had huge sad thoughts about 11x16 last night about dean potentially lamenting his immaturity w bobby
it’s so funny and i think it’s how s16 would go for sam
dean is so unnecessarily on bobby’s ass with the “slacker” comment re: bobby’s journal
the whole ep too is sooo sad - about pairs of parent-child getting caught, and it’s dean and bobby that get caught across time 😭😭😭😭
then we see that dean is why bobby didn’t finish his damn journal entry and it’s dean being hardass/drill sargent to him on the phone 😭😭😭 the irony!!!! he lost him and didn’t appreciate him when he had him ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
and dean’s like this w bobby in weekend at bobby’s too he’s such a me me me brat to him i’m crying
honestly it reminds me a littttle off-key of how mary was w samuel re: liddy walsh
she expects him to be there jump when she says jump 😭😭😭😭
bobby is so load-bearing for dean
(and cas is this for dean too soooo quickly; the true load bearing ppl in dean’s life… he doesn’t ask but expects)
edit: this is something cas and bobby specifically can commiserate over except ofc dean rarely stops to consider bobby pov naturally and doesn’t exactly want to be on equal footing… (bobby is so opposite of parentification it’s almost other extreme lol; and it’s a relief for dean)… anyway, with cas, dean gets tangled up with Weird partnership feelings soooo quick and simultaneous “plz handle it and soothe me” vibes
these are so interesting bc dean is like this w so few ppl
Okay there’s a BIG difference between:
“Nobody cares that you’re broken.”
“Nobody cares that you’re broken; [so] clean up your mess.”
The first implies that Dean doesn’t care about Cas or what Cas is experiencing and struggling with. That is not true. Oh that is not true. He cares more than anyone else about what happens to Cas.
The second is saying, “Stop using excuses (i.e. your brokenness) to ignore your mess or leave it for someone else to deal with.”
I’ve said shit like this to people. “I don’t care that you suddenly have a stomachache that you didn’t have a second ago; take out the trash.”
Do I actually care if they’re hurt, uncomfortable, stressed, etc?. Yes, of course I do. What I’m actually saying is, “Don’t try to make up or use some excuse to get out of what needs to get done.”
Dean was frustrated. Dean wanted Cas to pull his weight. Dean wanted Cas to own his choices, choices which led to death and chaos and all of which began with betrayal when Cas turned his back on Dean and went to Crowley instead.
Dean was still hurt (“You didn’t trust me? Me?). He was also wrestling with his guilt, per usual, that he didn’t listen to Cas once he did find out what was going on. Had they actually worked together, they might’ve prevented a whole lotta bad.
But shoulda, woulda, coulda. It happened. And here was Dean, showing up and doing everything in his human power to take down Dick and put the monsters back in Purgatory permanently—something CAS SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING because it was a Cas-created mess to begin with.
I don’t blame Dean one fucking bit for being upset with Cas here. Now, did he go about it wrong? Yup. My telling someone, “I don’t care about what you’re feeling right now, take out the trash,” is not a correct way to communicate. They don’t like hearing it and it is ineffective because it doesn’t make them want to listen or help me. They either become angry and indignant, or hurt and quiet.
Despite Cas’ reticence in helping, Dean ultimately accepted that Cas was going to collect honey, play Twister, and contemplate the moral dilemma of animal testing. Dean “Applications for Sainthood” Winchester didn’t kick Cas to the curb or tell him to get lost if he wouldn’t help as he normally would have done with anyone else. Dean was going to take Cas as-is, even if he wasn’t happy about choices Cas was making.
Cas, I need a wingman. You don't want to jump into the jaws of death, that's... fine. How about we run a little errand?
When they arrived, Cas was going to apologize or make excuses again—don’t know because he just says Dean’s name in that serious way, like he has something important to say. And Dean stops him:
Cas, we've been over it. I get it. You can't help.
Dean essentially said the same thing as he had said before but he worded it just a bit different. So his TAKE 2 was much softer than his initial outburst:
Yeah, but you know what? Bottom of the ninth, and you're the only guy left on the bench? Sorry, but I'd rather have you, cursed or not. And anyway, nut up, all right? We're all cursed. I seem like good luck to you?
Dean expressed his faith in Cas and related to him here. And Cas felt empowered and inspired to finally do what’s right.
The reason we love these characters is because they’re broken, flawed, and they put their foot in their mouth all the damn time just like me and just like you... and they learn from that so that they can grow and try to do better.
