#*intimacy

[taylortruther]

like... "diesel is desire, you were playing with fire" very much sounds like taylor saying "you knew what you were doing and you liked it" but it's so confusing in context of the song when she's also saying things like "telling me to punish you for things you never did." soooo intrigued to see if/how our hazy understanding of this song becomes clearer with ttpd

[neondvcks]

you know what; next cr episode there will be some hugging or some handholding because i say so

[taylortruther]

Sex will come up... it’s a Taylor album, of course. But how can you even have sex with someone you’re falling out of love with or who’s so angry or upset with you? You can’t desire someone if you look at them with stormy eyes? I want to hear her describe it, not in a perverted way, but just to understand it

sex and how it appears in a relationship is obviously deeply personal, but it's funny because my first reaction was, "you can't." and while that's obviously just me, it wouldn't surprise me if that showed up on an album (presumably) about the end of a ltr.

like, beyond whether you're allosexual, the amount you have, when you have it, who you're having it with, what you're doing, how you feel about any of it... it can be tied so tightly with people's self-worth and self-expression. sex is packed with meaning, which makes it very fraught and fragile at times.

so i hear you on just wanting to understand it. you can't help but wonder, what does sex look to a person who deeply needs physical intimacy and who has used it to reconnect with her partner during hard times (false god, afterglow)? to say nothing about how it might affect her self-esteem (thinking of maisie peters' "body better"...)

also, it just makes me think of "you taught me a secret language i can't speak with anyone else" and "i don't remember who i was before you painted all my nights a color i've searched for since" because that's so often what sex with a partner is like. how can you find that intimate and fragile and vulnerable connection with anyone else? do you go looking for it (illicit affairs, "diesel is desire you were playing with fire")? and if you are using it as another language, what if it fails to get the point across? how do you process having sex with a partner and feeling cold after? LIKE!!!!! i'm scared.

(btw it's really funny to me that you're like "of course sex will be present, it's taylor" when this conversation started because someone was like "why would taylor talk about sex again?" lmao)

[taylortruther]

I've been following the discourse on The Alcott, which I love, and I couldn't resist chiming in (long-time reader, first time sending an ask hehe). I agree a lot with everything that has been said, and even though The Alcott is canonically about Matt and his wife, I do think aspects of Taylor's dynamic with Joe towards the end inevitably bled into it.

In the song, The Alcott is a place sacred to the lovers bc it's where one of them runs off after a fight and the other one chases after them, and in the Alcott (could be a bar or cafe), they manage to reconcile. To me, "I get myself twisted in threads to meet you at The Alcott" is the charcater saying that he will do whatever is neccessary to meet his lover at this place of reconciliation in order to fix things after a fight, no matter how hard it might be, but in a way it's also the character saying that he will pick fights over silly things, as in having to do mental gymnastics ("get twisted in threads") to find something to fight over just to get the chance to meet her at the Alcott, bc even if the rs is going through a horrible rough patch where they're emotionally distanced from each other, causing a fight would force them to at least feel something towards the other and talk, and that is better than feeling nothing, even if the emotion is anger. He knows exactly where she will be bc that's where she retreats to when they fight ("I'd go to the corner in the back, where you'd always be"), and seeing her there reassures him that that's where she (and him) will continue to run to in the future: not away from each other, but to this place of reconciliation. She's "writing something about someone that used to be me [him]", which could be a way of saying that she's now writing about someone else that she might be falling in love with as she's falling out of love with him. However, to me it feels more like a reference to how in the last couple of years (see the Joe songs on Midnights) Taylor reverted to writing about the beginning of their rs, back when things were good and joyful, bc at the present things were very bad and she desperately wanted to get back to how good it once was; hence why she's writing about it. I agree that "the last thing you wanted" and "the first thing I do" is referring to saying "I love you"; the reason why it's the last thing she wants could be bc that's how he usually tries to fix his wrongs in an easy way and she's tired of him saying that but not actually making an effort with his actions, which I do think Joe was guilty of towards the end. Or, alternatively, it could be bc the charcater has fallen out of love with him and therefore doesn't want him to say "I love you" bc she can't truthfully say it back. "I tell you my problems, you tell me the truth" could also be in this context: he tries to apologize by telling her his issues, she tells him that the truth is she no longer loves him. In the context of Joever, however, imo it refers to Joe telling her all the problems he has with her excessive fame and the public attention on them that it implies etc, and Taylor being honest about how songwriting and performing are an essential part of who she is, and giving it up forever would be devastating to her. But that she would do it for him if it could save them.

The fact that he waits for her to look up makes me think that he's cautious bc she might still be angry and/or that he doesn't have the courage to initiate the apology, and instead waits for her to do it or tries figure out what to say that will earn her forgiveness. "How many times will I do this and you'll still believe?" shows that he knows he screwed up badly and has done so repeatedly, yet she still always forgives him bc that's how much she believes in their love and wants to fight for it. How long can the relationship withstand and survive his repeated offenses again and again though? (which goes back to "how long could we be a sad song till we were too far gone to bring back to life?").

