punishment perhaps,

-- for my sweet dreams.

[copticprayer]

助菊みよ吉 | ※ permission to upload was granted by original artist

[klkuhiko]

tbh as a sgrs fan the only thing more disheartening than the shinnosuke reveal is the sheer number of people who are denying it rn. i understand feeling cheated, feeling viscerally repulsed by it (i’d been suspecting the reveal, but the confirmation hit me like a sack of bricks too) but i’m baffled @ everyone’s careless dismissal - saying it couldn’t have happened, that kiku’s character doesn’t leave room for such an act, or even worse - claiming that it doesn’t make sense for the story, when in fact this literally rakugo’s theme/thesis taken to its most extreme and formulaic end. kiku being shinnosuke’s father speaks more to kiku and sukeroku’s relationship, and their treatment of women, than it does anything else

kumota haruko (the mangaka) prefaces the bonus chapter by emphasizing how critical - critical - this chapter is in understanding rakugo, and that it is the audience’s job to take a discerning eye to what is being implied. in the chapter the yakuza boss, oyabun, tells kiku that konatsu is off-limits for someone like him, out of respect for kiku as an great artist and a friend; we see kiku confront sukeroku, revealing that konatsu was wildly in love with him, he tells sukeroku that when konatsu gets older, he plans on approaching her not as “sukeroku’s child, but as another human being”. many years later, kiku thanks oyabun, who has agreed to posture as shinnosuke’s father for kiku’s sake, for doing him a favor he could never repay. shinnosuke shares kikuhiko’s physical likeness, his rakugo is telling (close readers understand how important the rakugo is in conveying hidden meaning when dialogue elects to be ambiguous), kiku’s frantic lament to sukeroku about “what he did to his daughter”, that both sukeroku and kikuhiko’s children appear with them in heaven… knowing that there are people plugging their ears, pounding sand in denial, speaks to me of someone who is desperately invested in preserving the integrity of a hyperidealized male character (”b-b-but [x] would never do that, he is [such a good guy/my friend/a genius!!]”) than they are interrogating and thinking critically about what this means in context of sgrs’ message and cultural narrative. 

sgrs’ tragedy is muted and understated, its deeply woven into the fabric of the apologue structure, one that labors the oppressive dominion of generational pedigree, and the power of lineage - the yakumo name stays inside the family, the 7th generation took the name from his father, and outsiders (like sukeroku, or women) are essentially helpless. there’s tragedy in kiku and sukeroku’s romantic relationship - shinnosuke is kiku’s and sukeroku’s lovechild, yes, their love borne through rakugo, but he comes at the exploitation of two women, miyokichi and konatsu, i.e “society’s so homophobic that women have to be used as mediators/incubators to consummate this everlasting love between these two men.” say what you want about the message - kumota certainly could have explored more novel ways to say the same thing, imo, but it’s not surprising, and is exactly what this show has been trying to say all along

idk there is something very dangerous in framing unhealthy power imbalances or traumatic sexual relationships as “unthinkable” and “preposterous” - tbh this feeds into to the standard narrative that keeps victims of these relationships silent because their experiences are so heavily “other-ed”, whereby the perpetrators are often family members, well-liked men (gay and straight), prolific men, sympathetic men who are otherwise humanized. someone like kiku. it’s just really transparent that in this totally fictional instance, ppl’s immediate gut reaction is to deny (as always) rather than examine

[sakurazawamidori]

while this post brings a really interesting interpretation to the table there are some points i disagree with and i’d like to discuss (i hope you won’t mind op)

Keep reading

[klkuhiko]

i welcome discussion. all of the points you raise are fair; i see them and raise you counterpoints:

i think there’s a number of details that are being conveniently glossed over here, so i’m going to tackle them piecemeal by piecemeal:

the problem with this reveal […] is that it doesn’t fit with the rest of a season that was thematically so centered on kiku’s grief, his slow healing process, and spent so much time on showing how these characters that came from such a dysfunctional and messy background could ultimately form a loving family unit and reconcile.

