In case you hadn't noticed us talking about this before, we have a Twitter account! (Click here to check us out and give us a follow!) To go along with that account, we have brought on @coffee-obsessed-writer, aka Jen, aka @rambleon_writer, to run things over there. Jen knows WAY more about Twitter and tweeting and interacting than any of us other admins, since she has run successful fan accounts on Twitter in the past. With her help, we hope to expand our community on both platforms!
A rundown of everything that's happening is below the cut!
Some of our goals include:
Attracting more ship writers, both Destiel AND Wincest among others, to the Pond (since we're mostly made up of reader insert writers, at the moment)
Support even more writers wherever they may be
Become a source for readers on Twitter to find SPN fanfiction
Inspire more writers to write in different ways with new challenges
To those ends, we're trying to find and follow as many SPN fic writers as we can find, and RT their fic tweets when they announce new chapters and such. Hopefully, this will help us bring in new writers, as well as supply fics for new readers! If you're on Twitter, tag us in your fic announcement tweets and we'll RT them!
We're also starting something called #TweetFicsTues! Every week, Jen will post some kind of a prompt and the challenge will be to write a story in 280 characters. It encourages us as writers to find all of the fat in a story that we can possibly cut while still painting a compelling picture. (Just remember to use the hashtag and tag the Pond in a reply or QT so we can RT your submission!) This will be posted only on Twitter, not cross-posted here on Tumblr, though anyone who wants to post their submission on Tumblr is definitely welcome to do that! (And tag us so we can reblog it here, too!)
Some FAQ (Well, we asked them, so figured you would, too!):
Can a Twitter person join the Pond if they don't have a Tumblr blog?
Yes!! We're hoping we can expand our reach and support as many writers as possible, so there will be no requirement to have a Tumblr blog moving forward!
Will all Twitter content be cross-posted to Tumblr and vice versa?
No. There will be similar content, sometimes, like reblogs/RTs from accounts that have a presence on both platforms, but not everything will be cross-posted. To see absolutely everything, you will have to follow on both platforms!
Will there be Twitter-specific activities?
Yes! We're starting with #TweetFicsTues! (As said above, if you want to cross-post your submissions to Tumblr, tag us here, and we'll reblog your submissions from here, as well.)
Will Tumblr-only folks lose any of the activities we've enjoying doing over the past seven years?
Nope! We're still doing Angel Fish Awards, and the New Member Spotlight, and Pond Diving, and everything else. That's why we brought on Jen to help out with Twitter, because we're already pretty busy over here on Tumblr, and we don't want to stop providing the supportive and creative community we've developed here!
That's everything we got to talk about today, and a little more, about this expansion. If you have any questions, or suggestions about what you'd like to see us do in the future (either on Tumblr or on Twitter), send us an ASK or send a message to any of the admins: @mrswhozeewhatsis, @fictionalabyss, @mariekoukie6661, and @coffee-obsessed-writer! We want to hear from you!
We had a great time chatting with Taylor, @impalaimagining! Thank you so much for joining us and sharing your thoughts and experience!
Our topic this month was Writing RPF, and we talked about the legal, moral, and emotional aspects of writing about real people. A rundown of the chat, as well as general Pond news, is below the cut!
We started off the chat with the legal side of things, most of which was covered back when we talked about Monetizing Fan Works back in May. Here are the related links that were brought up:
Wikipedia: Legal issues with fan fiction (The section dealing with RPF is near the bottom under Right of Publicity.) Boiled down, RPF has to deal with a celebrity's Right of Publicity. Famous people have the right to control the commercial use of their name, image, and likeness, sometimes even their broader identity or persona. Most states’ laws on this only apply to uses for commercial gain. So, don't try to get paid directly for RPF, and you're safe.
From NPR: We Stan: Real Person Fan Fiction Comes To Life. This is a fascinating discussion about RPF, the legalities, and how it’s been changing in recent years. This argues that basically since “fiction” is right there in the name, RPF is inherently more legal than regular fan fiction based off of characters. No one is trying to say that the real people involved are actually doing these things, it’s just fiction.
Goodreads Genre: Fan Fiction - Real Person Fiction. When I was researching, this link came up, and I clicked it, not knowing what to expect. Finding that Fan fiction, much less RPF is on Goodreads was surprising to me. (I thought Goodreads was only about books that could be purchased and didn’t touch “unpublished” works, but I guess not?) What I found most interesting was exactly how many of the titles listed on that page are J2-related. There are more J2-related titles than all of the others COMBINED. As a fandom, we rock!
The discussion started with most folks saying they hadn’t considered the legalities of fan fiction, or RPF in particular, when they began writing. Their first concern was just getting the story out of their head and onto the paper. Also, since no one was getting paid for it and it’s so popular, no one questioned the legalities. Also, since it’s fiction, there’s no defamation of character.
@mrswhozeewhatsis (Michelle): Most people know that I generally don’t read RPF, unless it’s an AU. Way way way back, when I first started reading fan fiction, I used to read the occasional RPF. Honestly, before SPN, I never really liked an actor enough to want to know more about them. (I've been burned by some jerk actors in the past.) One of the first RPFs I ever read was from Jared's POV, and it contained a scene where he was on stage at a con, and detailed his thoughts. I forget what the inciting incident was, but suddenly he was thinking, "Great, now they're all thinking about how big my dick is," and it made him spiral. Something about that stuck with me, to the point that I cringe every time I see Jared on stage and anything remotely sexual comes up. That's pretty much what stopped me from reading RPF. I have no problem thinking about how big Sam's dick is, but I can't ponder too much about Jared's dick, or I can't look him in the eye when I see him at cons!!!
Taylor: I definitely think there is a very fine line to be walked when you write RPF, and I generally don't cross into the area of writing from an actor's POV.
Q: Is that how you keep it separate so you don’t stare into their faces at a con during a photo op and think about the smut you wrote about them?
Taylor: It can be hard to keep it separate sometimes but it's actually very easy in the moment of a split second photo op. They move so quickly, I don't genuinely think I have ever had the time to consider the things I've written about them while I was talking to and hugging them!
Q: Anyone else who doesn’t read/write RPF, do you think that the whole not being able to look them in the eye is an internal thing for anyone in your life, or just celebs?
@manawhaat (Mana): For example, I have A. FUCKING. LOT. of sex dreams. With tons of people, celebs and people I know in my real life... and I don't want to say that it's jaded me as far as thinking sexual thoughts about people, but in a way it kind of has. I don't have that moral dilemma of not being able to look Jared in the eye after thinking about his dick.
Taylor: I completely agree. I think writing it has made me kind of impervious to it bleeding into my daily life. I see Jared and my heart goes ohmygodwelovehim first and in person, then later when he's not around is when the wowowowbutwhatabouthisdick comes in.
Michelle: I don’t think I could write about anyone in a smutty way. Just characters.
Q: I wanted to talk about 'characterization' of rpf. Do other rpf writers out there think of the people as characters and treat them that way, or do you humanize them? Idk if that question makes sense but it's along the same lines of keeping them separate.
@fogsrollingin (Alex): I cast them in other stories when it's rpf. I always write rpf AUs with only a couple exceptions. We know their onscreen mannerisms, so making them astronauts terraforming a new planet with evil aliens on it is like "oh easy".
Taylor: Characterization is huge for me. If someone writes an actor outside of the way they portray themselves, it's impossible for me to read. While we don't know these people personally, we know how they act outwardly and in the public eye, and that's enough to get a good idea of the kind of person they would be.
Michelle: I have no trouble reading AUs, because it's just another character who happens to look like and have the name of one of my favorite actors. In AUs, they're characters. If they are actors on a show called Supernatural, then it's too humanizing for me.
Taylor: See, Michelle, my mind can't separate it to that degree. If I'm reading about someone named Jared who looks like our Jared? It's Jared. AUs give me a lot of trouble, to be honest. Both writing and reading.
Alex: I feel like it's no different than if Jared did a scifi movie during his summer break from spn & it's so low budget they just kept his real name for his character name.
Q: Do you feel differently reading ship RPF than reader insert RPF?
Michelle: Most of the RPF stories I read are ships, but I do read some reader inserts, too. It’s not an intentional choice either way.
Alex: I don't feel differently about it, rly. I know I prefer reading ships over reader insert but that's just my personal jam.
Mana: I have a hard time reading ship rpf mainly because I like the versions of my ships that I've built in my head, so when someone deviates from that it is a little turn off for me. Like, your version of Cockles is not the same as my version, which is totally fine, you do you, but it isn't gonna tickle me the same way ya know. so when I get into like non-mainstream ships it's extra difficult to find writers who represent them in the 'right' ways.
Taylor: I feel that way about pretty much everything I read, and I think that has a lot to do with the whole characterization piece of it. I know that my idea of and the way I portray Jared or Jensen is probably a million times different than the way other people, including my readers, think of them. I try really hard to make sure the way the actors come across is "right".
Mana: I think the one big piece of characterization is kind of using the way they have presented themselves as a moral compass. Obviously they don't present their whole selves so there's always wiggle room and areas where you are free to project your ideas of them into the fic, but that's also the trickiest area and where so many people drop the ball.
