I am empathetic. I fully understand the trauma of Renly. What I have been trying to understand for a good while is why he admired Robert, who was the one who led the Rebellion, at least in name. I also want to understand why he chose the TYRELLS, the people who starved him, over Stannis. Or does Renly blame Stannis for the siege? This is what I want to understand and ponder over. The perpetrator was MACE. And prefers him over Stannis? He never blamed Loras for his father's deeds. Why sowithStan?
And also, Renly must have been explained later by Cressen priv why Stannis did it. And again, even if he loves Loras, why helping MACE? I can’t get it.
…sigh. If you were empathetic to little Renly and fully understood his trauma we wouldn’t be having this conversation in this way. (I’m not saying you’re not an empathetic person in general, mind you. I don’t even know you. But for this situation.)
Children aren’t rational. Children don’t understand what’s best for them. You take your kid to the doctor and give him a shot, he’ll scream. He’ll hate the doctor, he’ll say he hates you. It doesn’t matter that it’s for his health, he’s in pain and he hates what’s causing him pain.
So, six-year-old Renly is starving and having to eat his pony and his dogs and his cats and rats, and why? Because Stannis is stubborn. Because Stannis is mean. Yes, Cressen is explaining it’s important to keep Storm’s End for Robert, that Stannis just wants Renly to be safe, but Renly looks at the Tyrells out there, so pretty and green and nice… and they have so much food… it smells so good, Stannis… please, I’m sure they’d be nice, Stannis, I’m so hungry… please, Stannis, please… Robert would do it, wouldn’t he? Why are you always so mean, Stannis?! I hate you! I hate you forever and ever!
And that sticks. Trauma sticks. Young Renly (who lost his parents as a baby, might not have even been weaned when they had to leave for the Free Cities) wasn’t rational enough to realize it was the Tyrells who were to blame, not rational enough to think his far-away hero Robert would have done the same as Stannis; instead, he focuses on Stannis as the cause of his pain, the one who’s telling him no, the one who makes his tummy growl at night. Yes, the war ended, he grew older, he consciously learned better, he knew the Tyrells were part of the loyalist enemies, he knew it had all been done for his best… But the child deep inside, his subconscious mind still feels that pain in his stomach whenever he looks at Stannis… and associates the Tyrells with luxury and food and pleasure. Pleasure he takes with both hands, never refusing to taste a peach. And Loras comes to be his squire when he’s about 16 or so, and shows him that the Tyrells are human, they aren’t some monsters, they’re real people, they’re kind and loving… He visits Highgarden, green and gold and soft and pretty like his dreams… and Mace is a good man, a good father, generous and kind, like the father he never had… supportive, so proud of Loras, so proud of him, willing to give Renly anything he needs, anything he wants…
Renly was:
as an infant, abandoned by his parents (not their fault that they never returned, but nevertheless)
abandoned by his older brother shortly thereafter (as Robert preferred to stay in the Vale with Jon Arryn and Ned Stark; and probably only came home once in a while to dazzle Renly with hugs and laughter and gifts, much to Stannis’s frustration)
at age 6, forced to live in suffering by serious and mean Stannis (per his child’s mind)
at age 7, abandoned by his brother Stannis and his caretaker Maester Cressen (when they left for Dragonstone)
raised by servants thereafter, the lord of his castle
and you wonder why he has attachment problems? Why he cares for strangers more than he does his family? Why he’s more materialistic than altruistic?
That’s what I mean by empathy. Don’t look at things how you would react to them, how you would think as an adult. If you can imagine being Stannis (age 19, starving, desperately trying to make it from day to day, to survive, to keep your men alive, because it’s your duty, because Robert charged you with this duty, even though you have that nagging thought about how you’re disobeying your king, wouldn’t it be easier to just give up… but no, you must go on, you have to, for Robert, for Renly, to spit in the eye of those damn Tyrells), if you can imagine being a traumatized barely-adult, then you can try and drop down even further and imagine being a traumatized child as well. I won’t say it’s not hard. (I mean, it’s not hard for me, but again, I don’t know you, and in my experience empathy is lacking among too many ASOIAF fans, or is very selective.) But if you work at it, enough, to be that little boy in pain feeling that nobody loves him and nobody cares, and then grow with that boy to the adult he became, then yeah, maybe you can get it.
