Stan not seeing the issue until it impacts him personally immediately made me think of that scene from Bass To Mouth where he thinks Eavesdropper is hilarious until his email leaks
Eeeexactly!
There’s actually a couple of other instances that come immediately to mind when I think about his aspect of his character:
- A nice chunk of the plot of With Apologies to Jesse Jackson centers around how Stan simply cannot comprehend how it feels to have a slur used against him, because he has the privilege of being a white guy in a predominantly white town. His entire arc in that episode revolves around the fact that he cannot, and will not ever truly understand what it feels like to not have that privilege.
-The conversation the boys have the day after Eric eats all the chicken skin in The Death of Eric Cartman also feels very telling:
Stan: I can’t believe that fat asshole!
Kyle: You can’t believe it? He does this shit all the time!
Stan: Well this time he’s gone too far!
Kenny: Yeah, fuck him!
Stan: Why do we even hang out with him, anyway?
Kyle: Hello? I’ve been saying this for years!
Like, of course Kyle isn’t surprised by Cartman’s bullshit, Kyle ends up on the receiving end of Cartman’s special brand of asshole behavior far more than Stan, or frankly either of the other main boys (though Kenny does still get it for being poor). Note here I also find it really telling that when asked why they were ignoring Cartman by the other boys, Kyle answers with “because he’s a fat racist self-centered intolerant manipulating sociopath” rather than either of the other boys actually chiming in with the reason they finally decided to cut him off. They tolerated the blatant bigotry, but chose to cut ties with him only after he did something that actually hurt them personally.
- And obviously, the way he’s behaving in the new season. Both him trying to tell Kyle and Wendy to just “ignore” Clyde’s proselytizing grift in Got a Nut (in which his privilege is literally pointed out to him), and the way he tries to advise Kyle to “let it go” when he’s getting worked up about the bet in Conflict of Interest. As Wendy essentially puts it, it’s very easy for him to turn a blind eye to these things that stoke hate when he isn’t the one on the receiving end of said hate.
I find this character beat really interesting for Stan, because it adds this layer of… ignorance that I think has gotten lost in some of the newer seasons. While the kids were often extremely naive and inexperienced in the early in the show’s run (since, you know, they’re kids) I think most people agree that the last several years have seen them behaving more like adults in most situations. This degree of naivety that comes with not facing the kinds of bigotry or discrimination that someone in a minority group has likely faced (especially in the good ole USA) keeps him sort of grounded in that childlike mindset, while still feeling accurate to a decent portion of the adult population.
From a storytelling/social commentary perspective he plays a really interesting middle man to Cartman and Kyle’s extremes. While Kyle is painfully aware of the way minorities (specifically, obviously, Jewish Americans) are treated, and Cartman has always been a stand-in/parody of the extreme ignorance of bigots, Stan sort of stands somewhere in between. While not actively hateful like Cartman, his inability — or perhaps disinterest — in attempting to step into the shoes of those minorities, shows (in my humble opinion) how unhelpful, and at times even harmful that mentality can also be.
Okay I need to stop there, but thank you for once again giving me an excuse to blab about my favorite cartoon fourth graders! I’ve been so in the mood to blab about them, but I feel very out of touch since it’s been a while since I’ve watched a lot of the older episodes proper. I want to dabble in rewatches though, especially since this show is about the only thing keeping me from falling into a horrible depression about the state of the world! :’)
I really enjoyed it too! Butters refusing to talk to the police was so funny, and Yates is always good for a laugh. I think about the bit with him wanting to play Red Dead Redemption all the time.
yeah, I absolutely do wanna read your thoughts on Butters's characterization. I also think it's really interesting that the promos didn't mention at all that Kenny helped him every step of the way
I'm glad you had a good time, too! Butters' little frown in those scenes was so fucking precious!
I'm truthfully feeling less passionate about defending the direction Butters' character has been going in, perhaps because I've been seeing more people being positive about it here on Tumblr, but... I can't resist an opportunity to blab മ◡മ
So the sentiment that I've been seeing is that Butters is leaning too far into being a sexist little shit, where in his earlier appearances he was always very sweet, and therefore this direction feels out of character for him.
In my humble opinion? I think it makes perfect sense for him to have fallen down the sexism rabbit hole.
Let's start with an early example of Butters having a complicated relationship with women: s7e14, Raisins. I've seen this episode raised as an example of him being quite good to women, and while I think his intentions were good, the reality is that his affection, to the degree that it was presented, was not wanted.