Taylor: YES. So, so many people take that wiggle room and take it leaps and bounds beyond what is public (fandom) knowledge.
Q: How do you feel about RPFs that support certain theories about the wives being beards and such?
Mana: I try to not write anything that would feel as if I'm slandering anyone, etc. I wouldn't want to write a Jensen x reader fic where Danneel cheats on him and that's how they get together. If I mention it at all I just say that they've peacefully and amicably parted ways. If I don't mention it then they simply don't exist in the timeline. But never anything negative about anyone, especially the wives.
@girl-with-a-fandom-fettish (Kaisha): I don't write smut (only read) so I have a very different interpretation on a lot of the things being discussed. I tend to stick with non-AU, sister/daughter!reader insert RPF fics because I don't feel creative enough branch out beyond that. I feel the same as Mana, and I actually won't read fics that are based on the premise that someone cheated for the storyline to work.
Alex: I'm okay if ppl deviate far into fantasy realms tho. As long as it's not too support a real life conspiracy theory about the actors, if ppl wanna write it & others like it, all the more power to them. I mean as long as you're like "I killed the wives during the zombie apocalypse in my fic but I love them in real life please don't kill me" I'm like "cool".
Taylor: I avoid bashing fics or beard fics. Admittedly I have one where Jensen and Danneel never got married, but they still had a daughter together and Danneel hid the kid from him until her 5th birthday. That doesn't feel like a bash/slander fic to me because I'm not painting anyone as a bad person - things just played out differently.
Q: The person who suggested this topic mentioned “how to write your first RPF.” Any suggestions?
Michelle: Have Mana finish it for you! (The only one I’ve ever written, she had to finish for me!)
Alex: My first rpf was a ballerina!Jared & yogi!Misha romcom. It was so goofy!
Taylor: I don't know if I can even answer that question. It literally just poured out of me when I started. I took the tiny little idea I had in my head (my daydream, as it was previously and so aptly named), and put it into words and it ended up being a 10 part series.
Mana: How to write your first rpf: READ RPF FROM A LOT OF DIFFERENT WRITERS. find what works for you and for the people you're writing about. do a couple of trial runs with shorter fics. you have room to play, but try not to stray too far from what they've presented themselves as in real life.
Kaisha: For me, when I wrote my first RPF (which was also my first fic), I was in a mental place where I was watching a lot of con videos and reading a lot of sister/daughter fics. It was more "I need an outlet for how I am feeling right now and I don't have anyone to talk to"...so I talked to the image of the boys I had made in my head from what I saw of them online.
Q: Does character shipping affect the RPFs you read? Like, if your OTP is Destiel, do you mainly only read Cockles?
Kaisha: I will read almost anything that's related to one of the Js, either RPF or SPN. But I don't have strong ship feels one way or another that changes what I read/write for RPF.
Taylor: I don't know if character ships have any kind of effect on RPF ships. Because there are a lot more people involved in cons than we see on the show, and cons are my primary source of RPF inspiration. Like, we see Henry, what, twice in the show? But Gil McKinney is a whole other story. He's all over the convention circuit (or at least he used to be) and also all over fandom twitter. It just feels easier for me to write RPF because I see these actors in my real life, interacting with other real people. I have interacted with them, which makes things feel a lot more real than writing about two hot fictional dudes from my TV screen.
Alex: I'm definitely up for Sam/Dean as much as I'm up for J2. Oddly tho it's Mishalecki at real life con panels that's gotten me totally happy to write/read Mishalecki.
Q: (From Taylor) The piece of RPF I struggle with the most is bringing events from the actors' real lives into my stories. Writing about Jensen and the brewery, about their kids and stories they tell about them at cons, that's where my already grey area turns even more grey.
Kaisha: I am right there with you Taylor! My fic started as mostly the reader and JJ interacting and then I remember the twins existed, too. And with my new fic I am trying to figure out if the San Jac and FBBC will work in or not.
Mana: I'm interested in this, because I don't seem to have that issue or gray area. It just doesn't exist for me and I'd like to hear more about it from you guys.
Taylor: It's so hard haha. I have something coming up that deals with Jared being arrested and of course I didn't post it before that whole event went down so now it looks like I'm taking that part of his life and twisting it for my personal fiction needs. Which feels kinda (adult word for "not good").
Kaisha: For me the gray area thing is because I want to write a believable story. A believable story has realistic details and if I am ignoring or overlooking things that my audience knows to be true, I feel it takes them out of the story.
Mana: So it's a case of omit it entirely or commit to it entirely? I ask in regards to like FBBC and the kids. Do you feel differently about incorporating those aspects into your fics? would you be more comfortable writing about fbbc than you would the kids? Or does that gray area cover the same on both?
Kaisha: The same thing goes for when I beta read something. A detail that I don't remember or agree with will take me out of the story and send me on a research rabbit trail to know if the author is correct with what they said. I want to stay in the story as much as possible and I want that for my readers too. That's probably a good way to differentiate it. If I state in the A/N that J1 only has 1 kid, then I don't have to consider what year the story is occurring in. But if I tell you it's non-AU, well then everything that is happening in our universe should be happening in my story (otherwise, it would be AU, even to the slightest degree). The kids vs. FBBC thing I think could be very personal on which someone feels more comfortable with. I say that because I know ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING about alcohol. Kids on the other hand I get.
Taylor: For me it's the same. Just, actual concrete aspects of Jensen's life are harder for me to write about. Because then - again, just for me - that feels like writing from their point of view, which is something I try to avoid.
Q: Do any of you read/write RPF outside of SPN?
Taylor: SPN is my only fandom.
Michelle: I tried to read fics from other fandoms, and just couldn’t get into it. I might be getting sucked into The Witcher fandom, though. Haven’t found any Geralt fics that really align with my image of him, though.
Alex: There are CW network RPF AUs I read.
Taylor: I feel like, as SPN fans, we have a wonderful privilege and incredible pool of writers to choose from when we want to read. I don't know, because like I said SPN is my only fandom, if any other fandom has this level of talent or dedication.
Q: Have you ever read an RPF fic that changed the way you viewed an actor? Or given you a sense of gained insight into their lives?
Michelle: That's actually why I don't read “canon-compliant” RPF, actually. Because then I might think that idea is real, and won't see that it's not, even when proven wrong. Like, maybe Jared actually loves it when we think about how big his dick is? But I can't stop thinking that it embarrasses him and makes him uncomfortable because I read it in that one fic.
Kaisha: @crashdevlin has a Jensen x reader series that also heavily features Tom Hiddleston. My view of Tom has forever been changed because of her story!
Michelle: My brain is very malleable. Sometimes, I'm so open-minded, my brain falls right out. I have to be careful what I let influence me.
Kaisha: It wasn't something that I intended to happen. Crash just wrote a very compelling character and I think my opinion would have been altered no matter who it was that she used as the face.
Taylor: I've never read anything that has changed the way I view the actors. I've certainly read things that have given me new ideas about the things they enjoy (bitey and/or rough smut), but nothing that's changed the way they appear in my mind. I think the biggest part of all of this is just remembering that all of this is 100% FICTION and should never be taken as reality in any way, shape, or form.
To close out the chat, Mana requested fic recs! Here are the recs that were mentioned:
Michelle: If you're into serial killer AUs, There's a J2 AU in my AO3 bookmarks that's genius. Adoration. The other RPF bookmark I have is called Beholder. Jared runs an animal shelter, and Jensen is a homeless man with a TBI who gets dumped at the shelter one night.
Alex: My favorite rpf fic is Tails by keep_waking_up. Werefox!Jared & kitsune!Jensen law enforcement murder mystery AU.
Taylor: One of my favorites to read is by @thecleverdame: Modern Technology. (Jared x reader)
This is unfinished but it's quickly becoming one of my favorite Jensen-things I've ever written, AND IT'S AN AU!!! Rockabye.
Also, there’s You Saved Me (Jared x Reader).
And have a J2 x Reader for funsies! Something is Happening
Kaisha: This is my favorite RPF. Underneath verse (series) - J2 - Jensen is the undercover FBI agent sent to take out Jared, the boss of Chicago.
#Self-promo, but I am pretty proud of this one, too: Nanny, Sister, Daughter...Family (Jenneel with sorta daughter!reader)
Mana: Here’s the Cockles x Reader fic that Michelle and I wrote: Rumor Has It
And, of course, (Jenneel x Reader) Fools In Love.
Feel free to reblog with your favorite RPF fics!!
Also, the February LiveChat info is still TBD. Feel free to send in your topic ideas and suggest guest speakers!!
General Pond Updates and Reminders
What we’ve got cooking up next: Not much, at the moment, since everyone is busy, so we’re just trying to keep up with the day-to-day at the moment! Our to do list is still long, though, and will not be neglected forever! Next up is organizing the tagging system on the blog to make it easier for readers to find the stories they’re interesting in and for writers to find the help they’re looking for!