I’m just tired of seeing Dean being misquoted as not caring about Cas here, or only wanting Cas around as some tool to be used. That is not what was being said here. It is not how Dean views Cas, and he sucks at communicating it to him, but nobody cares about Cas like Dean does, period.
Dean very much did become his Endverse self in a lot of ways, but instead of feeding Cas to the meat grinder to accomplish the desperate mission, he fed it Amara and Jack. (With, honestly, a bit of Cas’s blessing, especially about Amara, and though Cas looked for a different way about Jack, it felt a bit weak in the face of his struggle with Jack’s Big Destiny.)
Even if both regretted it, (“You consumed your sister?” / “Come on, a spell, anything! We’re not giving up on you!”)
It was done.
And it was done so late in the season and without much care, that honestly the series never fully recovered from it.
Feel free to ignore if you don’t wanna answer, I just wanted to pitch something to you, since I’ve seen you briefly-kinda talk about it in the past:
Say Andrea Kormos wasn’t killed by Dean, and say Benny didn’t leave her on Prentiss Island—very canon divergent lmao—; Do you think the two of them would continue running their maker’s operations together, or would Benny somehow convince her to leave that life behind and choose a different kind of freedom? (The second one implying that Benny would put in the work and effort to show Andrea a different way of life).
This is probably more fanon than anything, so I apologize; you just usually have great ideas, so I thought I’d bounce them off of you and see what you thought. ❤️!!
Oh, no. I don't mind!
Hmm, not sure how I feel about Benny being the one to show Andrea the correct and ethical way to be a vampire, when she's the thing that Benny oriented his morality around originally... Is Benny really going to show her a different way, when the different way was originally... just HER?
I mean. Maybe. But it doesn't feel quite right to me somehow. Benny doesn't imho LOOK much like a monster character that builds community or even rebels against the way of doing things per se. Or at least not naturally (and that's ok!) He usually runs, then later gets Revenge. He's more Mary Winchester runaway than, for example, Garth's father-in-law, Rev Jim Myers. (SEE: Jim Myers, who challenged a whole werewolf Apocalyptic belief system and built a community.)
This is a BIT of a departure from your original question:
Andrea
I think a more interesting story would be Andrea coming into contact with something, or someone that made her re-evaluate humanity on her own terms, or even remember her Greek roots.
It would hurt, probably, for Andrea to rediscover what she loves in something outside of Benny, but I think that's how it might go on the high seas unless Benny grows in a very specific way.
Benny borrowed her humanity, and then when she fell form it, he was completely fatalistic and dehumanizing to her. Especially after Purgatory, he's not a vampire who's inspiring people to "new, ethical ways." -> ("We're all damned.") I can't imagine him carrying that mentality on the high seas with any success. I think she'd have to find this way on her own, free from the father vampire. I think Andrea's arc should go in an opposite way of Benny's suicide: "I remember who I am now: I want to support people DESPITE being a vampire."
Benny died because of how he felt about his own plight: "I don't fit, so I might as well do something good in pursuit of my own preferred suicide/fatalism/hopelessness."
Andrea's heroic putting-her-life-on-the-line would in my mind need to be the opposite: "I AM still like you; it's my mutual humanity with you that makes me care enough to give my own life for something I discovered I still care about."
That's what we see at the end of season 10 with corrupted Dean:
DEAN: And you know what? I don't blame Rose [for her own corruption] anymore.
&
DEAN: I let Rudy die. How was that not evil? I know what I am, Sam. But who were you when you --when you drove that man to sell his soul... Or when you bullied Charlie into getting herself killed? And to what end? A-a good end? A just end? To remove the Mark no matter what the consequences? Sam, how is that not evil? I have this thing on my arm, and you're willing to let the Darkness into the world.
Dean's struggle with his own monstrosity let him see humanity in himself, albeit an ugly humanity. And monstrosity within humanity, for that matter.
OFC, due to the psychological damage of 24-7/360-war grayscale Poughkeepsie Pure (TM) Purgatory-world, Dean and Benny were the opposite of this headspace when they killed her, so EYE think it'd be THE natural way to handle her arc. I believe SHE is the NARRATIVE GHOST haunting The Werther Project ep too in a major, MAJOR thematic way on this issue specifically.
ANDREA: I'm RIGHT here. I'm [still] here!
(Why can't you see me?)
///
Benny
You know, originally when I watched, I thought maybe Benny consensually drained Andrea when living away from his vampire nest, but on second watch, he's emphatic that in that time with Andrea, he used the black market, which is interesting. The ethics of the black market is a very Sam Winchester-coded approach, like. I mean. At minimum, it's a complicated, tenuous sort of ethics, right?
