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Madeleine Cookie does NOT have Narcissistic Personality Disorder and i will prove it to you.
Madeleine Cookie was suspected of having NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) ever since the release of the "Halloween Commotion" costume set on October 28, 2021 (15:00 GMT +9) where in the story Strawberry Crepe and Madeleine Cookie have a petty ass fight and upon analyzing Madeleine Cooke, Strawberry Crepe claims to have found "the most ridiculous amount of narcissism". Riiight here;
We have no reason not to believe Strawberry Crepe's observation since all of their claims so far about cookies have been proven correct by the narrative. With them finding out that Clotted Cream was not related to House Custard by a glance and them instantly catching on that Strawberry Cookie has an artificial flavor upon a quick analysis it is quite apparent the game wants us to know more about certain characters by telling us what they're like, via Strawberry Crepe's super lens. This is meant to be true.
So you might be thinking; "well it is said in canon as matter of fact, we have no reason not to believe it, and canon is canon what can we do?" I will tell you right here and now why this claim is contradictory with Madeleine Cookie's character and how there is no way it could be true.
Now that we discussed where and how this was mentioned, let's get into it why I don't think it can be true but to do that we need to learn a bit about NPD as a whole.
What is NPD and what can classify as NPD? Quoting (but shortening the points for an easier read) the DSM-5 page 669 (what is the official matter and basis of most modern psychiatric diagnoses,) this is the diagnostic criteria to diagnose Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
Definition: A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents,expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements).
Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.
Believes they are “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or be associated with, other special or high-status people (or institutions).
Requires excessive admiration.
Has a sense of entitlement
Is interpersonally exploitative (i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve their own goals)
Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others.
Envious of others or believes others are envious of them.
Arrogant
So for anyone and I mean ANYONE to get diagnosed with NPD they would need to have five or more of the listed symptoms below. If you have any less, you DO NOT have NPD according to the DSM-5.
So let's debunk some of these shall we? I debunk all of them in a random order because that's how my brain works and summerize it after.
First of all, the one I really wanted to talk about is the empathy. Madeleine has a lot of empathy and we can see that plently of times but one specific moment I think really shows his care for others is this one in the story "Couldn't Care less...and yet";
This is a really important moment. Because here we can see Madeleine injured, but still saying to tend to Espresso Cookie's wounds first. This is crucial to our analysis because here Madeleine shows an act of selflessness. He puts someone else's needs before his own and this is something we would not see a person with NPD do, unless it was to benefit them somehow on the long run. Here we actually debunk two claims; entitlement and lack of empathy. Madeleine's empathy is shown in numerous ways in the story but this is one of the best examples of his care for others. A person with NPD would feel entitled to the aid, because "they need it more". They have to get it first and Madeleine doesn't just not claim it, but offers it up for his partner instead.
Now the 3rd point is pretty easy to debunk in my humble opinion. Whenever Madeleine meets someone new who isn't an enemy he always treats them with respect and kindness. In the "we've never met" story this is illustrated beautifully I think right heree;
When Madeleine meets Espresso he treats him nicely and not like someone insignificant. Even tho we all know Espresso is from the back alley, so by that logic Madeleine is in a higher class than he is. However Madeleine doesn't mention that, he doesn't act like Espresso would be lesser, neither he has any visible prejudices towards him. I think this rich royal kind of narcissism is something we're all familiar with; some rich guy going "DON'T TALK TO ME YOU FILTHY PEASANT!!!" it's like the most well known example of someone thinking they're more special than another person. Madeleine doesn't show any signs of that, but instead is really polite and cordial towards Espresso, he reaches his hand out to offer helping him on the horse, asks what's wrong when Espresso appears to be distant, ect. Little does Madeleine know Espresso is just being a d!ck in that story. 💔
Even with other people he just met he acts cordial and polite. He isn't afraid to talk to other people no matter who they are or what social background they're from.
