Just a reminder for @theirstar to finally play the Trails in the Sky games. They even have their own Vincent-like character! The power of friendship <3
This is something I have been thinking about for quite some time now; and the more I think about it, the more uneasy I feel: the portrayal of the antagonists in the first Suikoden.
First, we have many levels of antagonism: We have the small petty ones like Kanaan and Kraze, who are just corrupt and basically “evil”, or Neclord (and Yuber) who are just evil for no particular reason. Second, we have people committed to their cause, namely Teo, Kasim, Sonya and even Barbarosa. I want to talk about the third group, which consists only of Milich and Kwanda. And I have a problem with them.
Both are doing what they do because they are under an evil spell by the sorceress WIndy. This spell controls them in their doing which consists in the case of Kwanda of mass genocide. The player gets the option to execute both (Milich for killing Gremio the protagonist’s best friend), but makes it pretty clear that forgiving them for their sins because they were forced to do it, as the player cannot achieve the best ending of the game by executing either of them.
It kind of confuses me. The other generals (the second group as pointed out above) follow their duty, but also, they are never shown to commit evil deeds outside the bounds of fighting a war. The player is not even able to judge them, making it clear that they did not really do something wrong. The term “wrong” is very shady here, as only the side winning the war can declare “rightness” - history books of the Toran Republic will probably be filled with tales of the heroic generals Viktor, Flik or Pahn. But Kwanda being a mass murderer is a fact. How will history books write about him and his role in the war - and no less, he’s the commander of the Republican Army! The young Republic is off to a good start.
I think that this is pretty messed up. I don’t want to draw too many far fetched conclusions, but if generals (or officicials in concentration camps) of the Third Reich or fascist Japan would have had the opportunity, they would surely love to say that they stood under an evil spell and were not responsible for their doing. (And, in fact, most officials of the Third Reich said they were just following orders, not knowing what they did etc. And many of the “lower” officials got into high positions of the German Republic after the war as well) And shouldn’t we just measure them by their doing, not by their motivation?
Suikoden is of course very shallow, as it is a game, not a philosophical essay about morality. But I think it oversimplifies things too much here, especially since it makes clear what the right move is in the situation. Maybe it’s alluding to the original Chinese novel, in which the army also consisted of shady characters (iirc most of them are murderers in some way), but fought under a rightly cause in the end. But we all praise Suikoden for its non “black and white” portrayal of people - maybe we should overthink this point of view (and actually, this gets worse as the series goes on, with a beaver-genocide in V and a genocidal prince in II)
I played some of Trails in the Sky on PSP and it seemed like the quintessential Generic PSP RPG™, which was unfair of me. I was probably distracted by Star Ocean. I think I read it was actually the third (?) game, just the first one localised, and that put me off as well. I also own the Steam version but haven’t got around to giving it another shot.I also own a sealed copy of the Lionheart Edition of Trails of Cold Steel but as my PS3 isn’t hooked up right now (only 4 HDMI ports on the TV), it’s unlikely to get much play any time soon.To be honest, I don’t even know what continuity, if any, Trails has.This is a really unsatisfying answer. ;/ If any Trails fans have recommendations or advice, hit me up.
All the games play in the same world, but at different times and different Locations.
ThE Trails in the Sky games play in Liberl, a very nice kingdom in the middle of the continEnt. the Cold Steel games play in Erebonia which is pretty much the equivalent of the German Empire. The Trails in thE Sky games have their own continuity and the Cold Steel ones again their own.
My recommendatioN: Play the Trails in the Sky games first: They’re just cute. Then the Cold Steels, which improved on many game mechanics etc. Always start with the first game. I’m sure you’d like it.
Can Debbie find the path to Suikoden VI through Konami or is there a better path to happiness?
Warning: contains scenes of bed jumping and temptation by polygon breasts.
(I’m very tried, forgive me for this thing)
That’s a real good name for the new RPG Yoshitaka Murayama’s doing the scenario for. A real good name.
There are parts (or potential parts, as there’s a lot of speculation) that don’t really appeal to me (different one-note segments of a continent based on some hokey elemental distinction) and announcing you’re setting out to make a “classic RPG” is a bold move to make that I may not be entirely on board with. Some newer games “inspired” by classics are just creaky and rusty (see: Pier Solar).
So we’ll see how it turns out. I never played Legend of Legacy (Legacy of Legend?) which is FuRyu’s previous big RPG title.
Legend of Legacy was so incredibly bland, but now I hope this will get at least a decent story (which LoL did not have).
