ellievsbear
Xuebing Du
izzy's playlists!
⁂
Stranger Things
hello vonnie
Andulka
No title available
No title available
No title available
pixel skylines
dirt enthusiast
Cosmic Funnies
Lint Roller? I Barely Know Her
let's talk about Bridgerton tea, my ask is open
No title available
titsay
Monterey Bay Aquarium
he wasn't even looking at me and he found me
Game of Thrones Daily
seen from Türkiye
seen from United States
seen from United Kingdom
seen from United States
seen from Japan
seen from South Korea
seen from Türkiye
seen from United States
seen from Germany
seen from Vietnam
seen from United States
seen from Germany
seen from Canada
seen from T1
seen from Denmark
seen from United States
seen from Türkiye
seen from Italy
seen from United Kingdom
seen from Italy
@poorquentyn
This week's F&B stream features a great topic w/great guests! Gemma (Secrets of the Citadel), Quinn (Ideas of Ice & Fire), and Emmett (NotACast) will join Az...
Hi everyone,
I’ll be appearing on one of History of Westeros’ streams on Fire and Blood very shortly at 6PM EST. Check it out!
If Jon Con were to have gone full Tywin and burnt the village at Stoney Sept to the ground, killing Robert B, do you think Tully and Strark would have taken the pardons like Toyne asserts? I think any peace with Aerys still on the throne would be utterly undependable in their eyes.
Well, here’s the thing: any scenario where Robert’s immediate threat to the capital gets nullified is a scenario in which Rhaegar has the breathing room to attempt something resembling a coup against his father, as he hints to Jaime right before riding off to face said immediate threat. Jon Connington, who commands the royal armies (and who has just made himself almost as much a pariah as Aerys on the rebel side), is unquestionably going to back his beloved silver prince, so Rhaegar would stand a chance at capturing the Iron Throne.
I think Hoster and Jon Arryn would be willing to talk terms at that point with Aerys out of power, although the new king might be pressured to turn his back on JonCon in order to quell feelings over Robert’s death (and wouldn’t the griffin’s reaction to that be interesting). Ned might resist Rhaegar at first...but he’s still going to find out about Lyanna and Jon sooner or later. Who the hell knows what he does then.
What happens if Asha or Victarian by some miracle win the Kingsmoot? Does Euron try and force Asha into marriage or try and off them both?
The primary reasons Euron wants to be Iron King are that the Ironborn have ships and are pliable cannon fodder. If the latter turns out not to be the case, my bet is he’d still try to take advantage of the former by breaking off with anyone who will follow him. That’d be easier if Asha wins; if Victarion wins, Euron’s going up against the Iron Fleet. Of course, he might just try to kill them both, but Euron doesn’t want to get bogged down in a protracted fight for the Iron Islands, because they’re just a means to an end for him. So if he can get away with a substantial amount of ships and make for Dany and her dragons, I think he’d do that.
What could possibly save Theon from being beheaded by Stannis ? We all know that the northerners will never forgive Theon for turning his back on Robb and for taking Winterfell and murdering Bran and Rickon even if it was in truth two farm boys and than it was Ramsay who did the deed. Do you think that revealing the truth about Jeyne Pool and Bran and Rickon could at least give him a reprieve ?
(TWOW spoilers)
At the end of Theon’s released TWOW chapter, Asha asks Stannis to take off Theon’s head at the local weirwood rather than burning him alive. The birds in the room go nuts at this point, one screaming “the tree, the tree, the tree” and the other screaming “Theon, Theon, Theon.”
The general consensus is that the former bird is being possessed by Bloodraven and the latter by Bran, and that the two are working together to intervene in this storyline. Bloodraven’s eagerness to get Stannis and Theon in front of a weirwood suggests that the greenseers are planning on communicating via the face in the tree (as Bran began to do with Theon in ADWD) and Bran calling Theon’s name in both ADWD and TWOW suggests that he may have taken pity on his former captor and want to spare his life. Bran’s a sweet kid, after all.
Of course, there are also strategic reasons for Bran and Bloodraven to get in touch. The Starks can’t rally at Winterfell against the Long Night if the Boltons possess it, so the greenseers have an interest (at least temporarily) in helping Stannis capture the castle. Moreover, if Euron Greyjoy is indeed Bloodraven’s rogue protege, the latter might be out to save and elevate Theon as an alternate Iron King to the Crow’s Eye, relying on the Torgon Latecomer precedent.
So what I think might happen is that Bran and Bloodraven offer to help Stannis take Winterfell from the Boltons, but only if he spares the godswood...and Theon’s life. The northmen with Stannis despise Theon, no question, but a divine intervention from their prince in exile might do the trick.
(One bit of weirdness, as many have noted, is Asha’s role in all this. She’s the one with the Latecomer wild card in her pocket, and she encourages Stannis to take Theon to the tree, but unless something wild happened in the hours between “The Sacrifice” and Theon I TWOW, she doesn’t know about Bran and Bloodraven. Is it coincidence? We’ll see...)
Fire & Blood, Volume I: The Year of the Three Brides
Fire & Blood, Volume I: The Year of the Three Brides
You know things are about to slow down and get a good deal more complex when you have an entire chapter devoted to one out of the three hundred years of the Targaryen dynasty…
(more…)
View On WordPress
Sorry this might sound like a stupid question, but do you think there's a chance Euron might have crossed paths with Gerion Lannister either on route or returning from Valaryia?
I hope not for Gerion’s sake, but it’s entirely possible. We’ll find out if Euron lands in Oldtown and unsheathes Brightroar...