Black markets can and IRL do get utilized humanely for food, medicine, or other necessities. BUT. It CAN lurch into, "I don't condone it, but my support comes in ways that enable others to be exploited, but don't make me personally feel guilty." (Which again, what are the alternatives? I don't know. It's certainly a problem I'm very sympathetic to.)
Aside/// This could also be a smokescreen for using Andrea ofc, but again, why not just say ethical rather than black market specifically? So he's either lying, AFRAID to drink Andrea (an anon pointed out that almost all drinking results in kills a la Dean and almost-Lisa, so it's something he wouldn't dare risk), or Andrea having big juicy objections about the practice of it.
All interesting in their own right.
But to the real point: even if Benny did use the black market or rely on Andrea, I'm not convinced he's ever in a position to have "put in the work" to "show her a new way," even out on the high seas. He can't even talk to a vampiric Andrea without passive-aggressively calling her a whore (yes, as a ruse, of course), then immediately spiraling when she expresses fear and hopelessness—calling her a non-person and a failure he wants to leave in a smoking crater.
This is not a charismatic guy. He's not the kind of person who's going to convince Andrea of anything. More importantly, he's not the kind of person who's going to convince ANYONE of anything, because, crucially, he doesn't actually believe in anything. Which, again, tragic and very VERY understandable to be beaten down like that.
He sees "something" in humanity, but that seems, esp without Andrea, a tragic way to make himself more palatable to his troubled idea of himself. (Fatalism.)
On his second-go-round at life, it's obvious he hadn't planned much beyond getting his Big Revenge. (A la John.) What on earth is he going to teach a high-seas Andrea that she doesn't already know? "Get lucky and take a human lover as supply? Pick off rich people yachts and heiresses or Evil People who 'deserve' it?" Maybe she was already planning to "pick up where Dad left off," but have it be about "Saving People, Drinking Things" approach.
But it's implied in the deleted scene that without his one friend helping him, Benny fell off the wagon and fed. That's pretty heavy, and again, it doesn't speak to a resourceful vampire who has anything to teach Andrea about how to make it work. While it IS true Sam IS working behind the scenes to keep Benny branded as outsider and keep people hot on his tail, Benny's OWN past is also doing that in equal measure.
In canon, he goes to his granddaughter to get support from her, not really to give it. ("I even found someone to hold myself accountable to. Best kind of someone, Dean. Family.") And it's hard to be a source of support when you're unstable yourself—hence the ghost-of-John energy. And the Sam-coded, "I don't trust myself," of it all. Could he have grown past that? Sure. Cas did with Claire. But Benny's situation is different. After his pragmatic acts of loyalty are over, he's searching for an ephemeral "goodness," and I think that's a much more significant barrier to overcome. He's not even looking for redemption or ways to support others, really. It's just not on his radar.
Benny really is THE vampire. He's like Sam in that he's so busy surviving he's not thinking much about others much except if it aligns with his immediate goals. Helping Dean to go topside to get the big Revenge (talking sassily down to Dean about eating "the little piggies" when Dean pressed him about safety), saving Cas to ensure Dean's trust, going his granddaughther he's apparently never had need of visiting before, and then helping save Sam again because he wants really the big S Suicide.
BENNY: He's chasing a memory, Dean. That's all.
He might as well be talking about himself.
EDIT: I've said this before but Benny DOES remind me of if late-season Mary was faced with the Hunter John, who descended from the Goodness of Civilian Life into the Corruption of Hunter Life and Became Too Much like all the ugly things Mary saw in herself. But I think Mary IS more like Dean on the whole, in that she's pro-Redemption, because despite the odds, she still believes in it for herself (which is what imho The Werther Project really shows)!
im just so tired of people bringing up the "jack's not family" line, like yes that was an awful thing for him to say but he literally expects jack to come back with him and sam to the bunker at the end of inherit the earth it's very clear he was just lying to himself, imo. like yes he did that but that wasn't the last thing he said to jack ever and he even tries to help jack the very next episode when jack is exploding and he comes to his senses.
Right, so this one is tricky. And heartbreaking.
Because the case for this "not being enough" is well-argued and complicated.
After TFW comes to their respective senses in Unity/Despair (Sam breaks out of analysis-paralysis, Dean throws away revenge and takes on death directly, Cas verbalizes that Jack isn't part of some grand plan), it's true that they hastily try to make amends.
BUT.
But they're out of time. They're all out of time.