But wow, they attract some “big” names. LoL had the SaGa guy, which explains the confusing and random level up system, and now we have a Triple Trinity System with Murayama! I’m at least keeping an eye on it now.
Do you feel Suikoden has spoiled you when it comes to playing other japanese role playing games that try to deal in that mix of high fantasy and political intrigue? Example: Ivalice. Why is it so impossibly convoluted, is it to cover up that the work hasn't been put in to flesh it out, or are the players not paying attention? Suikoden commits plenty of narrative sins, w their devices but as far as japanese games go... I think it does so sparingly. Would love to hear your thoughts...
I’m going to speak in generalities here. Political intrigue in JRPGs is always tough because JRPGs tend to be very character-based. Or more precisely, very playable character-based. This usually means that all events have to be filtered through main character interactions, which leads to events of ridiculous contrivance and explaining those contrivances requires more and more events, twists and so on. This can lead to a snarled mess of character motivations, shared background and unlikely roles as key linchpins of local, national and international policy. As there’s only so much time to write, plan and develop a game, that can leave things a bit lopsided so you end up with incredibly convoluted plots that are somehow incredibly shallow.
Suikoden’s vast cast means that a lot of those problems are sidestepped to a degree. By spreading roles across so many characters, even within the core cast, you can avoid the need to connect everything to everyone. Things can happen without your party being the ones to plan, instigate and resolve it, even if you, the player, are ultimately in control because you’re controlling a large army.Once you remove the need for 4-8 party members of seemingly disparate backgrounds to be involved in all your setting’s political intrigue, you can create much more interesting scenarios which aren’t so bogged down in having to justify its actors.Not that this solution is perfect. It can lead to the “elite squad” trope where you’re always near important things and are still responsible for everything, just without the agency or sense of personal stakes, especially if your fiction doesn’t give a lot of focus to actors outside the party.There’s a lot more to it, of course. The divergence of Japanese and western RPGs from the same basic source is always interesting. I would absolutely say Suikoden, as one of the first RPGs I played, certainly spoiled me (or raised my expectations) as to what I would consider “good” political intrigue in JRPGs.
I just thought about something similar to this. Are there even many “political” JRPGs? I know it’s more common for tactic RPGs, but the traditional ones? can’t think of many.
I think Infinite Space did it pretty well, because you are pretty much just a high ranking captain at the end of the game. It’s pretty similar to Star Trek in that regard. Political background, you have important tasks, but it’s not you who is winning the war. Whereas, well, Suikoden wants to have 16 year old boys to be president because they wear a rune and have the look that attracts people to them.
But I think it also has to do with Suikoden’s setting and worldbuilding which is pretty good (compared to other JRPGs). I mean how many games even have a political system besides the obligatory king or evil emperor? Are there even any RPGs depicting something like a democracy? Iirc, the world of Final Fanatsy VIII has a total of two presidents in the world. I would like to know more about the election system.
Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney: Spirit of Justice Review
That’s a long title for a game. Vague spoilers exist, but I’m not commenting on specific plot occurrences. (I don’t even name a character outside of Phoenix, Apollo, Athena and Trucy.)
I have to agree on a lot of points. I just finished the second case, but still, the series just has a bad habit of doing some things.
They should have sent Athena back to Europe or something after the last game to return for one case or so. Or do that with Apollo. But meh. I actually hate Athena’s thing, but just because it is so... weak. “Weren’t you feeling... sad when you said this?” How does this work? “Oh, you are right, I was happy when I saw him dead hahaha I am the murderer”. Also, now in the second case, it felt just.. weak. But that’s more the way the AA games interpret the legal system and otherwise it wouldn’t be fun to play, I guess.
But by now, you just feel the bigger narrative is lacking, which they try to compensate with new characters which aren’t fleshed out enough. Well, I can live with thes egames until the end of my life, but I wished it would turn around things like in the last case of any game.
The game casts the player as Rourke, a soldier from the Core, a highly isolated place below the surface of the Earth. Just like everybody else in his homeland, Rourke has been trained from birth as a sniper, and knows almost nothing about things unrelated to his job.
After finding out the awful truth about the operation he’s part of in Kaliningrad, he takes the decision to abandon his post, not really knowing the overall consequences of deserting.
Some of the key features are:
Two battle systems: Front-view turn-based combats and a Sniper Mode, which consists of Seek and Find mechanics.
Keep the team’s morale high: Choosing certain dialogue options will affect your team members’ Morale, altering their performance in battle.