Reminders:
Angel Fish Award nominations are accepted all month long! No need to wait to tell us how much you liked a fellow Fish’s work! IF YOU HAVE SENT IN A NOMINATION, BUT HAVE NOT RECEIVED A PRIVATE MESSAGE CONFIRMING WE RECEIVED IT, WE DIDN’T GET IT. Be sure to use Submit instead of Ask!
Don’t forget to submit your stories to be posted to the blog! When your stories are on the blog, then they are easier to nominate for Angel Fish Awards!
Say hi to December’s New Members and January’s New Members! (If we missed someone, let us know!)
Check the Pond CALENDAR to see when Big Fish will be in the Skype chat room/discord general channel and other Pond and SPN events are happening! Know of something that’s not on the calendar, send us an ask or submission with the deets info details! The calendar offers a lot of features, such as showing you when things are in your own timezone! Since we’re an international group, that’s a definite plus!!
We’re getting lots of requests for more Big Fish, lately, but so far, only one applicant! If you know someone you think would be a good Big Fish, tell them to apply!!
May 2020 Pond LiveChat Recap - User Friendly Tumblr Pt 2
@fictionalabyss (Mel) and @girl-with-a-fandom-fettish (Kay) yet again did a great job teaching us the magical ways of Tumblr! Thank you, girls, for helping out and sharing your wisdom!!
This was a continuation of last month’s chat, which you can read all about HERE. We also talked a little bit about this back in July 2019, and you can read all about that chat HERE. A rundown of this month’s chat is below the cut!
Keep Reading function via the app
We started off talking about the Keep Reading function, and how it works, and doesn’t work on the app. Back in July 2019, if you were using the app, you could add the text [ [ MORE ] ] (without the spaces) to a line, and it would create a Keep Reading cut in your post for you. We’ve heard recently that it wasn’t working, so we did some testing. This is what happened:
As viewed via the app on the blog:
As viewed via the app when looking at the desktop:
As viewed via desktop on the blog:
Long story short, It only works if you view the post on desktop. Mel noted that if she went onto desktop and edited the post from there, then the cut would work everywhere, but that defeats the purpose of posting using the app.
TD;DR - [ [ MORE ] ] no longer works effectively.
Keeping your formatting when copying from Google Docs into Tumblr
@flamencodiva (Vanessa) told us all about a workaround that she learned from @winchest09. Anyone who was tried to copy and paste from Google Docs to Tumblr knows that you lose all of your formatting, including any italics. @mrswhozeewhatsis has not had a problem copying and pasting from Microsoft Word (as part of the Office 365 Suite) into Tumblr, but Kay has, so she needs to use this workaround. Basically, the trick is to post to AO3, first, and the copy and paste from there. Here’s the step-by-step per Vanessa:
1) make a new chapter on AO3, 2) set it to rich text, 3) paste your fick, 4) got to tumblr and click on pencil to add text, 5) change setting to html, 6) go back to ao3 click on html, 7) copy and paste the html format of your fic and paste it to tumblr, 8) change the setting back to rich text and your format is the way you want it from google docs.
Submitting your fics to the Pond to be posted on the blog
Via the app:
Submitting via the app is a pain, but it is possible.
[Side note: Posts submitted to the Pond via the app can not be edited by the admin. We don’t edit your posts often, but occasionally we will add or change tags, or try to make your post look more appealing. If you submit via the app, we can’t do that.]
Kay was gracious enough to go through thr process and make screenshots for us, explaining what was happening along the way.
First, click on the envelope at the top of the screen:
Nect, click “Submit Your Fics”:
Then you’ll see this screen:
The various options for the type of submission show up at the bottom just like when you compose a post in the app for your own blog. I would add that my “asks” seem to get eaten more often when my phone auto-corrects something. So, one post I did not use auto-correct (and that took way too many tries, honestly) and one post did use auto-correct (and I surprisingly had success).
All the tags available are already applied when submitting through the app (at least on my phone) so you would have to delete those that don’t apply, which is opposite of how you do it when submitting on desktop.
To do this, tap on the #tags (you can see them starting to list in the middle of all the white or you can tap the # in the bottom right corner) and you will get this big list of all the tags available when submitting.
Tap on the one that does NOT apply, and you will get this tiny little x.
Tap the x to remove that tag. Repeat for all the tags that do not apply. If you do not tap the x, it will go back to the darker blue color of a tag that will be applied to your submission.
Caution: if you remove a tag you wanted by accident, you will have to type it back in. My experience with this was my app generating popular tags related to what I was typing first, not tags that were previously there, so please read carefully to get the correct tags.
To change the type of post to link instead of text: click on the link icon along the bottom (there's the Aa for a text post, links, GIF, a camera, etc). However, I copy/pasted a link into the body on a Aa post and it still seemed to work.
A long time ago, THIS ANSWER was posted on the Pond blog about making your submitted post “prettier” and more attractive to readers. This was made based on using desktop (not the app), and just copying and pasting from one tab to another, like this:
On desktop, in Chrome, this works very well, for most people, most of the time. (Mel had some issues doing it for a couple of days, and then it magically started working for no apparent reason.) The gif will transfer over, along with the gif credit, too. This way, the submission to the Pond looks exactly like your original post, and will thus attract more readers.
In the app, though, the copy function doesn’t like to go through an image, and it seemed to be hit-or-miss if a gif copied and pasted would load properly. Basically, it’s a LOT of work to submit via the app, and it is not recommended. You can, but it’s a lot of work.
Why should I make my submissions “pretty” when just posting a link works just fine?
When you are submitting your story to the Pond to be posted on the blog, you’re doing it to attract readers who might otherwise not see your story. You want to sell your story on our blog the same way you sell it on your own blog. That means including all of the elements of a header that are suggested IN THIS POST (Suggested Format for Fics). If you don’t add this information, you could end up with a post that looks like this on the blog:
Readers might not even clock that as a story to be read! Some readers won’t even look at a story that doesn’t list a word count, warnings, or if there’s a pairing. Simply copying and pasting your header into the submission box gives potential readers everything they need to know. Also, here is a good list we came up with a while back of Warning Tags for Fics.
I worked really hard to craft this “secret” (but possibly triggering) ending so I don’t want to spoil it in the warnings; any suggestions?
In your header, let your readers know that there is possibly triggering material in the story, direct them to your tags at the bottom of the post, and then use the “#tw:” format to list the spoilery triggers in your story. This way, people who have few or no triggers can read without being spoiled, and those with triggers they need to avoid can make sure they’re reading safely.
I’m bad at writing summaries. Do I really need one?
Yes. And don’t wimp out and say, “I’m bad at summaries.” That will turn readers off. Think of a summary like a movie trailer. Would you go see a movie is the trailer was just a guy saying, “It’s a good movie, I swear, but I suck at making trailers, so just go see it, yeah?” If a reader is at all unsure about reading your story, your summary can make their decision. Your summary doesn’t need to spoil the story, but just give the reader some idea of what they’re getting into. Set the table, as it were, before the meal. Is it canon-compliant, or an AU? When is it set? Who’s involved in the story? Bring your readers to the ball park before you start the game.
Should I use a specific tag for my writing? Why or why not?
After some discussion, we determined that you should if you don’t have a masterlist set up, yet, or if you don’t keep your masterlist updated. As long as you have a masterlist and keep it up-to-date, then the extra tag isn’t necessary.
That’s it for this month! Don’t forget to submit your stories and your Angel Fish nominations! Want to know what’s happening in the Pond? Check the Pond Calendar to see what’s coming up! And, as always, if you have questions or suggestions, let us know! You can send us an ask, or send a private message to @manawhaat (Mana) or @mrswhozeewhatsis (Michelle) anytime!
June 2020 Pond LiveChat Recap - A Male’s Experience of Sex and Fan Fiction Part 1
@manawhaat (Mana) and @superfanficnatural (Mert) led a lively discussion about what it’s like to have a penis and how we can all improve our writing of the male experience! Shortly after Mert first joined, we asked him if he’d be open to answering frank and personal questions about what it’s like to have a penis, since he was our only (known) member to have one. He was enthusiastic to share his experiences and we are grateful he accepted our invitation! In the time we had, we didn’t come close to answering all of the questions that folks wanted to ask, so we will be continuing this discussion in a future live chat event! (If you have questions you would like to see posed, please either send us an ask or send an IM to one of our admins!) Because the most popular questions were specific to the sexual experience and how it is described in fan fiction, we moved the chat to the softcore-nsfw channel in the discord server. If you are a minor, you might want to check with your parents before reading this, as it is a frank and graphic discussion about sex. A rundown of the chat is below the cut!
Q: Mert, can you tell us a little about yourself and how you got involved with fanfic as a dude?
A: Welp not much to me, just an 18 year old penis-owning male that has been reading fanfic for almost three years. I first found out about fanfic from a friend that suggested it to me and ever since I first started reading, I've been obsessed! I didn't start writing until around early April this year, for I was too nervous, but ended up saying to myself, "You know what? There are no male reader fics on here so I'LL write them." Poof, my blog was born!
Q: In joining the fandom and Tumblr what did you see/feel as far as the fans being mostly female?