"He'd sent ravens to the Eyrie, he meant to wed the Lady Lysa Arryn and win the Vale" in Arya VII ACOK. Do you think Tywin was truly offering himself to marry her or was he negotiating with whom did Lysa want to marry and the servants assumed Tywin was offering himself? It would be good to get some sense of Tywin willing for the same duty he wanted on his children, even with his immense hypocrisy.
If we look at that quote in context,
After that it was back to scrubbing and scurrying and listening at doors. Lord Tywin would soon march on Riverrun, she heard. Or he would drive south to Highgarden, no one would ever expect that. No, he must defend King’s Landing, Stannis was the greatest threat. He’d sent Gregor Clegane and Vargo Hoat to destroy Roose Bolton and remove the dagger from his back. He’d sent ravens to the Eyrie, he meant to wed the Lady Lysa Arryn and win the Vale. He’d bought a ton of silver to forge magic swords that would slay the Stark wargs. He was writing Lady Stark to make a peace, the Kingslayer would soon be freed.
we can see that these are all rumors that Arya is hearing during her time with the servants at Harrenhal, and one of the things GRRM frequently plays around with in ASOIAF is that rumors are wildly distorted if they are true at all. Most of these are false. (I am not even sure that Tywin was sending ravens from Harrenhal to the Eyrie? I thought that was just something the servants were assuming.)
I do not think Tywin was offering himself in marriage to Lysa Arryn. (I don’t think Tywin was offering himself in marriage to anyone at this point.) I don’t think Tywin was willing to perform the same duties he asked of his children.
Have you ever wrote down about the similarities and few differences (though one of them is EXCEEDINGLY notable) of Ned... and Stannis? The thesis of ASOIAF with Ned and how was it inculcated in his children was put also in Stannis... in fact, it was like "We'll have Ned advocating it in Book 1 where Stannis is referenced several time, then we'll do the contrary". It makes a point that a Southerner can have his heart and empathy and actively despise nobility. Also: I'm all EYES (srry,Stannis mode
So I disagree quite a bit with this because while I see a lot of parallels between Ned and Stannis including the call for accountability and the refusal of dehumanization of lower social classes, empathy is not one of them. I just don’t think that Stannis is a particularly empathetic individual. Not to say that he is unfeeling or that he is incapable of being empathetic in places (Davos and Jon Snow are big emotional exceptions for him, Melisandre to an extent as well), but I do not think it’s one of his defining qualities. The divide here comes from how different their core character motivation is: Stannis is wired by duty but while Ned is also dutiful, he is wired by mercy first, and it’s that that powers his empathy throughout the series to the point where he readily offers an out to the woman complicit in his own son’s attempted murder because he can not bear the thought of innocent children being harmed as collateral damage. Compare and contrast with Stannis’ proclaimed intent to execute Cersei’s “abominations”. Even Tommen. Even Myrcella. His tendency to refer to to them simply as “Cersei’s abominations” is in and of itself dehumanizing, which is an element that also rears its head when Stannis learns about Gilly being Craster’s daughter as well as wife, and his automatic response is to call her a whore and want the abominations gone. (And honestly, “she is wanted for her teats, not for her tongue” She is not a cow, Stannis Baratheon.)
