Lovers Lake changing location on the map behind the Wall - a theory
I've been thinking about this post for a long time, and all the connections which I'm going to try to point out, because the maps are so frustrating, but so interesting.
(thank you also to Naomi, Goat, Ace and others in the discord for letting me yap about if any of this might actually make sense!)
Firstly, let's start with the wormhole that might not be actually a wormhole, but still "only" a Wall, circle (a wheel) in the Upside Down
“While the existence of wormholes is entirely theoretical, they have captured the fascination of scientists and science fiction writers alike. (...) If wormholes did exist, they would be extraordinarily unstable. Their enormous gravitational force would rip them apart at the very moment they formed.” - Mr. Clarke, 5x3
let's go with Dustin's first idea what the wall around UD is a circle, a wall all around:
(remember the algebra, it will be another point later on.)
"So the lab created the wall?" - "No idea. But i think we should find out."
map no. 1: Dustin figured out with 3 points what proportion the circle around Hawkins would be. What's interesting is (and this I've seen in this amazing post by @zephyrcryptid) that the Lovers Lake is within the circle on this particular map! (Either it's a incorrectly printed version with the Lake pasted onto the wrong square, or... and this is the part I want to maybe focus more in this post - the lake is moving locations.
(I know, I know, that's "impossible", "that's just prop error", "it doesn't mean anything". Well, humor me. Why not. It's impossible? Maybe, maybe more improbable, but nothing is impossible, especially in a scifi tv show where they talk about wormholes existing, right?)
It's only later when Dustin finds Brenner's notes on what the Wall could actually be, he thinks it's a wormhole, (same as in 5x3 we as audience think to connect Mr. Clarke's class and Erica saying what wormhole is, it lead us to think it's the case of the actual wormhole, because we see it on the board).
then it's even more enforced with what the characters later discuss in 5x7, and what the Duffers showed us in the 'documentary' - but none of that necessary have to be the truth - as this show likes to play with the perception of what is or isn't reality, also because of the reasoning that a wormhole would instantly collapsed after forming, and because of the exotic matter - which still remains a big unknown in how it relates to the UD.
but what's more important and what I want to focus on here - is how this scene above with Dustin, is followed by Max searching Henry's memories and throught those she hoped to find the exit:
She found the memory of Vecna first targetting her, beyond the Rainbow room - which is in the Lab, and, as we know, the Lab is the center of the Wall). so the memory is literally hidden behind a wall, a wall Max even had to tear through to get to it.
and what's more - it showed us Mike first, sitting beside Max during a math class,
(here's the mention of the algebra again - with how the scenes follow one another, there's something to be said about them connecting together - Dustin figuring out there's a wall / Max tearing through a wall. // Dustin's "I didn't sleep through algebra" and triangulating the circle / Max within a memory of math/geometry class),
Just to mention in again, but more from Henry's pov - the memory, Henry's memory of Max, was hidden behind a wall, leading her there from the Rainbow room (which could also be said is Henry's own traumatic memory, as shown in the VR game).
Now to connect this to the Lovers Lake location on the maps:
In s1 & s2 the map had the Lake very close to the Lab!
But after s4 it changed. Eddie was by hiding by that Lake, Patrick died in it - opening one of the gates, and the teens went through there to the UD, but we never saw it on the map.
Now in s5 we have multiple maps! and the Lake is on the opposite side of the town than it was in s1 - so it could have been almost flipped, or mirrored (with the centre point of the Flip being the library) onto the other side of the town, and even more important - it's behind the Wall.
In 5x6 Dustin has the same but different map with the circle he made in 5x4, but the Lovers Lake shifted to a different place than in his previous map - now it's outside of the circle.
and Brenner has the map with the same circle, with the same location of the lake.
This could all be almost something to discard, because we haven't seen the lake in s5, the characters haven't talked about it, and it wasn't important to the story unlike in s4.
Except: 1.- S4 ended with the rift opening within the lake, possible breaking it in half. (another theme of a heart being broken).
and 2. the Duffers posted about the map location specifically for this lake, during like a second month of shooting s5 on Feb. 2024.. So why bring attention to it through a post like that, which was meant to say it might be important in s5?