A: I'd have to say that I wasn't too surprised, but was a bit underwhelmed. While many female-presenting people seem to be attracted to the actors, first, and the story/content of the show second, the few male fans of the show seem to be the opposite. Although I love the show and all kinds of fans, it would be nice to find some other male-presenting gay fans to gossip with about how attractive the actors are. lol
Q: Have you been in any other fandoms that have had more guys present?
A: To be honest, no. Every fandom that I’ve been in was mostly comprised of female-presenting people.
Q: What’s it like being in a space that’s dominated by so many women?
A: I think that it’s a bit intimidating. I don’t share the exact same experiences as female-presenting people, so it makes bonding a bit harder, if that makes sense?
Q: What kinds of things do you think women in fandom could do to help make men - regardless of sexual preference, already in fandom - feel more welcome? We here in the Pond like to be welcoming to fans of all types of people in all fandom spaces, not just in the Pond. How can we make our space less intimidating?
A: In my experience, it depends on the man in question. Straight men are less likely to want to talk about how attractive the actors are, and more likely to be interested in the mechanics of the show. Gay men are more open to frank discussions about both the show and the actors’ appeal. Basically, just be aware of your audience and how invested in your conversation they seem to be, like you would be with anyone.
Q: Can you describe the sensations behind having a penis, and how it feels during oral sex?
A: Oral sex feels like a warm, heated blanket being wrapped around the penis, depending on how the giver hollows their cheeks or not, Usually, the penis isn’t very sensitive during oral sex, which is why porn is really fake. If the giver uses their tongue, then the stimulation around the tip of the head is what causes pleasure. The head is really the only sensitive part of the penis.
Q: So, emphasis on licking and sucking on the head is key, and deep throating is extra?
A: Playing with the balls, fondling them, or sucking on them is VERY pleasurable. Deep throating is hot, but mostly because of how the back of the throat constricts around the head of the penis. Like I said, playing with the head is the best way to tease. In fact, if it’s a male with a beard doing the giving, rubbing their stubble across the head is EXTREMELY pleasurable.
Q: So, just sucking on the tip alone, like a popsicle or lollipop, would give a man the most pleasure?
A: It is very pleasurable, but not quite enough to bring a man to orgasm. Men jerk from the base when masturbating because of the backwards and forwards motion. Think of it like a gear. The back and forth powers the gear, making the machine begin to work, and eventually leading to orgasm.
Q: The arousal and pleasure need to be built up, then. Sucking and stroking together with some fondling on the side if deep throating isn’t an option?
A: Yes. If you can’t take it to the base, just use your hand for the remaining amount and go back and forth at the same pace as your mouth. Fondling isn’t completely necessary, though it is very pleasurable.
Q: What is one thing you wish more women knew/writers would write about in terms of the male experience?
A: As a reader, it would be nice to have more writers writing about the male experience at all. The majority of writers and readers are women, though, so it makes sense that the majority of stories would be focused on the female experience, so I can’t complain.
For those who are interested in writing more from the male’s point of view, adding more description about how everything feels would be good. For example, when describing the female orgasm and arousal, there are all kinds of metaphors, like the string snapping and fires burning. Those things are representations of the orgasm and that same build up applies to men, too. Then when it finally releases, the feeling of an orgasm cuts off their breathing, even for just a second. We feel it in our toes, and can almost feel the semen transition from the testicles to the penis. Some men like to continue jerking off or thrusting through their orgasm until it becomes too sensitive and some men prefer to stop. Generally, our hips will thrust forward with each shot, but that’s not all the time or every male.
Think of it like breathing. Each shot of ejaculate is so powerful to the man that it's like during those shots, we only have the time to take mini gasps because we are so out of breath (once more, not all the time, and not every man). Pre-ejaculate does not always leak out of our tip; it's basically the equivalence of women getting wet. If we are hard long enough and it is straining, then pre-ejaculate will eventually begin to leak out. Yes, it is also possible for more pre-ejaculate to leak out DURING intercourse, though it is hardly noticeable due to the heavy amounts of wetness everywhere and they all mingle together and yeah.
Onto the prostate. It is possible for men to orgasm without stimulation to their penis. The stimulation of our prostate for a long period of time can lead to an orgasm, regardless of if they are jerking or not, also kind of like women who can orgasm without clit stimulation (though difficult).
Q: Do any of the stories you’ve read that women have written come close to the male experience of an orgasm?
A: I haven’t been able to read much M/M fan fiction, but most of them have been written by women, so they aren’t able to go deep into how it feels. All they can describe are the actions taken to get to the climax and what that looks like, which is understandable. But what “pleasure” are they feeling exactly when they orgasm? That is shown in a lot of female experiences and showing it in the man’s experience is one of the focuses I want to address and give answers to with this chat.
Q: Can you describe it for us, then? What are the sensations that happen in orgasm? Is it a whole body shiver? Is it the penis twitching slightly as the orgasm hits?
A: The whole body can convulse just like a woman can, though it’s more of a strong tingle than a whole body rock, depending on how strong the orgasm is. Also, the penis does twitch and swell, and usually when men “flex” their penis, the head grows in size slightly.
Q: How does that tingle spread, and how fast does it spread?
A: Think of the orgasm like the ocean. Wave after wave. When a man is about to orgasm, they know, much like for women. Every stroke gets them closer and they get to a point where they know how many more strokes it will take.
Q: Does the pleasure then spread from the penis out to the rest of the body?
A: It’s actually kind of the opposite. In the beginning, there is a tingle through the whole body. It’s like the nerves in the whole body pulse in the direction of the penis. Then, when it gets released, it’s like a bomb. The nerves in the penis fire off and it slowly spreads back throughout the body.
Q: For some women, it starts in the vagina and radiates outward, but it sounds like for men, it starts outward and radiates to the penis.
A: Yes! And when ejaculation starts, it all reverses back out into the body. (This information is not exactly the same for every single man on earth, but probably pertains to a large percentage. All men are different as all women are different. This is my experience though.)
Q: Does that mean that outside stimulation, like playing with nipples, scratching thighs, etc, would help a man orgasm more quickly as that outside stimulation radiates pleasure toward the penis?
A: Yes. This is why in porn, one person might suck on the neck of the other to add to the influx of pleasure and make the climax feel better. One reason why men love getting their backs scratched up is because that slight pain morphs into pleasure and it helps get closer to orgasm, much like women when their nipples are pinched.
Q: Can we follow up on the breathing thing? Are you physically incapable of breathing during each wave of climax? Or is it more like a winded feeling? Or is it more like the entire brain/body is so overloaded with pleasure that it’s just not on the top of the priority list?
A: It depends on the strength of the orgasm. We can breathe, it’s just not a focus.
Q: Can you pass out?
A: No, but you can be exhausted afterwards and fall asleep.
Q: Do you get blurred vision or anything like that?
A: No blurred vision, but it’s very common to squeeze your eyes shut.
Q: Do sensations change based on the strength of the orgasm?
A: They do.
Q: Is grunting really a thing that happens, or is that just in porn?
A: Yes, grunting can happen. Either it’s so hard that breathing gets cut off, or it’s so pleasurable that you groan or grunt out in pleasure.
Q: Do you come harder if you haven’t done it for a couple of days?
A: Much like some women, the longer we go without orgasm, the easier it is to climax (at least in my case).
This is where we had to stop due to time constraints, so we will be picking this topic back up in a future chat! If you have questions you would like to see posed in a future chat about this topic, you can either send an ask to the Pond, or an IM to any of the admins!
That’s it for this month! Don’t forget to submit your stories and your Angel Fish nominations! Want to know what’s happening in the Pond? Check the Pond Calendar to see what’s coming up! And, as always, if you have questions or suggestions, let us know! You can send us an ask, or send a private message to @manawhaat (Mana) or @mrswhozeewhatsis (Michelle) anytime!
We had a great time chatting with @tricia-16, today! Thank you so much for joining us and giving us your thoughts!
We had a great time today chatting about keeping characters true to what we’re used to seeing on screen, even when we’re writing them into an AU. How do you decide what traits are sacred and what you can or should change when you take our beloved boys out of the hunting life and into other worlds? A rundown of the chat, as well as general Pond new, is below the cut!
For those who don’t know her, Tricia is not (yet - I’m gonna work on her!) a member of the Pond, but she is a popular Destiel writer on AO3, and a force for good in the fandom on Twitter. Most of her stories are AUs, with a couple of canon stories, so she has experience in both types. Her current WIP is called Light Me Up, and it’s based around Dean and Cas discovering that Lisa had a child after a fateful night with the two of them. Lisa has recently passed, and gave joint custody of her son, Liam, to Dean and Cas together. The prequel, Why’s It Feel So Good? is simply hot, Hot, HOT, and shouldn’t be skipped! She updates every Monday, which helps to fight off the Garfield in all of us and make Mondays something to look forward to.
We started off talking about side characters.