Visenya's conception of Maegor was absolutely aided by blood magic, right? She doesn't produce a child for years, and then Rhaenys has a son which potentially squeezes her bloodline out of the line of succession, and then she very soon gets pregnant and confidently and accurately predicts it will be a boy. And the son she makes is just incredibly strong and talented at fighting, and his children end up as stillborn dragon mutants like Rhaego. There's definitely some dark magic at work here.
Yes, given the aura of sorcery clinging to Visenya, this is entirely possible.
When Quaithe warns Dany about the 'perfumed seneschel' is it possible that this does not apply to a person but a ship? The ship Tyrion is sailing on in ADWD is called Selaesori Qhoran otherwise known as 'The Fragrant Steward', or as Tyrion likes to call it, 'The Stinky Steward'.
Possible, but I don’t see why Dany should beware a ship, especially since the most notable passengers on said ship (Tyrion and Moqorro) are mentioned elsewhere in Quaithe’s prophecy. I think the perfumed seneschal that Dany must beware is Varys.
I really enjoy your analysis and commentary on asoiaf, and am popping by to say thank you for your consistent empathy toward Sansa. I read a lot of analysis of the series and so often run into Sansa-hatred that is utterly bewildering and also, to me, demonstrates a lack of understanding of what GRRM set out to say, big picture, with the series. But a lot of people do hate her (for whatever reason) so I also really appreciate that, in various asks, you do not back down on your points about her.
Well, thanks! I understand gravitating initially more towards POVs like Arya and Tyrion, who at least partially see through the lies of the chivalric tropes undergirding the feudal power structures. (Partially, I emphasize.) But for me, Sansa is the best POV in AGOT because her early chapters provide such a ravishing image of the world through the eyes of someone who takes the songs 100% seriously. That’s what makes the fall from grace that is that first book’s primary subject (from Bran’s very literal fall forward) work so well. You need the Hand’s Tourney to start out “better than the songs,” or it doesn’t mean anything when Ser Hugh dies and Sansa reflects that no songs will be sung of him. By the time you get to her final chapter in AGOT, it’s so damn clear what GRRM is going for with her character:
Sansa stared at him, seeing him for the first time. He was wearing a padded crimson doublet patterned with lions and a cloth-of-gold cape with a high collar that framed his face. She wondered how she could ever have thought him handsome. His lips were as soft and red as the worms you found after a rain, and his eyes were vain and cruel. “I hate you,” she whispered.
She has learned the truth: a padded crimson doublet and a cloth-of-gold cape don’t make you a hero, which has implications for both the social structure (in that all this wealth and power is orbiting around a sadistic child who just cut off Dad’s head) and the chivalric worldview (in that the imagery falling apart here bolstered that worldview earlier in the book). Sansa is literally seeing the world anew, and she has to start off in a bubble for that to qualify as an arc.
Moreover, her story in the following book (ACOK) is not about her deciding that the corruption of the intertwined society and song justifies nihilism, but rather a growing conviction on her part that she has to live out the values in the songs even as they are rejected by the world at large. That comes through most clearly at the Blackwater, when she internally defies Cersei’s rule through fear in favor of ruling through love, as well as singing for mercy to and from Sandor. I think this is meant to reflect the journey taken by both author and audience from naivete to disillusionment to resolve, and that it’s also meant as a pointed contrast to Littlefinger’s story, not a continuation of it.
While I appriciate what GRRM planned with Sansa I think the execution isnt flawless. She has many informed abilities we never see with her told have done well in her studies in many subjects and its tad unrealistic that Ned and Catelyn would kept her so shielded form the practical realities.
She still after so many books has not have moments of plot agency apart form saving Dontos and the ones with the wolves and the informing Cersei that resulted in many fans hating her, and had been just observing and used by other people. And while she is young she is still older than Arya and Bran who have more immedeatelly harder time with starving and prison camp and a handicap and a pretty much slowly loosing everything of old life.
So I do like Sansa a lot but there are many different things that could have been done with her chapters and how slowly the books have been coming out and waiting other plot lines to progress has left her adrift.
Gotta say, I disagree. Sansa’s moments of agency don’t have huge impact, but that’s because they can’t in her position. They still stand out emotionally–reaching out to Sandor, confessing the truth about Joffrey to the Tyrells, telling Tyrion she might never want him to touch her, getting Sweetrobin down the mountain. As we pick up with her in TWOW, she’s as actively involved in the goings-on in the Vale as could reasonably be expected. I think there’s a clear and significant progression from the Sansa we saw in AGOT.
As for why Ned didn’t prepare her, it’s the same reason none of his kids were fostered as he was, the same reason he doesn’t want to go to King’s Landing–because he’s so traumatized by what happened to Lyanna outside the safe warm walls of Winterfell that he can’t bear to burst that bubble.
I think people also tend to ignore or tone down much of what Sansa went through in King’s Landing and how that has impacted her, and then just look at her arc and conclude that she didn’t do anything. From the moment Ned Stark died, Sansa has been alone in a hostile environment. She has been subject to regular beatings by the Kingsguard in private as well as in public for the whole court to see. She gets preyed on by older men, is used and abused because of her last name, and is constantly belittled and underestimated by everyone. She’s threatened with rape and death all the time. Has to deal with a violently drunk Kingsguard in her rooms who threatens her at sword-point when the city’s on fire. She’s offered a chance of escape but is then forcibly married into the family that is actively killing her own and gets molested during her wedding night. And as the icing on the fucking cake, when she finally escapes the hellhole called King’s Landing, she is taken in by LF who projects some shitty ideal image of her mother onto her and continues to sexually abuse her (and I won’t even go into the abuse byLysa here).