(and why was it something that Finn liked?)
The Lovers Lake has the heart shape. Heart is associated a lot with Mike - especially through Will, but also because Mike is the heart of the story itself, the storyteller, the writer. And s5 showed told us more than not that Mike wasn't really... there. Or, he wasn't in the right place.
"because without the heart, we'd all fall apart."
and I think that's what happened - what was Vecna's plan.
S5 was lacking the heart, because the Heart was behind a Wall, protected but isolated (either from the beginning of s5, or post 5x5, or even already from season 3),
In 5x5, Will made the connection with the hivemind again, and Vecna used him as his spy again, his eyes were moving behind his eyelids, just as if he was building something again.
When Vecna took Will in s1 - and we saw it as a flashback in 5x1 - the library had something inside that looked a lot like what the Wall was made out of in s5, these fleshy blobs, in which seemed to be the Mind Flayer particles,
in s2 Will was building the tunnels underneath real Hawkins when he slept, it's possible they weren't just tunnels, but maybe foundations for this wall in UD? I'm not sure how to trust the 5x7 scene with the gang coming up with the whole plan, but if we take what Will said about Vecna wanting to merge the Upside Down/Abyss with Hawkins, this could have been some sort of preparation for it, already from previous years, just like Vecna said to him- Will's powers were strong and Vecna used him as his "builder" - maybe not just for the tunnels.
And if it's to be believed that Will built the Wall in the UD, I think the distance between Mike and Will (already after s2!) could be explained by Will "moving" the Lovers Lake literally behind the Wall (subconsciously, again), to protect it, to protect Mike. Thus, creating a wall between Mike and the rest of them.
Which brings me to the point that he wormhole rlly isn't a wormhole at all, but a hoax (there were already a few people pointing this out, but I can't find the post I've seen about it).
It seems now more like an idea of a wormhole that doesn't actually exist, and everything about the Abyss was an illusion once the Party moved to the UD after 5x7 and Vecna began his ritual.
Upside Down being still a shadow reflection of the normal Hawkins, trapped on the date Will went missing (that's both the space & time question!),
but with a Wall encircling the town - with a centre point X (M marks the spot) at the Lab (again - where the Rainbow room is, where Max's first memory of Vecna was, where Mike or Mike's memories might possible be stored. And on top of the Lab being the Exotic matter, which could possibly be connected to Will and his powers and to the UD being frozen in time on the day Will went missing)
What if the exit from UD doesn't mean Hawkins, but H as in location of the Lovers Lake on the map.
They still need to break that circle - the vicious cycle - a possible timeloop/illusion/the wall.
And a part of the puzzle is still missing - it's inside Vecna's mind.
Mike is the key and the heart.
In many other scenes characters have the Exit sign above their heads,
so the position of the Lovers Lake in this 5x1 scene above Will's (and in another frame above Mike's) head made me think that they're both the key to that particular exit -
Will could be the one to find the way to escape Vecna's illusion/vision through the lake - through water (which doesn't exist in Upside Down), but if the Hawkins and UD are merging, there's a possibility of the water flooding to the Lovers Lake, with it it could possibly flood the tunnels under the Hawkins as well.
The Upside Down works as a metaphor for many things, especially the closet/repression, lies and secrets, while water is very symbolic with starting over/ free emotions, and being truthful.
The truth that Mike keeps hiding from himself, repressing; and the truth that's still hidden from Mike - that Will loves him (the Duffers never answered the question if Mike realized that Will was talking about him in the coming out scene - the written articles weren't exact with their words from the video interview. Just like the "noise" comments weren't about byler specifically, but the Duffers focusing on their own story and not outside inputs. please once again, keep checking the sources of things you repeat over and over again, especially in the byler tag)
With the truth being brought up to the surface, the way to the exit should be clear. And maybe, if they escape Vecna's vision, it'd be cool to see another map after this is all over, and check if the Lovers Lake found its way back the original location from s1.
In the end, they will eventually die at Lovers Lake Sattler Quarry. I don't necessarily think this ending fits the tone of the series, after season 3, but I feel like it's something that could happen. Will's fake body was found there. Mike almost died jumping off the cliff. It's bittersweet but poetic.
