#brian epstein interview

[suit-boys]

I’m learning things about Brian Epstein tonight. I’d never gotten around to looking into him and he seems like such a nice guy. I feel like he’d be very nice to have a conversation over tea with.

[mrepstein]

Melody Maker - August 12, 1967

The Epstein Interviews     

Part Two                             

By Mike Hennessey

You said in the first interview that the thing you feared most in life was loneliness. Have you ever thought about marriage?

Yes. Very often. I’d like it to happen - if it could happen. Apart from the companionship it represents, I would welcome it because I get very put out trying to run two homes on my own.

Do you think marriage is likely in the immediate future?

No.

Is that because of your attitude or because of a lack of suitable candidates?

I think because of me.

What do you look for in a woman?

Simplicity, understanding and a loveliness that appeals to me.

Have you met no women with these characteristics?

Of course I have - I’ve been introduced to many whom I would have liked to get to know better, but it just hasn’t happened.

Are you happy in the society of women?

Sometimes.

But you are fairly convinced that the prospects of your marrying are remote?

I think the wish is slightly idealistic and unlikely to be fulfilled. But it is one of the biggest disappointments to me because I must be missing out somewhere not having a wife and children. I would love to have children.

Coming from a Jewish family, have you ever encountered any personal anti-Jewish prejudice?

I’ve been very lucky. But I think a lot of anti-Jewish prejudice is occasioned not by people who are anti-semitic but by those who are affected by it. In other words, Jewish people sometimes have a defensive attitude because they expect a hostile reaction.

Funnily enough I was with a man the other evening who commented on the fact that I was staying at a hotel run by Jews. ‘But I’m a Jew,’ I told him. He was very embarrassed and said quickly, ‘Yes, but the owners of that hotel are not very nice Jews.’ Well, they may not have been very nice - I didn’t meet them. But if they were not nice it was not because they were Jews. There are unpleasant Jews, Catholics, Protestants and so on.

I believe you were asked to help the Israeli cause in the recent Middle East crisis and refused. Why?

I refused to help because I’m as sorry for a wounded Arab as I am for a wounded Israeli. People fundamentally are all the same and I can’t discriminate between Israelis and Arabs.

Did your refusal to help upset your Jewish friends?

I think Bernard Delfont and Cyril Shane who were among many who particularly asked me to help, were somewhat surprised at my negative reaction! But I can’t help it. I feel that people should have no greater concern for the suffering of one race than they have for any other. I believe in and want to help, as far as I can, to understand mankind whatever colour, creed, religion or nationality. And I think this sort of philosophy, however broad and general it sounds, is the only basic one the leaders of the world can work from to attain world peace.

Is the Jewish faith important to you?

Yes, naturally it figures necessarily in my thought. There are many beautiful and good things written in the scriptures and prayers, which I believe to be good and true. However, I find it difficult to accept religion of any kind in a ritualistic form. I find myself uneasy and unable to comprehend so much within the precincts of a Jewish house of worship. But, because I’m of Jewish parentage I find myself respectful and tolerant. I love my family dearly.

Have you ever prayed?

Yes, I prayed as a child. I loosely studied Judaism and other religions. At school I found myself interested in Roman Catholicism. I think that belief in life and God that ever prevails is better than ritualistic and religious praying

Is there any justification for the frequent association of Jewishness with meanness?

No, I don’t think so. Everybody is a bit mean. I’m mean because although I know I’ve got enough money, I’ll suddenly put the brake on and think, ‘I can’t carry on like this forever.’

You have got a great deal out of life. What have you put into it?

I have done what I can and will continue to do so. People who criticise me may have a point and may be sincere - but it doesn’t really matter what they say. I know I have done my best. People get too wound up and serious. I’ve been rude to people in my life, too, but one discovers that it is quite unnecessary. During the very, very active period of Beatles management I maintained as much calm and gave them as much of a boost to their morale as I could. I would agree that I was particularly lucky to have found them in the first place - but maybe it was destined to happen. That, to a certain extent, I believe

Do you have strong political views?

I am becoming more and more politically minded. I feel strongly about some issues and the main problem, not only in Vietnam but throughout the world, is that politicians are not single-minded in their beliefs. I think so many politicians allow so many other pressures to bear on them, restricting truthful and honest thought. 