And what does Sansa do? To invoke Cinderella here: ’have courage and be kind’. She indeed reaches out to Sandor even when he’s threatening her and dares to tell “Tyrion she might never want him to touch her”; speaks out for Ser Dontos; persuades Joffrey to not kill the woman before the riot; shows incredible courage during the BOTB through dealing with Cersei, calming the women when Cersei flees, and helping Lancel Lannister despite him mocking her before all the court; risks death by telling the truth about Joffrey because she cares about Margaery; courageously doesn’t kneel during her wedding but then feels sorry for her captor and tries to make it up; showing kindness to Kevan, Lancel, Lord Gyles, Jalabhar Xo, etc. during Joffrey’s wedding; continues to feel sorry for Margaery even when the Tyrells drop her like a hot potato; feels sorry for Joffrey when he dies; and shows bravery when fleeing that scene.
People look at that and somehow conclude that she was ‘passive’. That she didn’t stand up to her abusers. That she should’ve killed them and escape (like, how?). To all of those people I’d like to very nicely say to 1. read the books again and 2. just go screw yourselves. What Sansa did in King’s Landing was survive. To paraphrase Melissa Grey on Cinderella here (again): Sansa is in the process of surviving abuse, and the whole narrative of ‘she should’ve stood up to them’ is incredibly damaging and hurtful because it puts the blame on the victim herself. That’s not how abuse works. It’s never on the victim to somehow stop the abuser.
Sansa’s asserting her agency whenever and wherever she can, even when it’s detrimental to herself. Throughout her time in KL (and later the Vale), Sansa managed to stay kind. She faces all of that suffering head-on and decides to be better and not let it turn her into a cold and heartless person. She’s actively choosing to stand by her ideals and values even if the world around her doesn’t. Because a true knight should protect the weak and suffering, rather than beat a helpless girl in front of the court. Because love rather than fear is a surer route to people’s loyalty. Sansa’s deciding that the cycle of abuse stops with her. That is an incredibly brave act and makes her nothing less than a heroine.
Amen to this. It takes strength to be gentle and kind in this environment--she easily could not be. Look at Cersei!
I really enjoy your analysis and commentary on asoiaf, and am popping by to say thank you for your consistent empathy toward Sansa. I read a lot of analysis of the series and so often run into Sansa-hatred that is utterly bewildering and also, to me, demonstrates a lack of understanding of what GRRM set out to say, big picture, with the series. But a lot of people do hate her (for whatever reason) so I also really appreciate that, in various asks, you do not back down on your points about her.
Well, thanks! I understand gravitating initially more towards POVs like Arya and Tyrion, who at least partially see through the lies of the chivalric tropes undergirding the feudal power structures. (Partially, I emphasize.) But for me, Sansa is the best POV in AGOT because her early chapters provide such a ravishing image of the world through the eyes of someone who takes the songs 100% seriously. That’s what makes the fall from grace that is that first book’s primary subject (from Bran’s very literal fall forward) work so well. You need the Hand’s Tourney to start out “better than the songs,” or it doesn’t mean anything when Ser Hugh dies and Sansa reflects that no songs will be sung of him. By the time you get to her final chapter in AGOT, it’s so damn clear what GRRM is going for with her character:
Sansa stared at him, seeing him for the first time. He was wearing a padded crimson doublet patterned with lions and a cloth-of-gold cape with a high collar that framed his face. She wondered how she could ever have thought him handsome. His lips were as soft and red as the worms you found after a rain, and his eyes were vain and cruel. “I hate you,” she whispered.
She has learned the truth: a padded crimson doublet and a cloth-of-gold cape don’t make you a hero, which has implications for both the social structure (in that all this wealth and power is orbiting around a sadistic child who just cut off Dad’s head) and the chivalric worldview (in that the imagery falling apart here bolstered that worldview earlier in the book). Sansa is literally seeing the world anew, and she has to start off in a bubble for that to qualify as an arc.
Moreover, her story in the following book (ACOK) is not about her deciding that the corruption of the intertwined society and song justifies nihilism, but rather a growing conviction on her part that she has to live out the values in the songs even as they are rejected by the world at large. That comes through most clearly at the Blackwater, when she internally defies Cersei’s rule through fear in favor of ruling through love, as well as singing for mercy to and from Sandor. I think this is meant to reflect the journey taken by both author and audience from naivete to disillusionment to resolve, and that it’s also meant as a pointed contrast to Littlefinger’s story, not a continuation of it.
While I appriciate what GRRM planned with Sansa I think the execution isnt flawless. She has many informed abilities we never see with her told have done well in her studies in many subjects and its tad unrealistic that Ned and Catelyn would kept her so shielded form the practical realities.
She still after so many books has not have moments of plot agency apart form saving Dontos and the ones with the wolves and the informing Cersei that resulted in many fans hating her, and had been just observing and used by other people. And while she is young she is still older than Arya and Bran who have more immedeatelly harder time with starving and prison camp and a handicap and a pretty much slowly loosing everything of old life.
So I do like Sansa a lot but there are many different things that could have been done with her chapters and how slowly the books have been coming out and waiting other plot lines to progress has left her adrift.
Gotta say, I disagree. Sansa’s moments of agency don’t have huge impact, but that’s because they can’t in her position. They still stand out emotionally–reaching out to Sandor, confessing the truth about Joffrey to the Tyrells, telling Tyrion she might never want him to touch her, getting Sweetrobin down the mountain. As we pick up with her in TWOW, she’s as actively involved in the goings-on in the Vale as could reasonably be expected. I think there’s a clear and significant progression from the Sansa we saw in AGOT.
As for why Ned didn’t prepare her, it’s the same reason none of his kids were fostered as he was, the same reason he doesn’t want to go to King’s Landing–because he’s so traumatized by what happened to Lyanna outside the safe warm walls of Winterfell that he can’t bear to burst that bubble.
