Not a Yungi shipper, but also not anti. Just not involved in that. Most of what I say below, however, fiction and RPF of the non sexual variety, and what is not fiction is opinion. Overall, you are right and I am wrong.
Yunho is Bad for Mingi, Actually
[Yungi fans I am going somewhere with this, just don't kill me.]
Mingi's problem in life is that he's unlikable.
[ducking for cover, please don't kill me, omg Mingtis! I like Mingi *I didn't at first *PLEASE DON'T DOXX ME PLS DON'T KILL MY CAT* but I like him now! I do!]
Being unlikable (wincing) costs Mingi, constantly, even in something as trivial and silly as his fortune telling in that one Wanteez episode, and his unlikability keeps being highlighted because of his proximity to Yunho. Mingi got the meanest possible reading by the fortune teller, by the way.
But if you actually set out what the fortune teller said, word for word? Mingi and Yunho are literally the same person. They are identical in orientation. This is why they're not particularly good for each other. Yet, they are treated completely differently, because Mingi either doesn't mind being unlikable or can't help it (due to autism spectrum, possibly) and Yunho is obsessed with making sure nobody dislikes him & quite often succeeds.
They are both ambitious, rebellious, dominant personalities that find it chafing to be under anybody's command. They are both (along with Jongho) a danger to HongJoong. Yunho doesn't deny it by the way. He jokingly (heehee haha) acts out slicing HongJoong into pieces with a sword as soon as he hears it, smiling cutely with his cute face. And Mingi backs up Yunho - specifically says, Yunho has leadership qualities. (We are going to talk about this problem that Mingi has, of saying things that harm him and only him in service of Yunho, because think about how TONE DEAF THIS IS to say this in front of everyone INCLUDING THE ACTUAL TEAM LEADER). Mingi then says truthfully, about himself, that he's not interested in this leader role, which is both extremely arrogant but also politically suicidal to say if HongJoong was the type to take this sort of thing to heart - Mingi signals that he too can do the slicing and dicing that Yunho just acted out, but he can't be bothered to. The Fortune Teller bitchily tells Mingi it's because he (along with Jongho) are too timid. But he didn't have to choose that word. Timid (소심) is the derogatory way to describe someone that if you liked that person, you might choose to call sensitive or soft hearted or kind.
When it's his turn, Mingi is slammed down as having Delusions of Grandeur, and subjected to derisive laughter, despite the many excellent traits that he has that Yunho lacks. The thing is, the way Yunho is described basically is Delusions of Grandeur: he "doesn't know that the sky is high" and continually seeks to get bigger and larger, with endless greed (욕심). HOW IS THIS NOT A DELUSION OF GRANDEUR? Yunho is also prideful, disobedient, with a huge drive to win at all costs. In other words, he's an arrogant, ruthless mofo with a capacity for cruelty. HELLO?
[Yunho stans pls don't kill me! Omg this is going all wrong. SOS SOS]
The traits that Mingi has that Yunho doesn't are actually pretty fucking damning to Yunho if you want to believe this fortune teller is telling the truth: creativity, analytical intellect, perfectionism, a transformative imagination that will take anger and pain from being ignored or compared to others into something unambiguous and clear (do you mean like, the ability take a complicated and painful personal experience - because the pain of being compared to others and ignored are UNIVERSAL - and crystallize it into a song lyric that millions of people will love, Mr bitchy fortune teller??).
The Fortune teller also says that Yunho's appearance is fundamentally deceptive - he looks kind and gentle (BUT HE ISN'T) and he looks mild and sweet (BUT HE ISN'T). If he wanted to give this reading to Mingi, he would've said, You are a sneaky fuck whose face is a lie. The Fortune Teller also refuses to say what Mingi looks like from the previous era - if it doesn't help that person to hear, he forebears. Given the general rules of 관상 Mingi looks criminal by the way. To a Korean person he actually does have a very scary face - which is the other way he's exactly like Yunho - the face does not match the heart.
OK now I'm going to go off on a bit of a lecture about how Korean fortune telling (maybe all fortune telling?) is supposed to work.