Q: (@loudenswainfangirl (Michelle H.) How do you create that AU version when you don't have a lot of canon content to draw from? For instance, Donna. Canon gives us some in sight to her character but there is also a lot we don’t know. I've been working on a fic with Donna as the main and I'm having a difficult time putting my own interpretation on her. Inner thoughts, hang ups, struggles, that sort of thing.
Tricia: Michelle, I have no idea how you do that with the side characters who don't have a lot to go on. I think that's why in my stories they tend to focus more completely on Cas/Dean than the surrounding characters. I think in a lot of cases they end up more like an original character with a familiar character's face, in my head. If you're talking AU, I'd create almost an entire new character with Donna's personality. Write down how she grew up, her likes/dislikes, her personality flaws and strengths. You'll get an idea of who she is, which should help influence her dialogue and motivations behind why she acts how she does within the story.
Q: Have you gotten any backlash for side characters not sounding right or being OOC?
Tricia: I don't think many people read my stories for the side characters, so I haven't gotten a ton of feedback on them. I know people didn't like Charlie's big mouth in Start of Something Good, but I think she'd be super forward like that to try to help Dean so it didn't bother me.
Q: Which do you find easier, AU or canon?
Tricia: AU, without a doubt. And it's for the simple reason that I think there's more wiggle room when it comes to keeping them in character that way. While a lot of the big character traits will remain the same, there's wiggle room to change some things up depending on the world I create. A big one is family life. If Dean grew up with both parents in a loving home, I find it easy to believe he wouldn't be quite as emotionally unavailable as he is on the show, for example.
@katehuntington (Kate): I get that, I can relate to that. I find both comfortable, but with AU’s I feel like I need to establish where I wanna go first, and then think how Dean (for instance) would get there and how it would affect him. AUs also create situation that wouldn’t be possible in canon, like certain side characters interacting with each other. That’s what I like about it.
Michelle H.: That's what I love about AU, Tricia. Creating a different background opens up so many possibilities. An AU is, essentially, your world. I feel more people will be more critical and have higher expectations with canon based fic.
Q: What do you do when you're afraid you've maybe taken a character too far outside of their usual character?
Kate: Say their lines out loud if it’s dialogue, checking if I can hear that character say that. And it depends on the background. I’m honestly not worried that often. Guess with two or three betas on board who would tell me if it’s OOC, you build that kind of confidence. So what was said earlier: if Sam or Dean for instance grew up in a stable environment, they would respond differently than they would canon.
@mrswhozeewhatsis (Mrs. Michelle): Betas help a LOT. Talking it out with other fans is HUGE, sometimes. (If you’re looking for a beta, check out this list of betas here!)
Kate: Going over scenarios with people who know your story, your style, etc, is really helpful!
Michelle H: You think so? Because that's what I want to do and have so far but I'm afraid of backlash.
Mrs. Michelle: Never be afraid of backlash. If someone else doesn't like your interpretation, they don't have to read it. And if they're rude enough to comment, they're just RUDE.
Michelle H: Good point. I guess because I write rare pairs I have so little exposure and I'm afraid to chase away those I do have.
Tricia: If you can explain WHY your character is the way that she is (even within the story or outside of it in comments, etc) you shouldn't face much backlash. They might not like the choices you make, but that's on them, not you.
Q: What are the easiest and hardest parts of staying true to SPN characters when writing AUs for you?
Tricia: Easiest is the big things. Dean loves pie, drives his car, loves rock music. Sam's a nerd, Cas doesn't know much about pop culture/doesn't get a lot of jokes. Those are the things I feel should stay the same in any universe. (Imagine a world where Dean doesn't like his car? WHO IS HE?) Hardest is getting Dean to talk about his feelings. We know him to be closed off and anti-emotion, so to make him open up enough to fall in love while still remaining in character is always a struggle. That's why so many of my fics are from Dean's POV. Without access to his inner thoughts, he'd come across completely different than he does with them.
Kate: Easiest parts for me is taking there personality traits, analyse where they come from and if you can, use those traits in favor of your story. Hardest part for me is when you wanna make certain changes for the sake of the AU, but feel like it’s not in character. That’s the hiccup I experience most. For instance (for the people who know Ride With Me) Dean on the show can’t really play guitar and his singing isn’t great either. For my country boy/cowboy AU, I added that, even though it’s not of significant importance to the story line. It just felt good. I go on gut feeling a lot personally.
Q: What changes to their character might you first consider when you're coming up with a new story line? Are there any traits that you immediately considering changing without question, and conversely, are there any traits that are sacred? For example, you've already discussed how Dean is different when he's had a stable family. Is that a common starting point for you, or does it depend on the story?
Tricia: This might seem like an obvious answer, but Dean and Cas's sexuality is always a big one. Do they know they're attracted to men when they meet? Are they purely attracted to men, bi, do they think they're straight? Dean "getting around" sexually is almost always part of my stories. I can't imagine a prude-ish version of Dean.
Kate: For me Dean’s self worth (or the lack of it) and his kindness for the people who need it, are traits that I won’t ever let go of.
Q: Besides pie and Baby, are there any other traits of Dean and Cas that you feel are sacred and shouldn't be touched?
Tricia: Dean's fierce protectiveness of Sam is the first thing that comes to mind. I think I tend to write Cas as seeing Dean as almost... perfect. He refuses to give up on him, forgives him even when he shouldn't, and that's all based on who he is on the show, too.
Q: Has there ever been a story line or story element that you've loved, but ultimately decided to ditch because it was too OOC, even for an AU?
Tricia: When I wrote Molting Expectations, there's a scene where Cas was basically going into "angel heat" and I actually wrote Dean giving into temptation and something physical happening between them when Cas clearly didn't know what he was asking for. And once I wrote it, I read it over, and immediately went, "Nope. Dean's stronger than that." And I ditched the whole scene.
Q: On those occasions where you wrote in canon, you obviously have to be more strict about changing things. How do you decide what's sacred and what can be shifted? Basically, what’s your barometer for “I’ve gone too far this time”?
Tricia: I think for me, it comes down to my interpretation of the characters. Some die hard fans would tell you that Dean is 100% straight and nothing can convince them otherwise. I believe there are moments of episodes that imply he's not 100% straight, so I feel justified in making that more explicit in my stories.
Dean admitting he likes chick flicks makes me think maybe he's a bit softer inside than he wants to present a lot of the time, so I can almost exploit that about him in canon fic, for example.
But more than anything, I think, it's the dialogue that I struggle with in canon fic, and after reading it back, it's a gut feeling. There's a lot of tweaking individual words, changing the way I make my characters talk to the way Dean/Cas actually talk. I do that by looking at transcripts of episodes.
That's actually how I wrote Donna's dialogue in Light Me Up, even though it isn't canon, because I haven't written her character very much. I looked at the words she repeats in all of the episodes she's in to get a sense for how she spoke.
I wrote a big love confession from Dean during Don't, and then scrapped it all because I couldn't see him actually saying that out loud. (And it frustrated me because it was SO GOOD and all things Dean was thinking, but I knew in my gut they were words he'd never say out loud.)
Mrs. Michelle: I've noticed that the characters in this show we love really don't talk much. Any time I've written a long paragraph of one of TFW talking, I've always cut it down to a third of it. They rarely make speeches.
@girl-with-a-fandom-fettish (Kaisha): Those are Winchesters for you, as few words as possible!
Tricia: They also use each other's names 100 times more than regular people in regular conversation! LOL
Kate: I go on gut when it comes to taking a character too far. And also remember that it’s your story. If you believe that Dean or Sam would respond a certain way under these circumstances, then write it.
Q: Dean and smoking: In character or not? And why or why not?
Tricia: Smoking seems self-destructive enough (with the benefit of soothing nerves, or so I've heard) that I could see Dean smoking. The only reason I can think of why in canon it wouldn't be in character is because of the cost. Especially when the Winchesters didn't have the bunker, would Dean always have the money to buy a pack of smokes? I would guess probably not.
Michelle H: I would think he'd rather use the funds for whiskey.
Mrs. Michelle: I could see Dean stealing smokes. Like, back in the olden days when they weren’t kept locked up. Of course, the first time he got winded, and therefore injured by a monster, he might decide to quit.
To wrap up, we all kind of agreed that when we’re questioning if a character is OOC or not, we try to imagine the character in canon doing or saying what we’ve written and we go with our gut. If we’re still unsure, we ask friends and beta readers for help. As always, Betas make everything betta!!
Next month we’re going to talk about structuring long plots with @jhoomwrites on 12/7/19 at 5PM Eastern time! Mark your calendars!
General Pond Updates and Reminders
What we’ve got cooking up next: Not much, at the moment, since everyone is busy, so we’re just trying to keep up with the day-to-day at the moment! Our to do list is still long, though, and will not be neglected forever! Next up is organizing the tagging system on the blog to make it easier for readers to find the stories they’re interesting in and for writers to find the help they’re looking for!
Reminders:
Angel Fish Award nominations are accepted all month long! No need to wait to tell us how much you liked a fellow Fish’s work! IF YOU HAVE SENT IN A NOMINATION, BUT HAVE NOT RECEIVED A PRIVATE MESSAGE CONFIRMING WE RECEIVED IT, WE DIDN’T GET IT. Be sure to use Submit instead of Ask!