You know, I agree with the fact the emotional agency stands out, but I’m not sure, plot-wise, they don’t have a great significance:
Without reaching out to Sandor, his escape out of King’s Landing is gone, leaving Arya with the Brotherhood without Banners, meaning it’s possible she reunites with Catelyn and Robb… just in time for the Red Wedding.
Without confessing the truth to the Tyrells, it’s possible Mace and Olenna don’t have as solid a foundation of evidence with Joffrey’s character to back up committing to the Purple Wedding plan, thus changing up House Tyrell’s and Tyrion’s plotlines.
Without telling Tyrion she might never want him to touch her, he might do something he ends up regretting for the rest of his life and take Sansa’s virginity, having huge ramifications on the later Harry plotline.
Without getting Sweetrobin down the mountain now, it’s possible the Eyrie becomes inaccessible, cutting everyone off from Sweetrobin and Sansa, or possibly getting into an accident from the hazardous environment in their descent, changing up the Harry and Littlefinger plotlines.
All of Sansa’s actions have ripple effects that cascade into greater and greater waves throughout the plot. She might be a slow-burn arc, but even in those early-middle parts, she’s definitely had a significance on the plot.
I don’t think that is the criticism that chinoiserie-camille is saying, though. One criticism with Sansa that contrasts her with the other POVs is that her impact on the story usually goes as thus:
A affects B so C happens,
whereas the other characters go like this:
A makes B happen.
Jon decides to return to the Night’s Watch. Tyrion decides to murder Tywin. Arya takes the initiative on how to escape from Harrenhal. Catelyn alone decides to release Jaime.
Whereas Sansa is much more passive. It makes sense for her arc, but her story is much more acquired taste as a result.
That doesn’t make her “much more passive,” it just makes her story about doing what you can in a powerless situation.
I consider that the very definition of a passive character.
She isn’t the one coming up with an escape plan. She doesn’t come up with a way to assassinate Joffrey.
By definition, that is a passive character. She is not in control of her narrative - which makes perfect sense for the situation that she is in!
No, a passive character is one who isn’t making decisions. Sansa absolutely comes up with a way to assassinate Joffrey–flinging him off a bridge. She doesn’t do it, but the drama is still there.
And then for two whole books she doesn’t have a direct impact on any part of the narrative.
Sick burns are not enough to be an active character. And Sansa is indeed the Queen of Sick Burns (I think it’s fair to say Dany is a close 2nd though).
I do think that will change come TWOW, and that is one (out of approximately 237.5) reasons why I am looking forward to that book.
I just think that’s a shallow take on “impacting the narrative.” It turns out that Arya freeing the northmen at Harrenhal was meaningless in strict plot terms, because the Mummers were going to anyway. Does that make her decision meaningless? No, because it represented a significant moment for her and her relationship to both her identity and death.
I don’t see how that is shallow, especially when I didn’t even mention the Northmen at Harrenhal.
But if a character just has stuff happening to her, that makes her pretty damn passive in most people’s book.
But at this point, we are just going around in circles.
I brought up Harrenhal because it’s a good example of how reducing everything to plot beats misses what’s going on in terms of character and theme. It’s incorrect that Sansa “just has stuff happening to her.” She makes intense decisions, all the time! That they don’t result in her escape doesn’t make her passive. It makes her a prisoner. You can still trace a coherent arc from who she is in AGOT to who she is in the released TWOW chapter.
I really enjoy your analysis and commentary on asoiaf, and am popping by to say thank you for your consistent empathy toward Sansa. I read a lot of analysis of the series and so often run into Sansa-hatred that is utterly bewildering and also, to me, demonstrates a lack of understanding of what GRRM set out to say, big picture, with the series. But a lot of people do hate her (for whatever reason) so I also really appreciate that, in various asks, you do not back down on your points about her.
Well, thanks! I understand gravitating initially more towards POVs like Arya and Tyrion, who at least partially see through the lies of the chivalric tropes undergirding the feudal power structures. (Partially, I emphasize.) But for me, Sansa is the best POV in AGOT because her early chapters provide such a ravishing image of the world through the eyes of someone who takes the songs 100% seriously. That’s what makes the fall from grace that is that first book’s primary subject (from Bran’s very literal fall forward) work so well. You need the Hand’s Tourney to start out “better than the songs,” or it doesn’t mean anything when Ser Hugh dies and Sansa reflects that no songs will be sung of him. By the time you get to her final chapter in AGOT, it’s so damn clear what GRRM is going for with her character:
Sansa stared at him, seeing him for the first time. He was wearing a padded crimson doublet patterned with lions and a cloth-of-gold cape with a high collar that framed his face. She wondered how she could ever have thought him handsome. His lips were as soft and red as the worms you found after a rain, and his eyes were vain and cruel. “I hate you,” she whispered.
She has learned the truth: a padded crimson doublet and a cloth-of-gold cape don’t make you a hero, which has implications for both the social structure (in that all this wealth and power is orbiting around a sadistic child who just cut off Dad’s head) and the chivalric worldview (in that the imagery falling apart here bolstered that worldview earlier in the book). Sansa is literally seeing the world anew, and she has to start off in a bubble for that to qualify as an arc.
Moreover, her story in the following book (ACOK) is not about her deciding that the corruption of the intertwined society and song justifies nihilism, but rather a growing conviction on her part that she has to live out the values in the songs even as they are rejected by the world at large. That comes through most clearly at the Blackwater, when she internally defies Cersei’s rule through fear in favor of ruling through love, as well as singing for mercy to and from Sandor. I think this is meant to reflect the journey taken by both author and audience from naivete to disillusionment to resolve, and that it’s also meant as a pointed contrast to Littlefinger’s story, not a continuation of it.