Yes, he's clearly too naive to understand that the relationship with Lexus is purely transactional, but he also doesn't really take any time to consider what she may want out of the relationship. He just sort of... Hands her money, receives her positive attention and assumes that's all it takes. He takes zero issue with treating her as kinda of an object. I also think the conversation his mother has with Porsche is very telling, but I'll come back to that.
So while I think Butters does take something important away from the whole experience, and his beautiful sadness speech is lovely (and very important to me personally), it still centers around... Him. He still never seems to understand that his advances were unwanted, nor how they may have made Lexus feel (and she clearly felt unsafe given she had a security guard escort her to her bike to keep Butters away from her). Hell, he hardly even accepts that she was taking advantage of him financially in the first place, acting like her telling him the truth was merely a breakup and not a reality check.
I think another early example of Butters behaving in a way that isn’t very cool to women is s13e11 Butters Bottom Bitch. Yes, the joke is that he’s, once again, too naive to realize what he’s gotten himself into, but I think there are still some very clear examples of dehumanizing behavior exhibited. The way he talks to Bebe and Wendy when he tries to recruit them, the fact that he’s pimping out girls and eventually women in the first place. The fact that he refers to them as “bitches” the entire time is, while hilarious and, again, indicative of his naiveté, it also shows that while Butters is generally a nice kid, he can be easily led astray when something is presented as “the right way to do it”.
While I think he does end up showing those women some semblance of decency in the end, the entire episode he spends all of his time objectifying the girls around him in order to make money off of their bodies and their labor.
And then, of course, we have the true descent into the pipeline. Being dumped by Charolette, the Wieners Out Movement, basically every part of Butters’ story arc in s20 has him at odds with women and, frankly, being a hateful little shit. But how do we go from being innocently disrespectful to flat out misogynistic? Well, imo, theres prior examples (and the many others I’m sure others could note) were merely symptoms of greater issues brewing under the surface, due in no small part to Butters’ upbringing and experiences.
Okay, so I’m going to go a little outside the realm of what we see in literal canon text, and more into the world of subtext and my personal interpretations of it. Cool? Okay, cool.
So let’s talk about that conversation I mentioned earlier between Linda and Porsche. She starts by attempting to empower the girl to aspire to be more than just a pretty thing for men to ogle, however when Porsche’s response is ditsy Linda response with “Oh, never mind, I think Raisins might be the perfect place for you.” Obviously implying that Porsche is actually too stupid to do anything other than essentially sell her body. While that’s not only a really weird thing to say to a literal child, it also shows the kind of mentality Butters is probably exposed to at home. And that’s coming from his mom, someone who is most likely the most influential female voice in his life.
The same mom who went insane and nearly got him killed, mind you. A really great example for him.
The only other female voice I could see him being influenced by is his grandma, and… well, I don’t think I need to get into why that abusive pos might give him a reason to hold resentment towards women.
I also think it’s really important to point out that one of Butters’ closest friends, and the person we see him spend quite a bit of time with, seems to be Cartman. I don’t think I need to explain not only how influential someone like Cartman could be on someone as impressionable as Butters, but also the myriad of examples of Cartman just being absolutely horrible to women, throughout the entire run of the show really. His blatant disregard for his mom and her authority (heh), his absolutely vile treatment of Wendy at just about every opportunity, and don’t get me started on his relationship with Heidi (more so in s21 than most of s20, of course.)
And I’m glad you mentioned Kenny, because he’s not out of the woods either. We’ve seen that he and Butters at least have some kind of friendship, and while Kenny isn’t as malicious in his treatment of women he still pretty blatantly objectifies them. Yes, his love of boobs is very charming, but at what point does it cross over from cute to creepy?
What I mean by all of this is that while I think Butters could have been a very sweet, sensitive, kind boy that treated women respectfully, the way he’s been raised, and the things his friends have exposed him to, have influenced him to move in a different direction. He’s had new experiences over the run of the show that have shaped his opinions about the world, about his place in it, and his relationship with the opposite sex.
What’s so great about this to me is that it feels very realistic. I know the kid that seemed sweet on the surface but became radicalized by shit his conservative family spouted at him. I know the kid that was bullied so much by his classmates that he started conforming to the ideals of his not-so-great friends in order to fit in, to feel less alone. It adds such an interesting twist to the “good kid” character, that while he can still retain that naiveté, that same trait that once simply made him stumble into wacky situations is now what’s leading him into darker, more malicious territory, because in a lot of ways he still just simply doesn’t know any better.
Anyway, thanks for giving me an excuse to ramble about Butters!! As always, I’d love to hear what other people think of the direction his character is going in these days!