Don’t forget to submit your stories to be posted to the blog! When your stories are on the blog, then they are easier to nominate for Angel Fish Awards!
Say hi to October’s New Members! (If we missed someone, let us know!)
Check the Pond CALENDAR to see when Big Fish will be in the Skype chat room/discord general channel and other Pond and SPN events are happening! Know of something that’s not on the calendar, send us an ask or submission with the deets info details! The calendar offers a lot of features, such as showing you when things are in your own timezone! Since we’re an international group, that’s a definite plus!!
We’re looking for a guest speaker for January to talk about RPF! If you know of an RPF writer that you’d like to hear from, let us know!!
We had a great time chatting with @evansrogerskitten tonight! Thank you so much for joining us and sharing your wisdom!
Today, we got together and talked about writing smut! We discussed the legalities around sharing smut on the internet, vocabulary choices, created a spreadsheet of terms we can all share and use, and encouraged each other to not be afraid to just write. A rundown of the chat, as well as general Pond news, is below the cut. Due to the nature of the chat, there may be some parts of this recap that might be considered NSFW.
To start us off, @mrswhozeewhatsiswrites shared some research into the legalities of posting erotica on the internet as it relates to minors. (We are not legal experts. This information was obtained through Google searches. If anyone can provide links to sources that contradict these, we will add them to this post to ensure the most correct information is provided here.)
Michelle: To try and keep it short and sweet, from everything I read, if a minor reads smut online, it's not the writer's, poster's, or web site's responsibility to keep it from them. It is the parent's, or the school's/library's responsibility. (Basically, whoever is providing the internet connection to the minor is responsible for filtering out content that might be harmful to that minor, not the parties creating or disseminating that content online.) Schools and libraries and other institutions that get government funds are usually required to have some sort of filter in place to prevent minors from accessing porn and erotica.
What makes this so difficult to research is that written erotica is not mentioned very often in obscenity laws. Most laws focus on images or videos, not the written word.
No matter what it is, though, to be prosecuted under obscenity laws, the material must first be ruled to be obscene. Legally, there is a difference between obscenity and erotica. Obscenity is generally illegal, and erotica is protected speech. There are many different sets of rules and guidelines that have been used to determine if something is considered obscene or not. The most widely used current set of guidelines is the Miller test. From my research, most (if not all) erotic fan fiction would not be considered obscene because of its ‘literary, artistic, political, or scientific value’.
Some interesting links in relation to this subject that go into detail:
Wikipedia - US Obscenity Law - About halfway down, there is a section on non image-based obscenity cases in the US. The first part of this section, which deals with the written word, is very enlightening about the differences between obscenity and erotica. Further down is a section about criticism of the laws which shows some of the gaps in the law where free speech lives. Continuing on, the section about censorship in schools and libraries explains the part CIPA (Children’s Internet Protection Act) plays in protecting minors from material that could be considered harmful to them.
Online Art Rights - Sexual Content - This site details the many attempts at limiting indecent material on the internet through the years. (Scroll down and click on the plus signs in the black bars to expand each section.) In each case cited, the court ruled that to ban all objectionable material would interfere with free speech because it would reduce all content to a level appropriate for children. They also concluded that since less restrictive means exist, such as user-controlled filters and the like, those tools can be used without reducing all discourse on the internet. The section on Child Pornography at the bottom might be of interest to anyone who writes Weecest smut, though.
The only possible exception that I think would affect the SPN fandom would be those who write Weecest smut. Child pornography seems to be the exception to every rule that protects free speech. Where every other depiction of a sex act might have a ‘but’ that makes it erotica (and therefore legal) instead of obscenity, child pornography in any medium is considered obscenity. Anything that even just looks like child porn is considered child porn, even if no children were a part of the making of it. This includes cartoons and CGI and adults made up to look like kids. If it’s advertised as children in a sexual situation, it’s child porn. So, I imagine it could extend to written erotica IF someone were to decide to push it.
Now, that’s a huge if. Someone would have to read it, object to it, and insist on prosecution for it. I think if that were going to happen, given 15 years of SPN fan fiction, it would have happened by now. But I would still keep my Weecest smut-free, or implied, or at least over the age of consent (which varies, so 18 is just easiest to use).
Also, AO3 complies with the laws regarding filtering for minors. If you do not have an account, you are required to click through a step that tells you that you are about to view something explicit. That's really all that sites and such are required to do. Hence, Tumblr making you click through and view on dash blogs they mark as explicit.
@emilyshurley I think there might also be a sorta solution just to play it safe. I saw that people who make mods for games like Sims 4 and stuff have a page for terms of download. What that is is that if you click their masterlist it will take you to a post where they list their conditions and have the words "I agree" and link the actual masterlist to that. Now this might take a little effort but we could add something similar before our masterlists.
This is all legal stuff, not site-specific rules. Each site can implement their own decency rules and enforce them how they see fit. For example, Tumblr, as a company, can decide to delete your blog. (They’ve stopped doing this since The Purge, now just marking each blog explicit and making you click on a couple things to get to those blogs they deem explicit.) Should they choose to do this, it does not mean that you’re in trouble with the law.
Now, onto the fun stuff!
Q: What is the first thing you think of when someone asks you for advice about writing smut?
Ash: Word choice- don't make the reader cringe. It's easy to fall into that because smut can be graceful and tasteful if it's done right. And that starts with thinking through word choice and how the scene is flowing. It's not easy to write smut! I think a lot of non-writer readers do not realize that.
Note: During the chat, we created a Google Sheets spreadsheet, with two sheets in it, with lists of words to use to refer to different things when you’re writing smut. The first sheet is Good Words, and the second sheet is Bad Words. Everyone can enter words they like and don’t like on both sheets, and we’ll crowd-source this problem! Check it out and add your favorites!
Michelle: A smut scene takes ten times as long for me to write as anything else. Just keeping track of limbs is difficult! And clothing....sometimes, I just make them dry hump so I don't have to deal with removing all the clothing! Other times, it's just, "Somehow, you suddenly found yourself naked." Like, there's a million great ways to get characters naked, but if I'm tired, angels snap.
@fictionalabyss (Mel): I've read stuff where a position makes no sense and it ruins the whole thing for me.
Michelle: I actually bought a couple of those posable dolls from IKEA. (IKEA - GESTALTA, Artist’s figure)
@babypieandwhiskey (Cam): I’ll have to use my daughter’s old Barbie dolls! I can keep track of both limbs and clothing!
Q: Ash, what are a few of the words that turn you off when you're reading smut?
Ash: It's usually words that sound so "romance novel"-ish to me. So "turgid member" is a good example. Please no one ever write that.
Mel: Sometimes, keeping it simple is the safest and best bet.
Ash: Absolutely, Mel! Sometimes we don't need all the extra words if we're showing the heat that's already there between them.
[What followed was a long discussion of various terms you definitely should not use in serious smut. They’ve all been added to the spreadsheet linked above, so fee free to check it out.]
Michelle: EVERYONE has those words that squick them, and it's damn near impossible to write a smut scene that doesn't include a word that will squick someone out there. So, don't stress about what words you do or don't use, cuz there's always gonna be someone out there who doesn't like something. Just make sure YOU think what you're writing is hot. If you don't get warm under the collar from it, no one else will, either.
Ash: I highly recommend everyone is reading their fics out loud to see how it all flows. You'll catch errors and weird words there too.
Q: Ash, how do you get in the frame of mind to write something you personally have never experienced? For example, certain kinks.
Ash: Whiskey? LOL No, I do a lot of research- google, porn, erotica. Trying something out in person helps too! But we're writing fiction. You can make a kink work for your scenario too.I mean, I've written a reader squirting after 5 minutes to move things along but we all know it takes longer usually. And that's the fun! I've never actually been with 2 dudes but I f-ing love writing it.
@atc74 (Angelina): I've always said I don't need to kill someone to write a murder scene.
Ash: Smut is all about having an open mind. It lets us and the readers be someone else.
Question submitted earlier by @erins-culinary-service: I've wanted to try writing smut but never known exactly how to start and what words to use to describe everything. I've had sex so I know the sensations, positions, etc I'm just not sure how to write it all down any advice?
Ash: So sometimes I can't just start from "they kissed..." I start wherever I can see it best. So is it oral sex, or already doing it, I just jump in. And then I come back and fill it in. And I just write, no stopping once I get going. So the "cock into her hole" can be fixed later on my next edit. I just gotta get the idea out and then go back and make it hot. My smut is never hot in my first draft.
Michelle: I think that's what stops a lot of writers, is thinking they have to publish their first draft. Editing is totally a thing. Just get the ideas on paper, and then make them hot later.
Ash: Oh yeah, I go through at least 3 drafts per fic. Plus my beta version. Yeah, no one is ever going to see your drafts so don't worry about starting somewhere, anywhere.
Michelle: And remember, practice practice practice - As with any writing, the more you write it, the easier it becomes. I wrote Third Wheel as a way to challenge myself with writing smut. Do a kink bingo or alphabet challenge. Just remember, you’re gonna write crap at the start, but crap makes good compost.