i agree that show turned on kiku’s expressions (rather, repressions) of grief - but it is equally as important to emphasize his concomitant guilt, motivated primarily by the selfish and self-motivated ways kiku conducted himself with regards to sukeroku, miyokichi, and konatsu. kiku discusses his selfishness extensively in season 1 - sukeroku is inexorably tangled up in kiku’s desires so much that sukeroku loses all subjectivity and is reduced to an ‘muse/icon/literal legendstory’ through which kiku helms his perverse indulgent world of rakugo, via & through him. it is kiku’s selfishness that colors his treatment of konatsu (i don’t like when people reduce the kiku/konatsu dynamic as simply “messy” as if they had to suffer a couple of squabbles here and there; kiku patently neglected her as a child, threw papers in her face, denied her the chance to pursue rakugo despite his bearing witness to sukeroku’s disadvantages re: class, denied her the opportunity to even study or keep her father’s notes and mementos, accused her of being “too irrational”, etc. there is a barely-contained scorn/bitterness there that precedes konatsu even, derived of kiku’s relationship with miyokichi, which i’ll address in a moment.) in the bonus chapter, kiku laments the fact that sukeroku died without leaving an heir, from my understanding its p clear that kiku thought he could “help sukeroku move on” by producing one with his daughter - kiku involves himself in this process because he feels that it is his right to, just as he feels justified in demanding sukeroku’s return to rakugo after many years of absence, etc.

it feels dishonest and it doesn’t add anything to their characterization, or rather it forces the viewer to reevaluate a large portion of the work in light of this new bit of information.

i’d argue it is the natural extension of kiku’s characterization - one of a selfish and suicidal man consumed with his grief/guilt, who is litr haunted/cursed - for the reasons i’ve stated above. if the reveal forces a viewer to reevaluate a large portion of the work - all the better, imo. that’s indication that something fell through the cracks the first time around. (which is understandable; rakugo is dense as hell and i’m looking forward to my second rewatch, if only to reevaluate scenes with an all-knowing eye).

i know some fans called it and claimed there was enough foreshadowing for it to be believable, but that wasn’t the story kumota was telling up until the very end, and it wasn’t the story people were invested in. it’s honestly so jarring, in a series with such brilliant storytelling, that deals with the art of storytelling, to be faced with such an awkward narrative choice. 

again, i don’t see why kumota (or anyone else) is under any obligation to conform/reconcile her narrative trajectory with audience expectations, especially when the narrative is crafted in such a way to strike deliberately deceptive and/or underhanded (just like….. kiku is, and rakugo as an Form. who would’ve thunk that sgrs’ literally belabors the performativity + innocuous double entendre/deception that characterizes so many real life rakugo stories). like, that is the point, imo - which goes back to what i was saying about rakugo as an art form being so integral to one’s understanding of the show

miyokichi felt at times like more of a plot device than a fully developed character, konatsu is her own character.

tbh i don’t even know how to respond to this lol. miyokichi is such a rich and indispensable character - more interesting in principle than kiku or sukeroku combined - and i’m not about to launch into a dissertation detailing why. i just… dont know what to tell you honestly

we’re supposed to believe here that a closeted gay man (this is hardly subtext) wouldn’t sleep with the woman he was closest to, miyokichi, but would later agree to do so with her daughter, the child he raised, after he was shown to be desperately trying to push konatsu away, making her hate him at the end of said omake.

kiku was hardly what i would call “close” to miyokichi (in fact - we don’t know the relationship between miyo and kiku at all, considering kiku severely misrepresents his past with her. we have clues, of course, but they do not lie in what kiku says; rather what he does: primarily with respect to miyo’s daughter, which he treats like shit for the most part) (also; the implication that gay men do not father children and/or are categorically unwilling to father children doesn’t even square remotely with history)

again, kiku fathering shinnosuke speaks to his relationship with sukeroku, his selfish desire to be with sukeroku, defying death - and by extension, miyo’s continued exploitation at the hands of men (defying her death) and particularly at the hands of the rakugo association (7th generation yakumo anyone?)

