Deep Dive

Just me rambling about Tiva

[stcactus]

Now that I made my case to write Tiva chronologically, I have my first post-spinoff fic out.

An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative Works

“The romance of a language school director and the CEO of a cyber security company. Established Tiva, with an unexpected twist.”

It’s a highly unusual register for me — I thrive on angst, and this one is full-blown domestic fluff (at least it starts out that way, but I promise it will stay light throughout).

This is the first multichapter of a three-fic post-spinoff arc I’m really excited about.

[stcactus]

Thinking about NCIS: Tony and Ziva and the whole POV question got me thinking about my writing process and my relationship to these characters.

Writing Tony’s POV has always been easier for me, and for a while I couldn’t make sense of it. Because sure, I love both parts of Tiva, and I love what they have become together even more, but I always had a soft spot for Ziva. Why does writing Tony’s POV feel closer to me then?

One reason is that his POV (my version of Tony’s POV, that is) is much more contemplative than Ziva’s. In my opinion, this comes from the fact that he is a talker, so my Tony narrates his life, even when he is not talking out loud. Which is easy and fun to write, because even if he sometimes doesn’t see what’s right in front of him, his interiority flows nicely and he interprets things that he observes. I think it’s probably the countless hours of movies he’s consumed throughout his life that he needs to have a story inside his head all the time. He needs to have a narrative.

My Ziva on the other hand observes, yes, but a lot of times she doesn’t let what she observed touch her — it just goes through her, maybe it changes her ever so slightly, but she spends less time constructing a narrative than Tony does. Her perceiving the world is a more of a sensory experience. Maybe it’s her Mossad training, maybe her trauma, probably both. She did learn to reflect in therapy, so her interiority does change in my writings (I hope).

Another difference between their interiorities is that Tony had to confront his feelings earlier than Ziva and in more depth too. In my version (which is tightly based on canon), Somalia and what came before forced Tony to face his feelings for her and his denial basically stops after that. Ziva, on the other hand, even though she also came to the same conclusion (“I knew I could not live without him”), still thinks for a long time that she can find happiness somewhere else. Tony doesn’t believe that anymore after Somalia. I took a detour, didn’t I. Anyway, for a long time it’s only Tony who is aware of what they have going on between them, while Ziva is not. So naturally, it’s easier for me to write his POV, because he knows the thing, he feels the thing, he lives the thing — while Ziva hides from the thing, and hiding from a blatantly obvious thing in your own interiority is much harder to write. (You don’t know this yet, but “Twelve Weeks of Autumn” brings this exact dynamic back, which is why it cannot be in Tony’s POV — it has to be Ziva’s, otherwise the plot collapses.)

But, and this is the main reason and my point ultimately, writing Tony’s POV is easier for me because he deeply cares for Ziva. And since I also deeply care for that character, it’s a treat to write someone’s POV who feels the same way.

[shiggityontherocks]

Okay so I can sleep and ive been doing some big brained thinking.

After almost a year, I am ready to say this: Tony & Ziva felt way more Tony than it did Ziva.

Like i get that he is supposed to be the main protagonist, but like we very rarely get to see Ziva and her daughter interact without his presence. Tali goes with her to get ice cream and play when ziva gets her apartment. It's told to us through Tony's POV. Ziva teachs Tali more ways to defend herself, Tony interrupts w breakfast. Ziva speaks with Tali about her bad dream and Tony is like oh it happens less and less now marry me. Tony is the one who tells Ziva their daughter is being stalked, tony is the one who's contacts are the bad guys, Tony is the one who calls Ziva into explain the seriousness of the situation to Tali.

We know Tony's job, his assistant, his best friend, the betrayal, and his romantic relationship. Ziva has a therapist that tony lies to. We see the operation of his business. We see her in her business once. We see her have episodes of panic or ptsd and we get his perspective of it both times.

I understand he is main character here, but it is more than obvious her character is a vehicle for his, meaning does actions receives consequences to further his character while his character also does this for his character.

It would have been nice to see Ziva and Tali reconnect. See Ziva explain about her sister's namesake. See Ziva and Tali cooking, or at a Cafe. I feel like sophie spent more time with Tali as a nanny then Ziva did as a mom and I feel like after the season 17 episodes, Ziva would not let time with Tali slip away so easily.