Will feels Vecna's presence and pain, acting as a biological radar rather than just being "flayed". His connection with the hive mind is much more powerful than any of the Vecna's victims. Why keep Will alive? He is unconsciously helping Vecna's plan. To take over Hawkins. He is protecting Vecna from dying by serving his physical body as an alternate space Vecna can live in.
He is a phylactery.
"In Dungeons & Dragons, a phylactery is a powerful, magically warded object used by a lich to house their soul. It is the anchor of the lich’s immortality. If the lich's physical body is destroyed, its soul retreats to the phylactery, allowing it to regenerate a new body nearby in a matter of days".
But, his not an object, Will is a person!
"A phylactery can absolutely be a living being. While traditional D&D rules imply it must be an object, Dungeon Masters frequently use a living creature as a phylactery to create an intense moral dilemma for the players.
Players cannot defeat the lich without killing the innocent host, forcing them to find a way to extract the soul safely, like in a sacrifice?".
The host might suffer from nightmares, random bursts of necrotic magic, or a slowly decaying physical appearance.
You cannot say that he is Vecna but he is, sort of, part of the system. Without even realizing.
Mike opens his heart to Will, in a some kind of confession, and is forced to stab his heart as a sacrifice, which finally ends the curse. Afterall, "it started with Will, and it will end with Will ".
He might even loose a hand too.
The A side was easy. Take the B side to see the dark Christmas and the emotional new years eve.
Stranger Things official book with the whole party in their costumes, is about the characters fighting an ILLUSIONS army. And the real final enemy is Will. Who is possesed by something. To break the spell they literally have to kill him. So yes.
I just got blocked by a random person who doesn't like being contradicted and uses "aggressive behavior" as an excuse not to justify themselves. People create enemies for nothing. It's nothing new, it's always been like this. I'm tired of having to censor myself, or my words, because someone can't understand that there are a thousand interpretations for just one thing. I respect differences, obviously, and the word "stupid" doesn't make me guilt for anything.It's a way of speaking that I don't agree with, but that doesn't mean I'm calling you stupid or unworthy of breathing. No intention to hurt or irritate anyone. Just to discuss and try to convince someone even though I might be the wrong. Or, well, there isnt right or wrong if you think about it, it's all a matter of perspectives. Sometimes I forget that not everyone wants to be my friend, so I let myself be carried away by the desire to be listened to.
In some friend groups, saying "that's stupid" is understood as criticizing an idea. For strangers, it feels indistinguishable from "you're stupid." Neither interpretation is universal. That's one of the difficulties of chatting. Miscomunication.
Actually, I got pretty shocked when I discovered out of nowhere that many people love this song, like, to the point of considering it one of their all-time favorites in the catalog. It really is a awesome tune, and I feel like his introspective lyrics are part of the reason why he resonates with so many diferent people. The first use of thremin in a Beach Boys song, and one of the only pop songs to use it, in general, apart from the hit: "Good Vibrations", is impressive and bold to this day, I guess, and adds that power to a song so minimalist placed on such a maximalist and luxurious album! The most fragile song in the entire Pet Sounds, 1966. Smooth for the most part, until it's all broken up by the totally dyslexic and heavy chorus. Absolute classic about loneliness and feeling depressed, but never inciting the end of hope on life itself. "Cuando seré? Un dia seré" comfirms that.
2. Heroes And Villains:
Strange decision to a single, Heroes and Villains is such a mysterious track, that combines beautiful and complex vocal performances with a very soft instrumental backing track. The lyrics are a mix of the genius of Brian Wilson and Van Dyke Parks, dealing with the American Old-west chaotic and lively scenario, as it introduces our "character", an outlaw who fell in love and lost her romantic partner, seeking peace with her children, despite a life surrounded by chaos. Its a metaphor, in the way I interprect, to Brian's own life, – he is sucessful musician who he dedicated a large part of his life to music and now he just wants peace and quiet, have children (the SMİLE album is about a lot of themes, not completely finished. One of them: create a family and children, beeing spritually fine (healthy, wealthy and wise), and out of the spotlight (stopped touring, early 1966). Unfinished, yes, but super catchy and fun to play, the cantina version is my go-to...
