Weāre talking issues that affect Black women in the UK this time, the maternal mortality rate and Yarlswood Immigration Detention Centre. Any topics you want us to cover? Let us know.Ā

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@make-more-noise
Weāre talking issues that affect Black women in the UK this time, the maternal mortality rate and Yarlswood Immigration Detention Centre. Any topics you want us to cover? Let us know.Ā
happy international womenās day to everyone but men
āMen arenāt allowed to express their feelings š¢ā women were diagnosed with hysteria and lobotomized for expressing anything other than a deadpan Barbie doll gaze
Iām not a misandrist I have man friends and sometimes I even read books by men Iām very open minded
On this day, 8 March 1917, thousands of housewives and women workers in St Petersburg, Russia defied union leadersā appeals for calm and took to the streets against high prices and hunger, thus igniting the February revolution (so-called because of the calendar used in Russia at the time). The following day, 200,000 workers joined them by striking, shouting slogans against the tsar and the war. Some military units began to join the workers, and by 15 March, tsar Nicholas II was forced to abdicate. On 8 March the following year, women in Austria celebrated International Womenās Day on this date for the first time as thousands took to the streets protesting against World War I. This International Womenās Day, learn more about radical womenās history in our podcast: https://workingclasshistory.com/tag/women https://www.facebook.com/workingclasshistory/photos/a.296224173896073/1368646019987211/?type=3
why are we still here? just to suffer? every day a man somewhere wakes up and decides to become a film major
āNotice: I will not commit suicide. I wonāt be bought off or drown in a bath tub, nor will I shoot myself in the head. So, if that happens: I wasnāt me. Save this tweet.ā
According to the Buenos Aires Times, there are now āunconfirmed reportsā the mother-of-two consumed āexcessive amounts of cocaine, LSD and champagneā on Friday ā the night she attended the event with a friend.
But while local news outlets have reported autopsy results showed Ms Jaitt suffered multiple organ failure with no sign of violence, her brother claims she wouldnāt have taken drugs as they would have reacted to medication she had just started taking.
Reddit users also claimed pictures of Ms Jaittās naked body had been posted online shortly after her death before being hastily deleted.
Source
Police arrived at the Xanadu event complex near the capital of Argentina, where Jaitt was found unresponsive in bed. After her death was confirmed, police began investigating. A coroner determined on Saturday that Jaitt died of multi-organ failure; her body showed no signs of violence. She was a widow and mother of two children.
Source (check out this one to see the horrifying things Pope Francis is doing)
Read the above and not that her brother, who helped her testify with the abused children, is saying that there is no way she killed herself like this.
She was found overdosed and naked at a party that she was never supposed to go to at the first place. They stole this womanās dignity. murdered her, and orphaned her children.
Here is a list of people she exposed:
Pope FrancisĀ
Gustavo Vera (friend of Pope Francis)
MartĆn Bustos (who ran pedophile ring)
TomƔs Beldi (lawyer who destroyed evidence vital to case)
Juan Manuel DĆaz Vallone (Managed the football players)
Alejandro Carlos Dal Cin
Silvio Fleyta
Leo Cohen Arazi (Worked in Public Relations)
Spanish source for listĀ
English source for listĀ
(note: information on her is hard to find, but she apparently made several other busts, I just canāt find the names she released because fucking google is evil)
Significant links:
Here is an English source for the pedophile ring that she exposed
Abuse tracker- an archive holding the church accountableĀ
Here are the 4chan users with information on the case. (Thread has interesting links and information)
Donāt forget what this woman did, and what they did to her.Ā
She knew she was putting herself at risk. She knew she was going to die. She didnāt care, she wanted this story out. She wanted the victims to see justice. Remember this.Ā
I so hope this person is still alive to expose literally everything
Died: 23 February 2019, BenavĆdez, ArgentinaĀ
Born: 13 August 1977, Buenos Aires, Argentina
Children: Valentino Yospe, Antonella Olivera
<3 This woman was a hero <3
as a black woman, i feel my loyalties very split between black men and white women. like sometimes white women have privilege over black men, of course. however, i'd feel safer walking past a group of white women at night than i would a group of black (or any other race BTW) of men at night. i just feel like both groups are threats in different ways, i guess.