We see Sam, the idea-guy, completely give up hope. And though Dean is dazed, he is trying to be "back to normal re: supporting Jack," more like what we see from him during LAST HOLIDAY.
///
Some snippets:
Dean feels responsible for what happened to Cas. He knows he's not enough:
Dean feels responsible for the disappearance of the world's future. Jack's future:
//
And Dean himself is DAZED
//
Dean is trying to pull himself together for JACK, specifically: "Dean rises...gives Jack a warm little nod."
//
Dean is dazed throughout, really. We see that he stayed up REFRESHING the newscast feed, hoping this was a nightmare he could wake up from
//
And here, Dean is commiserating with Jack and they're clinging together more than Jack is with Sam.
We can see the dynamic at play. That this time, Dean and Jack have been the ones forced to huddle together for support in the face of Sam's overwhelming despair and fatalism.
Jack enters the library.
Jack: Guys, I'm... feeling something weird.
Dean: Yeah, me, too, pal. We need aspirin.
&
When Dean grabs Miracle, he is likely anticipating the excitement of showing him to Jack, trying again, to let his gentleness and love fly free:
//
Further proof that the dynamic has shifted to a Dean-and-Jack having the strength dynamic. We see this after Sam verbalizes his despair again...and Dean tries to rally.
//
With Michael, we again see that the unit naturally flows into a cluster of Dean-Jack-Michael while Sam tries to muster up more lore, trying to be "the idea guy" while the others eat and converse:
&
///
So then we come to the end. The above rushes by quickly and we get:
&
Dean gets Miracle back, and he's already anticipating going home (with Jack). Dean got his faith back in s12 after Cas returned.
This time, Dean is trying to generate that faith all on his own.
In s12, when Dean got his faith back, he got up the strength to rescue Mary and tackle Jack's new powers and the continued string of wound-be kidnappers.
Perhaps here in s15, Dean is thinking about the same thing. They'll go home to recover and then get back to work. Dean is anticipating working with Jack and showing love to a new family member, a dog...
...and he's already dreaming of getting Cas back.
///
Dean has hope. And so much of it. It even comes off a little showmanship-ey.
Of Jack, he's like, "This is still Jack! We're back online! Only way onward from here is up!"
&
And Dean invokes the Dean Cave. But here's the thing.
In effect, the beats of the actions come off as, “Jack saves the world,” and “Dean offers to reward him... with a TV.”
The optics are a little bit “Quid pro quo.” And it's okay to point that out. Tragic, even.
It's because we know Dean that we know that isn't how he wants it to come off. That he's overcorrecting in the context of all the heartache they've been through.
///
And just like he's masking all this regret with over-the-top cheeriness, he starts to mask his sudden heartbreak, “masking emotion with irritation.”
Suddenly, Dean's dreams start to crumble. Jack's not coming home? He's bailing? What about them? What about (Cas)?
You've got a lot of people counting on you, he says. And by people, he means their own family.
///
When he realizes it's too late, that he's not getting what he wants, Dean is so overwhelmed that he can't even speak.
The fact is: Dean's attempts were too little, too late. (Though very complex and human and sympathetic!)
And Dean knows it. We went from zero to trying to generate his own faith and overcorrecting with Jack all episode, followed by being over the moon at getting his family back.
Then he lost it again.
Dean tries to crest on victory and be happy that the world is restored and they're free of Chuck. (They rescued Jody, Claire, Garth, and others!)
He clings to the concept of freedom, of HOPE IN THE FUTURE.
That he can make use of the gifts he's been given.
To live (maybe even get a real job, as we will see from his employment application later).
Dean's still trying to generate his own hope going forward, but as we see from the state of his room in the finale six months later... he's failing at that.
Sigh. :(
///////////////
This theme of Jack's “vanishing” and Dean's “death via prolonged heart SQUEEZE” (followed by being stabbed through the heart)
are further underlined in the SPNwin companion episode to the finale, The Winchesters episode 12: Tears of a Clown.
It's a reference to that sometimes people are TRYING to be strong and putting on a smile, when they're really not doing well at all.
CLARENCE: I didn't know what to do...how to help him through
his grief, you know? So instead, a day after the funeral, I took him to the carnival to try and cheer him up. It only made things worse.
..
That's when I heard of the Legend of Limbo. If only I'd helped him through his grief instead of taking him to that damn carnival, he'd be here right now.
...
MARY: Clarence used the carnival as an escape, so his brother wouldn't have to face his problems.
Thinkin about Dean's complicated desires to protect and be protected; the competing desire to be trusted with and shielded from
////
One of the first scenes that epitomized Dean's warring needs re: Cas was in 5x18.
