Irrus Domnann

In spite of the name, actually a Fateposting blog.

[knightwithahundredkings]

I really recommend the Táin Bó Cúailnge to anyone looking to get into medieval literature because it's a great story, brilliant poetry (I read the Carson translation, and the way he translates the roscada sections are beautiful) and the backbone of the Ulster Cycle, but it's also just really fucking funny. It has a very slapstick yet dry sense of humor that provides just enough comic relief to make the dramatic moments of the story even more impactful. Genuinely I laugh out loud every few pages. Go read it.

[knightwithahundredkings]

You can't make this shit up

[irrusdomnann]

I cannot stress enough how fucking funny the Táin is.

There's like two serious dramatic duels in it and the rest of them are just Cú Chulainn going through opponents like Saitama in One Punch Man.

My favorite is the guy he doesn't even register is trying to kill him until Laeg tells him "he's chucking spears at you you idiot!!" at which point Cú Chulainn kills him by caving his face in with a thrown apple.

There's a bit where a guy refuses to duel him because he's beardless so he has his charioteer make him a grass-and-leaves beard!! This fucking gremlin!!!

[irrusdomnann]

Do you have a critical assessment of the Type Moon writers’ biases in adapting the Mahabharata? As someone who’s only acquainted with it through FGO, I always got the impression that, while not overly picking sides regarding the conflict, Type Moon displays a preference for the Kauravas. I’m wondering if you have any opinions regarding their handling of the epic in general.

Kinda, yeah.

The thing is that I don't mind it as much personally because anyone who knows me knows that I like the Mahabharata best in the parts where it's trying to make a case for this succession crisis being, if not a completely 'grey' conflict (Duryodhana is objectively an awful human being), then at the very least a conflict in which nobody comes out the other side smelling like roses.

If anything I'd say the bigger 'bias' is that they end up pulling a lot from Indonesian adaptations of the Mahabharata (just look at the Turas Realta manga) which already displays more of a pro-Kaurava sentiment, so that might be why.

Generally I'd say it's extremely hit or miss. I think the mainline Type-Moon projects where both the Pandavas and Kauravas appear (FGO, Extella) are their weakest showings because they can't actually generate a meaningful amount of friction between these characters since they're supposed to be on the "same team," and while I appreciate what they tried to do with Arjuna in his interludes, I think it was too little too late as far as salvaging him as a character. Likewise, I think the decision to write Krishna out of the Mahabharata's biggest moral crisis is profoundly baffling.

But I also think the idea that they're getting whitewashed completely is taking it too far the other direction. Duryodhana is a self-centered egotistical dickhead. Ashwatthama's entire character is essentially a redemption arc for doing war crimes. You can make the case for Karna, and I do think his post-FGO depiction definitely hasn't done him any favors there, but that's maybe getting a little deep into a metapost about how I read the Karna-Arjuna dynamic and how I deeply wish it would work once.

That dynamic would be so good if it was good, you know?

[irrusdomnann]

What exactly do you consider yourself, given your knowledge about folklore and religion? I’m tempted to say cultural anthropologist, but I’m unsure.

Semi-well informed amateur with a humanities background. I hate putting on airs.

My professional credentials are all unrelated to this.

[irrusdomnann]

I like it when names are meaningful or when they’re just reflective of a particular characteristic of the person or object. Like Ashvatthama’s name coming from his wailing as a baby sounding like that of a divine horse, or Ghatotkacha’s name meaning “pot-head” because he was born with male pattern baldness. Just to close out this point, I learned of the Zulu beast, the Usilosimapundu (“the rugose/nodulated beast”), which is associated with Umkxakaza-wakogingqwayo, whose name means “Rattler of weapons of the place of the rolling of the slain.”

The point of this diatribe is to ask: what’s your favorite name from folklore or religion that is either meaningful or representative of a character’s traits?

Is it cheating to say "Cú Chulainn"?