While I appriciate what GRRM planned with Sansa I think the execution isnt flawless. She has many informed abilities we never see with her told have done well in her studies in many subjects and its tad unrealistic that Ned and Catelyn would kept her so shielded form the practical realities.
She still after so many books has not have moments of plot agency apart form saving Dontos and the ones with the wolves and the informing Cersei that resulted in many fans hating her, and had been just observing and used by other people. And while she is young she is still older than Arya and Bran who have more immedeatelly harder time with starving and prison camp and a handicap and a pretty much slowly loosing everything of old life.
So I do like Sansa a lot but there are many different things that could have been done with her chapters and how slowly the books have been coming out and waiting other plot lines to progress has left her adrift.
Gotta say, I disagree. Sansa’s moments of agency don’t have huge impact, but that’s because they can’t in her position. They still stand out emotionally–reaching out to Sandor, confessing the truth about Joffrey to the Tyrells, telling Tyrion she might never want him to touch her, getting Sweetrobin down the mountain. As we pick up with her in TWOW, she’s as actively involved in the goings-on in the Vale as could reasonably be expected. I think there’s a clear and significant progression from the Sansa we saw in AGOT.
As for why Ned didn’t prepare her, it’s the same reason none of his kids were fostered as he was, the same reason he doesn’t want to go to King’s Landing–because he’s so traumatized by what happened to Lyanna outside the safe warm walls of Winterfell that he can’t bear to burst that bubble.
You know, I agree with the fact the emotional agency stands out, but I’m not sure, plot-wise, they don’t have a great significance:
Without reaching out to Sandor, his escape out of King’s Landing is gone, leaving Arya with the Brotherhood without Banners, meaning it’s possible she reunites with Catelyn and Robb… just in time for the Red Wedding.
Without confessing the truth to the Tyrells, it’s possible Mace and Olenna don’t have as solid a foundation of evidence with Joffrey’s character to back up committing to the Purple Wedding plan, thus changing up House Tyrell’s and Tyrion’s plotlines.
Without telling Tyrion she might never want him to touch her, he might do something he ends up regretting for the rest of his life and take Sansa’s virginity, having huge ramifications on the later Harry plotline.
Without getting Sweetrobin down the mountain now, it’s possible the Eyrie becomes inaccessible, cutting everyone off from Sweetrobin and Sansa, or possibly getting into an accident from the hazardous environment in their descent, changing up the Harry and Littlefinger plotlines.
All of Sansa’s actions have ripple effects that cascade into greater and greater waves throughout the plot. She might be a slow-burn arc, but even in those early-middle parts, she’s definitely had a significance on the plot.
I don’t think that is the criticism that chinoiserie-camille is saying, though. One criticism with Sansa that contrasts her with the other POVs is that her impact on the story usually goes as thus:
A affects B so C happens,
whereas the other characters go like this:
A makes B happen.
Jon decides to return to the Night’s Watch. Tyrion decides to murder Tywin. Arya takes the initiative on how to escape from Harrenhal. Catelyn alone decides to release Jaime.
Whereas Sansa is much more passive. It makes sense for her arc, but her story is much more acquired taste as a result.
That doesn’t make her “much more passive,” it just makes her story about doing what you can in a powerless situation.
I consider that the very definition of a passive character.
She isn’t the one coming up with an escape plan. She doesn’t come up with a way to assassinate Joffrey.
By definition, that is a passive character. She is not in control of her narrative - which makes perfect sense for the situation that she is in!
No, a passive character is one who isn’t making decisions. Sansa absolutely comes up with a way to assassinate Joffrey–flinging him off a bridge. She doesn’t do it, but the drama is still there.
And then for two whole books she doesn’t have a direct impact on any part of the narrative.
Sick burns are not enough to be an active character. And Sansa is indeed the Queen of Sick Burns (I think it’s fair to say Dany is a close 2nd though).
I do think that will change come TWOW, and that is one (out of approximately 237.5) reasons why I am looking forward to that book.
I just think that’s a shallow take on “impacting the narrative.” It turns out that Arya freeing the northmen at Harrenhal was meaningless in strict plot terms, because the Mummers were going to anyway. Does that make her decision meaningless? No, because it represented a significant moment for her and her relationship to both her identity and death.
I really enjoy your analysis and commentary on asoiaf, and am popping by to say thank you for your consistent empathy toward Sansa. I read a lot of analysis of the series and so often run into Sansa-hatred that is utterly bewildering and also, to me, demonstrates a lack of understanding of what GRRM set out to say, big picture, with the series. But a lot of people do hate her (for whatever reason) so I also really appreciate that, in various asks, you do not back down on your points about her.
Well, thanks! I understand gravitating initially more towards POVs like Arya and Tyrion, who at least partially see through the lies of the chivalric tropes undergirding the feudal power structures. (Partially, I emphasize.) But for me, Sansa is the best POV in AGOT because her early chapters provide such a ravishing image of the world through the eyes of someone who takes the songs 100% seriously. That’s what makes the fall from grace that is that first book’s primary subject (from Bran’s very literal fall forward) work so well. You need the Hand’s Tourney to start out “better than the songs,” or it doesn’t mean anything when Ser Hugh dies and Sansa reflects that no songs will be sung of him. By the time you get to her final chapter in AGOT, it’s so damn clear what GRRM is going for with her character:
Sansa stared at him, seeing him for the first time. He was wearing a padded crimson doublet patterned with lions and a cloth-of-gold cape with a high collar that framed his face. She wondered how she could ever have thought him handsome. His lips were as soft and red as the worms you found after a rain, and his eyes were vain and cruel. “I hate you,” she whispered.