Now, 1 is things where stuff gets muddy. An argument could be made for both the fact that Madeleine has a grandiose sense of self importantance. However, I am not sure if that's his personality or just his upbringing. Let me elaborate... Madeleine is obviously a Paladin and a royal. Paladins in the republic seem to be figures of authority, or soldiers in general who are very well respected. If we look at for example, Financier Cookie, she still has a sort of pride, that she's conceited in a way. We all know Financier is a very selfless person right? She's a stark contrast to Madeleine because she helps the poor, acts and is extremly humble. However in her voicelines and in her demeanour we still find this pride. "The light will bring us victory!" for example. With Kougn Amann Cookie too, it seems to me all paladins carry that kind of pride. Obviously I won't say Madeleine doesn't have SOME kind of ego, because yes he does but an argument can be made that all paladins carry themselves with the same self confidence. I'm not sure he as a person has a grandiose sense of self importantance as much as he's just used to being looked up to.
Now with that being said, there is an argument to be made that he does have a grandiose sense of self importantance. In "Last Cookie Standing" Madeleine's ego was in the way of the team all the time. Him thinking that he was so much better than everyone else genuinely got in the way of everyone else (and Espresso crashed out on because of it (reasonably so)). It is an unspoken rule in the DSM-5 that a symptom is only a symptom if it negatively affects your life/someone else's. In this case Madeleine's self-centeredness put his team in a disadvantage what counts as negatively affecting a secondary party. Because I think both readings of the character have some basis in reality and it is subjective how you view him in this way I will count this as hald a point.
Now on with point 2; fantasies. Honestly I might be off the mark on this one, but I personally can't remember Madeleine ever having fantasies of unreachable things and correct me if I'm wrong here but yeah, never once did he go down to wonder like "I will soooo be the best Paladin in the whole republic and spar againts every other Paladin and win all the duels" like we never see that.
Onto 6; exploitation!
. . .
if you think Madeleine is exploitive you might need to read a book or two because holy illiteracy. I'm sorry, but there is no instances in the story where Madeleine ever used someone to his advantage while disregarding the well being of that person. Madeleine is a nice guy all of the time he'd never do such a thing like come on guys :'))))
For no. 9 arrogance I feel like there can also be a point made that Madeleine is somewhat arrogant, because he sees his own values and beliefs as superior (See; Probhition of Doom update), his wealth and status often defines him and he prides himself in them (maybe a little too much sometimes), but to me it seems like a lot of the more violent parts of arrogance like being dismissive of others, talking down to people, always needing to be right ect. are completely abscent. I am also going to give half a point to this.
Now you might've noticed I haven't said anything about No. 8 and No. 4 yet. That is because they are true; Madeleine is shown to be envious towards others and to be requiring excessive admiration. REMINDER you need 5/9 to be diagnosed with NPD so these are not the end of the world.
This scene shows his envy and need for admiration both at the same time;
Here we see Madeleine being envy that people give Espresso more attention than they give him. The behavior he displays here always confused me because it was one of the few times I actually saw narcissism in his behavior. Instead of being happy of his boyfriend's coworker's (trying to keep this somewhat professional 💀💀) achievement he's upset that no one acknowledged his shiny armor and hair. Now looking back, his behavior seems more childish than narcissistic to me, he isn't mad that people are giving Espresso attention but he's sad that he's not getting any. It's very much giving older sibling, who suddenly got a younger sibling and now he's not getting enough attention iykwim. Not to compare my OTP a popular ship to siblings but it's the easiest way I can explain it. However Madeleine is still envious, and definitely in desperate need of attention here so yeah that's two points checked. (Also I just wanna highlight how Madeleine here kinda shows he doesn't ALWAYS have a grandiose sense of self importantance because he doesn't think he deserves attention if he didn't do anything like here he says "with nothing but a cloak" in the last screenshot acknowledging that Espresso's achievement was worthy of praise while he didn't have anything worthy of praise :( poor guy we love you Madeleine </333333)
Now if you followed my dumb way of going about it, you may realize that yes, we have gone through all symptoms!
So even with the most brutal rating I can force myself to bestow upon Madeleine he only scored a... 3/9!! Meaning that he is 2 symptoms short of meeting the offical diagnoses of NPD. Now, just as a quick recap:
1. Grandiose sense of self importance ; ½
2. Fantasies of unachievable dreams; X
3. Being "special" and only talking to famous people, associations ect.; X
4. Needs constant admiration; ✓
5. Feels entitled; X
6. Exploitive; X
7. Lack of empathy; X
8. Envious of others; ✓
9. Arrogant:; ½
Now that we've proved that by the basis of the DSM-5 he does not qualify to have NPD, why does CRK misscharacterize him as such?