Korean fortune telling doesn't involve laying it all out like a readout sheet from an MRI or XRay machine. The Fortune Teller is supposed to exercise discretion, and be the wise counselor. And from that point of view, you can see the things this fortune teller said to Mingi as being advice to Mingi for himself, and what he said to Yunho as warnings about Yunho to the other members including Mingi.
My conclusion at the end of the Wanteez episode was that Yunho is bad for Mingi, which is why the Fortune Teller steadfastly just doesn't say anything about what they are to each other. He's reading the room. He's reading Mingi. Mingi was already so upset (WHEREAS YUNHO WAS NOT) that Mingi wasn't Yunho's special someone, so being told in the way I'm telling it, This friend you adore so much is actually not great for you, would not be something Mingi could digest in the moment. Yunho is bad for Mingi because he consistently shows up the ways Mingi is unlikable, or less likable, than Yunho is, to Mingi's disadvantage.
Do I have an axe to grind about the norms that govern Korean fortune telling? I do. Ask me about it and I will go off but it's not relevant to this present discussion.
Mingi's Devotion to Yunho Is the Ultimate Luxury in Korean Idoldom and I don't Know WTF Yunho Did to Deserve It (and I suspect He doesn't in fact deserve it)
Whether from being autism spectrum, being in love, or just being a very open person with a lot of confidence (untrammeled Mingi that just feels his feelings without avoidance is a favorite doll for me to consider and mull over), Mingi just really fucking super likes Yunho.
He likes Yunho, admires Yunho, relied on Yunho as a child and is eternally grateful, and thinks he still needs Yunho, and doesn't really bother to moderate his feelings or his expression of those feelings. It was so excessive when he was younger that his mother felt the need to tell him to cool it, to like his friend just a normal amount. Mingi's mom sounds a bit like my mom actually - well meaning, kind, but also merciless and cutting in her phrasing of her kind, well-meant thoughts .
In his relationship with Yunho, Mingi embodies this 사자성어 (Four-Syllable Idiom): 일편단심 (in Chinese script: 一片丹心) : Single minded devotion, but literally it reads The Singular Red Piece From The Heart.
And see, I see now why certain of my mutuals clock Mingi as being autistic. Autists often get very devoted, obsessed with, and go all in on just the one friend. This is both because hyperfixation is how Autists are, but also because it takes a specific kind of tolerant neuro-normal person to get past the irritating, unlikable, unmoderated parts of an autist's behavior to actually appreciate what's really there. Yunho's great talent is finding out what itch people need scratched, and fulfilling it to a certain extent. (This is different from Wooyoung's need to be Loved & Never Alone, or San's need to be Good & Helpful). He saw the huge need that Mingi had, what that need required, and fulfilled it, and is reaping lifelong dividends.
Case in point:
In the December 2024 issue of Dazed Korea, the interviewer asked Yunho and Mingi, "You seem so extremely different. How are you so close?" and this is what MIngi said:
민기 윤호는 제가 본 친구 중에서도 가장 열정적이에요. 예를 들어 뭐 하나 하자고 하면 “오케이, 그래 하자!” 이런 스타일이죠. Go 아니면 No. 또 제가 애매한 걸 싫어해서요. 그래서 잘 맞는 것 같아요
Yunho, among everyone I've ever met, is the most passionate. For example, when I say, Let's do something, he's the type to say, OK let's do that! It's Go or No. And I dislike ambiguity. I think that's why we're a good fit.
It starts out with a compliment about Yunho. It makes him look like such a kind, cooperative friend. (Rather than maybe an inert person without a lot of ideas or motivation of his own.) It ends with a self criticism of Mingi.
Yunho gave what looks to me like a pretty dark answer:
윤호 민기는 제가 말하는 걸 잘 이해하고 따라주거든요. 저도 그걸 느끼고, 민기도 마찬가지고요.
Mingi is great at understanding what I say, and comes along. I feel that, and so does he.
My devoted hound is devoted to me, is what Yunho basically says. My devoted hound and I know how devoted he is. To me.
SERIOUSLY?