She has learned the truth: a padded crimson doublet and a cloth-of-gold cape don’t make you a hero, which has implications for both the social structure (in that all this wealth and power is orbiting around a sadistic child who just cut off Dad’s head) and the chivalric worldview (in that the imagery falling apart here bolstered that worldview earlier in the book). Sansa is literally seeing the world anew, and she has to start off in a bubble for that to qualify as an arc.
Moreover, her story in the following book (ACOK) is not about her deciding that the corruption of the intertwined society and song justifies nihilism, but rather a growing conviction on her part that she has to live out the values in the songs even as they are rejected by the world at large. That comes through most clearly at the Blackwater, when she internally defies Cersei’s rule through fear in favor of ruling through love, as well as singing for mercy to and from Sandor. I think this is meant to reflect the journey taken by both author and audience from naivete to disillusionment to resolve, and that it’s also meant as a pointed contrast to Littlefinger’s story, not a continuation of it.
While I appriciate what GRRM planned with Sansa I think the execution isnt flawless. She has many informed abilities we never see with her told have done well in her studies in many subjects and its tad unrealistic that Ned and Catelyn would kept her so shielded form the practical realities.
She still after so many books has not have moments of plot agency apart form saving Dontos and the ones with the wolves and the informing Cersei that resulted in many fans hating her, and had been just observing and used by other people. And while she is young she is still older than Arya and Bran who have more immedeatelly harder time with starving and prison camp and a handicap and a pretty much slowly loosing everything of old life.
So I do like Sansa a lot but there are many different things that could have been done with her chapters and how slowly the books have been coming out and waiting other plot lines to progress has left her adrift.
Gotta say, I disagree. Sansa’s moments of agency don’t have huge impact, but that’s because they can’t in her position. They still stand out emotionally–reaching out to Sandor, confessing the truth about Joffrey to the Tyrells, telling Tyrion she might never want him to touch her, getting Sweetrobin down the mountain. As we pick up with her in TWOW, she’s as actively involved in the goings-on in the Vale as could reasonably be expected. I think there’s a clear and significant progression from the Sansa we saw in AGOT.
As for why Ned didn’t prepare her, it’s the same reason none of his kids were fostered as he was, the same reason he doesn’t want to go to King’s Landing–because he’s so traumatized by what happened to Lyanna outside the safe warm walls of Winterfell that he can’t bear to burst that bubble.
You know, I agree with the fact the emotional agency stands out, but I’m not sure, plot-wise, they don’t have a great significance:
Without reaching out to Sandor, his escape out of King’s Landing is gone, leaving Arya with the Brotherhood without Banners, meaning it’s possible she reunites with Catelyn and Robb… just in time for the Red Wedding.
Without confessing the truth to the Tyrells, it’s possible Mace and Olenna don’t have as solid a foundation of evidence with Joffrey’s character to back up committing to the Purple Wedding plan, thus changing up House Tyrell’s and Tyrion’s plotlines.
Without telling Tyrion she might never want him to touch her, he might do something he ends up regretting for the rest of his life and take Sansa’s virginity, having huge ramifications on the later Harry plotline.
Without getting Sweetrobin down the mountain now, it’s possible the Eyrie becomes inaccessible, cutting everyone off from Sweetrobin and Sansa, or possibly getting into an accident from the hazardous environment in their descent, changing up the Harry and Littlefinger plotlines.
All of Sansa’s actions have ripple effects that cascade into greater and greater waves throughout the plot. She might be a slow-burn arc, but even in those early-middle parts, she’s definitely had a significance on the plot.
I don’t think that is the criticism that chinoiserie-camille is saying, though. One criticism with Sansa that contrasts her with the other POVs is that her impact on the story usually goes as thus:
A affects B so C happens,
whereas the other characters go like this:
A makes B happen.
Jon decides to return to the Night’s Watch. Tyrion decides to murder Tywin. Arya takes the initiative on how to escape from Harrenhal. Catelyn alone decides to release Jaime.
Whereas Sansa is much more passive. It makes sense for her arc, but her story is much more acquired taste as a result.
That doesn’t make her “much more passive,” it just makes her story about doing what you can in a powerless situation.
I consider that the very definition of a passive character.
She isn’t the one coming up with an escape plan. She doesn’t come up with a way to assassinate Joffrey.
By definition, that is a passive character. She is not in control of her narrative - which makes perfect sense for the situation that she is in!
No, a passive character is one who isn’t making decisions. Sansa absolutely comes up with a way to assassinate Joffrey--flinging him off a bridge. She doesn’t do it, but the drama is still there.
I really enjoy your analysis and commentary on asoiaf, and am popping by to say thank you for your consistent empathy toward Sansa. I read a lot of analysis of the series and so often run into Sansa-hatred that is utterly bewildering and also, to me, demonstrates a lack of understanding of what GRRM set out to say, big picture, with the series. But a lot of people do hate her (for whatever reason) so I also really appreciate that, in various asks, you do not back down on your points about her.
Well, thanks! I understand gravitating initially more towards POVs like Arya and Tyrion, who at least partially see through the lies of the chivalric tropes undergirding the feudal power structures. (Partially, I emphasize.) But for me, Sansa is the best POV in AGOT because her early chapters provide such a ravishing image of the world through the eyes of someone who takes the songs 100% seriously. That’s what makes the fall from grace that is that first book’s primary subject (from Bran’s very literal fall forward) work so well. You need the Hand’s Tourney to start out “better than the songs,” or it doesn’t mean anything when Ser Hugh dies and Sansa reflects that no songs will be sung of him. By the time you get to her final chapter in AGOT, it’s so damn clear what GRRM is going for with her character:
Sansa stared at him, seeing him for the first time. He was wearing a padded crimson doublet patterned with lions and a cloth-of-gold cape with a high collar that framed his face. She wondered how she could ever have thought him handsome. His lips were as soft and red as the worms you found after a rain, and his eyes were vain and cruel. “I hate you,” she whispered.