Congrats on getting those 40k words down! And around a full time job too! 💪 Grandma Teri knows how to inspire ✨️
Haha thanks, man! I’ve been working on this particular WIP on and off for so long that it feels kinda weird to have hit that word count with so much of the story left to be told.
You know, I told myself after EWILY that I wouldn’t write another multichap, at least not for a LONG time. I guess it’s been well over a year since I’ve worked on a fic this long, so maybe I was due for a longer project again. Clearly my brain thought so, since this wip could have been much shorter if I had really wanted it to be… but the ideas keep coming!
I hope I can inspire others to keep writing! I know I have days where it’s easier to get words down than others, but the point has never been about meeting the arbitrary goals and deadlines we create. It’s just about getting the story out!
Do you have any silly headcanons about the main 5?
Sure! I can list off a few!
Kyle:
Is mildly allergic to grass. Not bad enough to have a big reaction, but he gets a little congested in the summer when someone has just mowed their lawn, and his skin gets more irritated than most if he sits in grass for too long.
Spends way too much time on Reddit white knighting and explaining in excruciating, condescending detail why, in fact, OP is in the wrong. You will see 69ingchipmunks as an active participant on r/AmITheAsshole and r/AmITheDevil.
Has absolutely punched a hole in a wall at some point in his life. It’s a rite of passage that every Kyle must go through, I don’t make the rules.
Stan:
Is one of those kids that just fucking hates bathing, for a long time. He never gets so bad that he totally reeks, but he’s always a little bit greasy.
Gets annoyed when people point out or make fun of his ‘butt chin’.
For sure keeps his socks on during sex. They’re those white, tube socks with the black line at the top, by the way. And every pair has at least one hole somewhere on them.
Kenny:
Still listens to music on a shitty iPod nano that one of the other boys gave to him after they got their first smartphones, even after he has his own (busted) smartphone, too.
Wears his Mysterion suit under his regular clothes regularly and for YEARS. You know, just in case.
Gets really wasted at a party in college and wakes up with a piercing in his dick. (This actually happened to a guy I knew yes it’s as funny as it sounds).
Cartman:
I’ve mentioned this before, but as a kid he definitely smells like cheese. Like, processed fake cheese. Cheez-Wiz cheese.
Also spends too much time on Reddit, but he’s on there making a million throw away accounts to post outlandish shit just to get a reaction. He finds it incredibly hilarious when Kyle comments on his shit posts. (Sometimes he is asking for genuine advice/validation, but he’d never admit that).
Clyde Frog stays on the bed during sex.
Butters:
Definitely wets the bed well into middle school. His bed stays strapped with the waterproof lining.
Fucking LOVES VeggiTales. Watched it all the time when he was little and will still put it on when he’s older as a nostalgic comfort show.
Gets really wasted, entirely on accident, at the same party as Kenny and wakes up with a single nipple piercing. Kenny’s the one who pierced him. He never takes it out.
Hi Teri! 😁 what did you think of the new episode? 👀
Hello my friend!!
You know, I really enjoyed it! It was exactly the kind of episode I needed... To validate my hatred of Labubus.
I'm going to include more thoughts under the cut, for the people who don't want spoilers if they haven't seen it yet!
Okay, I'm going to break this up into three parts.
1.) Butters. Oh my god Butters. I love a Butters episode, and I especially love a Butters episode that reaffirms what a little PERV he is?! Like, him immediately thinking he's gonna get to see Red's bush sent me to oblivion, and the way they carried that joke through the entire episode felt so stupid (positive). I think we often forget that Butters is quite, uh, sexually minded, and I always appreciate when we get reminders of that little detail of his character.
I also really enjoyed how obviously Red was just using him. Like, everyone in their class just knows Butters is a gullible little dork that will do anything if you (pardon the pun) butter him up enough, so of course she would think to manipulate him into getting that fuck-ass rare Labubu for her (the fact that I knew immediately which one it was smh. Everything I know about Labubu I have learned against my will.) Him immediately assuming they were dating after that single interaction was also incredibly charming, in a way that only Butters can pull off.
2.) Jesus. Can I say how much I love Jesus when he's played as just this super normal guy? I mean, obviously he's still Jesus, but Jesus driving a shit-colored sedan and working as the honest to God (pun also not intended) guidance counselor is very funny to me. I also really appreciate how blasé the other adults were regarding everything happening with the Labubus. That felt painfully true to life, considering there are people that genuinely do think Labubus are demonic or at least associated with heretical shit. What a world we live in.
