of him, arms crossed. His eyes shifted past her, only to fall on Catherine Howard, standing next to her cousin in a similar stance, then on Catherine of Aragon, who was staring at him in contempt. He opened his mouth, closed it again, and Anne had to suppress a giggle. It seemed like Henry was learning what it was like to be afraid.

For a while, there was silence, then Anne Boleyn spoke up, in a clear voice. “Look who it is. Henry, by the Grace of God …“ She did not go on, letting her voice trail off at those words, tinged with contempt. Henry the younger opened his mouth again, jaw working, then he said: “What … what … Anne?“ Anne Boleyn turned around to the crowd watching them. “The most brilliant prince in Christendom, my friends“, she announced. “Behold his stunning majesty.“ Again, the last word was full of scorn. However, this seemed to startle the man back into a semblance of understanding, for when he spoke up again, his voice was firmer. “You dare addressing –“

It was the wrongest thing he could say. His second wife walked up to him and despite the fact she had to stretch a bit to reach him, slapped him across the face. “Daring? You speak of daring?“, she spat. “Then let`s do so. How come you dare even looking at me? How come you dare even looking at all of us?“ “I –“, Henry the younger began, but Anne cut across him. “Who do you think you are, daring to treat us all like this? What do you think gives you the right?“

“I am the king!“ The words seemed to burst out of Henry, but it did not escape Anne that his voice was slightly high, making him sound more like a petulant child not wanting to admit being in the wrong. “The rightful king of England –“ At that, a very familar voice began laughing next to Anne, and when she looked around, she saw Francis walk straight towards the recently dead man, fixing him with a glare he reserved especially for all Tudors. “You`re the son of an usurper, boy, that`s all you are. I wouldn`t be so proud of that.“

Anne shook her head fondly to herself. Over sixty years had done nothing to still Francis`s fury at all Tudors, and the fact that the man he was currently addressing was, for all his crimes, innocent of Richard`s death clearly meant nothing to him. “There was nothing rightful about your being king.“

Henry stared at him, clearly overwhelmed and outraged at his treatment, but before he could say anything about it, his attention was distracted by another woman, who was walking through the crowd with purpose, inspiring awe as she went. Anne found her gaze drawn to her as well as she came closer. Isabella of Castille, exuding quiet authority. Light-haired and full of of dignity, she marched straight up to Henry, wordlessly and gracefully gestured for Francis to step out of the way, which he obligingly did, and then, like Anne Boleyn had done earlier, slapped Henry right in the face. “Do you have anything to say in your defence?“, she asked coldly. “Speak now if you think that there is anything that would justify your behaviour to my daughter and my granddaughter.“

“I – I – I“, Henry stuttered, clearly not able to cope with the situation he found himself in. Isabella looked him up and down. “Not good enough“, she snarled. “You will stay away from her now. If I see you come any closer to her than you are now, I promise you you will regret it. I should have never allowed my poor daughter to marry into your family, much less you.“

“I was a great king“, Henry exclaimed after a short moment. His voice was now so high this insistence sounded absolutely absurd, but there was an intake of breath at his words nonetheless. Isabella gave him a look full of contempt, then turned away. Anne saw Edward look at his grandson in sheerest astonishment, saw Henry the father shake his head as if he could not believe his ears. But it was Richard who spoke up.

“Were you?“ His voice was mocking. “What did you do then? Insult foreign powers because you wanted a divorce? Destroy priceless artifacts with your reformation? Destroy monastries and convents, turning countless men and women into the streets? Bankrupted the country?“ He gave a laugh, and Anne thought he actually seemed quite amused. Presumably he was. He always took pleasure in mocking the Tudors, and Henry the younger gave him plenty of possibilities.

The man so addressed did not take very kindly to it, though. Looking at Richard, he seemed so decide that he was no threat for him, for he took some steps closer. “You have no idea of kingship, have you, churl? I can –“ Then he took a step too close. Had it been anyone else, Anne would have warned them, but because she did not feel the slightest sympathy for Henry, she simply stepped back and said nothing. Henry raised his hand, doubtlessly to box Richard around the ears, but he did not get around to doing so. Without any warning, without so much as flinching, Richard kicked against his shin, and while the man was still gasping for breath in shock, pulled up his knee.