She has learned the truth: a padded crimson doublet and a cloth-of-gold cape don’t make you a hero, which has implications for both the social structure (in that all this wealth and power is orbiting around a sadistic child who just cut off Dad’s head) and the chivalric worldview (in that the imagery falling apart here bolstered that worldview earlier in the book). Sansa is literally seeing the world anew, and she has to start off in a bubble for that to qualify as an arc.
Moreover, her story in the following book (ACOK) is not about her deciding that the corruption of the intertwined society and song justifies nihilism, but rather a growing conviction on her part that she has to live out the values in the songs even as they are rejected by the world at large. That comes through most clearly at the Blackwater, when she internally defies Cersei’s rule through fear in favor of ruling through love, as well as singing for mercy to and from Sandor. I think this is meant to reflect the journey taken by both author and audience from naivete to disillusionment to resolve, and that it’s also meant as a pointed contrast to Littlefinger’s story, not a continuation of it.
While I appriciate what GRRM planned with Sansa I think the execution isnt flawless. She has many informed abilities we never see with her told have done well in her studies in many subjects and its tad unrealistic that Ned and Catelyn would kept her so shielded form the practical realities.
She still after so many books has not have moments of plot agency apart form saving Dontos and the ones with the wolves and the informing Cersei that resulted in many fans hating her, and had been just observing and used by other people. And while she is young she is still older than Arya and Bran who have more immedeatelly harder time with starving and prison camp and a handicap and a pretty much slowly loosing everything of old life.
So I do like Sansa a lot but there are many different things that could have been done with her chapters and how slowly the books have been coming out and waiting other plot lines to progress has left her adrift.
Gotta say, I disagree. Sansa’s moments of agency don’t have huge impact, but that’s because they can’t in her position. They still stand out emotionally–reaching out to Sandor, confessing the truth about Joffrey to the Tyrells, telling Tyrion she might never want him to touch her, getting Sweetrobin down the mountain. As we pick up with her in TWOW, she’s as actively involved in the goings-on in the Vale as could reasonably be expected. I think there’s a clear and significant progression from the Sansa we saw in AGOT.
As for why Ned didn’t prepare her, it’s the same reason none of his kids were fostered as he was, the same reason he doesn’t want to go to King’s Landing–because he’s so traumatized by what happened to Lyanna outside the safe warm walls of Winterfell that he can’t bear to burst that bubble.
You know, I agree with the fact the emotional agency stands out, but I’m not sure, plot-wise, they don’t have a great significance:
Without reaching out to Sandor, his escape out of King’s Landing is gone, leaving Arya with the Brotherhood without Banners, meaning it’s possible she reunites with Catelyn and Robb… just in time for the Red Wedding.
Without confessing the truth to the Tyrells, it’s possible Mace and Olenna don’t have as solid a foundation of evidence with Joffrey’s character to back up committing to the Purple Wedding plan, thus changing up House Tyrell’s and Tyrion’s plotlines.
Without telling Tyrion she might never want him to touch her, he might do something he ends up regretting for the rest of his life and take Sansa’s virginity, having huge ramifications on the later Harry plotline.
Without getting Sweetrobin down the mountain now, it’s possible the Eyrie becomes inaccessible, cutting everyone off from Sweetrobin and Sansa, or possibly getting into an accident from the hazardous environment in their descent, changing up the Harry and Littlefinger plotlines.
All of Sansa’s actions have ripple effects that cascade into greater and greater waves throughout the plot. She might be a slow-burn arc, but even in those early-middle parts, she’s definitely had a significance on the plot.
I don’t think that is the criticism that chinoiserie-camille is saying, though. One criticism with Sansa that contrasts her with the other POVs is that her impact on the story usually goes as thus:
A affects B so C happens,
whereas the other characters go like this:
A makes B happen.
Jon decides to return to the Night’s Watch. Tyrion decides to murder Tywin. Arya takes the initiative on how to escape from Harrenhal. Catelyn alone decides to release Jaime.
Whereas Sansa is much more passive. It makes sense for her arc, but her story is much more acquired taste as a result.
That doesn’t make her “much more passive,” it just makes her story about doing what you can in a powerless situation.
I really enjoy your analysis and commentary on asoiaf, and am popping by to say thank you for your consistent empathy toward Sansa. I read a lot of analysis of the series and so often run into Sansa-hatred that is utterly bewildering and also, to me, demonstrates a lack of understanding of what GRRM set out to say, big picture, with the series. But a lot of people do hate her (for whatever reason) so I also really appreciate that, in various asks, you do not back down on your points about her.
Well, thanks! I understand gravitating initially more towards POVs like Arya and Tyrion, who at least partially see through the lies of the chivalric tropes undergirding the feudal power structures. (Partially, I emphasize.) But for me, Sansa is the best POV in AGOT because her early chapters provide such a ravishing image of the world through the eyes of someone who takes the songs 100% seriously. That’s what makes the fall from grace that is that first book’s primary subject (from Bran’s very literal fall forward) work so well. You need the Hand’s Tourney to start out “better than the songs,” or it doesn’t mean anything when Ser Hugh dies and Sansa reflects that no songs will be sung of him. By the time you get to her final chapter in AGOT, it’s so damn clear what GRRM is going for with her character:
Sansa stared at him, seeing him for the first time. He was wearing a padded crimson doublet patterned with lions and a cloth-of-gold cape with a high collar that framed his face. She wondered how she could ever have thought him handsome. His lips were as soft and red as the worms you found after a rain, and his eyes were vain and cruel. “I hate you,” she whispered.