3.) Satan. Oh man, my brother is going through it. I've been enjoying this storyline for him, and how we've been getting bits and pieces throughout each episode. Satan is easily one of my favorite non-human characters in the show, just a really lovely guy that I would be happy to hang out with, though I'm not sure what that says about me.
The "Trump is fucking Satan" joke hit every goddamn time for me, in fact I think it got funnier each time it was said. I can't wait to see people completely miss the joke and take it at face value. Also, mpreg??? Is wild, but it makes so much sense in this context, and I'm excited to see the antichrist that he and Trump spawn. Maybe it will prompt God to make an appearance again, who knows!
I think overall the way they tied these three character journeys worked nicely. They all had real skin in the game, and the girls summoning Trump, and then Satan, was a really funny moment. Their reactions were so real.
I do hope they comment a little more on the tariffs again, though I also appreciate the way they leaned into the predatory, supply and demand bologna that's been happening with things like Labubus. It really is fucking gross the way these trends get capitalized on to bleed kids and families of their money, when they just want some fugly ass keychain.
I haven't looked at a ton of other reactions, so feel free to let me know what you thought! I'm sure there will be other bits I wished I had touched on after I've posted this haha.
Oh! And before I go, to answer Butters' question: yes, redheads do have red bushes. I would know.
I am absolutely in the mood to read an essay about Kyle's portrayal in fanwork 👀 i could read South Park analysis till the cows come home
Alright alright I’m ready to get into this haha.
A couple of things before I start, everything I’m about to say is just my opinion, yeah? I’m no expert, I just think that the way the fandom treats Kyle in a lot of circumstances is… questionable :)
Oookay, let’s GO!
So believe it or not, I don’t actually read a ton of fanfiction. I don’t really have time these days, and when I do I’m so painfully picky about the way certain characters are portrayed that it’s very hard for me to find fics I really vibe with. That being said, I see a lotta shit on this fine website.
Let’s get the obvious shit out of the way. I do not think Kyle should be the default bottom in ANY ship. If we wanna really get into it, my personal take is that this is a holdover from yaoi/fujoshi culture that is so painfully steeped in heteronormative bullshit of one person needing to be the ‘dominant’ and one needing to be the ‘submissive’ even outside of the context of kink. Essentially, one character has to be the ‘girl’ and one has to be the ‘boy’, even in a homosexual relationship.
I’ve blabbed about this before, but I don’t think I’ve ever talked about why I don’t think that Kyle should be the default ‘submissive’ in his relationships.
First of all, Kyle is just not submissive. At all. Or I should say, he isn’t often. I think the only context where he tends to submit is with his mother, and if you really want to sit here and defend your choice based on him having ‘mommy issues’, I guess you can technically say that.
Personally, I see Kyle as being very headstrong and, honestly kinda intense. While this hasn’t always been super consistent in his personality early on in the show’s run, it’s certainly has been now. I mean, he was willing to shoot at his friends’ moms in The End of Obesity because he believed so strongly in what he was doing, and why he was doing it. Kyle’s stubbornness and unwillingness to waver on his morals and values is a driving force for conflict in the show, like, all the fucking time, whether he’s correct (as in, the creators agree with his stance) or not.
I bring up his personality in the early run because I do think a lot of the issues I have with his characterization now comes more from early fandom portrayals than anything that’s actually currently supported by the source material. As an example, Kyle being the weakest physically of the main four makes a lot of sense in the context of those early seasons, but it doesn’t really work with his current characterization, if I’m being honest.
This isn’t to say I dislike him being sickly, mind you. I actually think that can be really compelling if Kyle has to grapple with the fact that his physical weakness is at odds with his mental strength.
Hoooowever, I think this has to be done in a really specific way, and this sorta brings me to my next point.
Why are we out here victimizing Kyle so damn much? Like, I get it, bad shit happens to him in the show (don’t talk to me about Humancentipad) but why are we just tormenting Kyle for seemingly no reason? Are we in the middle of a dead dove arms race?
I do think this ties back to this idea of Kyle being a default submissive, and I’ve certainly not always been kind to the kid in my own work but damn you guys are fucking mean to him. What did he ever do to you??
I suppose tormenting characters is sort of… par for the course in any fandom, but man I just don’t see the appeal of it being Kyle that’s getting the brunt of the abuse, especially when he ends up being reduced to a helpless, pathetic little thing. Like at that point just pick a different character, I mean Butters is right there you guys.
I’m not going to act like any one ship leans more or less into these tropes either, I think all sides of the fandom are guilty of disregarding a lot of what makes Kyle’s character compelling in the show. I will, however, take a moment to complain about some of the popular ships that Kyle is in.