Yes that's true, I feel a similar way. I feel comfortable being alone with women I don't know in a way that I would never ever feel with a man.
I think bm and ww really play off each other in denying their privileges and blaming the other group for black women's problems, and we get screwed over either way.
Dr. Vandana Shiva & Feminist Theory
In Hindi, chipko means, āto embrace.ā Ā The Chipko Movement in India became one of the most successful environmental activism struggles in the world. Ā Vandana Shiva was one of the women involved in this movement, which resisted industrial forestry and logging in rural India. Ā Local women physically put their bodies between the machinery and the forest that provided their livelihoodāliterally hugging the trees (Callicott, 218). Ā The largest success of the Chipko movement was convincing Indira Gandhi, Indiaās prime minister in 1981, to declare a fifteen-year moratorium on logging in the Himalayan forests in Uttar Pradesh (Callicott, 218).
Dr. Vandana Shiva is a woman whose work is focused on embracing not only the principles of feminism, but also the principles of ecology. Ā In fact, as an ecofeminist, she sees these two movements as interconnected and believes that the worldview that causes environmental degradation and injustice is the same worldview that causes a culture of male domination, exploitation, and inequality for women. Ā Vandana Shiva titles her feminist theory āpolitical,ā or āsubsistenceā ecofeminism, to differentiate it from the more spiritually focused ecofeminism popular in Western countries (although, since the WTO protests of 1999 and the events of September 11, 2001, Western ecofeminism has become equally politically aware). Ā Both her activism and theory has had a global and concrete focus. Ā Her work has dealt with āthird worldā women, whose lives are adversely affected by the forces of corporate globalization and colonialism.
A tireless author, speaker and activist, Shiva has written over 13 books that reveal the true impact of globalization on the lives of women and men in developing countries. She has founded several organizations, including The Research Foundation for Science, Technology, and Ecology, Navdanya, and Bija Vidyapeeth, an organic farm and center for holistic living.
Born in 1952, she began training as a nuclear physicist. Ā When Shivaās sister, a doctor, explained to Vandana the effects of nuclear radiation on life forms, Vandana was shocked because her science education had not addressed the risks and horrors of their work. Ā This was a pivotal moment that caused Shiva to critique science and the worldview behind scientific ideology. Ā This critique led to the development of her āsubsistenceā ecofeminist theories, and her relentless activism to protect both women and nature.
āEcofeminismā was a term first used by Francoise DāEaubonne in 1980 and gained popularity in protests and actions against continued ecological disaster. Ā Shiva and Maria Mies explain:
āWe see the devastation of the earth and her beings by the corporate warriors, as feminist concerns. Ā It is the same masculinist mentality which would deny us our right to our own bodies and our own sexuality, and which depends on multiple systems of dominance and state power to have its wayā (14).
From Shivaās perspective, womenās liberation cannot be achieved without a simultaneous struggle for the preservation and liberation of all life on this planet from the dominant patriarchal/capitalist worldview (Mies and Shiva, 16). Ā Ecofeminism distinguishes itself from other theories of feminism, which maintain the hierarchical worldview of the Western world. āRather than attempting to overcome this hierarchical dichotomy many women have simply up-ended it, and thus women are seen as superior to men, nature to culture, and so onā (Mies and Shiva, 5).
Shiva and other ecofeminists are explicitly anti-war and anti-capitalist, because both war and capitalism are seen as patriarchal structures. āThe capitalist patriarchy perspective interprets difference as hierarchical and uniformity as a prerequisite for equalityā (Mies and Shiva, 2). Ā For Shiva there is connection between the escalation of war, āmusclemenā culture, and rape and other violence against women. Ā āIt is no coincidence that the gruesome game of warāin which the greater part of the male sex seems to delightāpasses through the same stages as the traditional sexual relationship: aggression, conquest, possession, control. Ā Of a woman or a land, it makes little differenceā (Mies and Shiva, 15).
The historical context that radicalized Vandana Shiva and many others was the Green Revolution and the vast globalization of the mid to late twentieth century. Ā Shiva refers to this model of economic development as maldevelopment. āMaldevelopment militates against equality in diversity, and superimposes the ideologically constructed category of western technological man as the uniform measure of the worth of classes, cultures and gendersā (Shiva, Staying Alive, 5).