This exchange had such the vibe of Mingi assuming that Yunho would be the one to actually pick him for their 'Please Pick Me" Wanteez content, but of course - OF COURSE - Yunho doesn't, leading to this:
Mingi screams, despairs, FALLS TO HIS KNEES, beats the earth, then points and hollers, YOU BETRAYER. Then this big boy toddles over -and he really toddles - to his betrayer Judas with the sweet face to scream out his distress. And Yunho folds in half, laughing.
sorry about the terrible gif - I don't know how to make these better, it's been on my to do list for a couple years to learn and I just haven't had time
Yunho is laughing because it's very funny - Mingi is playing a bit as much as telling the truth - but he's also pleased as fuck that Mingi wants his friendship/love/attention with such single-mindedness. Someone openly absolutely devoted to you is very, very seductive in any situation, but it's got to be especially true in Kpop Idoldom. A terrifying, heartbreaking number of these people, in this field, end up self-murdering in utter despair in the bloom of their youth, even as their careers are going well. Having someone wear his heart (whether for best friendship or sexual love or something in between) on his sleeve for you and only you in this extremely competitive, cold, cut throat world of being Idols? Priceless. Does anyone have this in any other group in Idoldom? I've only studied Ateez and Stray Kids - and this doesn't exist in Stray Kids. Please let me know if they had this in BTS or Shinee or whatever.
The open hearted courage it takes to tell someone, in front of an audience you know is going to be in the millions, "I want you to treat me as someone more special to you than anyone else" as Mingi does in the above bit? (Sorry again for the terrible gif). It's amazing.
To have someone constantly, consistently declare, You are the most important one to me?
What a fucking ego boost for Yunho.
The only other person who gets this sort of thing is Hongjoong from Seonghwa, but I've already gone into why this serves Seonghwa as much as it does HongJoong, and moreover, Seonghwa cajoles, manipulates and dominates Hongjoong in very subtle, intense ways. (ahem, Lego Dom Dungeon ahem). It's not clear to me what Mingi gets, careerwise, out of this open heart surgery he does on himself to express his love for Yunho on the daily.
What Yunho gets out of it is LEGION. Massive. The title of the above clip says, Jung Yunho, How Did You Survive Without Song Mingi?
HE COULDN'T.
With Mingi being how he is, Yunho gets to be the role he likes playing because it's familiar from childhood - the bossy, sensible, smart big sister. He has a dance partner in the way that ballerinas who get matched with a compatible male partner talk about what they're given- the male partner provides a frame, which both highlights their own dance and gives them a safe haven in the vastness of the stage, as well as scaffolding that allows them to climb the heights of the art - which in ballet means literally a body to climb on and gets them lifted off the ground etc. The fact that Mingi provides the 'frame' and Yunho leans into it during the start of the bit they're doing is not a coincidence. Without this 'framing device' that Mingi is willing to provide, Yunho doesn't really have a part to play, because being "the nice one everyone likes" can be played just as well by Yeosang or San, and it's a pretty boring role besides without something extra. Yeosang has this extra thing - he has a spectacularly unusual face AND he's very muscular for some reason underneath the delicate angel eyes AND he's willing to get naked. San has this extra thing too - he's Marilyn Monroe. Does Yunho have this extra thing? Maybe? Hmm??
In the relationship that's visible to me, Mingi is the giver, and Yunho is the taker. The giver may seem like the one that's losing, but actually, the taker is in a more precarious situation, when he is as reliant on the Giver as Yunho is on Mingi. And that might be why, being the clever, ambitious, greedy strategist that he is, Yunho tries to withhold something from Mingi at all times.
The K-Atiny below said, by the way, that Yunho was a whole new person, back to himself, as soon as Mingi came back from sick leave.
@ Yulmuel, in the middle of the page, says "I got into Ateez before Mingi's return, and I just thought of Yunho as being a really calm and quiet guy, but I see now that it isn't true."
Mingi's presence is what allows Yunho to be more interesting, or maybe, closer to his real self.