Stannis posses a merciless streak that comes through in several parts of the narrative, and I often find myself disquieted by the thoughtless cruelty he displays. Stannis is hailed as a truly just man within and without the text but I find that a main requirement for calling someone just is for their doled out punishments to fit the crime they are punishing someone for. Stannis often falls short of that. While the Westerosi justice system is inherently flawed, he takes it to the extreme in some places. The fiery executions are the most obvious example since fire is one of the most excruciating ways to kill someone so there’s a needless prolonged torture component weaved into that capital punishment, but there is also his plan to catapult Ser Gawen Wylde and three others over the walls of Storm’s End after they tried to sneak out to surrender to the waiting Tyrell host. And I just can not stomach the way he treats Theon in the sample TWoW chapter. It’s one thing to condemn a man to die because Theon did earn that by Westerosi legality, but it’s another thing entirely to deliberately inflict pain on him for no purpose. Robb Stark himself spoke against Theon’s torture when Roose presented him with his skin. Whoresbane Umber wanted him killed and not tortured - Whoresbane, Hother fucking Umber, the man who disemboweled a thief. The mountain clans with Stannis just want Theon executed as well. These are the people who have a very personal reason to want revenge on Theon, and none of them advocates for torture. Dead and done with, sure, but no additional pain inflicted. But Stannis…. For some unfathomable reason, Stannis chooses to tie Theon up in a very painful position and ignores his pleas to be put down. And for what purpose? Theon is cooperating with Stannis and telling him what he wants to know so that is not it. Stannis already has every intention to put Theon to death for his crimes. So what does that senseless pain inflicted on someone who is obviously a torture victim accomplish? I don’t expect Stannis to feel sorry for Theon, but this treatment is not justifiable in any way or form because Stannis’ model of justice that is based on personal accountability does not translate to torture being a suitable punishment to a crime that Stannis already plans on executing Theon for. That’s a pattern that really does not fit with what I mentioned in my original post about Ned advocating for compassion and being tuned in to the value of human life.
So if empathy is the standard used to compare Ned and Stannis, I’m afraid that comparison just falls apart. Any attempt to parallel Ned and Stannis in that respect just comes to a screeching halt when you compare the way they handle some similar situations. “What is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?” is very symbolic of that because Ned demonstrated, whether with Jon Snow or Cersei’s children, that his answer, like Davos’, is everything (and YMMV on whether Ned was right or wrong in his actions with Cersei, but I personally don’t think he was mistaken in trying to save the children) while Stannis allowed himself to be persuaded to burn Edric, despite not really wanting to, because he thought it was for the greater good. A main difference here is that Ned looks towards the individual while Stannis looks to the collective which is reflective of their political positions and personal ruling theory. Neither position is innately better than the other, and looking to the collective does bespoke a level of care (it’s not for nothing that Stannis is the “king who still cared”, the only one to answer the call of the Night’s Watch) but the personal empathy I was talking about, the refusal to lose sight of even the individual and the respect shown to every singular life that exists in Ned, is not strong in Stannis. I think Ned’s empathetic capacity and the scale of his rejection of dehumanization surpasses that of Stannis by leaps and bounds. Stannis might refuse to dehumanize lower social classes, but he does dehumanize others, and often.
And on a side note, I don’t think the parallel of detesting nobility holds either. Ned may have recognized the rot in some nobles but he did not actively reject the noble model the way Stannis does. He rejects the way nobility dehumanizes people of lower social status but he does not share Stannis’ low opinion of the nobility and the hierarchy they uphold, or his instinctive drive to raise up the downtrodden. Stannis is quite revolutionary in his “then we will make new lords”.
Do you have any art post or reblog about Young Stannis and Child Renly in the siege of Storm's End? Concretely one where Stannis goes to make sure that Renly has been put to bed but couldn't give him a goodnight kiss because he is so busy with siege things businesses? I want to get sad wondering how the boy Stannis loved became the man he didn't love... I want also to wonder why Renly never cherished this part of Stannis.
I have found and reblogged a few art posts about young Stannis and Renly during the Siege of Storm’s End: these two by @lives-in-a-harpsichord, this one by @shebsart, and this one by @yosb. Not specifically tSoSE, but young Stannis and little Renly: 1, 2, 3, by @polar-biscuit, these two by @rachmaninoffs, and so many by @icesalamander it’s easier just to link to her blog.
Regarding specifically the scene you want, I’m afraid I don’t think there is one, but I’d bet @lives-in-a-harpsichord would do it, she’s excellent for those agony Stannis feels.
And Renly probably never wanted to “cherish” anything related to that time period because it was terrifying and he was six years old and starving. The fact that the one memory he speaks of is when Stannis ordered their man-at-arms Gawen Wylde and three knights to be strapped to a catapult to be flung from the walls – that he clearly remembers the look on Wylde’s face, the man who likely had placed his first wooden sword in his hand – that he speaks of Maester Cressen having to persuade Stannis not to do it, as it would be a waste of good meat for when they had to eat their dead… god. He was six, and so hungry, and Stannis was so stubborn, and the Tyrells and Rowans and Redwynes were feasting just outside the walls while they were eating dogs (he was six years old, and eating the pups he had cuddled weeks before), eating horses (did he have a pony, once?) and cats and rats… no… even if Renly consciously knew it was their duty to keep Storm’s End for Robert… even if he was aware Stannis’s stubborness was half to keep him from becoming hostage to the Tyrells… “cherish” that part of Stannis? Never.