Ash: Taking some time between edits is important too. It'll help you see different ways, AND you'll start having breakthroughs during the time away. Bingos are a great challenge that will help a writer grow.
Cam: Writing smut is like sex, you're first time is going to be awkward and things won't be perfect, but with practice it gets better.
Mel: I have a series that shows even the millionth time having sex isn't perfect and can be all laughs 🤣. But yeah.
Question submitted earlier by @focusonspn: i wanted to know about ways and words to describe orgasms and how to approach the moment after it without being awkward or forced. some people say those are the easiest things to write, but somehow i always have a hard moment trying to write them.
Ash: Hmmmm, as for the moments after- that's understandable, it is hard because its a transition. I think it's doesn't have to be an extended part of it- unless they're about to have a talk or aftercare needs a scene, it can be as simple as "we drifted off to sleep."
Michelle: As always, my advice is to read smut that other people write that you like, and take note of what they do.
Mel: Someone can get up and get dressed and leave. They can play in the fluids. They can lay there catching their breaths for a moment. It can be simple. Sometimes it doesn't need a flourish and that flourish can make it seem forced.
Michelle: I think it depends on what type of smut fic you're writing. Is it fluffy smut where they're all in LOVE and kissy and stuff? Or is it Soulless Sam and Demon Dean just getting down and dirty and claiming you for themselves? Or, Soulless Sam or Demon Dean just getting their rocks off and they don't give a shit?
@emilyshurley (Emily): Also this might be my f*cked up brain but I think if someone is not comfortable with a lot of fluffy buildup to smut trying soulless!Sam or Demon!Dean could be a great start. You also have a little room to do a little out of character.
Michelle: We are blessed with a world that includes all types of characters and all types of situations, from curses (sex pollen, love potions, etc) to supernatural beings, to inspire and give us chances to write all kinds of smut. There are no limits to what you can do in Supernatural, so there are no limits to what we can write.
Ash: Yeah we can really make most kinks work in some way in the SPN worlds.
Emily: Also again with going out of character I read a captain America fic where it could have been a little out of character how he jumped straight to sex (someone commented that) but sex pollen made it work. So basically these tropes/kinks can also be good devices for writing NSFW fics to if you struggle to get the characters write in the beginning.
Other links mentioned:
Emily: I saw this advice list on Tumblr, so thought I should share it: List of Smut Writing Guides
Ash: This one, too: @smut-101′s Smut Tips Masterlist
And last, but definitely not least...
Ash: Always, always, always write for you. Readers come and go but you have to be satisfied and proud of what you've written. And everyone should get so much credit for trying to write smut. It's difficult but its does get easier and more fun with practice!
General Pond Updates and Reminders
What we’ve got cooking up next: Not much, at the moment, since everyone is busy, so we’re just trying to keep up with the day-to-day at the moment! Our to do list is still long, though, and will not be neglected forever!
Reminders:
Angel Fish Award nominations are accepted all month long! No need to wait to tell us how much you liked a fellow Fish’s work! IF YOU HAVE SENT IN A NOMINATION, BUT HAVE NOT RECEIVED A PRIVATE MESSAGE CONFIRMING WE RECEIVED IT, WE DIDN’T GET IT. Be sure to use Submit instead of Ask!
Don’t forget to submit your stories to be posted to the blog! When your stories are on the blog, then they are easier to nominate for Angel Fish Awards!
Say hi to September’s New Members!
Check the Pond CALENDAR to see when Big Fish will be in the Skype chat room/discord general channel and other Pond and SPN events are happening! Know of something that’s not on the calendar, send us an ask or submission with the deets info details! The calendar offers a lot of features, such as showing you when things are in your own timezone! Since we’re an international group, that’s a definite plus!!
We don’t have a topic or speaker set up for November’s event, yet, so if there’s something you want to talk about, or someone you want to talk to, LET US KNOW!
December 2019 Pond LiveChat Recap - Structuring Longer Plots
We had a great time chatting with @jhoomwrites, today! Thank you so much for joining us and sharing your wisdom and experience!
Our chat was all about structuring longer plots, filler vs plot, and the different types of structures that are out there. (Mostly, we talked about how we don’t always have a structure in mind when we’re writing, and how we deal with it when a story breaks apart the structure we’d so carefully constructed.) A rundown of the chat, as well as general Pond news, is below the cut!
For those who don’t know her, Ashley is an avid writer, not just of fan fiction. She’s popular on Tumblr and AO3 for Destiel stories of all lengths, from little emoji ficlets she bangs out from requests (where followers send her a short string of emojis and she writes a story using them all) up to epic stories. She’s currently working on a hockey fan fiction that was her NaNoWriMo project, but with 120 SPN works on AO3, we’ve got plenty to read while she’s distracted with her hockey boys! (I’ve convinced her to be a member of the Pond, so hopefully we’ll see her around a lot in the future!)
We started off talking about how long our fics can get ( @katehuntington won with her Sullivan Series, which is currently at 570k), and whether we’re planners or pansters or a mix. Kate and Ashley are both kind of mixed, while @mrswhozeewhatsis has never successfully outlined a story, yet.
Q: Was My Liege Lord (her longest at around 80k) planned or pansted?
Ashley: It was both. I had planned out some things, but then I got new ideas as I went that I wanted to explore and it padded out the length. I had a whole fic worth of plans, but just the amount of time in their lives I ended up covering necessitated adding things.
Kate: I do that too. I stick to the plan, but I add soooooo much stuff along the way.
Q: When you write, and plan out a story, do you use a particular structure?
Ashley: I haven't written out a plan for a fic in some time, but I was really consistent with the style I used for a while. I would do a chart with the main plot points to the left, and then details (excerpt of dialogues, notes about specific scenes, etc) to the right. Here’s an example:
Ashley: It helps me when I get ideas later, I can find parts in the story by looking to the left and then add notes. It's my favorite way to plan out a story, especially if I know it will be multiple chapters and if I might not be starting it any time soon. This is much nicer than the outline for the story I'm working on now, which is just a list of events in chronological order (and another list of "things i could add but i don't know where this goes"). I wrote the outline about a day before I started so I didn't need as much structure.
Q: Having a plan helps, then?
Ashley: I didn't used to plan, but then I started a multi-chapter fic and realized...... I don't have an ending. So, I like to plan that out to make sure I have an actual beginning, middle, and end.
Michelle: When I start, I have an idea and an ending. That’s it. All my stories have the same ending, though: And then they kissed and lived happily ever after!
Kate: It does give freedom, not having a detailed outline.
Ashley: That is true, it does make me sad when I get somewhere in the outline and there's something I'd liked, that I'd wanted to include, but it doesn't work anymore and I have to scrap it. Gotta balance sticking to the outline vs adapting to how the tone/characters have developed.
Q: Is your planning method something you learned, or something you developed? And do you use the same structure for all of your stories?
Ashley: Something I developed. I haven't had any real training or instruction in writing. I was struggling with longer fics being unorganized and not coming together at the end, so I needed something for myself. I like making charts, so I figured that was a good way to start! lol It's not something I do as much, anymore. It was a great tool when I started doing it, and I did it for years... but possibly because I've gained more writing experience with longer stories, I don't need to do it anymore. I start a fic with a general idea, I figure out where that idea is going, and start writing. I do more of a mental checklist now. Of course, for original stories, things I hope to one day publish, I will still outline.
Q: Do parts of your structure have names? A quick Google search on how to structure novels brought back about a lot of different methods for structuring a novel, all with different numbers of steps. Each step had a general idea, like rising action, climax, falling action, etc. I guess I mean, what parts of a story do you feel need to be there for it to work? What are the parts of your structure?
Ashley: Having never paid particular attention in my English classes, I would be hard pressed to put names on different parts of my story structure. I view it as beginning (set up, putting things in place), middle (the actual story more or less, all of the action), and ending (wrapping things up, resolution).
Q: When you half wing it and the story is coming along, and then you hit a plot hole, how do you handle that?
Ashley: Well uh... **points vaguely towards abandoned WIPs** it can be rough. I do have some people I work with in terms of brainstorming. And if I get stuck with a fic I'm committed to, that I'm enjoying writing, then I talk it through with them. Sometimes, those issues are coming up--not because the story wasn't outlined--but more because I've just lost that spark of interest that I had before, and it's time to move on, anyway.
Q: There was a question submitted to the Pond by @kittenofdoomage about filler vs. plot.
Ashley: I think that's a real issue I face, filler vs plot. For some stories, I feel like I write a chapter and then can't really see what it adds to the story except maybe giving more characterization. My Liege Lord, I can think of some examples... and sometimes those things are cool, they're fun little ideas to explore and that's the only universe you could do it in, so you do it maybe for your own sake more than the story's. I think there's also a difference between reader and writer perceptions of what's filler. For my current project, there are scenes I wanted to include because I felt they were necessary to the plot, but I got the impression from people I'd polled that they would not be interested in those scenes (basically it's a romance and I was going to include things that were not directly related to the romance aspect and they said if it was more than a few paragraphs or so they didn't care).