It can be argued that this is five years after she returned so the family has fallen into a known routine, but they literally had flashbacks to the first reconnection why not Ziva finding out Tali likes the Stray Kids, or likes to play soccer, or so many other things instead of her brushing away her daughter seeing her again for the first time in 5 years to make it about Tony.

This makes me think this show was to bring Tony back onto NCIS for this season to begin with like a soft launch testing the audience's reaction to see if it was favorable.

[stcactus]

I don’t know about the conclusion (aka was it the plan all along) but I totally agree with the POV thing.

On my first watch it only hit me on the last image. They kiss and we end on both of them smiling, but Ziva with her eyes closed and Tony with his eyes open.

I cannot explain why (maybe one day I’ll try) but for me that was the few seconds it clicked. It was his POV all along.

[stcactus]

Twelve Weeks of Autumn

Chapter 2 - “Wonderfully Ordinary”

An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative Works

“So?” Tony asked quietly when Ziva joined him in the kitchen.

“It’s girl problems. She’ll be fine.”

“At least it’s not boy problems.”

“That might not be as far around the corner as you think.” She put her arms around his waist, and he squeezed her in a hug.

“Don’t even start.”

[stcactus]

I’m at the “omg no one actually talks like this, what was I thinking?!” stage of editing😪 so much fun

[stcactus]

Being on vacation I realized I only wrote angsty Tiva on vacation lol. I might do something about that. I do love this, even though it broke my heart when I wrote it (ok it still does whenever I think about it).

Tali got bored of the pebbles, so they headed to the beach. She asked to be picked up, and he happily obliged. He liked holding her, her tiny hands around his neck, like it was the safest place in the world. He would have liked to believe it really was.

Did her mother ever take her to the beach? They didn’t live near one, but maybe they went on a trip one day. Tali became ecstatic when Tony took off her shoes and put her down on the sandy shore. He took off his own shoes as well, and they walked right up to the edge of the sea. The beach was perfect for a vacation with small kids, the shallow water stretching for miles in each direction, allowing for safe water play. Tali was laughing and screeching as the waves kissed her feet, and in a second she was soaking wet. It was warm enough that Tony got her out of the wet clothes and let her run around in her diaper. When she got tired of that, she directed her attention to the sand. Tiny seashells in white, beige, black and the occasional pink were washed up on the shore, waiting for curious little fingers to dig them up, clean them in the salty water and put them into buckets — or in this case, daddy’s pocket — like the treasures they were. As his pocket weighed more and more, his thoughts started to wander.

He let himself imagine, only for a minute, that it was the three of them on this beach today. She’d gone in for a swim, enjoying a little time away from the chaos of a 2-year-old and a husband that was sometimes just as tiring as a toddler. But after a while she would return, smiling and ready for hugs, as she missed them even being away for just twenty minutes. Her hair was ever so curly from being wet, she smelled like the sea and shea butter as she kissed him and told him the water was perfect.

The thought almost crushed him, so he pulled himself back to reality. The sun was ready to set. It was time to go. To his surprise, Tali didn’t object. She jammed a few more seashells in his pocket and asked to be picked up again. He put on his shoes, picked up Tali, and they returned to their hotel room to clean up before dinner.

(🌙✨The Search for the Stars and the Moon ✨🌙 On Ao3: https://archiveofourown.org/works/80118541/chapters/210325751 )

[stcactus]

My absolutely subjective list of Tony DiNozzo’s 10 best NCIS: Tony and Ziva quotes

10. Two words: jewish mother.

This hits hard. His complete blind faith in Ziva, in two words. I wish she could have heard it.

9. A cordwainer. Someone who makes shoes. Most people think that’s a cobbler, but it’s not, it’s a cordwainer.

I don’t know why, this makes me laugh uncontrollably even after the umpteenth rewatch. ADHD much? Also, him teaching Ziva a new word is so baby-Tiva coded, I love it. Then Ziva shutting him up is just hilarious.

8. Claudette, snatch our rat food!

He is not just funny, he thinks fast under pressure. A glimpse of Agent DiNozzo.