At first I thought it may have been a translation issue, like in the korean script the word being used was closer to "egotism" instead of "narcissism" and the translator just didn't care in a moment of abscent mindedness/lack of knowledge on the topic. But lucky for you guys I made sure to track down the korean word too with help from my twin. I DOWNLOADED THE KOREAN VERSION OF THE GAME FOR THIS SHIT GUYS.
The word being used to describe Madeleine seems to be "자기애" roughly meaning "self love"/"narcissism". You might think our job is done here it means narcissism, there wasn't a mistranslation at hand right? Well, it's not that simple.
It seems to me they have two words that are identical (top two in the list) but one means "self love" "self attachment" meanwhile the other is just straight up narcissism. Like the disorder. Now I do not speak Korean so at the end of the day I can't be sure which word was used or which meaning is more likely in the original context of the sentence. It might've been a 100% correct translation or just a choice by the translator.
Now, presuming that it was a correct translation and the word in Korean did mean narcissism, why does Madeleine's personality contradicts that? I think I have a theory on that too. You see, it is entirely possible that Madeleine went through a couple of rewrites before the Oddusey, and before we got the character we know and love today. If we look back on the earlier written stories with him Madeleine does seem more narcissistic on those contexts especially in the costume story. Since that is the only time him being narcissistic is mentioned in the entirety of the game (as far as I'm aware) it makes sense it was an earlier draft for his character that ended up being abondened for a more compassionate character.
However... Even before he was released in CRK Madeleine Cookie was in no way a new character. He has been in the comics for long, long before CRK came out and I don't know much about the comics, but I'm pretty sure they've been running since fucking 2013??? That's older than my cousin. I am pretty sure most things from the comics aren't considered canon by most games but that doesn't change the fact that Madeleine was in the comics before he came out in CRK before his design was even finalized. Who knows what he was like in those, who knows how many times he changed since then? Now the question is what was Madeleine like in the comics I wonder...
My other less cool and interesting theory is that the writers just didn't care enough to write a good realistic narcissistic character and just gave up or wrote it sloppily. However that doesn't seem to be quite in line with the writers of CRK.
After this long ride, I'm sure you must be wondering; why did I bother proving this at all? Why did I wrote this long ass fucking post about it? Well the answer is quite personal actually.
I am a simple person I like to heed the word of canon and this single throw away line, this single word being used to describe Madeleine has haunted me for YEARS. I was living in the idea that my OTP was toxic because of Madeleine's narcissism; because anyone who was in a realitionship with a narcissist can tell you that those people are life ruiners. I've felt guilty for shipping them, when Madeleine BARELY depicted any symptoms for narcissism, when it was all blatant misscharacterization and I am not afraid to say that now. People like me, who are conflicted on shipping someone with Madeleine deserve to know that he doesn't actually display enough signs of narcissism to be considered a narcissist. He never was. And never will be.
Madeleine is a character who deserves to be understood and thinking he's a narcissist is not just a fallacy but a way to dismiss his interesting character. He deserves to be more than just the knight with "the most ridiculous amount of narcissism"
Thank you for reading all of this. I know it was a lot. Now after this heartfelt goodbye, here's your reward; my friends reacting to a screenshot of this draft(/post now). Enjoy. :))
I'ma reblog with the rest cuz Tumblr can't handle more than 10 imagies smh
Madeleine Cookie does NOT have Narcissistic Personality Disorder and i will prove it to you.
Madeleine Cookie was suspected of having NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) ever since the release of the "Halloween Commotion" costume set on October 28, 2021 (15:00 GMT +9) where in the story Strawberry Crepe and Madeleine Cookie have a petty ass fight and upon analyzing Madeleine Cooke, Strawberry Crepe claims to have found "the most ridiculous amount of narcissism". Riiight here;
We have no reason not to believe Strawberry Crepe's observation since all of their claims so far about cookies have been proven correct by the narrative. With them finding out that Clotted Cream was not related to House Custard by a glance and them instantly catching on that Strawberry Cookie has an artificial flavor upon a quick analysis it is quite apparent the game wants us to know more about certain characters by telling us what they're like, via Strawberry Crepe's super lens. This is meant to be true.