The āGreen Revolutionā is a misnomer used by U.S. industrial agriculture and biotechnology seed and chemical corporations (Monsanto, Cargill, Dekalb, ADM, et al) to aggressively promote the implementation of their products to farmers in the āthird world.ā Ā As Shiva explains in a lecture given in 2003 (An Hour with Vandana Shiva), these corporations convinced farmers in India to shift from subsistence farming (where a family grows food primarily to meet their own food needs, and trades a small amount of their crop for other local goods and services) to growing a monoculture (growing a single plant species over a large area) of a cash crop bound for the global food market (for example, growing potatoes in India that end up as French fries at a McDonaldās in Detroit, Michigan).
This method of farming, aggressively forced on Indian farmers by the WTO (World Trade Organization) and the IMF (International Monetary Fund) in the 1980s and 1990s, was disastrous for the farmers of India. Ā Cash crop industrial agriculture caused farmers to go into debt to the multinational seed and chemical companies, and when their crops failed, the result was over 20,000 farmers taking their own lives by drinking the chemical fertilizers and pesticides sold to them by the corporations that held their insurmountable debt.
Vandana Shiva credits Article 27.53b of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT), which allows corporations to hold patents on forms of life, for pushing her to become an ecofeminist activist. Ā Under this article, it is illegal to save seeds and plant them the following year if a corporation holds a patent on that plant. Ā For a farmer, this means that he or she cannot be independent, but must now pay the corporation every year to plant that seed. Ā For the corporation, it means that it can appropriate any life form (such as basmati rice, which had been developed over thousands of years in India through traditional breeding and selection techniques), apply for a patent, and is thereby granted complete legal and biological control over that species, anywhere in the world. Ā In resistance to these violent forces of globalization, Vandana Shiva founded Navdanya in 1991, an organization in India that saves seeds, promotes biodiversity, empowers women and children, and protects indigenous knowledge.
To the western worldview, the patenting of seeds or the deforestation of the Himalaya may seem completely unrelated to feminism. Ā For women in the global South, however, the āenvironmentā is the place where they live, and it encompasses everything that affects their lives (Shiva, Close to Home, 2). Ā According to Shiva and Maria Mies, āurban, middle-class women find it difficult to perceive commonality both between their own liberation and the liberation of nature, and between themselves and ādifferentā women in the worldā (5). Ā This disconnect is due to the fundamental dualistic nature of the western worldview, where the nature of reality is divided into opposing parts, and hierarchically arranged. Ā Thus, humans are seen as separate to nature, technology is seen as superior to indigenous knowledge, men are superior to women, and humans are superior and separate from animals, etc.
Shiva and Mies write, āThe womenās movementā¦had fastened it hopes on the progress of science and technology, particularly in the area of reproduction, but also of house- and other workā (7). This progress would have to be based on the continued dominance over nature, and pursuing the goal of ācatching upā to men in āadvancedā societies (Mies and Shiva, 7). Ā But if the definition of āequality for allā is that all people in the world are able to live at the same level of consumption of resources enjoyed by men in advanced societies, this equality is quite simply impossible. Ā āWith a limited planet, there can be no escape from necessity. Ā To find freedom does not involve subjugating or transcending the ārealm of necessity,ā but rather focusing on developing a vision of freedom, happiness, the āgood lifeā within the limits of necessity, of natureā (Mies and Shiva, 8).
Dr. Madronna Holden points out that, āPolitical or subsistence ecofeminists such as Shiva and Mies place part of the blame for the oppressive influence of patriarchy on the rise of Western (and Marxist) ideas of development and āprogressāā (6). To further show this disconnect between Western views of feminism and ecologically based feminism, Shiva explains:
āA common criticism leveled at ecological feminist approaches to the current crisis, is that of āessentialismā; relating environmental issues to women in a specific way is seen as an āessentialistā world view. Yet the charge itself emanates from a paradigm that splits parts from whole, fragments and divides, and either sees the part as subjugating the whole (reductionism) or the whole as subjugating the partsāin other words, essentializing bothā (Close to Home, 7).
The alternative worldview promoted by Shiva is one of partnership and cooperation. Shiva believes different definitions of freedom, knowledge, and progress are needed for the liberation of both women and the environment, from those definitions held by Western culture since the Enlightenment. Shivaās ecofeminist perspective makes no distinction between ābasic needsā (food, clothing, shelter) and āhigher needsā (freedom and knowledge).