7. I don’t wanna ignore the thing that’s right in front of me.

The quote that sums up and resolves the past 20 years of Tiva. I cried.

6. Killer robot dog? Come on!

This ad-lib had to make the list. 100% Tony DiNozzo.

5. Ziva, will you marry me?

This one needs no explanation.

4. You think I’m wrong, I think you’re wrong. Can we just stop for a second and think this through?

My roman empire this whole scene is. Just a few years ago this quote was “You think I’m wrong. I think you’re wrong. I’m gonna do what you want anyway and repress the hell out of my needs and feelings because I love you and I don’t want to lose you”. How far he's come? 

3. It’s time for cake!

Subtle, DiNozzo. Real subtle.

2. No mixed messages.

The sexiest thing a man has ever said to a woman. He is all in. I’ll never get over “No mixed messages.”

1. I’m gonna need a defibrillator.

I’m sorry, I’m a sucker for goofy DiNozzo. I think by now he is mature enough that his jokes land on a whole new level. If anything, he is funnier than ever, and the dad-jokes genre was invented for Big Daddy DiNozzo, I swear.

+1. If I wanted to sneak up on you, I’d be dressed like a tree.

This “joke” is so bad, it gives me Office-level second hand embarrassment. I just cannot.

[stcactus]

“He had been thinking about learning proper French for a while now. Their family reuniting, again, had been surreal. Only after Ziva moved in that spring — or rather, when one day she realized it had been weeks since she’d gone to her apartment — did he start to believe that his life, their life in Paris, really was permanent. Which meant it was time for him to act like it was. And the first step, long overdue, was to improve his French. Where, of course, was a given, but he wasn’t ready to share it with Ziva of all people, not until he had something to show for it. No. So he came here, where no one knew him as Tony DiNozzo.”

Oh, how wrong he was😅

[manymidnights]

we know tali has tiktok but do we think tiva would be on social media? 😂 i feel like tony would have instagram and tiktok but he would mostly post silly stuff on instagram and nothing on tiktok. i feel like ziva would maybe only have instagram but she would be very strict about it. her page would definitely be private. i have no idea why im thinking about this but it’s funny to think about

[stcactus]

Since I’m writing a post-spinoff fic at the moment (yes, the minute I made my case for writing Tiva chronologically, 1.5 years’ worth of post-spinoff fics came to mind… anyway), I’ve actually been giving Tivali and social media a lot of thought.

I can absolutely see Tony doomscrolling, and this is exactly the kind of content he would find hilarious:

He’d share it with Ziva sometimes. She’d enjoy seeing him laugh at it more than she’d find it funny herself.

I think Ziva would only create a personal account to communicate with other parents and maybe friends abroad, although I imagine she’d still prefer traditional emails over texting. She would have accounts on multiple platforms for her language school, though, and I think she’d genuinely enjoy maintaining those — posting learning tips and other linguistic fun facts.

Both of them would be very conscious about sharing personal information (they wouldn’t), and they would raise Tali to be safe online. In return, she’d keep them up to date on the latest trends, and both of her parents would try to keep up, while secretly having no idea what was going on.

[stcactus]

I started writing Tiva a few months ago (it’s been due for a loooong time lol). I’m mostly writing chronologically, but I have pretty much their whole arc mapped out by now. I try to stick to the timeline because even though I write standalones mostly, they do build on each other and each of them brings something new to the next one.

Lately I have been thinking a lot about season 8-9, and the whole Ray-EJ thing that’s going on there. If you have followed my version of Tiva, you might be thinking that I kind of wrote myself into a corner. I had similar thoughts when I wrote my last fics, but honestly, these two are so in love after Somalia that it could not have been any other way. So the next big arc, which is taking the shape of a multichapter, will have to deal with them going on to date other people. I have given it a LOT of thought and I think what came out is going to strengthen what they have built. I’m really excited. So much so, that it’s hard not to jump on this multichapter, but write the next one-shot and another multichapter before that (both will cement me into that corner even more, I can already see that). But that’s another discussion.

Why would someone want to write about the era when Tiva was dating other people?

The mothership already established why Ray and EJ were doomed relationships from the start, and this is one of the reasons I find this season so interesting, them both being in relationships for the first time at the same time.