Tying it all the way back though - you know how the Fortune Teller identified being ignored/ disrespected and being unfairly/unfavorably compared to others as being a major source of artistic provocation for Mingi?
BEING BEST FRIENDS WITH YUNHO SUBJECTS HIM TO DISRESPECT AND UNFAVORABLE COMPARISON NONSTOP.
It also aggravates him, makes him think too much, and worsens his perfectionist tendencies.
But see, whlie Mingi is more obviously the artist and performer - louder (just, sheer decibel-wise as well as being a lyricist and rapper), flashier (as a dancer and a stage presence) - Yunho is actually an artist and performer too, and the thing he wants to do is actually subversive. And that's a fascinating urge that I am not sure Mingi has, quite.
!!!!!!!!!!! sorry for the tags below. the whole post isnt like that hahaha
#YESSSSS #im not sure if you feel negatively or neutral about this relationship #i share all these thoughts with u btw #except i guess i dont see it as solely bad #maybe because ive been the mingi in many of my friendships #and so im extremely biased #i have also been the yunho! #(am i toxic? absolutely. but im not getting into that rn lol) #and ive told u how i related to mingi and this is one of the ways #his pathetic devotion #i think #life is very hard! life is very very hard #and it can be so existentially lonely #so knowing someone can see you is freeing #and having kind of...a focus point in your life. a stability factor. someone who always stimulates you and makes life...interesting? #makes life more bearable #also! they are in a situation where they dont really have to grow out of this yet #like my heart has inevitably been broken many times because life happens and people move on #but theyre fucking idols #they have to stay together #i have literally said i would love to be an idol because my friends would be contractually obligated to live with me for at least 7 years #A DREAM!!!!!!!!! #anyways this shit is why i love them #like the group as a whole #they are messy and manipulative and emotional and if you're looking its very very obvious #actually if you're not even looking it's obvious #see: jongho #but i do think they reveal more than they intend and they just...have learned to roll with it as a group hahaha #ALSO!!!! BECAUSE I SHOULD ACTUALLY SAY
okay i ran out of tag space so i made a side blog just to put it in a post hahaha
i DO think mingi likes being unlikable! or i think…his awkwardness is more natural and comfortable for him, but it’s also a niche he knows he can fill. but when he knows the people around him are genuinely uncomfortable in a social situation, he will easily take the lead. if he’s in an interview with just a few members and they aren’t comfortable he just turns on. he still plays the loser part, but in a different way. it makes for good tv and you become the target, so you can shield the other people. you make yourself seem openly vulnerable, you make others more willing to connect with you. It’s the fastest way for me to build relationships with people, i find a way to joke about myself. it pretty much always works. because most people care a lot about how people think about them and im allowing a release in social tension. it’s also just…easier? people give you way more social passes, social rules bend more for you, and while you’re still maintaining an image and that takes a lot of energy, being the clown is just…more manageable? when you're weird, and you know you're weird, and you know fitting in isn't an option for you, this is just the strategy that will work.
basically, being a masochist in your relationships and in social groups does have its benefits if you're willing and you know how to play your cards right. the members have said mingi is the most social/has the most friends outside of their group, so i think he does.
i would link the interview that shows this dynamic perfectly but the title was like completely in korean and i can never find it when i try searching for it. if anyone knows it, it's during golden hour pt 1 promos. he's with yeosang and san and it's two older idols that have the talk show. they do a leg strength test.
ah one last thing (i literally have a presentation tomorrow) i remember watching one of their photobook videos. and i realized...oh! yunho likes having control, mingi is fully willing to give up control. and after that i was like oh i completely believe they're codependent.
When you mentioned Mingi being the clown in an interview to take the pressure off other members, I knew EXACTLY which one it was. What he was doing seemed so obvious (to me) and it also made me think that, even if he's not often at the forefront of things, he can be very good at being what the room needs.
1994.09.12 - HAPPY NAMJOON DAY ♡
there’s a million things i love about you but here are 27 in honor of your 27th, happy birthday joon ♡
[cr. qdeoks, dwellingsouls, namuspromised, moajmjk00, c_a_leaf]