Is Davos an introvert? He does not seem to crave for social contact, oddly like Stannis, but I do not know if it is the correct interpretation, since, having already Stannis being an introvert, his bestie being an extrovert would be the normal, although of course, GRRM might think different and set two different kind of introvert to add differences. I say it because it is odd Davos not missing social interaction of his earlier times, in a job always demanding social interaction. Your Thoughts?
Sometimes it’s hard to tell whether ASOIAF POV characters are introverts because the narrative, by nature, is very self-oriented – they all spend a great deal of time in their heads because we’re in their heads. :) Also, because it’s ASOIAF, the POV characters tend to undergo a great deal of emotional trauma and are cut off from their support system, friends, family, etc. – we usually don’t see them at their best, relaxed and natural, we see them undergoing great stress. Even the most naturally extroverted person might shut down in that case, or switch to what is called the “shadow self”, the dark opposite of their personality functions.
That said, if you look at Davos’s background and memories of his past, he still seems naturally introverted. He’s good with people, yes, but he doesn’t do parties and socializing, he doesn’t put himself forward. (When he does, it’s usually when an important principle is being violated, when others are being hurt, and if he doesn’t stand for it, who will.) Davos has friends, but few and close ones over the years, and most of those are far more bombastic and outgoing than he is. (Compare him to Salladhor Saan, for example.) His most important feature is his great loyalty.
Re Stannis, introverts often get along extremely well with other introverts, as their personalities don’t grate on their nerves and they’re respectful of the other’s need for privacy. Extroverts are their complements, to bring them out of their shells – but does Davos do that with Stannis? Not particularly, he just listens and lets Stannis express his frustrations. Also, Stannis, as an ISTJ, will “form solid connections with other SJs”.
So, if I had to type Davos (I did my usual “get into their head and take a test” thing – but I checked and double-checked other personality types too), I would select ISFJ. This type is often called “the Defender”, and “the Protector”, and it’s pretty common in the world (about 7%-14% of people) and I believe it’s fairly common in ASOIAF. (Brienne, for another; possibly Catelyn too, possibly also Sansa.) In other fiction, Samwise Gamgee is a classic ISFJ, as is Dr. John Watson.
So, ISFJ (Introverted Sensing Feeling Judging)- with cognitive functions of Dominant: Introverted Sensing; Auxiliary: Extraverted Feeling; Tertiary: Introverted Thinking; Inferior: Extraverted Intuition. Some short descriptions:
Quiet, friendly, responsible, and conscientious. Committed and steady in meeting their obligations. Thorough, painstaking, and accurate. Loyal, considerate, notice and remember specifics about people who are important to them, concerned with how others feel. Strive to create an orderly and harmonious environment at work and at home. – Myers-Briggs Foundation
The ISFJ theme is protecting and caretaking, making sure their charges are safe from harm. Talents lie in making sure everything is taken care of so others can succeed and accomplish their goals. Desiring to serve individual needs, often work long hours. Quietly friendly, respectful, unassuming. Thrive on serving quietly without fanfare. Devoted to doing whatever is necessary to ensure shelter and safety, warning about pitfalls and dangers and supporting along the way. –Cognitive Processes
Some more detailed descriptions:
Portrait of an ISFJ (careers, relationships, personal growth)
Defender Personality: ISFJ
ISFJ: The Protector (careers, relationships - note particularly the “kindred spirit” of the ISTJ)
Typelogic- ISFJ Profile (my favorite bit: “They are capable of forming strong loyalties, but these are personal rather than institutional loyalties; if someone they’ve bonded with in this way leaves the company, the ISFJ will leave with them, if given the option.”)