"Tell me which side are you on" is very interesting in reference to the "you fire off missiles cos you hate yourself" in Renegade and the "I tried to be your bravest soldier, fighting in only your army, frontlines don't you ignore me" in YLM. She's saying "why are you fighting against me, when we're supposed to be fighting together? I'm not the enemy, I'm always on your side and fighting for you", yet he still (consciously or subconsciously) treated her like the enemy, blaming her for things that were completely out of her control and all the outside stuff that they thought was the cause of their rs problems, instead of being on her side and fighting for her too. He left her all alone on the frontlines and not only ignored her efforts but also contributed to the missiles fired her way. Will be very interesting if she further develops the Archer metaphor in TTPD, under the theme of "I had only arrows as defense from your angry missiles and your love bombs" or something akin.

"Have I become one of your problems?" seems like her conclusion to him telling her his problems: apparently, they all have to do with her/her career. Yet, she's clearly exhausted and drained by their fights, and desperately wants it to be easy for once, so she puts the blame on herself ("everything that's mine is a landmine"), knowing that her continued forgiveness and desire to love him could redeem and heal him but it could also very much enable him to keep hurting her ("did my love aid and abet you?").

Then, as the lovers sing "I'll ruin it all over for you" together, they're both accepting the blame for the fight equally, which is the ideal conflict resolution (but sadly, not at all how I think it went with Taylor and Joe towards the end).

The back and forth in the last chorus is particularly gut wrenching to me. In a way, it echos the desperate begging and pleading in the bridge of YLM, but in this case it's softer, more hopeful perhaps, and as you and anon said, it alludes to pain and pleasure (both emotional and sexual): she's telling him "go ahead, shit on my art and my job, rip it off me, set the terms and conditions you want ("read my sentence out loud"); anything to save our love" but there's also a darkness to this, where she would rather he use her for his own physical pleasure even when still mad at her bc that way he at least feels something for her, which is very 😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫 but it goes to back to how in the beginning of the song he says he will pick fights in order to at least make her feel something (anger/rage) towards him, instead of remaining in the coldness and disconnect in which they were before. Florence + The Machine's song "Dream Girl Evil" describes this type of dynamic very well imo (which is even more😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫), where sex is used as both a weapon during conflict and as a means of resolution. I do think this was the case with Taylor and Joe after their honeymoon phase (False God, Afterglow) and also towards the very end, hence the TTPD cover. During folkmore it seems like they had a couple of years where they learned to use their words to resolve arguments instead of resorting to sex, but unfortunately went back to that dynamic when the rs started to fall apart.

In this way, the metaphorical Alcott for Taylor and Joe was the bedroom ("you had turned my bed into a sacred oasis"): it became their sacred place of reconciliation. Their love, once a blessing, is now a curse, but a curse that she loves and cherishes bc it's theirs, it keeps them together, within this home (both physical and metaphorical) they have built together over the years; she sees no other option but loving him (as we know, Taylor thought she would die if she lost him). All of this is emulated in the beautiful yet vulnerable and almost sad way in which Taylor sings the last "back in love with you": in The Alcott, sacred place for the lovers, they reconcile and fall back in love with each other.

I didn't mean for this to turn into an essay but oh well 😅 those are my two (or twenty) cents. Would love to hear what you and the anons think! Also, I love reading your blog, your takes are brilliant :)

i don't have much to add, because i like just letting this interpretation just sit on its own! but i do love that your interpretation of the alcott being the bedroom fits in perfectly with the discussions we've been having the last 2-3 days.

other things i really liked here:

Will be very interesting if she further develops the Archer metaphor in TTPD, under the theme of "I had only arrows as defense from your angry missiles and your love bombs" or something akin.

me too!!! how will the combat theme she discusses so often evolve in ttpd?

also intrigued by this:

"Tell me which side are you on" is very interesting [...] She's saying "why are you fighting against me, when we're supposed to be fighting together? I'm not the enemy, I'm always on your side and fighting for you",

and:

Or, alternatively, it could be bc the charcater has fallen out of love with him and therefore doesn't want him to say "I love you" bc she can't truthfully say it back. "I tell you my problems, you tell me the truth" could also be in this context: he tries to apologize by telling her his issues, she tells him that the truth is she no longer loves him

this was my first take!

but what i've noticed is that everyone has a different opinion on which role taylor is occupying (the one going to the alcott and confessing, or the one receiving the confession.)

also, i feel the need to address this for the readers: no, we do not know which parts specifically that taylor wrote, and she did write this from the pov of matt berninger's wife. acknowledged!