Immersion: As you continue your journey through real world locations, some NPCs will speak in their native tongue. This means you’ll need Interpreter-class party members to help you out to buy at shops and complete quests.
And many more!
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As I was talking some smack about localisation a few days ago, let’s talk my localisation of the Card Stories cards.
Cards in Gensosuikoden Card Stories (GSCC from now on) come in seven classes/types. I’ll list these and any changes I made (or didn’t make) and explain why.
I like all your suggestions, but I think officer is a bit too close to a military rank. It’s hard to give it a good title though, as it involves characters ranging from Barbara to Yuber. Most of them are from the military, though. Mh, I can’t come up with something good.
“How will we get Yanks to play Suikoden II?”
“Turn the game map sideways, add random runes, set the ad text on fire, remove all in-game text and make sure to include at least three screenshots of text-heavy menus now even more meaningless without the text.”
Even better, “include that Boar Rune, it looks cool” - “But it is not even in the game!” “What? I don’t care. Also, tilt the map of the game so it fits on the flyer.”
“How will we get Yanks to play Suikoden II?”
“Turn the game map sideways, add random runes, set the ad text on fire, remove all in-game text and make sure to include at least three screenshots of text-heavy menus now even more meaningless without the text.”
catteries replied to your post:catteries replied to your post:You raise a good…
a good example would be ace attorney, which flourishes on japanese puns and jokes. I think they localised that one quite well imo!
Yeah, if a character is making a pun, you need to try and come up with an equivalent level of pun in English. Otherwise, you’re just writing nonsense and as the character wasn’t speaking nonsense in Japanese, it would be bad localising to just translate it directly.
Ace Attorney is a weird one as it puts a lot of work into making sure jokes are clear and the like. On the other hand, the whole “Japanifornia” thing is silly and often collides badly when something extremely Japanese can’t be covered up. (Phoenix and Maya love hamburgers for three games only to have to double back and profess their love for their local ramen cart. Uh, everything about the Japanese mountain mystics which turned into the backbone for the first trilogy).
But that’s my opinion as a consumer. It’d be foolish to argue that Ace Attorney’s localisation didn’t bring in more people than it turned off.
What I find, in the end, mor eimportant is how the publishers communicate the changes. E.g., Phoenix Wright. I know it’s too late for them to turn back, but did they ever really explain it? In AA 5, they did not release one DLC episode because it is too Japanese. Or so I’ve heard. But I never heard from Capcom. Couldn’t they say “This and that is impossible to translate, here’s an example”? Instead, I know nothing.
Or NoA. I mean the censorship etc. in Tokyo Mirage Session, I would probably don’t notice them if I didn’t know they are there. But why can’t Nintendo just openly say why they did it? This whole idol business (and this gravure model thing is super Japanese, I get it that I probably can’t get it. But explain it to me! Instead, we get stupid looking censorships to the point that some scenes don’t make sense (in Project zero, e.g.)
Yeah, in the end, I should learn Japanese, but companies should not treat me like a baby either. I can deal with changes in localization, Japanese is probably impossible to localize while keeping all its quirks (I don’t need -sans and -samas or this strange, not very direct way of talking), but if you’d communicate it that way, many people would probably at least understand.
Been working on a Card Stories template so I can bring you this: localised Gensosuikoden Card Stories cards. It was a lot of fun and frustration getting the card layout right and I’ll never be 100% satisfied with it but I still hope you enjoy them!
I debated changing out the kanji/kana icons (used for gender and factions) for something else and polishing the card type names a little but I’m not sure if I want to go “full localisation” on these yet.
Kanak's and Morgan's weapon names - have they been translated correctly into Japanese? Especially Morgan is confusing me here somehow.
Kanak’s weapon name is accurate, if unwieldy. A kusarigama (the Japanese name) is literally a chain-sickle weapon. It’s a little over-localised perhaps but “sickle & chain” is fine.Morgan is a bit trickier. “Talons” for his first weapon is fine, although “Claw” would be more common. My idiomatic Japanese is poor so I might be missing a subtle meaning, but his second weapon should likely just be “Mad (or Berserk) Talons” and his third “Metal (or Iron) Talons”.I can only imagine the change in localisation was made in order to give Morgan’s weapon line something of a theme (in this case, birds), rather than more generic names.
Ah thanks! Then my information on Kanak’s weapon from a Japanese site was wrong, since there I found 斬馬斧 which is something like.. horse decapitation axe!? But that explains it.
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