ISFJ (Defender) Personality Type (note lots more links at the bottom)
And specifically for comparison with Stannis’s type, please check this page, it’s excellent. The major things that leap out at me are that ISTJs are dutiful whereas ISFJs are loyal; ISTJs are detached where ISFJs are supportive; and of course there’s the conflict of cold logical facts vs decisions based on emotions and the right thing to do.
I don't forget. Just believe that his obsession for law is for achieving justice as ultimate goal. Laws = Means, Justice = Goal. I don't think he would have followed Robert if Robert was the lawbreaker. Note: I did not put Joffrey because boy or not, he knew his power and did what he did. His hypocrisy is l-obster-ovable sometimes but not this. Edric is not at fault, why Myrcella and Tom are? If he gets Tommen at Rosby, he kills a kid??? How's that just? Stannis does bend for justice. I... HOPE.
Also his first concern with Tommen is that “Westeros needs a man, not a boy”, and the incestuous conception only second, and look how he tells it “another monster IN THE MAKING” that is, and given his experience with Aerys, to me, that he does make a rationale around it. That if you are born of incest (despite this not being so true) you are more likely to be a monster. But well, as you can note, my babbling is a HOPEFUL, too much hopeful one…
I say some fans forget Stannis’s hard view on justice because they do, I’m sorry. Notably, there is a great difference between justice and mercy.
During the High Holidays, Jews pray for God’s mercy, not his justice, because we know that under strict justice, sinners deserve death. When the shofar is blown on Rosh Hashana, there is a prayer: “Today is the birthday of the world, and all its creatures stand to be judged. Some as children, some as servants. If you see us as your children, have mercy upon us, as a father has mercy on his children. If as servants, we look to you in prayer until you temper your justice with compassion, and decide in our favor.” (The tune it’s sung with is heartwrenching, and often brings tears to my eyes, though tbf the sound of the shofar blowing has got my emotions up high already.) Note, “justice tempered with compassion” is one of the meanings of the Hebrew word tzedek… often translated as righteousness. Similarly, a word derived from that one, tzadik, is usually translated as “a righteous man”.
For Stannis, justice = executing examples of treason. Mercy = realizing those examples are innocent children and sparing them from death. Stannis is justice, Davos is mercy. That’s the whole point. That’s the whole entire point of Davos’s chapters in A Storm of Swords, especially Davos VI, where Stannis learns Joffrey’s dead, and Melisandre tries to persuade him that now more than ever they need to conquer King’s Landing by waking the stone dragon via sacrificing Edric, and Davos argues against it one last time before he reveals that he’s gotten Edric the heck out of Dragonstone and most importantly gives Stannis a better more merciful life’s mission with the letter from the Night’s Watch.
I’ve said many times the Amazon UK interview with GRRM is a favorite. That’s the one where GRRM says this terribly important statement about Stannis (and about the threat of the Others vs the game of thrones):
And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI.
People, particularly Stannis stans, seize on GRRM saying that Stannis is a righteous man, and that is true and very important to remember. However, what they fail to notice is “in spite of everything”. In spite of everything else about Stannis, his jealousy and bitterness and pettiness and regimentality and hard-assed view of law and justice, all his flaws. Furthermore, why did Stannis become one of the few characters to understand the real issue in the series is the threat of the Others? Because Davos read him the letter from the Night’s Watch.
“Yes, I should have come sooner. If not for my Hand, I might not have come at all. Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.“ Stannis pointed north. “There is where I’ll find the foe that I was born to fight.” –ASOS, Jon XI
Why is Stannis a righteous man? Because Davos made him become one. He showed Stannis the correct path was his duty and not his rights, and not merciless justice, but justice tempered with compassion and mercy.
(But note that once they separate, Stannis starts fading back away from this mercy; all the more so once he believes that Davos is dead, executed by Wyman Manderly because of the mission Stannis sent him on.)
Specific rebuttals under the cut:
“I don’t think he would have followed Robert if Robert was the lawbreaker.”
“It is every man’s duty to remain loyal to his rightful king, even if the lord he serves proves false,” Stannis declared in a tone that brooked no argument.A desperate folly took hold of Davos, a recklessness akin to madness. “As you remained loyal to King Aerys when your brother raised his banners?” he blurted.[…“T]he truth is a bitter draught at times. Aerys? If you only knew… that was a hard choosing. My blood or my liege. My brother or my king.”