She has learned the truth: a padded crimson doublet and a cloth-of-gold cape don’t make you a hero, which has implications for both the social structure (in that all this wealth and power is orbiting around a sadistic child who just cut off Dad’s head) and the chivalric worldview (in that the imagery falling apart here bolstered that worldview earlier in the book). Sansa is literally seeing the world anew, and she has to start off in a bubble for that to qualify as an arc.
Moreover, her story in the following book (ACOK) is not about her deciding that the corruption of the intertwined society and song justifies nihilism, but rather a growing conviction on her part that she has to live out the values in the songs even as they are rejected by the world at large. That comes through most clearly at the Blackwater, when she internally defies Cersei’s rule through fear in favor of ruling through love, as well as singing for mercy to and from Sandor. I think this is meant to reflect the journey taken by both author and audience from naivete to disillusionment to resolve, and that it’s also meant as a pointed contrast to Littlefinger’s story, not a continuation of it.
While I appriciate what GRRM planned with Sansa I think the execution isnt flawless. She has many informed abilities we never see with her told have done well in her studies in many subjects and its tad unrealistic that Ned and Catelyn would kept her so shielded form the practical realities.
She still after so many books has not have moments of plot agency apart form saving Dontos and the ones with the wolves and the informing Cersei that resulted in many fans hating her, and had been just observing and used by other people. And while she is young she is still older than Arya and Bran who have more immedeatelly harder time with starving and prison camp and a handicap and a pretty much slowly loosing everything of old life.
So I do like Sansa a lot but there are many different things that could have been done with her chapters and how slowly the books have been coming out and waiting other plot lines to progress has left her adrift.
Gotta say, I disagree. Sansa’s moments of agency don’t have huge impact, but that’s because they can’t in her position. They still stand out emotionally--reaching out to Sandor, confessing the truth about Joffrey to the Tyrells, telling Tyrion she might never want him to touch her, getting Sweetrobin down the mountain. As we pick up with her in TWOW, she’s as actively involved in the goings-on in the Vale as could reasonably be expected. I think there’s a clear and significant progression from the Sansa we saw in AGOT.
As for why Ned didn’t prepare her, it’s the same reason none of his kids were fostered as he was, the same reason he doesn’t want to go to King’s Landing--because he’s so traumatized by what happened to Lyanna outside the safe warm walls of Winterfell that he can’t bear to burst that bubble.
I really enjoy your analysis and commentary on asoiaf, and am popping by to say thank you for your consistent empathy toward Sansa. I read a lot of analysis of the series and so often run into Sansa-hatred that is utterly bewildering and also, to me, demonstrates a lack of understanding of what GRRM set out to say, big picture, with the series. But a lot of people do hate her (for whatever reason) so I also really appreciate that, in various asks, you do not back down on your points about her.
Well, thanks! I understand gravitating initially more towards POVs like Arya and Tyrion, who at least partially see through the lies of the chivalric tropes undergirding the feudal power structures. (Partially, I emphasize.) But for me, Sansa is the best POV in AGOT because her early chapters provide such a ravishing image of the world through the eyes of someone who takes the songs 100% seriously. That’s what makes the fall from grace that is that first book’s primary subject (from Bran’s very literal fall forward) work so well. You need the Hand’s Tourney to start out “better than the songs,” or it doesn’t mean anything when Ser Hugh dies and Sansa reflects that no songs will be sung of him. By the time you get to her final chapter in AGOT, it’s so damn clear what GRRM is going for with her character:
Sansa stared at him, seeing him for the first time. He was wearing a padded crimson doublet patterned with lions and a cloth-of-gold cape with a high collar that framed his face. She wondered how she could ever have thought him handsome. His lips were as soft and red as the worms you found after a rain, and his eyes were vain and cruel. “I hate you,” she whispered.
She has learned the truth: a padded crimson doublet and a cloth-of-gold cape don’t make you a hero, which has implications for both the social structure (in that all this wealth and power is orbiting around a sadistic child who just cut off Dad’s head) and the chivalric worldview (in that the imagery falling apart here bolstered that worldview earlier in the book). Sansa is literally seeing the world anew, and she has to start off in a bubble for that to qualify as an arc.
Moreover, her story in the following book (ACOK) is not about her deciding that the corruption of the intertwined society and song justifies nihilism, but rather a growing conviction on her part that she has to live out the values in the songs even as they are rejected by the world at large. That comes through most clearly at the Blackwater, when she internally defies Cersei’s rule through fear in favor of ruling through love, as well as singing for mercy to and from Sandor. I think this is meant to reflect the journey taken by both author and audience from naivete to disillusionment to resolve, and that it’s also meant as a pointed contrast to Littlefinger’s story, not a continuation of it.
Join Emmett and Jeff from the NotACast podcast along with friends Chloe and Eliana from the Girls Gone Canon Podcast and Joe Magician from t
I'm going to see George tonight in Jersey City for the release of Fire and Blood! Check out the NotACast livecast about it with @liesandarbor, BryndenBFish, Joe Magician, and Eliana from Girls Gone Canon at 1030 PM EST!
Hi, I discovered your essays a while ago, and... Wow, thanks, a great read while waiting for TWOW. You seem to think that Theon will survive the battle in the ice and even help to overthrow Erik Ironmaker with Asha. I love this character, and I would really like to see how and if he will survive and rebuild himself after all he did and suffered, but I don´t see how he could be of use... Except as a great POV to witness what happens in the Iron Isles. Do you see anything bigger coming for him?
Theon could be potentially be very useful as a Latecomer option to overthrow the kingsmoot. If so, though, Asha and the Reader would probably be the actual mobilizers.