Anne Boleyn and Catherine Howard both gave a cheer when Henry doubled up – pain was extremely fleeting in the afterlife, but the symbolism remained the same – and Richard took him by the collar, despite the fact he was a head smaller than him. “Self-involved braggarts like you die first in battles“, he snarled. “And you will find that I did more in two years of kingship than you ever did.“ With that, he pushed Henry from him. “And now get out of my sight.“

Henry stepped away from him, giving him quite a frightened look, much to the amusement of all the onlookers. Anne wondered what Elizabeth thought of seeing her son again, but she did not have the time to go and ask. Before everyone had had the time to recover from the hilarity caused by Henry`s reaction to Richard, another person entered the crowd, a man, walking slowly and sedately towards the disgraced king.

Anne looked at the man. He was almost as tall as Henry, dark-haired, dark-bearded and quite handsome, in a strict and old-fashioned kind of way. He seemed slightly familar, but Anne could not place him. Turning around to Richard, who was looking rather pleased with himself and seemed to have hardly noticed the new arrival, she asked: “Do you know who that is?“ Richard threw the man a look, then burst out laughing. “Brilliant!“, he gasped. “Brilliant! – That, my dearest love, is none other than Thomas Becket himself, who does not seem to have taken kindly to his grave being disturbed. Oh, this is going to be good.“

Anne took a sharp breath. Thomas Becket was a man of legend, and he was certainly not afraid of any king. She turned her attention back to him, waited for him to explode, to put Henry in his place, but the man did nothing of the sort. He simply fixed Henry with a stare so cold it made even the self-possessed king appear smaller and smaller.

Francis giggled next to her. “I haven`t had so much fun for a long time“, he confided cheerily. “Thomas Becket`s judgemental stare could make armies quail. What a joy it is to see a Tudor subjected to it. Do you think he will say something, or will he simply look until the bastard crumbles under his stare?“ “He`ll speak“, Anne said. “But only after he has worn him down by staring.“

This turned out to be right. After several moments during which the archbishop stared at the king under the amused eyes of everyone else, he said, in a dangerously quiet voice: “Did you have fun defiling graves? I shall hope so, for it has to be worth the price you pay for it.“

“What – price – you – traitor –“ The appearance of Becket seemed to have rendered Henry incoherent once more, and he had gone quite pale. “You – traitor – to –“

“SHUT UP!“

The roar made Anne flinch, and the whole crowd spun around to find a red-headed man marching directly at Henry. “Do you know who I am, boy?“, he asked. Henry shook his head mutely. “Well, I`ll tell you. I am King Henry of England, second of that name since the conquest. And do you know what else I am? A CAPABLE ADULT! I don`t need a brat like you telling me I was not able to recognise a traitor. When I say Thomas was not a traitor when he died, it means he was not a traitor when he died. Nothing you say and do will change this. Are we understood, boy?“

Again, Henry nodded rather meekly, and the older Henry gave him a grim grin. “There are a few other issues I`d like to address with you“, he said. “We`ll be speaking for a while, you and I. And Thomas`ll be present, just so you know.“

Francis was howling with laughter when Henry made a small noise that could both signify fright as well as agreement, and he was not the only one. Anne spotted George, doubled over with laughter, Edward suppressing a grin, and even Margaret Beauford looking on with approval. She had been speaking a lot about how she wished someone would put the fear of God into her grandson.

They all watched a while as Henry the second berated Henry the eighth, then Anne Boleyn turned around. “Well, my friends, it seems like the party is over“, she announced. “We are leaving him in capable hands.“

[thecatsaesthetics]

I'm disabled. It's not an insult or a character flaw. Why the hell would you talk about it being "insulting" to be labeled that way? THAT'S insulting. Also, some people do find that scoliosis is a disability for them.

I’m not saying you can’t view it as a disability, but Richard III personally would have found it insulting if people were labeling him disabled, because he wouldn’t have considered it that. I’m not saying it’s insulting I’m saying Richard III probably would have thought so. 

[perpetuallyflirtyrichard-deacti]

But why the hell modern-day Ricardians cannot cope, please don`t ask me. It`s like “oh one factor of the stories later spread about him was clearly only a severe exaggeration, not completely untrue, everything else must also be true”. WTF?! And then of course some hostile writers today still harp on about it, as if the fact Richard had scoliosis says anything more about him than that he had scoliosis. 

And yes, they found it was late-onset scoliosis - that is, it developed from the time he was about ten. perhaps a bit older. Apparently it is possible it was caused by a fall, but it can also have simply developed like that.