So you might be thinking; "well it is said in canon as matter of fact, we have no reason not to believe it, and canon is canon what can we do?" I will tell you right here and now why this claim is contradictory with Madeleine Cookie's character and how there is no way it could be true.
Now that we discussed where and how this was mentioned, let's get into it why I don't think it can be true but to do that we need to learn a bit about NPD as a whole.
What is NPD and what can classify as NPD? Quoting (but shortening the points for an easier read) the DSM-5 page 669 (what is the official matter and basis of most modern psychiatric diagnoses,) this is the diagnostic criteria to diagnose Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
Definition: A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents,expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements).
Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love.
Believes they are “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or be associated with, other special or high-status people (or institutions).
Requires excessive admiration.
Has a sense of entitlement
Is interpersonally exploitative (i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve their own goals)
Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others.
Envious of others or believes others are envious of them.
Arrogant
So for anyone and I mean ANYONE to get diagnosed with NPD they would need to have five or more of the listed symptoms below. If you have any less, you DO NOT have NPD according to the DSM-5.
So let's debunk some of these shall we? I debunk all of them in a random order because that's how my brain works and summerize it after.
First of all, the one I really wanted to talk about is the empathy. Madeleine has a lot of empathy and we can see that plently of times but one specific moment I think really shows his care for others is this one in the story "Couldn't Care less...and yet";
This is a really important moment. Because here we can see Madeleine injured, but still saying to tend to Espresso Cookie's wounds first. This is crucial to our analysis because here Madeleine shows an act of selflessness. He puts someone else's needs before his own and this is something we would not see a person with NPD do, unless it was to benefit them somehow on the long run. Here we actually debunk two claims; entitlement and lack of empathy. Madeleine's empathy is shown in numerous ways in the story but this is one of the best examples of his care for others. A person with NPD would feel entitled to the aid, because "they need it more". They have to get it first and Madeleine doesn't just not claim it, but offers it up for his partner instead.
Now the 3rd point is pretty easy to debunk in my humble opinion. Whenever Madeleine meets someone new who isn't an enemy he always treats them with respect and kindness. In the "we've never met" story this is illustrated beautifully I think right heree;
When Madeleine meets Espresso he treats him nicely and not like someone insignificant. Even tho we all know Espresso is from the back alley, so by that logic Madeleine is in a higher class than he is. However Madeleine doesn't mention that, he doesn't act like Espresso would be lesser, neither he has any visible prejudices towards him. I think this rich royal kind of narcissism is something we're all familiar with; some rich guy going "DON'T TALK TO ME YOU FILTHY PEASANT!!!" it's like the most well known example of someone thinking they're more special than another person. Madeleine doesn't show any signs of that, but instead is really polite and cordial towards Espresso, he reaches his hand out to offer helping him on the horse, asks what's wrong when Espresso appears to be distant, ect. Little does Madeleine know Espresso is just being a d!ck in that story. 💔
Even with other people he just met he acts cordial and polite. He isn't afraid to talk to other people no matter who they are or what social background they're from.
Now, 1 is where stuff gets muddy. An argument could be made for both the fact that Madeleine has a grandiose sense of self importantance, and that he doesn't, tough most people would say he does have some of it. However, I am not sure if that's his personality or just his upbringing. Let me elaborate... Madeleine is obviously a Paladin and a royal. Paladins in the republic seem to be figures of authority, or soldiers in general who are very well respected. If we look at for example, Financier Cookie, she still has a sort of pride, that she's conceited in a way. We all know Financier is a very selfless person right? She's a stark contrast to Madeleine because she helps the poor, acts and is extremly humble. However in her voicelines and in her demeanour we still find this pride. "The light will bring us victory!" for example. With Kougn Amann Cookie too, it seems to me all paladins carry that kind of pride. Obviously I won't say Madeleine doesn't have SOME kind of ego, because yes he does but an argument can be made that all paladins hold themselves with the same self confidence. I'm not sure he as a person has a grandiose sense of self importantance as much as he's just used to being looked up to.