Are you inclined towards the right or to the left in politics?

I suppose I’m left really and I think I always have been.

What social reform would you most like to see?

I would like to see more tolerance all round, more understanding and less ignorance by those who consider themselves the leaders of the country.

Do you think the Rolling Stones’ trial was an example of establishment, intolerance and misunderstanding?

I think it was an appalling mess which should never have reached the stage it did. On the other hand, maybe we will be grateful in the future that they were scapegoats. I really think the Press interest in the Rolling Stones and drugs is in excess of the public interest.

You’ve had an immensely successful career, but has there ever been a period in your life when you were filled with despair?

There have been many instances throughout my successful, semi-successful, and failure periods.

Would you care to talk about them?

No, they are too personal.

Has any period of despair ever been acute enough for you to contemplate suicide?

Yes. But I think I’ve got over that period now.

Outside the Beatles and NEMS Empire, what are your interests?

I have a natural curiosity about everything. And at present I am very keen on Spanish things. Also I’m now very involved with my Sussex home which I bought five months ago.

How much did it cost you?

About £30,000. I moved in with just the hangings and the carpets and now I’m enjoying installing bits and pieces of furniture and pictures

Where do you prefer to spend your off-duty time?

Either in Sussex or New York. I’m greatly attracted to New York and feel great in that environment. It is a beautiful city. Fortunately, I’m also able to work from either place.

What do you think of the current Flower Power scene both here and in America?

Flower power is becoming a tiny bit of a drag. It’s becoming a cliche and a fashionable cult. I’m currently wondering whether the cult is not slightly akin to rock ‘n’ roll, Merseybeat, Swinging London and so on. Basically there’s a lot to be said for the general attitude, and if the move in this direction which is toward love and things could grow throughout the world we might find this planet a better place to be living on. There is certainly nothing wrong with the attitudes expressed by the Flower Children. I think I’ve been a flower child all my life but I hope the mood will progress and not become a commercial businessman’s paradise because then it defeats its purpose. There are some signs of this but the attitude is so good, sincere and lovely that one cannot but help be happy to be in its midst. It’s an international feeling so I cannot differentiate.

[mrepstein]

Melody Maker - August 19, 1967

The Epstein Interviews

Part Three

By Mike Hennessey

I understand that your contract with the Beatles runs out towards the end of this year. Do you have the slightest doubt that they will re-sign with you?

No, I don’t. I don’t think they mind how long I sign them for. A contract doesn’t mean much unless you can work and be happy together. And I am certain that they would not agree to be managed by anyone else. Obviously I wouldn’t (and couldn’t) make them do anything they didn’t want because of any legal rights I hold. Most of the time we think in the same direction anyway. And so we just groove along. In fact the principal value of a contract between us is really for the benefit of the lawyers, accountants and all that scene, because those people always think these things should be ‘proved’ on paper.

When did you first sign them up?

In December, 1961, after hearing them at the Cavern in November.

It is widely believed that you went to see them after receiving repeated requests for their records in the record departments you managed. Is this true?

More or less. At the time I was getting very bored with what I was doing. I’d been selling records in my families’ stores for about five years and had attained just about as much success in that sphere as possible. I’d tried window dressing, selling furniture, soldiering, selling books in Charing Cross Road with varying degrees of success and just about that time I was looking for something challenging and exciting.

You must frequently have been asked if you foresaw the tremendous success of the Beatles when you signed them. May I ask you yet again?

I never had any doubts that they would be huge. But I couldn’t have seen the turn of events. I saw the potential of the Beatles without knowing how it would evolve. The timing was right as well.

If you had not met and signed the Beatles, do you think you would still have become a manager and impresario?

I don’t know. At sixteen I wanted to be a dress designer but it didn’t happen. At 22 I wanted to be an actor so I went to RADA, but I didn’t like it. And then I started selling records and after that I met the Beatles.

How much do you think you have contributed to the success of the Beatles?

Well, they are certainly not where they are today, because of me, if that is what you are suggesting. But our good relationship has been a contributing factor. When people ask why the Beatles have been so tremendously successful they always expect one short answer. But there isn’t one. There are hundreds of contributory factors.