[grumpyoldricardian]

You seem to have made a typo here - I’m sure you meant ANTI-Ricardian writers cannot cope.

The story going around for centuries, courtesy of the Tudors and finalized by Shakespeare, was that Richard was a hunchback. That is nothing even close to scoliosis. So yes, that story was a major exaggeration.

As for “everything else must also be true”, Ricardians have been saying for centuries that the “stories later spread about him” are mostly made up whole cloth. The fact that one story was a massive exaggeration rather than made up whole cloth doesn’t make the other Tudor propaganda any less false.

So frankly I hope that was a mistype on your part, or I have to wonder exactly what Ricardians you’re generalizing about so cavalierly.

[perpetuallyflirtyrichard-deacti]

Whoops. I sometimes type faster than I think. Yes, of course. What I meant with that passage is that this is a typical argument of people like Alison Weir, who is about as anti-Ricardian as it is possible to get.

[grumpyoldricardian]

Thank you for clearing that up.

[inkandcayenne]

Tell me scenarios that would make Richard III make his annoyed face

[scribblesincrayon]

Someone just told Richard he’s distantly related to Benedict Cumberbatch.

[inkandcayenne]

[grumpyoldricardian]

I’ve said this before, but I’ll say it again. Anyone who titters over Philippa Langley needs to sit the hell down and learn some respect.

Let me explain a thing to some little charmers around here.

Philippa Langley has been involved in the Richard III Society for decades. Literally. I first encountered her name when I became a Ricardian in the late 80s, before a lot of you were born. That means over half her life has been dedicated to clearing King Richard’s name and stamping out Tudor propoganda including, but not limited to, the longstanding claim (including in the Shakespeare play), that Richard was a hunchback. Hunchback is not even close to the same as scoliosis, and in fact, before his body was found, the only ones even suggesting scoliosis as a possibility were Ricardians. So some of these people trashing on Ricardians need to get their facts straight.

But I digress.

Philippa Langley has spent over half her life dedicated to the Richard III Society and the Ricardian cause. She, along with John Ashdown-Hill, is the reason that dig even happened. She gathered funds - mostly donations from members of the Richard III Society -  and persuaded the University of Leicester to get involved (because said university demanded the Society front some of the money before they would even start the dig).

Before you snicker about Philippa crying over King Richard’s bones being found, just remember that decades of her life and an incredible amount of effort went into making that happen, and I don’t doubt a fair amount of her money did too. Let’s see any of you put that much of yourself, that much time, effort, thought, and dedication into ANYTHING, and see if you wouldn’t cry when something finally came of it. Especially when that “something” results in a measure of justice for a long-maligned human being and oh yes also a decent burial for him, 530 years after he should have gotten one.

That dig would never have happened if people like Philippa and John hadn’t spearheaded the effort, and thousands of members of the Richard III Society opened their wallets to help. And all this before one semi-historical performance by Aneurin Barnard made it cool to like Richard III. 

So to these little armchair “non-militant” (ha) Ricardians who didn’t know jack about the Ricardian cause before 2012 and only got interested AFTER the king’s body was finally found: learn some respect. Those people you’re making snide comments about are the people who got involved in this cause long before the discovery of the body and are the reason it was discovered at all.

[grumpyoldricardian]

"Non-militant" Ricardians

Y'know what’s really bugging me lately?

People calling themselves “non-militant Ricardians”. It’s like they don’t even realize how insulting that is, the way it implies that all normal Ricardians are militant.

Let me tell you a thing. Most of you have just discovered Richard through Aneurin Barnard being all adorable in The White Queen. Others of you might have gotten interested after they found the king’s skeleton. And all of that is fine. Being new doesn’t make you less valid as a Ricardian.

BUT

You need to remember that this struggle has been going on for a very long time. Take a look at how long the Richard III Society has been around. For decades Ricardians have been earnestly trying to reverse the damage of Tudor propaganda; patiently explaining to one person or a few people at a time that no, there’s no proof he killed the princes, he wasn’t a hunchback, and Shakespeare is not history k? And we did it without a cute Welshman playing Richard as a romantic hero and without suddenly-enlightened reporters finally noticing that hey, maybe that stuff we were taught wasn’t quite right.

Ricardians have been doing this for decades. Centuries, in fact. Jane Austen was a Ricardian.