Now with that being said, there is an argument to be made that he does have a grandiose sense of self importantance. In "Last Cookie Standing" Madeleine's ego was in the way of the team all the time. Him thinking that he was so much better than everyone else genuinely got in the way of his team (and Espresso crashed out on him because of it (reasonably so)). It is also an unspoken rule in the DSM-5 that a symptom is only a symptom if it negatively affects your life/someone else's. In this case Madeleine's self-centeredness put his team in a disadvantage what counts as negatively affecting a secondary party. Because I think both readings of the character have some basis in reality and it is subjective how you view him in this way I will count this as half a point.
Now on with point 2; fantasies. Honestly I might be off the mark on this one, but I personally can't remember Madeleine ever having fantasies of unreachable things and correct me if I'm wrong here but yeah, never once did he go down to wonder like "I will soooo be the best Paladin in the whole republic and spar againts every other Paladin and win all the duels" like we never see that.
Onto 6; exploitation!
. . .
if you think Madeleine is exploitive you might need to read a book or two because holy illiteracy. I'm sorry, but there is no instances in the story where Madeleine ever used someone to his advantage while disregarding the well being of that person. Madeleine is a nice guy all of the time he'd never do such a thing like come on guys :'))))
For no. 9 arrogance I feel like there can also be a point made that Madeleine is somewhat arrogant, because he sees his own values and beliefs as superior (See; Preminition of Doom update), his wealth and status often defines him and he prides himself in them (maybe a little too much sometimes), but to me it seems like a lot of the more violent parts of arrogance like being dismissive of others, talking down to people, always needing to be right ect. are completely absent. I am also going to give half a point to this.
Now you might've noticed I haven't said anything about No. 8 and No. 4 yet. That is because they are true; Madeleine is shown to be envious towards others and to be requiring excessive admiration. REMINDER you need 5/9 to be diagnosed with NPD so these are not the end of the world.
This scene shows his envy and need for admiration both at the same time;
Here we see Madeleine being envy that people give Espresso more attention than they give him. The behavior he displays here always confused me because it was one of the few times I actually saw narcissism in his behavior. Instead of being happy of his boyfriend's coworker's (trying to keep this somewhat professional 💀💀) achievement he's upset that no one acknowledged his shiny armor and hair. Now looking back, his behavior seems more childish than narcissistic to me, he isn't mad that people are giving Espresso attention but he's sad that he's not getting any. It's very much giving older sibling, who suddenly got a younger sibling and now he's not getting enough attention iykwim. Not to compare my OTP a popular ship to siblings but it's the easiest way I can explain it. However Madeleine is still envious, and definitely in desperate need of attention here so yeah that's two points checked. (Also I just wanna highlight how Madeleine here kinda shows he doesn't ALWAYS have a grandiose sense of self importantance because he doesn't think he deserves attention if he didn't do anything like here he says "with nothing but a cloak" in the last screenshot acknowledging that Espresso's achievement was worthy of praise while he didn't have anything to pride himself with :( poor guy we love you Madeleine </333333)
Now if you followed my dumb way of going about it, you may realize that yes, we have gone through all symptoms!
So even with the most brutal rating I can force myself to bestow upon Madeleine he only scored a... 3/9!! Meaning that he is 2 symptoms short of meeting the offical diagnoses of NPD. Now, just as a quick recap:
1. Grandiose sense of self importance ; ½
2. Fantasies of unachievable dreams; X
3. Being "special" and only talking to famous people, associations ect.; X
4. Needs constant admiration; ✓
5. Feels entitled; X
6. Exploitive; X
7. Lack of empathy; X
8. Envious of others; ✓
9. Arrogant:; ½
Now that we've proved that by the basis of the DSM-5 he does not qualify to have NPD, why does CRK misscharacterize him as such?
At first I thought it may have been a translation issue, like in the korean script the word being used mayhaps been closer to "egotism" instead of "narcissism" and the translator just didn't care in a moment of abscent mindedness/lack of knowledge on the topic. But lucky for you guys I made sure to track down the korean word too with help from my twin. I DOWNLOADED THE KOREAN VERSION OF THE GAME FOR THIS SHIT GUYS.