Would the Beatles have been so successful if they had been managed by someone else?

They may have been successful, but I don’t think they would have been as happy. I do know that I have always been straightforward and honest with them and they appreciate this.

Do you take 25 per cent of their earnings?

I certainly did at the beginning when I had more expense in promoting them. But now it works out roughly at a 20% share for all five of us.

I imagine, however, that Paul and John, as composers, have the biggest incomes.

Yes, I imagine that too.

There have been suggestions in the past that you used the Beatles to promote other artists. Is this true?

In spite of everything that may have been said, this is absolutely untrue. I have never used them to promote other artists. I have always been perfectly single - minded about this and I must say, in fairness, that the Beatles have been easy to manage. If they had decided on someone else to manage them I am sure they would maintain the same faith and ideals. Faith and belief has existed mutually between us since the beginning.

Has the phenomenal success of the Beatles caused people to overrate your gifts as a pop Svengali?

I think this used to happen more than it does now. I was simply showered with talent. But I am not looking for it anymore. I have delegated all my responsibilities as agent and I think people have stopped overrating me.

People have referred to the Monkees as the biggest pop music sensation since the Beatles. How do you regard this claim?

I think the Monkees have been a great boost to the music industry but I don’t think they can seriously compare with the Beatles.

Do you think a phenomenon like the Beatles can ever occur again?

I think it unlikely in the same form or magnitude. When people refer to a group as being the new Beatles it doesn’t worry me. It is the same as Bardot. She doesn’t mind that there are 48 girls all being hailed as the new Bardot. But if another Beatles phenomenon does occur, I know that I’ll be watching it rather than handling it. I’ve been through all the phases of management with the Beatles and that is sufficient for me. I’d like to go on with the Beatles and with Cilla, and I’d like to see Gerry happen. Naturally, I am also proud to be associated through NEMS Enterprises with other artists. Especially The Cream, The Bee Gees, The Who, Matt Monro, Donovan and so on. But I obviously could not deal with all NEMS activities personally, so I’ve given these responsibilities to the people who I think are right for the job.

As well as successes, you’ve had your share of failures in artist management. How do you feel about them?

I feel very sorry for the artists who didn’t make it under my management.

Do you think in these cases that your judgement was at fault or was it the judgement of the public?

I think mostly, in the past, I was at fault. Then there are other factors of young people growing up and not maturing and progressing as one would have liked.

Have the Beatles changed very much since you first met them?

Yes, a lot.

A frequent criticism of the Beatles these days is that they have lost touch with the public who made them. What do you think of this?

This is quite untrue. I don’t think it is a good idea for them to talk to the Press every minute. On the other hand they have been quite open about a lot of things. Paul talked quite freely to the Press recently. But there has to be somewhere that you stop. There are 100,000 reporters who want to interview them. When we launched the Sergeant Pepper LP we considered for a long time the best way to do it. Finally we decided to have a party at my pad. It was difficult to decide who to invite - we wanted people who were close to us and people who would spread the word. I suppose we had about 15 journalists there. It proved a good idea because the story went round the world.

But will the Beatles be making any more concert appearances?

Not in the usual form. But it is difficult to predict future developments. For instance I couldn’t have said twelve months ago that the Beatles were going to appear to the whole world to tell everybody ‘All You Need Is Love.’ As you know the Beatles are working towards a TV programme for distribution throughout the world. They are also keen to develop ideas for a film. ‘Sgt Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band’ had been a fantastic success. To date it has sold 521,043 copies in Britain, nearly two million in America and huge sales figures have been received from many other countries. I think they would like to make a sort of Sgt Pepper film. They have proved that they can do the sound part and now they feel they can tackle the visual part as well. They would like the film to come from within our orbit and there are plenty of good people in NEMS who can help them with this. They want complete freedom to make it and create it in their own way.

Is it true that the Beatles are getting more and more outside help on their records and are less personally involved?

No, they’re not. Quite the reverse. They are more involved in the making of their records than they have ever been. I can not emphasise the truth of that statement too much. Of course, George Martin and others play their part. But the Beatles are still the creators. They go to many of the mixing sessions and have maintained control over everything. As far as I am concerned, I believe in them more than ever.