For women in the affluent North such a concept of universalism or commonality is not easy to grasp. Survival is seen not as the ultimate goal of life but a banalityāa fact that can be taken for granted. Ā It is precisely the value of the everyday work for survival, for life, which has been eroded in the name of the so-called āhigher valuesā (Mies and Shiva, 13).
Modernization brings with it new forms of dominance to subsistence cultures. Ā Subsistence, on the other hand, has been shown to be a model of interdependence and cooperation. Ā āThe complimentarity (sic) of the separate male and female domains of work is the characteristic mode, based on diversity, not inequalityā (Shiva, Staying Alive, 5). Ā Modernization, however, brings domination and the devaluing of womenās work, which is not done for financial gain, but for meeting the daily needs of people and families.
Shiva argues that as long as the Western world sees the environmental movement and the womenās movement as separate and unrelated, the environmental movement will be co-opted by the forces of āmaldevelopmentā and used as a ānew patriarchal project of technological fixes and political oppressionā (Shiva, Staying Alive, 48). Ā She explains that oppression will continue in the Western worldview because it devalues what she terms the feminine principle. Ā This concept is often confused with the promotion of gendered femininity, but Shiva sees the feminine principle as the larger creative force in the world. Ā āThe new insight provided by rural women in the Third World is that women and nature are associated not in passivity but in creativity and in the maintenance of lifeā (Shiva, Staying Alive, 47).
The feminine principle is based on inclusiveness and its recovery in men, women, and nature, is the recovery of ācreative forms of being and perceivingā (Shiva, Staying Alive, 53). Ā Shiva proposes that the feminine principle is killed in Western women by the association of passivity as a category with the feminine (53). Ā In men, this principle is squashed by the notion that āactivityā is destruction rather than creation, and āpowerā is domination rather than empowerment (53).
As natural resources become more and more limited on our finite planet, a shift in our worldview will become compulsory. Ā Vandana Shivaās vision for a combined movement to end oppression of both women and nature is part of the answer to how we can achieve sustainability on this planet and find our place as a species. Ā We must acknowledge that we are part of the larger web of life that provides for our survival, and therefore it is imperative that we protect that fragile web of life, not as dominatorsāmen over women and humans over natureābut as partners with every other life form on the planet.
References
Callicott, J. Baird. Earthās Insights. Berkeley: University of California Press. 1994.
Democracy Now! An Hour with Vandana Shiva. 27 November 2003.http://www.democracynow.org/2003/11/27/an_hour_with_vandana_shiva_indian.
Holden, Madronna. Ā WS 450 Ecofeminism Class notes. Oregon State University. 2009.
Mies, Maria and Vandana Shiva. Ecofeminism. Halifax: Fernwood Publications. 1993.
Navdanya. http://www.navdanya.org
The Complete Marquis Whoās Who Ā® Biographies. Ā Marquis Whoās Who LLC. 2008. Lexis-Nexis. 18 January 2009 http://www.lexisnexis.com.proxy.library.oregonstate.edu/us/lnacademic/search/loadForm.do
Shiva, Vandana, ed. Close to Home: Women Reconnect Ecology, Health and Development Worldwide. Philadelphia: New Society Publishers. 1994.
Shiva, Vandana. Staying Alive: Women, Ecology and Development. London: Zed Books. 1989.
Super interesting stuff!
Save the date for the launch of the Detransition Advocacy Network. A new network where detransitioned people can come together for support and community. Manchester location. 30th November. Tickets here.
I was inspired to get up and speak at the Manchester āMake More Noiseā the Elephant in the Room, event when Sarah Cookesley said, when talking about domestic ab
I married a man who fathered my daughter in the conventional way. Ā Ten years later he decided that he had been a woman all along and so our marriage ended. I left the marital home, taking my daughter with me. Ā The man I married, no longer exists and I am forbidden from referring to him by his former ādead nameā.
Having your boundaries gradually and forcibly broken down and compromised over a period of time until your marriage becomes nothing like the arrangement that you signed up to, feels exactly like Sarah describes- Ā a slow death with everything you thought you knew about yourself being gradually crushed out of existence. Ā But with the support of other women, we trans widows can rise again.