Both Wilson and Parks claimed that the other had made up the title. They both agree the bulk of the song was composed in one sitting, tho. ‘Heroes and Villains’ is probably the best song in the whole project and one of the best songs ever made. There’s such a genius in Van Dyke’s lyrics, especially Heroes and villains / Just see what you’ve done. It has such perfect rhythm in the words. It pushes itself forward. That’s my favorite song from that set most of the time, but there are other great ones, too.” What audiences in 1967 would have made of the five-minute version, belatedly released in 2011, is anyone’s guess. With the amount if content avaiable, it could really be "Bohemian Rhapsody", 10 years before.
Heroes and Villains wasn't an especially "strange" single in the sense that Brian always intended it as the follow-up to "Good Vibrations." The strange part was how unconventional it sounded for a commercial single in 1967.
3. God Only Knows:
"I may not always love you/ But long as there are stars above you/ You never need to doubt it/ I'll make you so sure about it"
"God only knows what I'd be without you"
Right there, one of the most visceral love songs ever, an undeniable triumph lyrically and musically, in the history of contemporary music, absolutely unique and inimitable as a statement of true love and devotion. It is noticeable how innocent Wilson and Asher's minds were at that time. Both in the twenties, a life together was something new and sacred. There are no frills here. The message is direct and far from metaphysical and absurd comparisons, simple and profound at the same time. The horns are a thing to study too, sounding like a whole miniature concert presenting this masterpiece to the world. They are saying that the only time they wouldn’t still love a certain woman is after the world has ended. The love would still last forever, even if forever is only physical. Who in those rock days would have thought of something like this? Wilson wrote the song with collaborator Tony Asher in less than an hour. “I wrote ‘God Only Knows’ in 45 minutes—me and Tony Asher,” said Wilson in a 2015 interview. Though finalizing the arrangement of the track took much longer with the more intricate tweaking by Wilson. “Tony Asher and I tried to write something very spiritually,” said Wilson, who compared the melody of “God Only Knows” to that of “The Sound Of Music.” He added, “It was similar to it. Tony came up with the title ‘God Only Knows.’ I was scared they’d ban playing it on the radio because of the title but they didn’t.”
4. Cabin Essence:
Wait? The Beach Boys made a song about crows yelling and crying over corn fields? What does that mean? Well, for Van Dyke Parks, Cabin Essence can means almost everything, – mostly the U.S Traumatic History of Abuse of Chinese Immigrants and Enslaved People for Construction of Grand Coulee Railroad. Got it? Its folk, rock, fun and disturbing, like life, if you look at it in a great shape. We fluctuate between the soft verses and the booming chorus violins. Almost like IJWMFTT, a perfect balance between joy and despair. What a masterpiece!
5. Vegatables:
Goofy and dramatic, thats Vegatables to me. Minimalistic and brilliant executed, I can also say that. Might be a strange decision, but that really is one of their greatest songs. Unusual old fashioned Doo-wop with carrot bites and laughs turns out to be a ballad like no other.
6. Kiss Me, Baby:
The tumbling electric guitar and piano stands out on their catalogue for its simplicity, remaining of the early years of the band, while the adition of vibraphones and horns make sure that they are now a grown-up band with ecclectic and brilliant efforts to be more than just "a surf music thing". The last notes played on repeat by the trombone are unique too. The vocals, are really a show apart, and deserves to be classified as a wall of sound on their own.
7. The Night Was So Young:
Carl Wilson at the start, his gentle voice camly hits you with a low range, and then the Wilson brother voices comes in together, like a cold breeze of a night. The sythn is ghostly and omnipresent, in addition to the funk bass making it a real sucessor to Pet Sounds alike lyrics mixed with the late 70s pop sensibilities. I was listening to Love You recently and when it came on it freaked me out how I overlooked it every time!