[taylortruther]

Sex will come up... it’s a Taylor album, of course. But how can you even have sex with someone you’re falling out of love with or who’s so angry or upset with you? You can’t desire someone if you look at them with stormy eyes? //

Oof anon, spoiler alert: yes it happens and yes it's horrible. I say that both as someone who experienced it for a bit and also as someone who watched two of her closest friends (boy & girl that were together for over 4 years) be in that kind of dynamic at the end of their rs. It's so bizarre, everyone just goes through the motions as if it's automatic, almost like when you cook a recipe you've made hundreds of times and you don't think much through the steps, you do it almost subconsciously, but you still love the end product so that's why you keep making it again and why you've gotten so good at it idk ☠️☠️ it's horrible afterwards, my friends would not even talk to each other or cuddle or anything and yeah you feel guilty and icky. Especially if you're not really into the other person anymore which was my case 🫣 It's hard to describe idk.

I think the most realistic media portrayal I've seen of this is this film called Blue Valentine, idk if any of y'all have watched it but yeah it very accurately depicts a ltr and marriage gradually desintegrate. It's very painful and sickening to but it's imo a well done film with raw and realistic human emotions. At one point there's this scene where he tries to have sex with her and she simply can't get into it so she kinda tries to get him to hit her in an attempt to make herself be into it but he won't and tells her he could never hit her and then she storms off and yeah idk it's awful. I have to say though, I actually think that this kind of stuff is very common at the end of ltrs. It's also such a mindfuck bc on the one hand you know things are bad and you're thinking of ending it but at the same time there are small good moments that make it still feel worth it and when you're still passionately fighting and having sex with this person that you have loved for so long, you continue to think that it can be fixed. It's the last moments of flickering fire before the flame is extinguished, but as long as there is a flame, no matter how tiny, you feel convinced that it's still worth staying.

It's when the flame dies out completely and there's no fighting, no arguments, no sex, barely a look or a word uttered at each other that you know it's truly over, and you finally accept that it's time to go. In my experience, along with the excruciating pain that comes with that, there's also some weird form of... relief. That you're finally out of that limbo. But it's been so long that you can hardly even recall who you were before that person came into your life and that's where the really hard part comes lol.

(Btw DISCLAIMER before anyone comes for me lol: I am NOT saying or in any way insinuating that this is what happened with Taylor and Joe, I am merely sharing some thougths based on my own personal experiences)

YUP! and yes, for younger readers or people who don't understand this, we're not saying every relationship ends in toxicity or you should accept/expect it. but it's just really common for problems in your relationship to manifest in your sex life, and it can be really shitty and awful.

and i agree that, while painful, coming out of emotional limbo is also hugely relieving. there's this moment when you're in the eye of the storm that you feel relieved: the breakup has happened, and you are not yet feeling the consequences (loneliness, fear, etc.) and so you just feel... at peace, almost?

[taylortruther]

When I experienced something similar to Joeover, the breakup felt pretty sudden. It was the dumbest argument over the phone that did us in (this is why I can belief the breakup happened over an email). In hindsight, though, we were drifting apart way before. But I don't think I could ever write something like You're Losing Me, 'cause I really didn't understand how little love was left. 

When you're in in these kind of situations I think there is always one thing you both still enjoy doing. Sex's the obvious one but it can also be something silly like a tv show you both like watching. I think it's the small, happy moment that makes it so much harder to see the big picture has turned bleak. And I wonder if for Taylor & Joe writing songs together was also one of those things

yes! i think this is a very astute observation (which i think we've discussed a lot in the last week, but being explicit helps) - the physical intimacy can stand in for A LOT. and it can be really horrible when you stop having sex due to lack of connection, but it's also awful to only feel that connection during sex, or for it to get twisted into something complicated instead of easy. like, how can someone who makes you feel so good physically make you feel so bad emotionally? or, how can this person who used to care about your needs become selfish, even in bed? maybe selfishness in bed is the only way you can get your needs met anymore.

also, the mundanity of a relationship can keep it afloat for a long time too. simply having a routine can make it seem like things are normal, and can keep you from examining things too hard.

it's really sad to imagine songwriting being that but the way taylor's described it makes it seem like that's right on the money.

[taylortruther]

re: sex as a possible theme in ttpd

A lot of people took False God as fucking instead of talking, which, yeah but I think "I know heaven's a thing / I go there when you touch me / honey, hell is when I fight with you" is the most important line. My interpretation of this song is that, yes, they are going through a rough patch, but they still feel passionate about each other and are able (and want) to be intimate with one another and this is why Taylor thinks they'd "get away with this"

And when relationships fall apart, when your partner is less attracted to you, that shit is so hurtful. a lot of people's first reaction would be to wonder if something is wrong with their bodies (along with their personality).

yeah, i think all of that is present in the song. i think of it as more of a "this is how we maintain or reestablish connection" - and intimacy is like that for a lot of couples! sex or intimacy isn't just something you do when you're horny, it's a form of communication and a way to connect when words fail or when words simply aren't enough.

the next ask i'm about to answer will address your second paragraph, which i agree is extremely awful and why i'm not really prepared for ttpd. like, not just fear they're unattracted to you, but fear that this sacred, excruciatingly personal way you talked to each other (that cannot possibly be replicated with anyone else!), is no longer working. to be unable to connect your head and your heart and your body... it's so painful.