[mrepstein]

Melody Maker - August 5, 1967

The Epstein Interviews

Recently Beatles’ manager Brian Epstein talked at length to Melody Maker writer MIKE HENNESSEY. Because of the wide range of subjects outside music covered in these penetrating interviews, the Melody Maker may seem a curious vehicle for them. Yet while Brian Epstein, the manager of the Beatles, the most phenomenally successful artists in the history of popular entertainment, is well known throughout the world, far less is known about Brian Epstein the man. This remarkable series of interviews gives the very first in-depth portrait of the mind behind the man behind the Beatles.

Your recent admission that you have taken LSD has been attacked by some people as irresponsible in that it may influence young people to try the drug. What is your reaction to this?

Let me tell you the background to this. Paul rang me one Saturday to tell me that he had admitted to the Press that he had taken LSD. At that time I was very worried. I don’t think I slept that night and I thought about it all the following day. Then I came up to London on the Monday knowing that I was going to be asked to comment on Paul’s admission. I finally decided to admit that I had taken LSD as well. There were several reasons for this. One was certainly to make things easier for Paul. People don’t particularly enjoy being lone wolves; and I didn’t feel like being dishonest and covering up, especially as I believe that an awful lot of good has come from hallucinatory drugs. People tend to think of the San Francisco hippies as dirty and unhappy, but, in fact, they are doing rather better things than the people who lead our nation. Coupled with my admission was a warning that neither Paul nor I advocated the general use of LSD by all and sundry. We issued a statement to this effect. So my intention was, to a certain extent, to warn as well as to own up. There is also another factor in this. We wanted to help the cause of the Rolling Stones. It is particularly unfortunate that they should have been scapegoats.

What made you take LSD in the first place?

I’d heard a lot of good about it and I had sufficient understanding of it to know what I was doing. I had also read a lot about it.

Did you take it before the Beatles did?

No. But we are a closely knit circle and we influence each other. All five of us come from Liverpool and lived within a few hundred yards of each other. In fact, the circle is even wider because Neil, Mal, Alistair Taylor and Peter Brown are also from the same background.

How many times have you taken LSD?

About five times in the last 14 months.

Will you take it again?

I don’t know.

Did you “turn on” in the first place because you felt the need for drugs?

No, it was an experiment.

Have you ever smoked marijuana?

Yes, from time to time. I really believe that pot, marijuana or hash - whatever you like to call it - is less harmful, without question, than, say, alcohol. I think there is a terrific misunderstanding about marijuana and its effects. So many people have said it must be bad that this verdict is accepted without question and, of course, there is the malicious association between drugs and pop music. I think society’s whole attitude to soft drugs must eventually change. There is a parallel with homosexuality when that was a cardinal sin. Isn’t it silly that we have had to wait all this time for the reforming legislation to go through?

Do you, then, support the provisions of the new bill which legalises homosexual acts between consenting adults in private?

Of course! In fact, the majority of people do, I’m certain. You hear of very few prosecutions for homosexual offences these days.

To return to the question of soft drugs, do you not think there is a danger that the men who, supply marijuana, and who are also very often pushers of hard drugs like heroin and cocaine, will try to turn their customers on to the more expensive and more addictive hard drugs?

The laws governing soft drugs principally create the danger. But the danger exists already with alcoholics who turn on to hard drugs. I think, however, that the danger is remote in the present context. None of the people I know who smoke pot are interested in harder drugs. They are certainly aware of the dangers involved.

Did you have no apprehension when you took LSD and smoked marijuana that you might become addicted?

I did have some apprehension, but I took that risk. It was a calculated risk. But then I am in no way addicted to alcohol and seldom smoke cigarettes.

You know that LSD could have extremely damaging and sometimes fatal effects?

It is true that LSD affects different people in different ways. Some people are supposed to have bad experiences. There was a terrible programme on television the other night when a panel of so-called experts talked a lot of nonsense about the drug. People who have had a bad experience are really few and far between - certainly not as numerous as the people who have died from overdoses of alcohol. And in any case we don’t know the details of these cases. They may have mixed alcohol with LSD. I certainly didn’t feel I wanted to fly or jump off a ledge.