–ASOS, Davos IV
Stannis does not mention lawbreaking here, only the bonds of blood vs his duty to his king. And strictly, Robert was breaking the law by rebelling against the rightful king. Yes, many fans argue that Robert’s Rebellion was just, that Aerys broke the feudal compact when he executed Brandon and his companions and their lordly fathers without trial – but Stannis doesn’t talk about that. He only mentions choosing his brother over the king who would have had his head. Furthermore, he says, “Ser Barristan once told me that the rot in King Aerys’s reign began with Varys.” He’s not even blaming Aerys for his own crimes! It’s kind of fascinating, tbh.
“Note: I did not put Joffrey because boy or not, he knew his power and did what he did.” After Stannis finds out Joffrey’s been murdered, you can see him trying to justify that in his head, and he resorts to a memory where a Joffrey as a boy showed his budding psychopathy by cutting open a pregnant cat. Stannis never talks about the cruelties of Joffrey’s deeds as a king, none of those crimes – he doesn’t mention anything about his kingship other than being undeserving of the throne as he was not Robert’s true son, as an abomination born of incest. Stannis only tries to reconcile his mind about a murdered boy, with something terrible a boy did. Again, a truly fascinating view of the world.
“Edric is not at fault, why Myrcella and Tom are?” Yes, exactly, that’s just what I was saying. Edric is not at fault for being born Robert’s bastard, but Stannis would have sacrificed him anyway for the greater good of waking the stone dragon, if not for Davos. Myrcella and Tommen are not at fault for their birth, but they are still abominations and living examples of treason, and must be scoured. And as I said, if Stannis had been able to win at Blackwater and acquired Tommen and Myrcella for execution, I think Davos would have been able to pray mercy for them, or help them escape, as he did with Edric.
“Also his first concern with Tommen is that “Westeros needs a man, not a boy”, and the incestuous conception only second”. You literally have that backwards, I’m sorry.
“Tommen is gentler than Joffrey, but born of the same incest. Another monster in the making. Another leech upon the land. Westeros needs a man’s hand, not a child’s.” –ASOS, Davos VI
“and look how he tells it “another monster IN THE MAKING” that is, and given his experience with Aerys, to me, that he does make a rationale around it. That if you are born of incest (despite this not being so true) you are more likely to be a monster.” Stannis never mentions Targaryens ever in reference to abominations. (As he should not, since that incestuous heritage is part of his own ancestry.) He never refers to Aerys in reference to Joffrey. You’re drawing a conclusion that is baseless. Per Stannis’s own letter to the lords of Westeros, he does not say that Joffrey does not deserve the throne because he was a monster (though he was), but because he was not Robert’s son… yes, an abomination born of incest, but most importantly not Robert’s true heir.
But note, when Stannis says Tommen is a monster in the making, he’s trying to justify to himself why a boy must die (despite the fact he knows he’s a very different child than Joffrey)… but most importantly, why Edric has to die, since Melisandre has convinced him it’s the only way he can be king, with a sacrifice to wake a dragon, a dragon to scour the court. Two children must die for Stannis to be king, a third if he counts Myrcella, for his “duty to the realm”. And to his credit, he hates knowing this, he’s constantly asking Melisandre if she’s sure the sacrifice will work, that there’s no other way. That’s why when Davos reveals two things – that sacrificing Edric is impossible since he’s gone, and that his true duty is not to take the throne but to save the Watch from the wildlings and the Others – Stannis leaps at the chance. A chance to change his own definition of the most just thing to do. A chance to not kill children (even if bastards and abominations), but to kill actual monsters.
The question is, if this choice comes again – if in the most desperate of straits, Melisandre convinces him a dragon must wake to fight the Others, the foe he was born to fight, and the only king’s blood sacrifice possible is his own daughter – what will Stannis decide?
Will his choice be justice tempered with compassion and mercy, or merciless justice? If his duty to the realm, to the world, to all of humanity, requires putting his mercy aside – if there is no Davos there to be the voice of mercy as before – if one child must die to save millions… what will he choose? Will Stannis be a righteous man… or a just man?
“He is utterly without mercy. There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man.”