Why do they end up with other people to begin with? At first glance, it seems completely illogical, especially after Somalia. I don’t think it’s bad writing — of course the practical reason probably was to keep the will-they-won’t-they thing going on — but I truly think in the process they handed us something beautifully Tiva.

Even though Ziva says she is ready for her something permanent, she chose someone profoundly unavailable — partly because of Somalia. That healing journey is far from finished at this point. Yes, she did get her citizenship, yes, she did make it an NCIS agent, but that’s practical, not emotional recovery. So on paper, she is ready for the next step: after getting her professional life on track, let’s tackle the personal side of things. But Somalia runs deep and even without it, Ziva has always struggled with believing she deserves to be happy. I love her line in the spinoff “being drawn to someone who is not available is a form of self-sabotage”. The first time I heard it, my mind immediately jumped to Ray. She chose him precisely because he is unavailable, and it’s absolutely devastating how she cannot see this yet. The other reason behind Ray is that committing to someone who is available and a suitable partner would inevitably close the door on Tony and what they have at this point, which she is not ready to do.

The logic behind EJ I think also stems from Somalia. By now, Tony has no doubt he’ll never find a replacement for Ziva and I truly think he is content with that. Why? Because he is not ready to act on it, maybe he never will be, and he knows it. Also, he loves her and wants to be with her, sure, but anything is better than her being dead, so he’ll just go along with whatever. And in his choice to let Ray happen, we can already find their pattern that solidifies after Somalia and remains with them for more than a decade: Tony respecting her decision and freedom, no matter what, even if it costs them. Because what happened the last time when he had a problem with her life decisions? Rivkin happened, and her staying in Israel happened, and Somalia happened. This is the first time this pattern pops up and it will take more than fifteen years for Tony to eventually realize this is how he operates and change it — which is why the “you think I’m wrong, I think you’re wrong” scene is one of my favorites from the spinoff. But back to 2008. So there is no way Tony is going to get involved in the Ray-relationship, not even in season 9, when Ziva practically begs him to (which leads to one of the most heartbreaking Tiva scenes in the mothership, when Tony tells her to say yes to Ray).

And EJ happens because life doesn’t stop just because you are in love with someone who is dating someone else at the moment. But despite EJ, Tony doesn’t for a second pretend that Ziva is not his number one priority (“it’s just different for some of us”) — and I love this for him.

Where is my version of Tiva in all of this?

By now, my version of Tiva is practically an established couple without the labels. But Tiva doesn’t do labels. So the next thing they would do, as they always did, is to take a step back before it inevitably starts to mean too much. But instead, and I think this is what makes the Ray-EJ thing brilliant and canonically not out of character at all, so what they do instead is that they don’t use other people to take a step back — they use other people to take it a step further. By then, their relationship is clearly not primarily about sex anymore, and after Somalia, there is little room to deepen the emotional intimacy without inevitably putting labels on it. “I couldn’t live without you” now lives between them — even though Ziva kept hers for herself, but my version did show it to Tony through actions, without a doubt — so by turning to Ray and EJ, they give themselves the plausible deniability to deepen their emotional bond even further. Whatever they have become to each other can now exist — after all, they both have partners, so whatever they share is “just” friendship; therefore it’s safe, it’s allowed, it can now live completely legitimately. And this is the engine behind that multichapter I’m working on, this is what makes it Tiva, this is what makes it a Bad Habits entry, even though technically their FWB agreement (I know, by now it’s pretty hilarious to call it that, but they do, because what is the alternative?) is on hold and they are dating other people.

I cannot wait to write it.

[stcactus]

So a short six months later I finally watched the deleted scenes from NCIS: Tony and Ziva (yes, I cried, and yes, I have rewatched them a thousand times in 48 hours). I love both, but I also see why they were cut.

November 2020

T: You were saying I don’t listen.

Z: We are not listening to each other, or ourselves.