What did you feel?

The feeling is too impressive and personal to convey in words. I know that I have sometimes had too much to drink and felt awful and unpleasant the morning after. But I have never had a hangover from smoking pot or taking LSD. I think LSD helped me to know myself better and I think it helped me to become less bad-tempered.

Is bad-temperedness one of your failings?

Yes.

What are the others?

Well, I reproach myself most often for being bad-tempered and for being mean from time to time. When I’m rude or mean to somebody it takes me days to get over it.

Which failings do you dislike most in other people?

I dislike ignorance, pettiness and prejudice. On the other hand, egomaniacs don’t put me off. I think I, myself, have overcome a very large ego, so I’m very forgiving and tolerant of egomaniacs. There are a lot of them about and some of them are very brilliant and clever. I think this is the one failing one must be tolerant of. I also dislike dictatorship and I’ve never tried to dictate to my artists, although I’m aware that I command quite a bit of respect. The manager-artist relationship is one of mutual dependence and one of the most perfect relationships there has ever been, in my experience, is that which exists between the Beatles and myself. If I’d been domineering or dictatorial they would never had accepted me and it would have all gone wrong. You have to allow for freedom. You can easily be cut down to size in certain situations and you realise that humility is very important. When you waffle a great deal and it has no effect you realise that you have to modify your attitude.

Have the Beatles helped cut you down to size?

Yes, they influenced me - and I think I influenced them. They are, after all, the Beatles. I also think that LSD has probably lessened my ego.

You once told me in an interview some years ago that you were anxious to find some creative outlet. Do you still feel frustrated over this?

Whatever may have happened in the intervening time, I have learned to live with the idea that I’m the Beatles manager. I’m a creative person to a degree, but the biggest thing that has ever happened to me is the Beatles. I have overcome the feelings of frustration, but the Beatles always make an effort to involve me in what they are doing. And they do involve me. They wanted me to sit in on the TV thing, but I wanted to watch it come over on TV so I wasn’t there. And I’m still very nervous of cameras.

What is the thing you fear most in life?

Loneliness. I hope I’ll never be lonely. Although, actually, one inflicts loneliness on oneself to a certain extent.

[mrepstein]

The Observer - May 17 1964

THE BEATLE BACKER

BRIAN EPSTEIN talks to KENNETH HARRIS

HARRIS: How much have you made out of the Beatles, Mr Epstein?

EPSTEIN: Well, I honestly couldn't tell you at the moment.

I wouldn't mind telling you a bit - after all, I have to tell my accountants and the income tax collector. But at the moment I couldn't. You see, I managed them at quite a loss in the first year.

I remember putting them on four successive Mondays at Widnes, and the most I grossed was £18. And it was a long time before I was making enough to pay them what they ought to have and show a profit myself. Its only in the last accounting period, not the current one, that I show a real profit.

If you want an idea of the scale of the thing, at the moment the Beatles can on occasion make as much as £8000 a week. Of course, they can't work every week - not because I couldn't get contracts for them, but because I mustn't overwork them. My percentage at the moment is 25.

HARRIS: Do you think that might be a bit excessive?

EPSTEIN: No, I don't think it is. If you see it as it really is. When I contract people, I do it on the basis of guaranteeing them a certain return over a certain period. It is the guarantee that attracts them. Having got them on my books I am responsible for giving them that return. I'm backing my judgement of their potentialities, coupled with my capacity - such as it is - of promoting and publicising them.

I may be wrong, after all - they may not catch on, they may flop, in which case I have to pay them the rate just as if they had been a great success, until the period contracted for has expired.

Or, as with the Beatles, they may start off and continue at a loss - while I have to pay them as though they were a success from the start - and then start raking it in much later on.

You see, the stakes are high. There is a great deal of money to be made out of managing artists who become 'Top of the Pops' - not only out of the sale of records, but also out of the radio, television and film shows which go with it. But you have to stake a lot to get it. 

I recently signed a contract with a group of artists which means that they do pretty well from the word Go, but I make money only if they if they get to the very top.

At the moment, though you might be showing a considerable profit on one group which has really got going, and made its name, after a period which wasn't anything like so good, you might be bringing on other groups starting from nothing.