My experience is becoming more and more common and I have spoken to many women who have found themselves in a similar situation. Ā Women who previously felt completely alone in their struggle.
What can you do to help women like me?
Donāt call my ex āsheā when you talk about him to me. Ā Call him what you like when you speak to him, but describing him with female pronouns to me, makes my life not make sense and my daughterās life not make sense.
Donāt, under any circumstances, refer to him as my daughterās mother. Ā She only has one mother and it is not him.
Seek out and share the stories of trans widows. Ā Help our voices to be heard. Ā Late transitioning men leave women and girls in their wake- wives, mothers, daughters and sisters who are asked not only to rewrite their past but to celebrate a new future that they do not recognise.
Many trans widows report feeling gagged by everybody else lauding their partners as āstunning and braveā. Ā Our exās are often celebrated twitter personalities, newspaper columnists or the subjects of documentaries, but those of us wives who leave are forced to remain anonymous for fear of reprisals. Support those women who put themselves and their children first.
When you hear of a late transitioning male, let your first thought be for these women and how they are affected. If it is somebody in your circle of acquaintance, seek out the wife or the mother and let her know that she has your support.
Defend our use of the term āTrans Widowā as some people question its appropriateness. Ā However it is the name that we have chosen for ourselves and it is enabling us to find each other and to share our experiences. Women talking to each other is a powerful weapon.
Donāt exclude some women from feminism in the interests of inclusiveness. Imagine seeking support from other women, only to find that your husband or father had got there first?
When you allow our ex partners space in your feminism and give them platforms in your organisations and at your meetings, you exclude their wives, daughters, sisters and mothers from accessing these spaces and making use of resources that were set up to support women like them. Ā Prioritise women over your desire to have a āget out of jail freeā card to hold up against hostile accusations of bigotry
Above all, the most important thing that you can do to help trans widows, is to centre women and girls in your feminism. Ā
The idea that radfems are uneducated is so ridiculous like⦠Weāre not the ones getting our feminist theory from Buzzfeed š
The reason we are radfems is because we are educated.
if even one single teenage liberal feminist girl hate-stalks my blog, sees my posts, and starts to question the world she lives in, the rhetoric she sees, the choices she makes, then iāll feel okay.Ā
if thereās anyone who sees this post in some tag sheās looking at to make herself angry, iām here for you. youāre not alone, and you donāt have to believe everything you hear from liberal feminists.Ā
It makes me feel good that Iāve set other people on the path to radfeminism ā¤ļø
FEMINISM - THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM - Julie Burchill "Until January 2013, Iād never thought much about transsexuals. If pushed, Iād have said I felt vaguely sorry for them, as I do white people who pretend to be black or my teenage self when I pretended to be Jewish. Itās unfortunate to be confused about what you are once youāre past adolescence. And then they went after my friend. I donāt mind anyone having a pop at me. Iāve enjoyed copious fame and fortune from dishing it out, and not being able to take it would make me a sissy and a hypocrite. Also, kinkily, I enjoy a bit of verbal abuse, finding it bracing in the manner of a cold swim. But my weak spot has always been people picking on my mates; when that happens, I see red. Ironically, the piece that the angry trans-mob took exception to was part of a compilation about Female Anger, in which my friend mentioned that are women are sick and tired of being told to aspire to impossible ideals in all areas of their lives, one of which was achieving āthe body of a Brazilian transsexual.ā I was exchanging some bitchy quips on Facebook about the ensuing Twitter brouhaha while getting ready to go out when an Observer commissioning editor asked me - BEGGED ME! - to fashion them swiftly into a piece. When I said they were just for my friends entertainment and that I was busy, I was offered twice my usual word rate. Iām only human! I dashed off a quick piece, in which intemperate language such as *bed-wetters in bad wigs* may have been used. But I was by now an Angry Female - my mate was getting death threats and the police had been called in. I went out and thought no more of it. I awoke on Sunday morning to a right old rumpus in the small and self-important world of the media. Some Lib-Dem MP with delusions of adequacy was calling for me to be sacked from the Observer; this would have been difficult because I had no contract with them even though I wrote for them regularly - a situation which, the editor John Mulholland was soon murmuring comfortingly on the phone, would continue. Within 24 hours the column had been expunged from the Guardian/Observer website and I was never hired by the