Since we're at the over-analyzing part of the RE9 proceedings, did anyone wonder about Grace's >I'm coming with you to Raccoon City< line:
"I don't want anymore regrets. Whatever it takes, count me in."?
Grace was always going to learn something at the Sanitarium that would lead her to accompany Leon, I was just expecting something more along the lines of "I need to find out what happened/hold the people responsible accountable". The usual 'reading too much into things' caveat applies here obviously, but to me 'I don't want anymore regrets' kind of implies that she's going to rectify something she failed/missed to do earlier.
Speculation under the cut:
Alyssa's death is meant to be driving force behind Grace's arc, so it's probably fair to assume that any regret she feels would be connected to the loss of her mother. Now this might all just boil down to something like regret for Grace having withdrawn into herself, and not trying to find out what actually happened earlier, so now she's going to be brave and investigate.
On the other hand, and putting on the previously mentioned Reading Too Much Into Things Hat, what if there's a chance that Alyssa is still alive? When it come to dead loved ones, regret is usually tied to not having had the chance to say goodbye, or how much they love them, or even saving them outright. If there was even the smallest hope that her mom is still alive, that would be something that would push timid, scared-cat Grace to head to somewhere as awful as Raccoon City.
We've all been speculating that the little girl, Emily, is a clone of Grace, or that the two girls are clones of some unidentified experimental host and Alyssa rescued and adopted Grace. I can totally see that be the case, but the thing that bothers me about that theory is that we then have to explain why on earth Gideon needs Grace so badly when he has a genetic copy lying around at home. We initially all thought Grace was important precisely because she was Alyssa's biological daughter and inherited her mother's Daylight antibodies.
So, what if Emily isn't a clone of Grace, what if she's a clone of Alyssa? She'd be the right age if she was created shortly after Alyssa was "killed" and her body stolen by Gideon. Emily looks a lot like Grace, but to me she looks just as much like Alyssa. (And if Big Momma is a further mutation of the Emily clones, than that would also explain the Hag being "Alyssa".)
Maybe Gideon initially targeted Alyssa because of her immunity before realizing it was her daughter he needed. It reminds me a little of Miranda trying to artificially remake her daughter before Mia and Mold!Ethan accidentally did it "the old-fashioned way". (And I guess Jake having a lot of Wesker's attributes without the side-effects because he's his natural child, not a lab experiment.)
RE9 Possible Spoilers as I rant about a theory of mine (this is about Grace and Gideon I got nothing interesting for Leon yet):
Okay, so the new trailer has led me to a lot of new thoughts, but it also has me rotating back to some thoughts I've had in the past few months regarding Victor Gideon and Grace's plot lines.
I highly suspect at this point that Grace is not Alyssa's biological child and that she was likely a clone/experiment created by whatever is left of Umbrella/who is taking up the mantle (Gideon's words in her being 'liberated' and not 'kidnapped' resonate a lot with this idea). All those children featured in the trailer look too much like her as well for me to believe anything else.
However, it's possible she's not the only 'science experiment' in this duo.
Victor Gideon in the photo we see of him before whatever scarred him or ruined him looks too much like a Tyrant for me to not notice. It's been confirmed he's at least 7ft tall which helps that theory, but also the way he speaks about whoever he's working for as 'master'. Could it possibly be that Gideon was an experiment/participated in being experimented on that became useful to whom ever he was working for, be it Spencer or Bailey or whoever?
A being who feels his only purpose is to ensure his master's wish?
Of course I could be totally wrong on either, and maybe Grace is still somehow Alyssa's biological child after she was forced/participated in some experiment (that seems rather unlikely to me though).
Still, I really enjoy the narrative cohesion that idea would bring. You've got two people, artificially created or altered, drawn to face one another in the conclusion of the company's goal that did this to them with one determined to bring about its mission and the other in due time to stop it, both at all costs.
Or Gideon is just a crazy guy devoted to Umbrella and Capcom doesn't do anything interesting with him which would stink.