I have a large office. I have more than 30 people working in it. Their salaries come out of how much I earn, not out of what the Beatles earn. And I want to introduce a lot of talented young people to the public you haven't heard of yet.

What I've done, and what I'm doing, is to spot people who would record discs that I think from my experience of selling records would sell in a big way. But you need something more than is required to make - or sell - one recording. You need somebody who you can rely on to go on and make several good records.

More than that, you need people who have the personal qualities and colorful character to stand up to - and exploit - the various forms of publicity that are necessary to keep their records before the public. 

You have to be a judge of what kind of people teenagers want to hear singing attractive music, and out of those you need to be able to select the ones who are capable of having a kind of continuous folklore built up about them, so that the public wants to go on hearing about them, as well as hearing from them.

HARRIS: How long do you think the Beatles will go on?

EPSTEIN: Indefinitely. They are bound to. There's so much talent there. Each one is a remarkable man. Look at John Lennon, for instance. If he ceased to be a Beatle tomorrow, you'd go on hearing about him. Even if he gave up singing. He's got creative ability as a writer. 

You know the Beatles write about 90 per cent of their own material. They can't read music, but they do all their own arrangements. I wouldn't predict that they will go on being as successful as they are now as a group.

But they'll go on. Paul McCartney will go on composing, grow and deepen as a composer. And he may well become a gifted actor. George Harrison is a splendid musician, and he has the talent to develop the business side of it. Ringo is a marvellous actor. Marvellous.

HARRIS: What have the Beatles got that other people haven't?

EPSTEIN: Ah, that's not easy to say. I know what they've got - at least I believe I know what they've got - but I don't know enough about words to be sure I could tell you what it is. Well, to begin with, they've got this astonishing naturalness, this freedom from unnaturalness. In private they are unspoiled, unaffected, sincere - themselves all the time, and to everybody, regardless.

In public this comes over in their performance - freshness, lack of professionalism - well, not that, because they are very professional, really. What I mean is that they don't produce any of the tricks or gimmicks or mannerisms or veneer that you associate with professionalism.

Secondly, they are technically extremely competent. They sing very well, they play very well. Then they have original genius - they have this special sense of rhythm: their lyrics are not only well written - they say what teenagers say and want to hear about.

But over and above all that, they communicate with their public far better than any of their contemporaries. They make a contact that is quicker and deeper than other performers. 

The communication they make is very pure. Nothing gets in the way. So many artists have to, or do, act to get their effects, behave like somebody they are not, put on an act. But the Beatles just get up and - are!

All the best art is pure, isn't it? It really comes down to clichés, like honesty and simplicity in art. The Beatles come over direct and strong because they are simple and honest human beings.

HARRIS: How much of their success is due to the fact that they have something that this particular generation of teenagers wants?

EPSTEIN: I'm no theorist, and I can't give you a sociological explanation of anything. Quite frankly, all I really know of teenagers is what they like and don't like - I can't tell you why they like and don't like it. I can tell you, I mean, but its only my own idea.

The performers who go down best with youngsters are people who are young themselves - behave young even if they're not - have the easy-goingness, non-stuffiness, non-pompousness and friendliness that young people have, the opposite qualities from the ones they associate with authority in general and parents in particular.

You see, the Beatles behave themselves very well with their 'elders and betters,' but they don't defer to them. They aren't frightened of them, and they don't behave as if they are.

I think teenagers like the Beatles and their music because it's so gay, and easy, and natural, and moves them so quickly and simply. If teenagers like something, they can afford to buy it these days.

Another thing about the Beatles is that they don't seem to come from any particular class background. You don't need to have been to any particular school, or have any particular salary, to enjoy the Beatles. Anybody can get on their wavelength.

HARRIS: If you hadn't met the Beatles, what would you be doing now?

EPSTEIN: I don't know. I might have been still in the business, selling records. I wasn't really very happy there. I was a bit bored, really. It was a good thing for me when the Beatles came along.

HARRIS: Why were you bored with the business? You said you liked music, and you enjoyed selling records, and that you were successful at it.....

EPSTEIN: Yes, that's true. But I did it because, well..... I only went into it because there it was, the family business, and I was the elder son - you know how it is.