it’s none other than higuchi who brings it up, he’s the one questioning konatsu about such a delicate topic - quite literally a tabloid journalist looking for a scandal. an information presented in such a way seems hardly reliable to me, even on a metatextual level, and i doubt we’re supposed to take it as face value as viewers.

i have no idea where this characterization comes from. this is the same journalist/rakugo historian who revealed to us the truth about jugemu: what is on its face a cute and innocuous tale is in fact a re-writing of what was once a disturbing, morbid story about a child drowning in a lake. (sounds familiar. hm i wonder) like. it seems absolutely appropriate that higuchi has the honors of introducing this reveal, in light of this historical/cultural context.

idk this was long but i hope i clarified some of my points further

[klkuhiko]

[jsdff-deactivated20171110]

clicc like if it was a narrative necessity for sukeroku II’s successor to be a woman with ample talent + no family or ancestral lineage + no hope for success in rakugo 4 kiku to contend with

[katsuragis]

fic: dead man estate

shouwa genroku rakugo shinjii; kikuhiko/sukeroku, 5333 words. comedy of errors, and three dying arts.

[jsdff-deactivated20171110]

The honest-to-god funniest thing about Rakugo is how frustrating it is that despite Yotaro’s cheap / unrefined / embarrassing imitation of Sukeroku’s Rakugo, he’s still a secondary lead character in a story that has so many other more interesting stories… (Lol and he knows it too, pushing Konatsu to perform her Rakugo because she’s objectively better, but that’s jumping ahead.)

I think Yota’s place as a sort of secondary lead (and I say this in that the entire two seasons of the show follow HIS rhythm/journey of Rakugo… we only GET the story because Kiku performs for him/Konatsu, the story begins with him, we meet Kiku thru him and so on) is… just hilarious? Bittersweet? Every time he’s on screen I find myself missing Sukeroku more than when other characters are on screen.

There is literally no reason for him to be at the forefront, and yet Kiku chose him for apprenticeship. But? Kiku’s apprentice had to be disappointing. Kiku’s entire rise + fame is disappointing & Kiku’s aware of this. He practically bows himself over with some major self flagellation because he’s the “only” option even though he’s less skilled and has less natural talent (much like Yota). The only difference between Yota and Kiku is Yota has at least some superficial passion for the art form whereas Kiku’s ‘passion’ is entirely contingent on Sukeroku. (And lmaoo, the fact that in the same breath he says Inokori is where you find your ego, he also mentions that he gave up learning it years ago. And then he performs a perfect copy of Sukeroku’s Inokori off memory alone.)

Kiku’s only chosen to be the 8th Generation because Sukeroku is essentially trapped in the lowest-of-the-low social class and there’s no way in hell any sort of title would be passed down to him. Period. It was always going to go to Kiku, whether Kiku “found his own Rakugo” or whatever fucking higher meaning Sukeroku gave Rakugo in-story. It’s the same reason the 7th Generation had the title he had despite, you know, we never really see his performances. Sukeroku II is such a major presence in the entire show whether he’s there or not, and the audience still doesn’t know shit about him past his relationship to the name. Rakugo is all about the weight/heft of legacy + names. In any case, Sukeroku II has no narrative. He’s trapped + limited by necessity. (As an aside, he’s also a lot more guarded than Kiku is, despite appearances. I would go as far to say that the only genuine Sukeroku we see is when he’s projecting heavily on Miyo.)

The entire joke of Yota’s apprenticeship is that his unrefined / boring / cheap Rakugo is exactly the inverse parallel of Kiku’s. Both had difficulty finding their own meaning in their performance. Both had an incredibly slow start with some painful performances. Both were only chosen because their opposite + better are absolutely not allowed in the theater (Sukeroku by class, Konatsu by gender).

Yota/Kiku’s differences are completely superficial and rooted in excessive posturing on Kiku’s part. Lmao, like, Kiku is too refined and obsessed with appearances to act like the idiot Yota does. He has too much pride to show what a hack he is and works scrupulously to cover that fact up… Because if anyone looked too closely at why he is where he is, then, lmao, game’s up.