Don’t forget that King Richard’s body was finally found after over five centuries because of Ricardians pushing for that dig and making it happen. John Ashdown-Hill traced the king’s descendants until he found someone alive today who has the same mitochondrial DNA as King Richard, and he dug through archives and combed over centuries-old maps and documents to find the location of Greyfriars. Philippa Langley gathered funds - mostly donations from members of the Richard III Society -  and persuaded the University of Leicester to get involved. John and Philippa are both prominent members of the Richard III Society. Before you snicker about Philippa crying over King Richard’s bones being found, just remember that years of her life and an incredible amount of effort went into making that happen.

All that was long before The White Queen converted hordes of fangirls into Richanne shippers, back when Ricardians were a relatively small but dedicated group bound by desire for justice for a king too long maligned.

For over five hundred years loyalty has bound us. And if we’re tired and sometimes a little cranky from the ongoing struggle, it doesn’t make you bright-eyed newbies better people. It just means you’re fresh to the fight that others been slogging along with for a very long time.

[thecatsaesthetics]

I'm disabled. It's not an insult or a character flaw. Why the hell would you talk about it being "insulting" to be labeled that way? THAT'S insulting. Also, some people do find that scoliosis is a disability for them.

I’m not saying you can’t view it as a disability, but Richard III personally would have found it insulting if people were labeling him disabled, because he wouldn’t have considered it that. I’m not saying it’s insulting I’m saying Richard III probably would have thought so. 

[perpetuallyflirtyrichard-deacti]

But why the hell modern-day Ricardians cannot cope, please don`t ask me. It`s like “oh one factor of the stories later spread about him was clearly only a severe exaggeration, not completely untrue, everything else must also be true”. WTF?! And then of course some hostile writers today still harp on about it, as if the fact Richard had scoliosis says anything more about him than that he had scoliosis. 

And yes, they found it was late-onset scoliosis - that is, it developed from the time he was about ten. perhaps a bit older. Apparently it is possible it was caused by a fall, but it can also have simply developed like that.

[grumpyoldricardian]

You seem to have made a typo here - I’m sure you meant ANTI-Ricardian writers cannot cope.

The story going around for centuries, courtesy of the Tudors and finalized by Shakespeare, was that Richard was a hunchback. That is nothing even close to scoliosis. So yes, that story was a major exaggeration.

As for “everything else must also be true”, Ricardians have been saying for centuries that the “stories later spread about him” are mostly made up whole cloth. The fact that one story was a massive exaggeration rather than made up whole cloth doesn’t make the other Tudor propaganda any less false.

So frankly I hope that was a mistype on your part, or I have to wonder exactly what Ricardians you’re generalizing about so cavalierly.

[grumpyoldricardian]

Francis Viscount Lovell resources

I’d been meaning to ask you, and here is a perfect opportunity- what are your sources for the information you have on Viscount Lovell? I did a fair amount of research myself and found disappointingly little about him. Are these recent discoveries?

michisaccount:

I don`t think so. I just searched literally every book I could find about Richard III and Henry VII and the Wars of the Roses in general for information on him, including all I could find in the university library, and I followed up on the sources given in them. I read everything all the contemporary sources I could find say about him, I read Vergil, and Hall, and Holinshed, and highlighted every passage where Francis Lovell was mentioned, and then compared them with each other, and with the earlier contemporary sources. I`ve read his entry in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography and followed up on the sources given there. I searched for his father and his uncle in accounts of the early phase of the Wars of the Roses, and for his sisters and their husbands in accounts of later times.

In other words, I read just about everything I could get my hands on that so much as mentioned his name.

Recently I wrote a rather long term paper about him which I worked on for quite a while, and if you want I can send you the list of the sources I used for that. It`s of course only a start - I naturally only quote what the secondary literatures say, not where they got their information for their conclusions from - but it`s better than nothing.

And I still find my knowledge about this man to be sadly lacking, to be honest. I mean, it`s still not particularly much. I don`t even know his birthday or even birthyear for certain. But I did spent several months chasing after every scrap of knowledge - actually, I still am. He`s fascinating, for all that we know so little. And I really hope we`ll find more about him sometime soon.

[grumpyoldricardian]

michisaccount

(moved to a new thread since it has gone off-topic)

That list of sources would be great, yes. I have a modest Ricardian library, but I’m sure I university library would have much more. Thanks!

Also, have you read that bio that was published in the last few years? I looked into pre-ordering it, but it was way out of my budget even before the overseas shipping. D: