I really think that a lot of antisemitism coming from some leftist spaces can be explained by the simple fact that they hate nazis but don't like jews either, and nobody calls each other out on this because "I hate nazis and listen to punk music, I can't POSSIBLY be antisemitic !!!"
To be fair, I've also seen this done with Roma people, it's always the same fucking thing. Those wannabe révolutionnaires only want to punch nazis, but never educate themselves about the cultures those same nazis are still actively trying to eradicate.
I am part Romani part Jewish, and let me tell you, i've heard things come out from so called "activists"'s mouths that could be confused with excerpts from a KKK pamphlet.
So if you want to call yourself an anti-nazi, maybe try to reflect on what you REALLY think of Jews, Roma, severely disabled folks, and any minority that doesn't fit on your civil rights inspired moodboard.
Also, ENGAGE with those cultures, it's the best way to fight nazi ideology in your day to day life ! Learn Romani, Yiddish or Judeo Spanish, go to interfaith events, try to petition for your local Roma community, we often live in terrible conditions (right next to gated communities sometimes !!!) and please, for the love of G.od, when a Jew calls something antisemitic, LISTEN. Learn about the long history of both antisemtism and antitziganism.
If you actively avoid to do that, but still claim to "punch nazis", you're no better than a white christian supremacist, and if you only condemn SOME racisms, then I fear you might wanna look deeper into Orientalism, because yes, even the Good Guys can be gross fetishists feeding off of the oppression of vulnerable communities.
As a leftist myself, I deeply want to see the movement change for the better, and change is never comfortable, I get that, but if you can't stand the inherent discomfort that comes with introspection, my adice is to stay out of politics, for both your sake and ours.
"How realistic is the Sinti representation in Suburra?" - A translation of the VICE interview with Alexian Santino Spinelli and Niccolò Carradori
Hello everyone! As you can probably guess, I’m a huge fan of the tv show Suburra: Blood on Rome. Over the course of this past year, I’ve met quite a few fellow fans, some of them not from Italy. A lot of those passionate fans were thirsty to learn more about all aspects of the show, with questions pertaining to language, culture, politics and representation. I can answer a lot of the questions related to Italian language and culture, and about Rome specifically, but when it comes to the question of Sinti representation, I don’t have first hand experience myself!
As most watchers know, the show is very clumsy in terms of diversity, as illustrated (among other things) by the questionable choice not to cast actors of Sinti descent to play any of the main Sinti roles. In 2017, VICE published an interview with Sinti advocate Santino “Alexian” Spinelli, asking his opinion about the quality of the representation in the show.
I wanted to make this interview accessible to international viewers of the show, so I gave a go at my own translation. However, I am in no way a professional translator, so I apologize in advance for any inaccuracy or mistranslation that might have occurred. You can find the original interview linked in the translated article. Let me stop babbling and let’s jump right into it!
"How realistic is the Sinti representation in Suburra?"
In the show, the Anacletis are portrayed as a very large family, with set traditions and a clearly defined esthetic.
By Niccolò Carradori, 25.10.17, for VICE.com
I don't know about you, but my favorite Suburra character, both in the show as well as in the 2015 movie, is Spadino. Not only because his name is Spadino, or because he's the one with the most interesting characterization, but also for all the weird and emphatic expressions he puts on whenever he's trying to act though.
As I was watching the show, however, I caught myself wondering several times if the representation of his family and of the Sinti ethnic group overall - however influenced by the show's context of criminality - wasn't excessively stereotypical. The Anacletis are indeed portrayed as an impressively extensive family, with a taste for interior design at the crossroads between the Palace of Versailles, Tony Montana's house, and some kind of burlesque establishment.
Moreover, the dynamics of house Anacleti are deeply anchored in tradition: at the beginning of the series, we see Spadino forced to partake in an arranged marriage, including an engagement party during which he is expected to demonstrate his commitment towards his future bride in front of their whole community. Meanwhile, homosexuality is presented as a taboo so heavy, it might threaten one’s life.
In order to understand just how many of the aforementioned aspects depicted in Suburra are actually true to life, I have contacted Santino "Alexian" Spinelli - a musician and university lecturer of Rom ethnicity, author of two essays - whose mission has always been to promote understanding of Rom and Sinti culture, through the work of the non-profit Thèm Romanò.
VICE: I would like to begin with your general opinion of the show, and the impression it gives of the community. Taking into account that the family depicted is first of all a criminal one, before being Sinti, what impressions did you receive as you were watching?
Alexian Santino Spinelli: Setting aside the context of organized crime, from the very beginning I realized that the image given off by the show was an overwhelmingly stereotypical one. And all these stereotypes, used in depicting the Anacleti in Suburra, truly go to show how marginalized Sinti communities are in Italy: a country where such communities have been present as early as 1300, but where very little is still known of their traditions, language, literature and art.
Let's take for instance the aesthetic element: the garish homes, with their fancy furniture entirely gilded in gold, white statues and draperies appearing here and there, the blue velvet sofa - all of it generates a particular atmosphere in the series, as if those homes represented a parallel universe.
Yes, absolutely. It's an element which mutates from an overly simplified aspect of culture - such as the importance of gold - which is then taken to the extreme in order to cement this idea of a defined community. Of course, in Rom culture, gold does have an apotropaic function, and having golden jewelry on one's body or one's home helps warding off evil - and that reckons back to the fact that historically Rom were specialized in working with metals - but there is no such "standard" as the one a viewer might interpret from watching the series.
The same also goes for the muscle cars, the sparkly tracksuits and the tacky haircuts…
These are all details which, in my opinion, meld together to create a deceptively dangerous idea - which would be that inside such groups, there is a push to seek ostentatious and tasteless wealth, to be achieved - and this is what I find questionable - at any and all cost, even outside the confines of the law. If you met any of my children in the street, you would not be able to guess that they are Rom from any aesthetic clue... I myself have two degrees, a Conservatory diploma, and an Honorary Citizenship [to the city of Laterza], but I drive around in a simple, old station wagon.
And then there's all of the Anacletis’ family dynamics: the arranged marriage between Spadino and the daughter of the head of another family, the scrutiny as to her virginity… how far off is this image compared to the reality of the Sinti experience?
It is true that virginity is an important value in Romanì culture. However, this too shifts from a notion rooted in tradition, with its own specific context, and is pushed to the extreme. Arranged marriages in Rom communities - in the same way they did in rural Italian culture - happened 80, 100 years ago. Nowadays, young people in the community choose each other freely, and especially they are free to reject any unwanted proposal. It is true, however, that there exists a formal "etiquette" to follow in such matters.
For instance, the aspiring groom - in order to display his interest towards a girl to the concerned families and the community as a whole, and therefore secure a potential engagement - follows the rite of Buchvibbe, also known as "serenade". It is a very unique courtship ritual specific to Italian Rom of very old settlement, which the series draws its inspiration from. And which would be the group I personally belong to.
Culturally, young people are not allowed to enter the homes of families they are not closely related to, at least not without a valid motive. If there exists the wish for a betrothal, this wish is to be expressed in front of the families, their relatives and their friends. A lot of people are invited, a party is thrown, and a band is hired to play three songs - the aforementioned serenade - dedicated to the girl whose hand is being asked in marriage. Two more songs are then dedicated to all relatives on the bride-to-be's father’s side, who by tradition are closer and more involved in decisions pertaining to family matters. The families will receive these serenades in silence, and the next day, "ambassadors” from the groom-to-be’s family will return with a formal proposal to the bride’s father, who is honor-bound to attend the morning banquet the suitor’s family will have organized. At this time, the father will return his answer to the proposal. But of course, all of this happens after the daughter has been consulted on the matter. The father's response will be the one his daughter gave.
From then on, the engaged couple are permitted to date, but will never be left alone together before the wedding, because - and on that, the show is truthful - virginity is very important in Rom culture. Virginity is an non-negotiable condition for the girl to be able to receive other Buchvibbe. The engagement can also be broken at any time before the wedding, and the girl as said can receive other proposals. Nowadays, "serenades" are very much planned in advance by the couple. It is a rite they decide to partake in - indeed, young women are often the ones to suggest a serenade to the young man - and only when they are sure of it. This is because giving life to such an event can be very expensive… We're talking about bringing together 100, 200, sometimes 300 guests, since Rom families are very large and usually no one is left out of the gathering.