Tony being Tony, on the defensive. Ziva, trying to disarm it, as she never meant saying he doesn’t listen as an attack, she is just trying to break the pattern they’ve been repeating for I think at least a decade now (or more): Tony repressing his needs to accommodate her. I do see where it stems from and her being in therapy for a while now, probably sees it too. One, he is terrified he’s gonna lose her because she is not happy in their relationship. Two, he really does think she deserves the world after all that she’s been through. Both of them valid points, but prevent building an honest and sustainable relationship, where both of them have their needs met, but both of them also give something up for the other. Without compromise, one of them (in this case, Tony) will inevitably feel resentment towards the other, and the other one (Ziva) cannot experience the joy of giving something up to make their partner happy.

I love how Ziva also sneaks in a little bit of therapy for Tony (“we are not listening to ourselves”), which is something he has struggled with since forever and will struggle with for a long time yet.

Ziva: And Dr. Lang thinks that… Who are you talking to? Henry?

T: Not saying anything. I mean, I’m just listening.

It’s interesting how both Tony and Ziva both see the other’s confidant as their enemy. Someone who causes the rupture in their relationship, and not someone who tries to help mend it.

Especially Henry. I’ll always be heartbroken about how Ziva never knew that Henry never talked against her, in fact, he wanted the same thing as Ziva did: for Tony to finally acknowledge his needs and act on them. To put himself first, or at least put himself in the equation for once. I really wish they could have discussed this, Henry and Ziva, because I believe they would have become wonderful friends if given the chance.

Tony, again, on the defensive, but he takes it one step further now, saying he is listening, but refusing to address what Ziva is actually saying.

Ziva: Look, Tony, I know this is not what you’ve imagined. I know you’ve waited a long time for this and so have I, and all of our friends. And I… would want nothing more than to stand in front of the world and profess my love to you but I… I physically can’t. My body won’t let me. I wish I could, but… Tony, it’s terrifying. I’m so sorry. I can’t give you what you want.

Oh, this is just Ziva at her most vulnerable. Her biggest fear, ever since she’s been back: “I know this is not what you’ve imagined.” She already said it when she asked Tony to be patient (on-screen, the “knots on knots” scene), but probably not just that one time. Tony knows. He knows and it breaks his heart, and this ties back to his biggest fear, that she will, again, feel that she is not good enough for him and pack up and leave. It had happened before and cost him not only Ziva, but Tali too. This, right here, is one of the ways Ziva unconsciously sustains the pattern she is desperately trying to break. Because if Tony is terrified of her leaving, then yes, he will do whatever it takes to make her feel worthy and happy and loved, even if it means ignoring his own needs in the process.

So, it’s not surprising this reads as a break-up speech for Tony, which takes us to his reaction.

Tony: Okay. I think I know where you’re going with this, and you should just stop. Because all of that is not what I want.

Ziva: No, I know it’s what you want.

Tony: No. Maybe it’s what I thought I wanted, but what I want is to make you happy.

Panic, total 180, and he even says it out loud: I want to make you happy. That is my sole concern, and I’d do anything to make that happen. But, and I love this, there is real introspection in this, even if just a glimpse: “Maybe it’s what I thought I wanted”. I truly believe this is him finally facing and communicating something real. And it’s devastating how Ziva is so anxious that Tony will resent her after sacrificing his own needs, that she just cannot recognize it as the truth.

Ziva: No, Tony, it doesn’t work like that. It only works if you’re honest about what you want, it’s the only way we could make it work.

Tony: No. You know what works for me? You and me. Just the two of us. That’s what works. A big wedding, guests, all that stuff, that’s my ego. Don’t need it.

Ziva: Okay.

Tony: Okay.

“That's my ego. Don’t need it.” The line that makes cutting this scene justifiable. Because this is Tony DiNozzo, 100% in touch with his feelings, aware of his motivations, recognizing and communicating that underneath all of it is just the desire to be together. That’s what he’s been waiting for, for more than a decade by now. To be together. Ziva becoming his something permanent. Nothing else matters.

This is such an amazing scene. They should have totally had that conversation. But if they did, then the wedding would have never gone down the way it did, or it would have needed multiple scenes to explain why it did. And honestly, even if we got the arc of going on with that wedding, I am not sure anyone would have bought it after this conversation.

Can I end this with saying I would LOVE to have ALL the deleted scenes? I know the feeling when a scene just cannot make the final cut, no matter how great it is, but it’s so nice to have them regardless.