The word being used to describe Madeleine seems to be "자기애" roughly meaning "self love"/"narcissism". You might think our job is done here it means narcissism, there wasn't a mistranslation at hand right? Well, it's not that simple.
It seems to me they have two words that are identical (top two in the list) but one means "self love" "self attachment" meanwhile the other is just straight up narcissism. Like the disorder. Now I do not speak Korean so at the end of the day I can't be sure which word was used or which meaning is more likely in the original context of the sentence. It might've been a 100% correct translation or just a choice by the translator.
Now, presuming that it was a correct translation and the word in Korean did mean narcissism, why does Madeleine's personality contradicts that? I think I have a theory on that too. You see, it is entirely possible that Madeleine went through a couple of rewrites before the Oddusey, and before we got the character we know and love today. If we look back on the earlier written stories with him Madeleine does seem more narcissistic in those contexts especially in the costume story. Since that is the only time him being narcissistic is mentioned in the entirety of the game (as far as I'm aware) it makes sense it was an earlier draft for his personality that ended up being abondened for a more compassionate character.
However... Even before he was released in CRK Madeleine Cookie was in no way a new character. He has been in the comics for long, long before CRK came out and I don't know much about the comics, but I'm pretty sure they've been running since fucking 2013??? That's older than my cousin. I am pretty sure most things from the comics aren't considered canon by most games but that doesn't change the fact that Madeleine was in the comics before he came out in CRK before his design was even finalized. Who knows what he was like in those, who knows how many times he changed since then? Now the question is what was Madeleine like in the comics I wonder...
My other less cool and interesting theory is that the writers just didn't care enough to write a good realistic narcissistic character and just gave up or wrote it sloppily. However that doesn't seem to be quite in line with the writers of CRK.
After this long ride, I'm sure you must be wondering; why did I bother proving this at all? Why did I wrote this long ass fucking post about it? Well the answer is quite personal actually.
I am a simple person I like to heed the word of canon and this single throw away line, this single word being used to describe Madeleine has haunted me for YEARS. I was living in the idea that my OTP was toxic because of Madeleine's narcissism; because anyone who was in a realitionship with a narcissist can tell you that those people are life ruiners. I've felt guilty for shipping them, when Madeleine BARELY depicted any symptoms for narcissism, when it was all blatant misscharacterization and I am not afraid to say that now. People like me, who are conflicted on shipping someone with Madeleine deserve to know that he doesn't actually display enough signs of narcissism to be considered a narcissist. He never was. And never will be.
Madeleine is a character who deserves to be understood and thinking he's a narcissist is not just a fallacy but a way to dismiss his interesting character. He deserves to be more than just the knight with "the most ridiculous amount of narcissism"
Thank you for reading all of this. I know it was a lot. Now after this heartfelt goodbye, here's your reward; my friends reacting to a screenshot of this draft(/post now). Enjoy. :))
I'ma reblog with the rest cuz Tumblr can't handle more than 10 imagies smh
Drawing characters I love but haven't drawn before, or barely at all
Yap underneath the cut
I've been a biiit art blocked lately (aka depressed), or just felt shitty about my art in general (aka haven't touched a pencil) so I thought it would be a nice little exercise to draw characters I don't draw often. I also gave myself a time limit so I tried to draw fast with these I didn't spend more time than 5-10 minutes on each. It depends on the drawing how much time I spent on it tbh.
I like all of these characters a lot... This page was a labor of love
could anyone who played the new CRK update tell me how it went whether I should lock in and play it or not, cuz I'm lwk kinda lazy to play and I need to know wheter to sit this one out or not
Also is it just ne or the fandom has been a lot more quieter about this one...
So as a fan of the fucked music you hear your local autistic trans man teen listen to though Lemon Demon, Will Wood and Tally hall are often grouped together I think there's a very distinct difference in how lyrics are presented in their songs I illustrated here
Idk how accurate the Tally Hall one is since I don't listen to them as much but I can say with certainty the first two are accurate people who analyse will wood song lyrics fucking scare me.
izzy806
jacobvanloon
ellievsbear
jbbartram-illu
origamiaround
blakekathryn
pixelskylines
kianamaiart