That should stick with you. It does with me. I hope things will be otherwise. I pray things will be otherwise. But I don’t know, and it hurts.
“But well, as you can note, my babbling is a HOPEFUL, too much hopeful one…”
Yes… well… we’ll just have to see if it is too much hope, won’t we.
My conception of justice is punishing the sinners. Tommen and Myrcella had no part on their conception. Joffrey is guilty of other crimes. Edric is not guilty of his own conception and Stannis acknowledges it. "in spite of everything" means that Stannis, like others, is a man who thinks on the general good even with failures such as a tremendous misogyny, an incredible pettiness, etc. I never took it as "Tom, Myr, dead, not my fault, blame Daddy". That being said... I can only HOPE I am right...
Sorry for double ask. “If you only knew…” elliptical included, it seems he was not telling everything. How does a just man choose between blood or liege? If not by what is just or right, what does he do? It would have been tremendously easy to quit Robert. He’s then the lord. Maybe rewarded further. Also Alester never read him the letter (and Davos mercy does not work when advocating mercy for Alester btw) and believes Cersei killed Ned and was not in KL. And more but if I reblog you’d answer?
You can reblog or reply to any of my posts, though whether I respond to those replies is my choice. Feel free to be as succinct or as Dr. Bronner’s soap label as you like.
But in this case, I don’t see the point. You came to me – saying you knew you might be rebuffed – asking if Stannis really meant what he said when he said he planned to execute Cersei and all her children as part of his scouring of the court, because you didn’t think he did. I said yes, he really did mean that. You came back with a dispute and I came back with more proof. There is nothing more you can say that will ever make me agree with you. You’re wrong, I’m sorry, but you’re wrong.
And the reason you’re wrong is because you want Stannis, this character you love, to be a hero. He’s not, I’m sorry. He’s an amazing character! He’s a fascinating character! I love him too! But he’s not a pure good perfect hero who never does anything wrong. He’s not the rightful most honorable king who is full of merciful justice and correct choices and is unfairly slighted because people are only mean to him because he’s not handsome and fashionable and charismatic.
Stannis makes mistakes. He has terrible opinions. His sense of justice is skewed and without mercy. He does and says and agrees to unjust things. He’s often hypocritical as all hell. In most of ACOK and ASOS he is not by any real definition a good man. But the point of his arc in ASOS (in the Davos and Wall POVs) is that Stannis changes. Davos convinces him to ignore his greedy hangers-on who would sack Claw Isle for no real reason than potential profit. Davos begs and pleads with him not to sacrifice Edric Storm, and eventually makes it a fait accompli to prevent it altogether. Davos shows him a better path than sacrificing innocents for the promise of a dragon, or killing innocents for a throne. Davos shows Stannis how to become something almost like a hero, “the king who still cared”, the one leader to answer the desperate call of the Night’s Watch, “a righteous man”.
This journey is important! It’s important not to forget what Stannis started from. The terrible things he wanted to do. (Killing Myrcella and Tommen.) The terrible things he almost did. (Sacrificing Edric.) The terrible things he actually did. (Too many to list right here, alas.*) And the great things he also did. (Saving the Night’s Watch.) The unjustness he prevented. (Slynt as LC, gah.) The unjustness he’s trying to correct. (Freeing the North from the Boltons.) The charitable things he’s doing. (Sending “Arya” to Jon even though she would be very valuable and politically helpful to keep with him.) And the unjust and terrible things he’s still doing, and might still do. And the great things he might yet do. It’s all important to remember. It’s all Stannis, the bad and the good and the great and the terrible.
*(One name: Courtnay Penrose. OK, more than one name: Burning the accused cannibal soldiers alive was terrible, and not justice either. If they were to be executed for their crimes, it should have been with a clean beheading or a less clean but still quick hanging. Burning them alive as a sacrifice to R’hllor to stop the blizzard is cruel and unusual punishment, unjust, and is not meant to reflect well on Stannis or his state of mind or his future arc. Same with burning Alester Florent as a sacrifice for good winds on the way north – he was guilty of treason, he deserved death per law, but should he have been burned alive? Fuck no. That is cruelty, not law. Same with “Mance”, why else did Jon have him shot to put him out of his misery? Fans who excuse Stannis with “oh he had to because of Melisandre/the queen’s men yadda yadda” are missing the point. He’s not meant to be excused. Stannis himself would not let you excuse him. That’s the whole point.)