In the show, the families are indeed shown to be very numerous.
That is true to life. Creating large, very close-knit family units and living together has always been a priority in the Romanì community. I'll tell you even more: every action, be it positive or negative, is always perceived collectively and never individually. In-group solidarity, constant moving around and endogamous relationships are historically the only defenses such groups had at their disposal for survival.
To pull together and to live almost in symbiosis - everything said and done is said and done to the whole family - is very important. To show respect and solidarity towards one's relatives is an important value. Rom value family, but in the show, everything is amplified negatively, and that which is a positive value is presented as something negative.
Let's move on to the question of homosexuality: one of the main characters belongs to the Anacleti family and is gay. His mother is aware of this, but the young man is still forced to hide his sexuality or else "he will be killed." In reality, how is homosexuality perceived?
Here we have to have a more complex discussion. As is true for a lot of other minority cultures, homosexuality is rejected. Socially, this happens because it [homosexuality] does not guarantee the perpetuation of the community, the survival of the ethnicity. It is a form of anthropological taboo linked to procreation and group preservation, as theorized by Claude Lévi-Strauss. But the stigmatization of homosexual people, as we know, is not exclusive to this community.
It is true that inside the Romanì community, a person who manifests their homosexuality is made fun of and marginalized. However, just like in non-Rom communities, young Rom too can live out their sexuality. Of course, like everywhere, there are families who are accepting and others who are not.
Overall, in many ways the series gives off the idea that the community the Anacletis belong to inhabits a space so separate from the others as to be almost unintelligible…
You see, the issue isn't so much presenting something so stereotypical as to appear almost grotesque, it's more about doing so when so few watching have the tools at their disposal to understand that the image they are being shown is a heavily stylized one, very distant from reality.
If a similar thing had happened in regards to the traditional garbs of Jewish people - just to pick the first example that comes to mind - the media, institutional, political and social reaction would have been much stronger. Here, on the other hand, there is no push-back. When it comes to Rom you can say or do anything, because no one will react.
okay since we're at it, I would like to explain a thing or two about Rromani people : a lot of gadjes don't understand that we've been actively oppressed by the medical field for centuries. I'm talking experiments, forced sterilisation, abusive child placements, rape, obstetrical violence etc...
My great-grand father was a porajmos (Rroma holocaust) survivor, and the only thing he passed down to my grandma is fear. Fear of hospitals, social workers, teachers. Because the community as a whole has been betrayed by them. So yeah a lot of us don't like to "mix" with the non-Rroma population, because this generational fear remains. It's not my case beacause my mom always tried to heal from this centuries old trauma, but i've had friend with loving parents who never saw a doctor because of our grandparents's stories of medical abuse.
It's a fucking circle : We are afraid of social workers, so we don't sollicit them, then we end up even poorer, same with doctors and shrinks.
I just wish I didn't have to explain that we're not in poor health by choice.
In France, the Rroma internment camps were freed in 1946 !!! travellers couldn't vote until 2013 !!!! Of course wer'e scared of authorities.
Another thing I'd like to point is that we don't commemorate the holocaust the way other populations do. Growing up, my Ashkenazi familiy was very adament that we HAD to remember, to understand the past so it can stay in the past. But my Rroma side buried it. Out of shame, out of fear. I had a great grandpa who was a Rroma Auschwitz survivor who tried to pass as a Jew for the rest of his life for fuck sake.
I'm also incredibly priviledged, despite being dirt poor, I've never been beaten up or subject to medical or police bruatlty, I look kinda white, so people usually attack me for being jewish instead of rroma but I think my point still stand.
The word beginning with sz is a slur. It is not, as I (and perhaps Jonathan) incorrectly assumed, a more respectful way of referring to the people in question since it's what they call themselves. Stoker chose it because he thought the more familiar slur (beginning in g) had too many positive connotations.
Sadly, the plotpoint as a whole is incredibly racist, and simply moving words around doesn't save it (and might even make it worse), but we can at least perhaps forestall the terminological missteps of last year