I've talked about this before but medieval Irish has two different words for "Dog." You have the general word for 'canine,' the one that's used for a dog that you might have as a house pet or a working dog in a medieval context. Things like sheepdogs and whatnot. That word is Fail, perhaps most strongly mythologically connected to Fail-Inis, Lugh's dog.

And then there's the word for "dog that has been trained to rip the face off of anyone it does not recognize." These are the dogs you train to guard a place or to mistrust strangers, the ones you don't leave out at night without a leash. That one's Cú, obviously.

But he also kinda takes that name because he's taking on the symbolic role.

I think Durga clinches it considering her name can be translated as "You Cannot Go Beyond Her."

[irrusdomnann]

I’ve seen Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, and Norse myth be compared on the basis of the three faiths all having two notable sets of deities. The Ahuras and Amesha Spentas in opposition to the Daevas, the Devas in contrast to the Asuras, and the Aesir as foils to the Vanir. But when we compare these groups, are we simplifying them to make the comparison easier? I understand that there are Proto-Indo-European roots, but I’d assume that cut-and-dry comparisons ignore the complexities of these faiths. Like arranging evidence in a manner that evokes a pattern far stronger than it would without.

Well for one thing we can't really speak to Æsir faith at all, we know very little to nothing about their religious practices and how the Æsir-Vanir divide fit into it.

Like there's definitely a simplification going on and a special simplification going on with the Æsir-Vanir, who had a war in the past and got the fuck over themselves vs. the endemic low-level conflict between the Asura and Devas and the somewhat existential conflict between the Yazata ('Ahura' refers to a trio of deities rather than all the divinities of Zoroastrianism) and the Daeva.

But the context for each is obviously different, it's just pattern recognition saying "oh, so mythologies, constructed by human beings, often contain a divine in-group and a divine out-group" and assuming this is a great chain rather than a pattern of human behavior that reflects the culture writing the stories.

[irrusdomnann]

I've been wondering something: In both Greek and Hindu mythology, the respective kings of the gods are Gods of Lightning, while the Gods of the Sun aren't placed into as central a role. I suppose that I'm confused by this because, from what I understand, lightning isn't a phenomenon that occurs commonly, while the sun is omnipresent in our lives.

Do you think there's a reason why those pantheons placed the Gods of Lightning above the Gods of the Sun?

I think this is a false start because:

In Vedic Hinduism (the one where Indra is King of the Gods and the title is in any way meaningful) Indra has no association with lightning or storms, he's purely a warrior-king, positioned as the King At War to Varuna's King At Peace.

In Puranic Hinduism where he is more associated with storms, he's also way less important ('King of the Gods' is 'Middle Management').

Zeus and Puranic Indra are both also bringers of rain, which is far more important in the grand scheme of things than their propensity for thunderbolts and lightning. We just have a selection bias because when we in the present tell stories about these gods we tend to privilege their thunder-y-ness.

And I'm not really interested in doing back-of-the-napkin analysis about it because I don't think a real answer's possible.

[irrusdomnann]

I'm not a fan of using "indigenous" in an incredibly broad sense for this ask, but I'm going to use it here to give you a wider scope of choices you can select:

Is there a particular story or myth from an indigenous culture, taking Sami scholar Troy Storfjell's statement on indigeneity into account, that you like? An overlooked one is always nice to hear.

If you go that broadly, I'd say a lot of early Welsh Arthurian stories (like Culhwch and Olwen) seem to count. Arthur-as-defender as opposed to Arthur-as-ideal-king.

If we look outside of that and look at indigenous as a category I do kind of come up short - a lot of what I've read of, say, Mexica mythology is other people writing about Mexica mythology because a lot of primary sources simply aren't translated (and I've had a hard time finding ones that are), but the scholarship is.

[kaibutsushidousha]

Do you know all the weapons Durga/Kali uses and the all the gods that helped made Durga? I know some of them like Shiva’s spear and Vishnu wheel.

I think Hinduism questions are better asked to @irrusdomnann, but sure I can make an attempt.