Observer again. Luckily, I was richer and tougher than all the bed-wetters (bad-wigged or otherwise) who both pilloried me and lost their nerve when it came to hiring me and survived my Wilderness Years pretty well, writing only for the bold and unbowed Spectator and Spiked until the Telegraph hired me last year. Looking back, I see that I was the first person to be demonised by the allegedly liberal, free-thinking Establishment who have continued to crumble in the face of the surreal demands of the Call-Me-Madam mad-men; in academia, in psychiatry, in medicine and now, most bizarrely, in the case of the Canadian beauticians being prosecuted for refusing to wax the scrotum of a repulsive cross-dresser. Whereas misogyny was historically Right-wing, itās now hysterically Left-wing. We see it best in those vile cry-bullies the Woke Bros, who have found a freshānāfunky way to hate women without seeming like sexist dinosaurs. Thereās a really good way to justify hitting women if youāre a Woke Bro - just call them TERFs and punching them becomes a brave anti-fascist action instead of the default setting of every cowardly wanker who would never dare to hit a man. 62% of women at university have experienced sexual assault, 56% by known perpetrators - a lot of them will be Woke Bros. Women report being choked by male sexual partners - āBreath-Playā to give it its innocent-sounding sex-name - to an extraordinary extent; thatāll be those Woke Bros who feel no guilt about watching porn because, hey, sex work is work like any other kind. (Except when it comes to their sisters.) Pornography-using men who call themselves feminists are so monumentally dumb that they probably delude themselves that the reason why the average age of death for a female performer is 37 is because they die of pleasure - having all those orgasms! An astonishing number of the showbiz sleazes called out in MeToo identified as feminists - Woke Bros to a man. But most of all, youāll find them taking the side of female impersonators against born females. The Woke War Against Women is well and truly under way and the Woke Witch Trials have started. So Iām extraordinarily pleased that I called out the poisonousness of the New Misogyny right from the start - and to be financially supporting this event by MAKE MORE NOISE. Iāve said it before - but I knew I was right. What a fascinating time to be a feminist!" What are your thoughts? We'd love to hear what you have to say! Want to come and see women speak about feminism's elephant in the room? Come to Manchester this Saturday. https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/feminism-the-elephant-in-the-room-tickets-64496743496
FEMINISM: THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM
There has been a surge of Feminist activism across the UK in the past year. Women are agitated and organised. We are finding our voice and our voice is saying NO.
Make More Noise are one such group, created to provide a space for women to talk freely and address uncomfortable truths.
Feminists are a diverse bunch and we don't always see eye to eye. Respectful and honest discussion is essential if we wish to build a unified platform to fight for real social justice. We can't bury our heads in the sand, we need to ask some tough questions and start difficult conversations. Social media is not the best place to communicate, let's do this face to face.
What are we not supposed to talk about? What is the Elephant in the Room? We invited our guests and allowed them to talk about whatever they liked on the topic of feminism's great taboos.
Speakers are:
Sarah Phillimore - Barrister and Disability Activist
Charlotte Hughes - Journalist and Anti-Poverty Campaigner
Jo Bartosch - Campaigning Journalist and co-director of Critical Sisters
Posie Parker - Women's Rights Campaigner and Free Speech Advocate
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Chaired by:
Bernadette Hyland - Socialist Feminist and Author
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Tickets are available here. If you wish to come but are unable to afford a ticket please send us a message and we will try to help you.
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The venue is wheelchair accessible but please let us know if you are a wheelchair user so we can ensure provision.
Look at this beautiful artwork from Sofia at Feminist Awakening!
We got banned from twitter but we are here on tumblr, on Facebook and on Instagram (makemorenoisemanc) where you can get discussion, links and memes. You can also read our content on our blog.
Fight back now!
Make More Noise!
One of the best things we can do as feminists is meet up in real life. What do we need to talk about? What are the feminist taboos? What are the elephants in the room?
Join us on 27th July in central Manchester to discuss issues and connect with other feminists. Tickets are on a sliding pay scale, but get in touch if you want to come but are unable to afford a ticket.
Let's get together. Let's Make More Noise!
www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/feminism-the-elephant-in-the-room-tickets-64496743496
A panel discussion exploring feminism's great taboos. What are we not supposed to talk about? What is Feminism's Elephant in the Room?