But please remember, it’s ok to love a flawed character. It’s ok to love a flawed character who changes to be less flawed. It’s ok to love a flawed character who changes to be more flawed. It’s ok to love a flawed character who never changes at all. You can love villains and anti-villains and anti-heroes just as they are! You can love them for how they change, you can love them for how they don’t change. But you don’t need to make them into someone else, you don’t need to pretend these flaws don’t exist, for them to be worthy of love.
Stannis is a marvelous character, smart and sarcastically hilarious and full of heartwrenching history and choices, past and present and future. He’s full of flaws and greatness and terribleness and amazingness. Lots of people identify with him, and love him. Heck, I love him. But I love him for everything he actually is, and don’t try to pretend he’s not that. I hope you can one day too.
I know I might be rebuffed, but is it really hard to think what when Stannis means "to scour that court clean. Starting with Cersei and her abominations. But only starting" he does not mean the death of Tommen and Myrcella? They are innocents of any crime. Edric is supposed to be a sacrifice. He doesn't like how he came to exist, yet he says that whatever the truth of his conception, Edric is faultless. In this society, that is something noticeable. He does not think to kill Monster just for it.
Yeah, sorry, Stannis means Tommen and Myrcella will be executed as part of his “scouring” of the court. GRRM uses the word “abomination” for a reason. It’s lost so much of its power in today’s society, but it means the worst possible thing, something that’s a horror, something that shouldn’t be allowed to exist. Abomination = not worthy of life.
During one of the lulls between the gales, as Sam clung white-knuckled to the rail wanting desperately to retch, he heard some of the crew muttering that this was what came of bringing a woman aboard ship, and a wildling woman at that. “Fucked her own father,” Sam heard one man say, as the wind was rising once again. “Worse than whoring, that. Worse than anything. We’ll all drown unless we get rid of her, and that abomination that she whelped.”Sam dared not confront them. They were older men, hard and sinewy, their arms and shoulders thickened by years at the oars. But he made certain that his knife was sharp, and whenever Gilly left the cabin to make water, he went with her.
–AFFC, Samwell II
From the Starry Sept came a denunciation such as no king had ever received before, addressed to “King Abomination"—and suddenly pious lords and even the smallfolk who had once loved Aenys turned against him. –TWOIAF
"Joffrey is not my brother’s seed,” Stannis said bluntly. “Nor is Tommen. They are bastards. The girl as well. All three of them abominations born of incest.” –ACOK, Catelyn III
“It is not a question of wanting. The throne is mine, as Robert’s heir. That is law. […] I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert. He loved me but little, I know, yet he was my brother. The Lannister woman gave him horns and made a motley fool of him. She may have murdered him as well, as she murdered Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. For such crimes there must be justice. Starting with Cersei and her abominations.” –Stannis, ASOS, Davos IV
“Traitors have always paid with their lives. […] It is law. Law, Davos. Not cruelty.” –Stannis, ASOS, Davos IV
“[Stannis’s] claim is the true one, he is known for his prowess as a battle commander, and he is utterly without mercy. There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man.”–Varys, AGOT, Eddard XV
The difference to Stannis with Gilly and her baby is that they’re not an anathema to law and justice, not a symbol of the corruption of the court, of Cersei’s cuckolding of Robert, of the usurpation of the throne through lies and iniquity and treason. Therefore he’s satisfied with sending them away from the Wall. But Cersei, Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella need to be made into an example, to show that the Lannister corruption of the capital is ended root and branch.
Maybe, maybe Davos could have persuaded Stannis to be merciful, to send the younger two children to the Night’s Watch or the Faith. (Joffrey has no chance, none whatsoever.) Maybe Davos would end up smuggling them out at midnight, away to exile in Essos. But most likely, as I’ve said before, if Stannis had managed to win at the Blackwater (and if nobody had been smart enough to get Tommen and Myrcella the hell out of town before the battle), the smoke of the pyres would have been seen for miles outside of King’s Landing…