Absolutely hate that they had the "I could have resisted it but I chose to join it" line right before the Marvel fuckass scene so it stays unexamined. That is literally an untrue statement as we know how flaying works and it consumes you fully unless you have a core happy memory with someone that truly loves you helping you reach it, and even that was almost impossible for Will, who the MF seized fully again after just a phonecall distracted Joyce, Mike and Jonathan, and it only left after he was almost killed by the burning furnaces. If they had just shown Henry's backstory, and delved into the lab, and used the memories plot device to show us this antithesis, and just did SOMETHING with that storyline instead of 3 hours of mr Whatsit + kids scenes we could have had such a well rounded tragic storyline it makes me so mad
I fucking despise people who only like Henry because he’s “hot” I also hate people who hate on Henry without watching The First Shadow first. LIKE HELLOOO??? Once I finished it I feel like I genuinely felt sick, especially the grooming and sexual assault representation between Henry and Dr. Brenner. Also although I hate Dr. Brenner so much, he has so much aura icl. But I hate him so much it’s not even funny my poor boy. He just wanted to be a normal kid ☹️
I cried so much during the entire scene with him and Brenner at the end, not to mention the ball gag hello?!?! I think this just shows how much abusers hurt victims, victims become abusers and the cycle repeats. Henry was NEVER a bad kid, he was hurt and scared and confused and manipulated. He dident have any friends or a (good) family to help him after he was flayed. He’s such a fucking complex character and people can’t see anything more than how attractive he is, or how he SA’ed Will and groomed Holly. Once again, not defending him, BECAUSE THAT WAS NOT HIM. UGHGHHH MY POOR BABY
Not to mention we never learned what happened with Patty??? But I think the saddest part of this whole thing is that he ended up being beheaded and killed by the second person in his high school who treated him with kindness and respect. He never even got to say goodbye to Patty ☹️ Joyce killing him while while also single handily being his #1 Support other than Patty in high school. His valid crashouts were always valid. Dr. Brenner’s quotes when he first took him actively make me want to throw up. “You’ve been such a good boy Henry. You’re as much of a father of this family as I am.” IM GONNA THROW UP STOP
Jamie Campbell Bower, thank you for trying to give us as much of the real Henry as you could amongst people who didn't give a flying fuck about him. Thank you for your service, you can live in peace knowing you did full justice to him.
Something that bothers me so deeply is. How they used allegories for SA just for shock value. Will? Shock Value. Jane and Papa's "third leg" drawing? Just a throwaway detail for the "insane" fans to look into!! (/sarc. Sorta). The mindflayer being an allegory for SA for Henry? Nothing. The kids in s5? Shock value!
Henry is a deeply important character to me, despite him being part of the main villain crew. This is not me excusing his actions, although I do see Henry and Vecna as two different units. I just wish they had made it more easy to understand that he was a victim too. But no, they made joining the SA allegory monster "his choice". Ok. They made the repeating of the pattern "his choice". Im so pissed off
another rant about joyce killing vecna and the irrelevantification of tfc... go my scarab...
among the many flaws of s5 one thing recently caught my eye. winona saying she wasn't even sure if she was in st5 made me realize how much they've butchered joyce's character in volume 2 and 3 compared to volume 1, the earlier seasons and ESPECIALLY the first shadow. (this mostly applies to how she went about the vecna situation but there are many other key flaws in her writing i'll probably talk about at some point)
the joyce byers we knew never would've swung the axe towards someone who is made of even a fraction of that weird kid she knew in highschool. the joyce byers we knew wouldn't bring harm to anyone who has been through as much as will has. and most importantly, the little joyce moldonado we knew would've remembered what henry said to her about being a good person. those words aren't something you just forget, it's the kind of thing that constantly follows you through life.
taking into consideration what the doofus brothers said about "joyce and hopper finding out off screen" and tfs apparently being canon (despite being made absolutely irrelevant by having it referenced for 3 seconds in the whole season + how unaccessible it is anyway), she would've known most of the story. in their encounter it wasn't the mind flayer speaking, it was the actual henry creel. she finds out from patty that principal newby was protected by the actual henry creel. she obviously knows what the mind flayer is, what it does, and yet the idiots STILL decided to both give henry the worst possible ending and completely strip joyce of her humanity for the duration of those eleven swings. they could've done so much with the already established plot but instead they went with just flushing all of tfs down the toilet.
we've already gotten scenes of will and jane trying to get through to henry. in the perfect ending, the one other person they needed was joyce. maybe henry could've actually been redeemed, or maybe he would've just died with more dignity, but any other ending we could've had would be the perfect wrap for joyce's character development throughout all those years. but oh well, at least she's marrying hopper after zero mentions of their past whatsoever despite there being a perfect moment to bring it up at the end of the series.
btw if comformirygate does end up being canon i'm still never apologizing for my brainstormed duffer insults as payback for having to see my two favorite characters being done so dirty on MY screen and MY wifi in MY house
Look for ages it had been bugging me and I didn’t know why. It felt wrong and was being held up by Noah and Jamie’s acting. It wasn’t until I read numerous critiques that I realised the Duffers made Will Byers victim blame. Something grossly out of character for him even accidentally. (Then again generally all of season 5 was just character slaughter. Metaphorically)
Will’s whole conversation to Henry in the cave was by the far the most mischaracterised moment in the show though. Will throughout the show is someone who has been shown numerous times to be highly empathetic the only situations that have ever provided evidence otherwise are when El is bullied but he still is attempting to be helpful and this can be put down to his own past bullying experiences and him being a human being etc…. So that rebuttal doesn’t really stand. So why is Will borderline cruel when addressing Henry. He has the context to know Henry can’t fight on his own or resist let alone without any support or love like he did.