Kyman: You know how I feel about these two. A stellar dynamic with so much problematic shit bubbling under the surface. Let’s disregard the inherent discomfort around an open anti-Semite and a Jewish person being together because… I willingly ignore that to ship Yentlman in my main works (rip self read). Even without that bit of their relationship, these two are just too goddamn similar. Both stubborn, both going to extreme lengths to prove the other wrong, OR enabling one another to do some pretty shitty things.
I think Post Covid did it best by showing how they BOTH bring out the worst in one another. While I enjoy these two platonically, I don’t personally enjoy romantic ships that are this toxic.
I’ve also expressed before that I think a fic lives and dies on how Cartman is written, so while this post is about Kyle’s depictions in fan works, I do think we have to consider the way the other half of a pair is written as well.
I got some really lovely tags on that one post I reblogged and word vomited all over that brought up how Cartman, supported by canon, is a severely traumatized individual, and how that can support a more sympathetic view of him (I’m not tagging the person in case they don’t want to be involved in discourse like this but I appreciate your insights and you made a very good point, if you are reading this).
This does, however, bring up a whole other host of issues with their dynamic. If we’re romanticizing the idea that Kyle is some kind of moral savior for Cartman then… man, idk. You guys are gonna have to help me on this one, is that common in the ship? Is Kyle playing therapist with Cartman, and that’s how we’re justifying sanitizing him?
Also, say it with me now, there is no way in sand hell that Kyle would let Cartman top him. I know, I’ve read it, and I can see where the idea is coming from but come on. Kyle is too prideful for that shit. Now if y’all start giving me Kyle topping Cartman and making him fucking beg for that hot Jew sploog then MAYBE I’d be able to get behind this ship.
Style: Oh you thought my preferred ship was safe? Haha no ma’am, because Style shippers are the fucking WORST when it comes to feminizing Kyle.
I respect the Style shippers that came before me with their football star Stan and pissbaby twink Kyle, I really do. However it’s time to move on. I made this point in a previous post (that I know you’ve seen my friend, much love for your support on my hot takes) but for those who didn’t see it, I really believe the thing that separates Kyman shippers from Style shippers is that Kyman shippers tend to treat Kyle like an equal to Cartman, while Style shippers really lean on Kyle being weaker than Stan to make their dynamics work.
What’s really funny to me is that what I think makes Style work in its best iterations is when they are truly treated as equals, because they absolutely should be.
Now I may sound like a hypocrite here because I know I play around with power dynamics in my Styles quite a bit, but I think I make it very clear that even when Kyle is technically bottoming, he is not necessarily submitting.
I also can give credit where credit is due, Kyman shippers do not shy away from how much of an asshole Kyle can be sometimes. Style shippers though? Man, I understand wanting to lean more on Kyle's positive traits (he IS a very empathetic, friendly, driven person that always wants to do the right thing) but he can become 'too good' very quickly when you don't balance those things out with his negative traits.
Kyle is pretentious. Kyle thinks he knows best even when he really doesn't. Kyle is quick to anger and sometimes cares TOO much, to the point of getting carried away and making things worse (rip to Canada).
The only negative trait Style shippers are pretty consistently on board with is him being hotheaded, which is fair! But also? To stay consistent with my current branding, that's like seasoning all of your food with just salt and pepper. Like sure, it adds flavor, but we all know the dish could taste so much better if you sprinkle on a little something more.
K2: I am... Utterly indifferent to this ship. Like, I've seen some cute fanart? But I've never partaken and it doesn't really interest me, sorry gang.
Cryle: Another ship I've never really partaken in, but that makes significantly less sense to me. It's giving crack ship, which is fine? But from what I have consumed a lot of people sort of approach them with all the worst aspects of both Kyman and Style. Craig is not as compelling as Cartman as a foil for Kyle, so when people do lean into the evil Craig headcanon that was common in early fandom, it seems they also lean into the pathetic, victim Kyle tropes that are common in Style works.
I'm sorry if y'all love this ship, I'd never really paid it any mind until recently and while I have read works that included them that I thoroughly enjoyed, I don't think I'll ever root for them to be endgame.
And if your favorite Kyle ship isn't here, sorry to say I don't know enough to speak on them (in fact I shouldn't have even brought up K2 for that reason, but I figured someone would probably mention it since it seems pretty popular).
Look, this is a mess and I am certainly not the authority on characterizing any of these goobers. But you asked, and I hope you enjoyed my silly little opinions. This is in no way meant to be constructive, but if you guys want something more organized and constructive breaking down how I characterize Kyle or any of the kids, you know where to ask!