Michelle: I struggled with that with The Babysitter. Almost half of that fic is flashbacks to when the brothers were growing up and how their relationship with the reader developed. I considered cutting them all, but the fic felt thin. Sometimes, I'd pop a flashback chapter in there just to slow down the action in the present a bit, if you know what I mean. Like, chapter X is the night before the big battle, and chapter Y is the big battle, but it felt rushed to just go from X to Y, so I stuck D in between them.
Ashley: Yeah, pacing is important, so the "filler" can help regulate that. It might also depend on if you view stories as about the plot or about the characters. If you view it as plot, then yes, you don't want that non-plot filler. If you view it as characters, then the filler doesn't necessarily move the story, but it adds depth and dimension to the characters and makes you appreciate them more. (I mean... I love the characters so much, I'd watch an episode of them just doing chores around the bunker...no plot, just them.)
Kate: I just write what I feel like is right. Plus, I’m a sucker for a slow burn myself, so I’m not scared to let the readers wait. I like to use fillers as a stairway to the big reveal or moment. What I love even more is to put a lot of foreshadowing in there, so when they read it the second time, they go: oh!
Rhi: The thing is that I've found is that filler serves a lot of purposes. As mentioned above it's great for dropping a bit of foreshadowing. It's also great for expanding your background and making your characters more than two dimensional. It also gives your readers a breather. Especially if it's a heavy plot. I often find myself rambling in filler, which is where rereading is key. With longer stories, I have a brief outline of what I want. Sometimes I'll write the major points first, the ending etc then follow up with the filler. On occasion, your filler will end up imploding your plans but that's cool. That's when you either roll with it or take a break and neither of those are bad choices. It depends on the individual.
Q: (In one of the articles linked below) Peter Behrens mentioned a novel idea. He basically said he doesn’t worry about structure until the revision stage. He writes what he wants to, and then when he’s revising, he tweaks the story to fit whatever structure it fits to best.
Ashley: I do like that, and that's something that @unforth-ninawaters has mentioned. We're working on shorter stories that would need to be under 7.5k and I said I don't know if I could hit that. She said to write the whole story, even if it's longer, and then have someone edit it with an eye to shorten it, if necessary, and you'll probably end up with a tighter story that way. So, basically, that's how I view writing things, now. I write what I want to write for the story, and if it needs to go, it'll disappear later in the editing process. But what if it does belong? Well, then it's there, already. And yes on slow burns... for fic, it's a staple, and for WIPs, it's part of the lure, the draw in, as a reader--knowing that maybe they will maybe they won't hook up this week.
To close out the chat, we talked about the story structures listed in the following two links:
How to find your novel’s structure - This article discusses the traditional 5-stage plot structure (exposition, rising action, climax, falling action and resolution) and the 3-act structure (setup, confrontation, resolution), as well as some other points, like how characterization can affect structure.
Writing Cooperative - Use a story structure to make writing your novel a lot easier - This article lists several structures, and includes links to read more about each one and their strengths and weaknesses. Different stories might do better under different structures, too. A romance novel wouldn’t necessarily need the 12 steps in The Hero’s Journey.
These links are definitely worth checking out if you have any fears or concerns about your story’s structure!
Next month we’re going to talk about Real People Fiction! We’re still looking for a guest speaker, so if anyone is interested, send a message to @mrswhozeewhatsis!! Date and time to be announced!
General Pond Updates and Reminders
What we’ve got cooking up next: Not much, at the moment, since everyone is busy, so we’re just trying to keep up with the day-to-day at the moment! Our to do list is still long, though, and will not be neglected forever! Next up is organizing the tagging system on the blog to make it easier for readers to find the stories they’re interesting in and for writers to find the help they’re looking for!
Reminders:
Angel Fish Award nominations are accepted all month long! No need to wait to tell us how much you liked a fellow Fish’s work! IF YOU HAVE SENT IN A NOMINATION, BUT HAVE NOT RECEIVED A PRIVATE MESSAGE CONFIRMING WE RECEIVED IT, WE DIDN’T GET IT. Be sure to use Submit instead of Ask!
Don’t forget to submit your stories to be posted to the blog! When your stories are on the blog, then they are easier to nominate for Angel Fish Awards!
Say hi to November’s New Members! (If we missed someone, let us know!)
Check the Pond CALENDAR to see when Big Fish will be in the Skype chat room/discord general channel and other Pond and SPN events are happening! Know of something that’s not on the calendar, send us an ask or submission with the deets info details! The calendar offers a lot of features, such as showing you when things are in your own timezone! Since we’re an international group, that’s a definite plus!!
We’re looking for a guest speaker for January to talk about RPF! If you know of an RPF writer that you’d like to hear from, let us know!!
Today, a handful of Pond members got together and we all chatting about the magical world of ABO, led by @kittenofdoomage !
(Behold, Garth, our favorite werewolf!)
Below the cut is a rundown of what we talked about:
We started with a question that someone had sent to Rhi in her inbox.
Q: So I have kind of considered writing an A/B/O story, but I am not comfortable writing smut. Is there such a thing as a smut free A/B/O story?
Rhi: Of course! A/B/O isn't entirely about the smut. Sometimes it's nice to read about the deeper bonding.
Followup Q: What would be the most important thing to consider/keep in mind in that case?
Rhi: It’s good to find the power balance between Alpha and Omega. Everyone assumes Omega is a blanket submission. But someone like me, for example, I'm not submissive anywhere but the bedroom. In every other respect, my "Alpha" does what he's damn well told. LOL.
Everyone else: Finding your other half, the person you can be yourself with. Omegas feeling at home and safe with their alpha, alphas feeling like they can be soft when taking care of their omega.
Q: When should alpha, beta, and omega be capitalized, or is it a personal choice?
Rhi: Personal choice. For me, it's a title, and should be capitalized as such but it really depends on where you learned English. It's all very proper over here. Pip pip and all that.
Everyone else: Alpha and omega as terms are kind of like mom and dad. If you are using them as a name, it should be capitalized, but if you’re using it as a noun (like saying, “I talked to my mom.”), then it shouldn’t be. It does come down to personal choice, though. Most ABO fics capitalize it everywhere.
Q: Alpha females and omega males and biology, especially mating/breeding and who gets pregnant.
Rhi: Again, there's a lot of personal preference here. For me, I cannot do MPreg. It just... eh, nah, not my thing. On female alphas having knots - Personally, I don't really write it as a knot. In my own little universe, Alpha females are practically infertile, so it would take a very potent Omega to y'know, do the deed.
Everyone else: It seems like every writer handles it differently. Some have female alphas have a kind of internal knot in their vagina that locks on the male’s penis. Some give female alphas and male omegas both sets of genitals, so the male can get pregnant, too. Female alphas carrying babies is not intuitive, but has been written. It’s all up to the writer how they want to interpret things.
Links to fics where there were female alphas and male omegas:
99 Problems by @kittenofdoomage
Resonance by @kittenofdoomage
Intoxicating by @crispychrissy
Broke the Mold by @kittenofdoomage
Q: I just reread @kittneofdoomage's A/B/O Rules post on Tumblr...can you give me an example of a couple canon characters that would be considered betas (male and/or female)? I don't really understand the concept of them. Click here to see the post.
Rhi: Betas are just neither Omega or Alpha. I can't really give examples of them because it depends on each person's individual perception. And also, who they want to write as Beta. For example, a lot of people can't see Sam as anything but Alpha but I've read some really good Omega! and Beta! Sam fics.
Followup Q: Someone mentioned that they’d seen a lot of fics where Cas was a beta.
Rhi: That's another point of preference. Some people would argue that Castiel is a celestial being so he wouldn't have a concept of sexuality, although in the show, we do see him beginning to explore that side of his vessel's gender. I always think that demons/angels can be Alpha, Beta, Omega, while they are possessing a vessel, but they have varying degrees of control over those carnal impulses. i.e. older demons would be able to control the vessel's urges a little better, more senior angels would have more command over the vessel. Think of it like the cheeseburgers when Famine was in town. Castiel had no control against a stronger being, he was completely obedient to the need for cheeseburgers. So, one could theorize that he is isn't immune to the physiology of his vessel but that at his strongest, he could completely override it. Crowley - when he was using human blood, he gave into his much more human urges. He was easily influenced by the biology of his vessel for human comforts.
The conversation closed with this thought by @mrswhozeewhatsis :
This whole conversation has me thinking about the concept for "secondary gender". Like, because of the knot and such, ABO is really more the primary gender, and male/female is secondary. I think that's where a lot of confusion comes into it. Especially when writers decide to switch things up from your basic alpha/male and omega/female.
What if there were a world where male and female were simply defined by how you dress and act? If alpha meant you had a dick and omega meant you had a vagina, but male meant you were aggressive and female meant you were more nurturing?
Rhi: Probably be a nicer place to live than this one.
Can’t argue with that.
Thanks to Rhi for hosting this chat where we could explore the different angles of the ABO world and get our questions answered from the ABO Queen, herself!