[irrusdomnann]

Well heck I'll give it a go:

I think our first key should be to look at the Devi Mahatmyam and its hymn to Kali, because I assume someone involved in the process of making her has read it:

I revere Mahākālī, who holds in her hands the sword, discus, mace, arrow, bow, iron club, spear, sling, human head, and conch

Note that the translation does not refer to vajra when it says "mace" - I think it's supposed to be Vishnu's mace, though it would be rad if it was Saraswati's.

The snake is probably Vasuki - Durga has it too, and uses it as a neck ornament, which suggests to me that it's evoking Vasuki serving as Shiva's neck ornament.

Likewise I think the o r b is meant to be Pashupata rather than the Sun - Surya isn't really depicted with weapons very often, he's more of a scholar-king than a warrior-king. Likewise, my argument is that she's not depicted with a bow, and so I think the Pashupata is standing in for Shiva's bow.

Otherwise I think it's broadly on point - it's not often that specific weapons wielded by Durga are depicted as being from a specific god so much as just generally representative of her having All Of Them.

Finally I think the lotus and bell are both supposed to be symbols of Lakshmi - while the lotus image fits with a bunch of gods, both the lotus and the bell are associated with Lakshmi in the Devi Mahatmyam. Likewise, the water pots may be hers too:

 I revere Mahālakṣmī, who holds in her hands the prayer beads, ax, mace, arrow, thunderbolt, lotus, bow, waterpot, staff, lance, sword, shield, conch, bell, wine cup, trident, noose, and the discus Sudarśana; whose complexion is radiant like coral; who is seated on a lotus; and who is the destroyer of Mahiṣāsura.

[kaibutsushidousha]

How does the Scathach-Skadi thing work exactly?

I get that the reason is because there are some aspects of Scathach that got blended in with Skadi which is why this happens at all, and that Skadi is the predominant personality with only slight influence from Scathach.

But is Skadi just like an aspect of Scathach then and they’re the same person (with the Skadi personality taking over in LB2 due to the Norse area) or is Skadi just possessing Scathach kinda? And if so for the latter, why did she need to possess Scathach instead of just using her own body?

Skadi was an ice giant living with the gods of Asgard, until Ragnarok happened. She died in the Pan-Human Ragnarok like everyone else, but in the Lostbelt Ragnarok, the fire giant were going way offhand and the divergences of the battle (mainly Surtr killing Fenrir) caused Odin to survive longer.

He didn't actually made out with Surtr's crazy god-slaying spree alive, but he used his extra time to mix Skadi with Scathach, allowing her go unnoticed during Surtr's massacre and ultimately become the Lostbelt's last surviving god.

"Why Odin saved only Skadi?" is a core question of her interlude and the answer she discovers there is that he had feelings for her and that he used his multi-dimensional eye to see a future where she would be enjoying herself in Chaldea, so he worked to make that smile happen (she gets reasonably pissed at the answer and proceeds to express her resentment towards Odin at her every appearance after this, in contrast to grateful attitude she used to have at stories released before her interlude).

"Why Scathach specifically for Skadi's safe retreat?" Allegedly, they were easier to conflate because they had a common ancestor. Who is this referring to is something probably only Sakurai and Barbara G. Walker know.

[irrusdomnann]

For those uninitiated in the greater mysteries of Walkerposting:

The answer to this (if you believe Barbara Walker's game of word salad mythography) is that their common ancestor is Kali by way of Cailleach.

[kaibutsushidousha]

Your degree thesis sounds very interesting, it reminds me to an investigación about a fanfic that was once told on an internet forum, only to become something totally different just a few years after it came out due to word of mouth on the forums.

What are some myths invented by Japanese translations?

I haven't actually started my research (the university's term starts in April), so I can only offer you here the examples I know from the top of my head. I'd really appreciate it if you helped expand this list if you happen to know some.