Furniture shops is our business around Liverpool. I was selling gramophone records - we have a big gramophone department. We might be one of the biggest sellers of gramophone records in the country.

My mother comes from a Sheffield family called Hyman - my grandfather set up a very successful furniture manufacturing business there. My father's family were also in furniture, but they were retailers. Naturally, my parents wanted me to go into the family business - as the elder son. I'm 29.

When I met the Beatles I was in charge of our gramophone records section. That's how I heard of them.

I liked selling records, and I liked talking to the people who bought them, and I found I was getting quite a good idea of what records would sell and what would not. I found that a lot of kids were asking about 'The Beatles.'

It struck me that there was more than local patriotism in it. I thought I'd like to hear these boys. So I went to the place where they were singing. As soon as I heard them I thought they had something. I felt they were great.

And I liked them, liked them very much indeed. I liked them even more off the stage than on.

HARRIS: Had you wanted to have a life outside the family business?

EPSTEIN: That's a long story. When I left school I wanted to be a dress designer. I love things that look well - which I think look well, I mean; you may not - and I love the idea of creating and designing them. I believe in taste. I believe in my own taste, and I wanted to embody it in designs.

I don't know whether I'd have been a success - I think I would. But that's what I wanted to do. My father wouldn't hear of it. Of course, I was only a kid, and I couldn't really explain myself to him.

And he thought he was doing it all for my own good, I am sure. So I was apprenticed to the Times Furnishing Company in Liverpool.

I didn't like it much. I didn't like being at home, being dependent. I didn't like the atmosphere of middle-class commercialism.

Nothing wrong with it, I just didn't like it. But I didn't know quite why I didn't like it. When I was 21 I asked my father if I could go to London to the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art for a year. He was very nice about it, and said yes. He'd pay, too.

I didn't enjoy it at all. I didn't fit in - I felt a bit like a fish out of water - I didn't do anything that could be made to look like a success. I felt lonely in London.

So I went back to Liverpool and the furniture business, with my tail between my legs, I suppose. I'd had my chance to break out. Now I had to accept the result and - fit in.

HARRIS: Why did you feel lonely in London?

EPSTEIN: I was shy. I am shy. I like people very much - that's what living is about, as far as I am concerned, being with people, and doing things for people, liking and being liked - but it's one thing to want company and to want the feeling of being wanted and another to get it.

And I didn't feel that I'd made any kind of impact on anybody at R.A.D.A., had any kind of success, so my parents' kindness had been wasted, and my initiative hadn't come off. There was a sense of let-down, frustration, and only oneself to blame.

HARRIS: Were you shy at school? Did you mix at school?

EPSTEIN: No, my school days were rather sad days.

HARRIS: Where did you go to school? Boarding school?

EPSTEIN: Yes.

HARRIS: Where?

EPSTEIN: I went to several.

HARRIS: Why?

EPSTEIN: Because I wasn't very happy, so my parents kept on trying other places. I ended up quite happily, so I can't complain.

HARRIS: Why were you unhappy?

EPSTEIN: Well .... I was interested in a lot of things most of the others weren't interested in. I liked games - but I was very keen on music and art. The last school I went to was a much more modern-minded place than the others.

HARRIS: Were you unhappy because you were a Jew?

EPSTEIN: Yes. There was a certain amount of that.

HARRIS: Anti-Semitism?

EPSTEIN: Well, that makes it sound much more serious than it was. You know how things can be at a school. But it did make me unhappy, and I suppose it had the effect of making me withdraw into myself, and making me want to be good at things that gave me pleasure as opposed to being socially acceptable.

HARRIS: Do you have these tensions and feelings of frustration now?

EPSTEIN: No. The past two years have been wonderful.

HARRIS: So the Beatles solved your problem for you?

EPSTEIN: Yes. It's a funny thing, and I've never thought about it that way before. But it's quite true. Everything about the Beatles was right for me. Their kind of attitude to life, the attitude that comes out in their music and their rhythm and their lyrics, and their humor, and their own personal way of behaving - it was all just what I wanted. 

They represented the direct unselfconscious, good-natured, uninhibited human relationships which I hadn't found and had wanted and felt deprived of.