(And I’m not saying that Kiku is talentless or his Rakugo is necessarily bad. But tbh it’s entirely technical and rigid, and the only times that it is interesting is when Kiku manifests his ~true self~ in a woman’s role. But that’s a different side tangent entirely that I won’t get into here. I’m mostly just delighted by my frustration with Yota’s prevalence in the story given how much I adore Kiku. Their entire narrative rhythm is pretty much identical.)

I think what’s fascinating in equal measure that it’s funny is how Yota’s popularity only proves to Kiku how busted the entire institution is. It’s this unwavering reminder of his own failures + shortcomings, the unfairness of Sukeroku’s demise, his own role in the entire matter, how he perpetuated similar violence he experienced himself onto Konatsu, and so on. He wants Rakugo to die even more now that it refound its flare/success in Yota. It just kind of proves everything he always suspected about Rakugo since Sukeroku’s death.

in conclusion:

[klkuhiko]

ya’ll. come on

[klkuhiko]

tbh as a sgrs fan the only thing more disheartening than the shinnosuke reveal is the sheer number of people who are denying it rn. i understand feeling cheated, feeling viscerally repulsed by it (i’d been suspecting the reveal, but the confirmation hit me like a sack of bricks too) but i’m baffled @ everyone’s careless dismissal - saying it couldn’t have happened, that kiku’s character doesn’t leave room for such an act, or even worse - claiming that it doesn’t make sense for the story, when in fact this literally rakugo’s theme/thesis taken to its most extreme and formulaic end. kiku being shinnosuke’s father speaks more to kiku and sukeroku’s relationship, and their treatment of women, than it does anything else

kumota haruko (the mangaka) prefaces the bonus chapter by emphasizing how critical - critical - this chapter is in understanding rakugo, and that it is the audience’s job to take a discerning eye to what is being implied. in the chapter the yakuza boss, oyabun, tells kiku that konatsu is off-limits for someone like him, out of respect for kiku as an great artist and a friend; we see kiku confront sukeroku, revealing that konatsu was wildly in love with him, he tells sukeroku that when konatsu gets older, he plans on approaching her not as “sukeroku’s child, but as another human being”. many years later, kiku thanks oyabun, who has agreed to posture as shinnosuke’s father for kiku’s sake, for doing him a favor he could never repay. shinnosuke shares kikuhiko’s physical likeness, his rakugo is telling (close readers understand how important the rakugo is in conveying hidden meaning when dialogue elects to be ambiguous), kiku’s frantic lament to sukeroku about “what he did to his daughter”, that both sukeroku and kikuhiko’s children appear with them in heaven... knowing that there are people plugging their ears, pounding sand in denial, speaks to me of someone who is desperately invested in preserving the integrity of a hyperidealized male character (”b-b-but [x] would never do that, he is [such a good guy/my friend/a genius!!]”) than they are interrogating and thinking critically about what this means in context of sgrs’ message and cultural narrative. 

sgrs’ tragedy is muted and understated, its deeply woven into the fabric of the apologue structure, one that labors the oppressive dominion of generational pedigree, and the power of lineage - the yakumo name stays inside the family, the 7th generation took the name from his father, and outsiders (like sukeroku, or women) are essentially helpless. there’s tragedy in kiku and sukeroku’s romantic relationship - shinnosuke is kiku’s and sukeroku’s lovechild, yes, their love borne through rakugo, but he comes at the exploitation of two women, miyokichi and konatsu, i.e “society’s so homophobic that women have to be used as mediators/incubators to consummate this everlasting love between these two men.” say what you want about the message - kumota certainly could have explored more novel ways to say the same thing, imo, but it’s not surprising, and is exactly what this show has been trying to say all along

idk there is something very dangerous in framing unhealthy power imbalances or traumatic sexual relationships as “unthinkable” and “preposterous” - tbh this feeds into to the standard narrative that keeps victims of these relationships silent because their experiences are so heavily “other-ed”, whereby the perpetrators are often family members, well-liked men (gay and straight), prolific men, sympathetic men who are otherwise humanized. someone like kiku. it’s just really transparent that in this totally fictional instance, ppl’s immediate gut reaction is to deny (as always) rather than examine

[copticprayer]

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