Will has been shown time and time again to give second chances rather easily as displayed with his attitude to anyone around him honestly. Will has no proof or reason to believe Henry has done anything anymore so why take what he says at face value when he has lied many times when flayed for the short period he was? Considering there was no issue in the many plot holes, I would bet that they had that moment purely so the GA felt happy that Henry died in the most tragic way possible. So they killed Will’s core trait to kill Henry. Great.
Why is it so hard to be both a Will and Henry stan.
Henry Creel is arguably one of the few villains we can say absolutely had no agency in anything. Which is why it's so frustrating that he was punished for his actions- actions he could not choose.
The other villains in Stranger Things specifically did have agency and autonomy. Even Billy, who people excuse due to his trauma, did have agency. But Henry? He did not. He didn't even have his own mind.
And this set up of his character, this reveal of the truth of his backstory, should mean that in the end, he's saved and redeemed/rehabilitated. That's how his archetype should typically have a conclusion in a story... unless of course the story is intended to be a tragedy. And that's not the kind of ending we got, either.
No, the ending was framed as a victory. And it was treated as if Vecna/Henry had no excuse for what he did, was not redeemable, and there was no more consideration for the fact that he was actively being used by the mind flayer. "But he said he chose to mind flayer" He doesn't have the agency to choose. He is literally incapable of choosing, and there's a very good chance that was the Mind Flayer, not him.
Yet he's treated like he's pure evil. Like he was the one who did this.
And that's so infuriating. If they wanted him to be truly evil and choosing this, he could have been an adult, a scientist for Brenner, who stole the stone from the abyss to use its powers. Or he could have been someone who was rescued only to go back and regain those powers (and even then there's an argument over whether he'd have understood what he was doing). There could be any other way to write his backstory, even make it upsetting, that still allow him agency enough to be choosing all of this.
Someone with a tragic backstory who does have agency still is Billy Hargrove- who also had a point where he DIDN'T. Billy has both been cruel of his own will, and due to being flayed, and while his actions due to the mind flayer are excused because he was under control of the mind flayer, his actions prior to that are not excused, because yes, he's an abuse victim, but he still has the autonomy to choose to leave the house and cause trouble, to choose to take his anger out on his step sister, to choose what he did. It's that ability to choose that makes him a bad person because he still could choose better. There's a limit to what can be excused and explained by a tragic backstory, and Billy crossed it. And the way Billy's story ended is partially a redemption, but also still is the consequence of what he's done. It's not unfair, as such. Not that he deserved to die, but narratively. You know what I mean.
Henry, while doing the worst actions, did not have the agency to choose those actions. And the narrative punishing him makes absolutely no sense considering this. It never acknowledges the true level of what he's been subjected to, or how he's most likely mentally about eight, or how the mind flayer was the conscious evil (they turned the damn thing into a growling physical monster, which kind of almost takes away the responsibility from it, because it's now an animal and animals can't do anything "evil", despite the fact that it IS evil).
So yeah, I am incredibly mad about how his story ended. He didn't need to live, sure, but he could have met his end in a much better way. A way that doesn't directly punish him for being a victim with absolutely zero agency.
It makes my blood boil how half-heartedly and lazily they've attempted a redemption arc for Henry, how disastrously they've tried to reference The First Shadow.
I say half-heartedly, lazily, and badly because even though they've shown us how Henry got his powers and was controlled and consumed all this time by the Mind Flayer, there's not a single hint about Patty Newby or anything, who, along with Eleven, is possibly one of the most important people in Henry's life.
It also makes me so angry that they included such a painful scene that highlights Henry's vulnerability and contrasting it with Will's traumas. Will finally "understanding" Henry as just a child...only for Eleven to just kill him and Joyce to rip his head off less than a minute later...so, what was the point of all this? Was it all for nothing? Was that scene completely pointless?
Oh Henry, the Duffers didn't understand you, just like your mother Virginia never understood you...
Excuse me, I am a widow, mourning her late husband...
literally what happened to Henry and Els relationship?? Her complete disregard for him? Will and his sudden emotional "connection" to him?? I felt like harry " how dare you stand where *she* stood?"
Honestly, I think the Duffers just didn’t want to deal with their relationship. The same way they avoided dealing with anything that could give Henry more humanity or make him more sympathetic than what was strictly necessary.