And my own sense of inferiority evaporated with the Beatles because I knew I could help them, and that they wanted me to help them, and trusted me to help them.

Then the success I registered in social and money terms was important. It didn't matter much to me in myself, but it mattered to other people.

My parents were impressed that I had shown good judgement and initiative, so I felt I hadn't let them down. So my tensions and frustrations all went. I've got plenty of problems. But I'm not pulled down by them any more.

HARRIS: Does it irk you when some people say they think you aren't a very good agent?

EPSTEIN: Only if it applies that I think I'm a good agent. I'm an amateur as an agent. I don't pretend to be a good one. I don't think of myself as an agent. I don't want to go on being an agent, anyway.

HARRIS: What do you want to do?

EPSTEIN: I want two things. First, I want to go on being in touch with my artists. I don't want to manipulate money. 

I want to be able to influence and help personally the people that work for me - I want to help them realise themselves, give the best they can. I believe I can help them, and I want to be near enough to help them.

At the moment I've got eight groups of artists on my books, and I can keep close to them, go across to the States with them for a few television appearances, see that everything is all right - everything. Some of the big agents have 150 artists on their books. The problem there is keeping in touch.

If you've got the gift, you can delegate, but you can't delegate and keep in personal touch. It's impossible. That's why I shan't devote myself to being an agent. And that's the second answer to your question. I want to direct, present and produce straight plays. That would give me the kind of work and the degree of personal contact with artists which is ideal.

I might not be any good at it, but I want to try it. I may lose a lot of money. But I'm not interested in money. I don't need much to meet my needs. As long as the money is coming in, I just don't care about whether I could be making more, whether anybody is getting more out of me than he should.

I get the best deal I can for my artists, of course. That's a different matter. I've got a responsibility towards them to do that.

But so far as I'm concerned personally, I'm not that interested. Some agents are very hot on contracts. I'm not. I never even saw a film contract till the Beatles made a film and had to sign one.

HARRIS: Do you have any sense of mission about the theatre?

EPSTEIN: No. I want to put on the great dramatists, and I would like to try to discover new ones. But I don't feel that the public ought to have good plays. I think the public wants good plays, so I don't see why they shouldn't have them, and it will give me a great sense of satisfaction to direct, present and produce those plays. But there's no 'ought,' so far as I'm concerned.

HARRIS: You don't have any moral feeling about culture?

EPSTEIN: No. Culture is the entertainment of people with good taste, that is to say, people who enjoy beauty and are honest enough not to pretend they are enjoying themselves when they are not. It needn't be classical music. It can be good clowning. Arthur Askey in my view is a great artist. Very witty, too. When I met him for the first time the other day, he said: 'Ah, how do you do, Mr. Epstein. I used to know the other chiseller.'

HARRIS: You aren't worried at the thought that you and your Beatles might be having a bad effect on teenagers?

EPSTEIN: What bad effect? Some people talk of teenager hysteria about the Beatles. I don't see it.

If they break things up, that's bad. Quite different. But what's wrong in a good scream? Their fathers and their grandfathers roar their heads off at football matches on Saturday afternoons. 

I saw a girl sitting in the front row the other night. She had her hands to her head and she was screaming - you know, 'Aieeee' -you say screaming, but they're not shouting  'Help!' or 'Murder!'

In the middle of it, her handbag dropped off her lap. She stopped screaming, bent down, picked it up, had a quick inspection to make sure nothing had fallen out or got broken, put it back safely between her thigh and the edge of the seat so it wouldn't fall again, put her hands to her head, and started up again 'Aieeeee!'

That's not hysteria, that's self expression.

HARRIS: A last question then, Mr. Epstein. You say you haven't a sense of mission, though you have a personal ambition, and you say you aren't interested in making money. Are you going to use your money to do anything which hasn't been done already?

EPSTEIN: Yes, I am. At the moment the public is being given too much in the way of entertainment which is in the bill not because it is the best available or because the public wants it, but for reasons of show-business politics. I want to try to use my capital to put on what I think is the best of its kind.

You see, Mr. Harris, even when you're only 29 life is short, you get older every day, and if you are interested in doing things for and with people there just isn't time to hang about looking important. You want to get things done.