8. Don't Talk (Put Your Head On My Shoulder):
Superb stuff. The landscape crafted by Brian during the first seconds is simple and captivaiting as hell. Well, the whole song, to be honest. "It's an interesting notion to sit down and try and write a lyric about not talking. That came out of one of those conversations where [Brian and I] were talking about dating experiences... I think at some point we were talking about how wonderful non-verbal communication can be between people", said Asher. The cellos goes and passes by us, in an angelic way, like in an musical theatre. Thats high quality music for sure.
According to 2023 interviews, seasons Four and Five were written concurrently. That is a fact. Because of Covid they were able to finish the season 4 scripts completely and had a season 5 outline done that they, supposedly shared with Netflix executives, who teared up and loved the ending. The point is, we have two endings.
Much like the movie Little Shop of Horrors, the 1986 film features two distinct endings.
After finding the plant, he choose to name it "Audrey II", after his coworker and secret crush, Audrey. As Audrey II, the plant, grows, it begins to talk and sing, demanding more human blood. In exchange, it brings massive success to the shop and makes Seymour a local celebrity. When Seymour's fresh blood is no longer enough. The plant demands whole bodies, forcing Seymour to choose between his morality and his dreams of escaping poverty with Audrey.
By the pressure of the company and the reaction of test audiences, the director made a happier and more commercially successful ending, made and distributed as the final cut.
The theatrical release ends with Seymour defeating Audrey II and marrying Audrey, while the Director’s Cut stays true to the original stage musical, where both leads are eaten and the plant takes over the world. A dark twist that people back then rejected.
In the end of the day, I dont think it matters cause we eventually got the two anyways.
With Stranger Things is no diferent. The ending we saw, commercially viable, safe, but not emotionally honest, works as the theatrical release. It is an option they create to satisfy the major audience. But are we sure the finale ended like the original intention?
Because it honestly sucks. Everything feels flat and plastic, a non inspired collection of ideas thrown away from the industry typical manners. It's awful. And feels terribly wrong. Cozy, but, that's something just off about it, you know? Like, like if it wasnt real, but rather a nightmare?
How do we get out of this mess? Thats nothing we can do, you know?! It's the ending, it is full of plot holes. Let's move on. It's over. No it's not. Just because the whole ST crew said conformity gate is fake we shouldn't believe every word blindly. There’s more coming soon. All roads leads to this, and the true error is to deny conformity.
Look. This season they often promoted two colours. Blue and red, inside and outside the screen. Everywhere. I know red and blue being morfed together was already a thing earlier on, but now, the mix is much less subtle.
Matrix, a movie that inspired a lot of artists, mentioning the Duffers too. In the movie, we are show how small choices can modify life substantly. The red pill and blue pill are iconic choices offered to Neo. Taking the red pill wakes a person up to the harsh truth of reality, while the blue pill allows them to remain comfortably ignorant in an illusion. Living a lie. A play. Being played by the system. Vecna. Mind Flayer. Society.
Its not only the UD environment. It's present in a lot in the human world. The other side.
Speaking of sides. We need to imagine the whole season as a standard vinyl record. It doesn't matter which one. Records have two sides, typically labeled as Side A and Side B. Each side contains a separate continuous set of music that is played on a turntable. We have two things, but we only got one precisely. One ending, one side of music. But there is more to uncover.
We have two sides, and we were fooled by the system this whole time, just like the fictional characters we have accompanied for 10 years. One ending, is living a lie, lying to yourself, and not being open to break free and proud. Fly.
Are Holly and the kids plot also part of the illusion, which means, they are a distraction from the real story they're willing to tell?
There is too much evidence that proves CG is true. And honestly, between believing what I saw was illusion, and there is a better ending ahead, I dare to believe the latter. Why not? A show destined for freaks and outcasts ending in such a low note. Completely screwed. Too easy. It makes no sense.
We are living in Netflix's meta-experience. We'll have to decide which ending we're going to watch, like in 80s movies. Let's choose a better ending for our own story.
I havent seen any Dark Christmas. An emotional New Year's Eve. The epilogue corresponded to 3% of the whole thing. That doesnt justify calling the ending emotional and uplifting. Which side of your heart do you choose?
Please be kind, rewind. Back to the good old days of friends and Dnd.
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