Brionac, a Japanese original name for Lugh's spear (found in Shin Megami Tensei, Fate, Wild Arms, and Yugioh)

Zababa as a goddess instead of a male god (found in Symphogear)

The Ephemeral Fruit as an anti-wish granter (found in Fate)

Almace, Turpin's sword, being a katana (found in Yugioh)

Raikouben, a paope original to Anno Tsutomu's version of the Investiture of the Gods (found in Houshin Engi, Bleach, and Saihate no Solte)

The mystic bow Ichaival (found in Fire Emblem and Symphogear)

Huge list of stuff original to Anno Tsutomu's Investiture, actually (found in Houshin Engi)

A lot of Barbara Walker material, which isn't Japanese-original but is still currently planned to get a section in the paper (found in Shin Megami Tensei and Fate)

Conflation between Robigus and the Red Knight (found in Fire Emblem and Fate)

Female Archangel Gabriel (found in way too many things, with No Game No Life and Gabriel Dropout being the first examples to come to mind today)

[irrusdomnann]

I don't know if it's relevant to your thesis, but Dullahan being so popular is an interesting confluence of events.

William Butler Yeats probably steals the dullahan idea from some guy who made them up.

William Butler Yeats' material becomes popular in Japan as a way to teach people English.

Yeats' material includes the dullahan, they find their way into a bunch of Japanese pop culture.

[irrusdomnann]

After five years of playing this godforsaken game I finally have two copies of My Boy.

[irrusdomnann]

I cannot begin to tell you how much it pains me that the guy who cares the most about research out of the Type-Moon writer's room is also the guy who will burn down the kitchen every time he tries to cook.

[kaibutsushidousha]

If a franchise like megami tensei(atlus stuff) can get away with depicting Krishna(and some other people that are controversial to depict), TM can also do that and put him in if they'll feel like it, but also fate and megaten are different in core so idk

Nasu probably can "get away with it" too, but I don't think he'd want to take the risk.

[irrusdomnann]

It doesn't feel at all like a "get away with it" or taking risks thing, fundamentally it just feels like Type-Moon isn't interested in Krishna as a character.

After all, Rama is, if anything, even more of a controversial figure given his outsized influence on contemporary Indian religion and the many kinda heinous things being done in his name.

It feels more like Nasu's allergy to orthodoxy - playing Krishna as the cunning mastermind and center of gravity of the Kurukshetra War is the common interpretation of the text, and Nasu is generally allergic to doing what everyone else has already done. So in the Type-Moon rendition, Krishna is a much more marginal figure because writing him out of the story of the Mahabharata in such a way is kind of novel.

[irrusdomnann]

You know I liked his characterization in the event okay but putting in Indra as the Grand Lancer boss battle is some "please clap" bum shit.

[irrusdomnann]

Thoughts on the Indra servant in fgo?

Absolute cinema.

[irrusdomnann]

Who are your favorite Irish heroes? Also Karna is my blorbo

I mean obligatory shoutouts to Cú Chulainn aside, I'm also a big fan of his cousin, foster brother and perpetual number two Conall Cernach.

Oisín is pretty cool.

[irrusdomnann]

Here's a joke, I guess. There's a character I wrote who's an ex-Muslim assassin, one of the best (at one maybe the best) to ever do it, and who's called Hassan-i-Sabbah or Hassan as a result. The punchline? He thinks it's stupid because he's an Indonesian Sunni Muslim who isn't even practicing at this point, while the Assassins were extremely devout Persian Shia Muslims who opposed the Sunni Seljuk Empire (though they attempted to integrate with their Sunni peers at one point in their history), which means that he not only has that nickname in spite of having no connection to the order, but that he has that nickname in spite of being someone who the original Assassins may have opposed under the right circumstances. Does that make sense? How inaccurate is it?

As someone who is not:

Indonesian

Any kind of Muslim denomination.

That familiar with the history of Muslim secterian conflicts or the history of the Hashashin.

I have no fucking idea bro and I'd really like you to stop sending me these, it's kind of cringe.