I genuinely don’t understand how they fumbled their connection so badly. They explicitly introduce the idea that El has Henry’s blood, and not only that, but they emphasize that out of all the 17 (?) numbers that came after him, she’s the only one who turned out exactly like him. And then they just… do nothing with that information.
Are we really supposed to believe it’s pure coincidence (ha) that she’s his only equal? Yeah, the “Luke, I am your father” angle might be cliché, but let’s not pretend this show hasn’t used way worse ones.
What’s truly insane to me is that Eleven isn’t allowed to be curious or conflicted about any of this. Or even remotely sympathetic about the fact that, just like Kali, and just like what the government plans to keep doing with her, Henry was literally used as a blood bank to create her and her siblings. She's a product of his suffering, doesn’t that make her feel anything?
Eleven knows what it’s like to be treated as a weapon. She knows what it’s like to be groomed by a parental figure. She knows what it’s like to be loved and abused in equal measure. Henry and Eleven went through the same fucking thing under Brenner, and yet the narrative conveniently pushes that parallel aside.
They are not just bound by blood. They are bound by institutional abuse, by the same institution, by the same man. They are bound by trauma.
And yet, Eleven is never really allowed to sympathize with Henry past season 4, and even then, like Will, she only reaches out to him when he’s about to kill Max. Their empathy for him is always treated as a last resource in a fight, it doesn’t feel genuine.
That’s actually my biggest issue with how the Duffers write Eleven, especially this season. She’s incredibly quick to judge, deeply incurious, and almost completely unsympathetic to anyone who isn’t already her friend. That could be an interesting character flaw, but the narrative never treats it as one. It’s just pure protagonist centered morality.
Even after Brenner literally tells her in season 4 that “there are no monsters and heroes, people are not so easily defined” she never evolves past that black and white worldview, and she’s never punished for it.
Season 4 dealt with so many mature themes, like trauma, abuse, guilt, moral ambiguity, only for season 5 to discard all of them.
For me, Eleven is inseparable from Henry’s character. She should be the bridge between Vecna and The First Shadow’s Henry, not Will. The parallels are obvious: both Eleven and Patty are people Henry loved, people he wanted to protect, people he imagined a life with. Exploring that relationship would’ve been a direct connection to TFS and you wouldn’t even need to introduce Patty on screen to honor the play.
I really wanted to see Henry jealous of El’s friends and family, not just because they represent love and support he never had, but because that life was supposed to be his. Instead, even his obsession with Eleven evaporates this season, which makes their only interaction on his mind and their final battle feel strangely hollow .
And THAT brings me to the even bigger issue: Henry just feels weirdly disconnected from the rest of the narrative. And it’s not just because he’s the villain and he’s not hanging around the heroes, but because there’s no emotional connection between him and the rest of the cast anymore.
El doesn’t care about him in a personal way, he’s just an obstacle to her happy ending. He apparently feels the same way. There’s just no emotional stakes and no unresolved bond.
He doesn’t care about the kids (you can argue that he does if you read into it I suppose, but I don't believe that was intentional) and the kids don’t care about him. Holly just instantly accepts that he’s “bad” without hesitation or inner conflict, and so do the rest of them.
Henry himself doesn’t give a single fuck about Will, he’s just an annoyance, nothing more. And of course, Hopper and Joyce knowing the sweet boy Henry used to be is completely irrelevant here.
All of that combined really just makes Henry feel like less of a character and more of a narrative device.
He's really treated like a boss fight and it makes me wonder why the hell they bothered to introduce a human as their villain if they’re not interested in exploring any of the nuances that come with it and were just going to completely dehumanize him anyway.
we forget that henry was flayed at EIGHT YEARS OLD. he hadn't had the opportunity to mature normally since he was a little kid. not saying he was mentally eight, but in the moments before joyce killed him he probably felt like it - a scared, lost, lonely little boy in pain, on an unfamiliar, faraway planet, surrounded by people who hated him for reasons he couldn't control.
what do you think his last thoughts were? 'I never asked for this. I don't know where I am. I don't know how I got here.' Or do you think they were simpler? 'I'm scared. Please don't. I want my mom.'
And then he sees Joyce. Someone he knows from school, from better times, someone who treated him with kindness and believed in him. And he feels a flicker of hope. Maybe she understands that I did not choose to be this way.
And then he sees that she is holding an axe. And there is no hint of recognition on her face, only hate.
Henry Creel, the boy who no one loved, the ostracized freak, the killer who never chose to kill - decapitated at the hands of the last person who could have saved him. Could have offered him any understanding or mercy. And his death was not easy or clean. But then, nothing in his life ever was.
henry creel might be the character with the saddest lore in the whole show and to see him get *that* ending makes me want to bang my head against the wall like holy shit