CASTIEL: Because there are at least five angels in there.
DEAN: So? You’re fast.
CASTIEL: They’re faster.
CASTIEL takes off his tie and wraps it around his palm.
CASTIEL: I’ll clear them out. You two grab the boy. This is our only chance.
DEAN: Whoa, wait. You’re gonna take on five angels?
///
There are many ways to deal with this deranged, contradictory emotion. To (A) goad him into being faster, harder, stronger or (B) call him a baby and a whiner and hope that he steps up or (C) take him out of the fight all together "Just stay here and get better!"
///
SNIPPET from this conversation:
(In season 14)
...there's the irrational desire of Dean's that Cas would just fix it all and shield Dean from all of it. This is something that Dean's scripted irrationality in Game 14x18 Absence accomplishes so, so well:
CAS: "Are you mad because I didn't tell you-- or that I'm telling you at all?" DEAN: "BOTH!"
It's both!!!!!
He craves Cas's protection. But he resents it, too. It's what he loves about him. It's what he hates about him. It's the power dynamic that brings him simultaneous comfort and pain.
The sad thing is, if Cas had solved Jack's soul problem on his own, Dean would have probably been elated and relieved. Just like how he was in total awe when Cas got the Leviathan blossom on his own. Dean was weak in the knees for it-- ready to tell Cas something big for it. It's so messy and dualistic and complicated.
///
Anyway, that protectorship of it all is complicated. That's what this spooky line is about in 15x02. Everyone everywhere is reminding Cas of his failed familial obligations. Here are the civilians in the gym, getting frustrated with Cas:
ANDY: First Nan went missing. Now Dave and Sheri. CASTIEL: We are looking for them everywhere. ANDY:You said you'd keep us safe. [Cas has no better answers for him. He pauses, closes his eyes for a moment, and then walks away]
Cas is the failed protector, the absent soldier who's trying his best to be on ALL impossible fronts: battlefield, home, marriage, work.
It's the same raw frustration we see out of a distraught Dean in 3x10:
DEAN: He's the one who couldn't protect his family. He- (DEAN steps back and swings the weapon again, hitting DREAM DEAN twice.) He's the one who let Mom die.
Cas was supposed to succeed where John failed! But it's too much weight. No one can be that strong. Not even Cas.
TFW are fascinating, messy disaster parents, and I dig it.
Sometimes, they lapse into treating Jack as extensions of themselves, a well-known struggle in parenting. And TFW dynamics re: power and protecting and being in the war together? Ugh!
What got me thinking about this was Dean and Cas, and their lapse of judgment in 15x12:
In 15x12, Dean is leaning into using Jack to get revenge, because he wants revenge. Cas is leaning into "Jack fulfilling his destiny," which is also troubling, because it hints that Cas wants to change the world and bring on paradise, but to do that, you sort of have to take over, and Cas has certainly been entangled before with revolution to do it. Jack is thematically fulfilling what Godstiel could not.
[DEAN and CAS sit in the chairs, each with a glass of whiskey in their hands. Celebratory.]
CAS: I knew it, Dean. When I was with Jack’s mother, she… You know, Kelly just had faith that Jack would be good for the world, and I felt it, too. I knew it. And then, when everything went wrong, and God took him from us… I was lost in a way I’ve never been before. Because I knew the story wasn’t over. I knew Jack wasn’t done. And I was right.
DEAN: Well, here’s to being right.
[DEAN holds up his glass and CAS clinks his glass against DEAN’s.]
DEAN: And here’s to payback. Hmm? Come on. What, revenge doesn’t sound good to you?
CAS: What sounds good to me is Jack fulfilling his destiny.
They are both tragically wrong, of course, and they'll both realize it when it's too late.
Cas will snap out of trying to slot Jack into this giant "story" and destiny. He'll even get to tell Jack that once before he dies. Nevertheless, Cas doesn't get to really repair their father-son relationship, scarred by big expectations.
Dean will snap out of his need to get revenge at all costs, and to be free, even at the cost of family. He'll return to his time-honored thematic motif of killing/injuring Billie!Death to protect his family. But he will not get the chance to repair his father-son relationship, scarred by using your son as a soldier of war. He's tragically out of time.
///
Jack and mimicry
One interesting thing about Jack is that although he deeply loves Sam as surrogate dad, he chooses Dean and Cas to match and mimic more often.
I can’t think of an instance where Jack mimics Sam or Mary directly to the same extent. (Maybe there's that one moment where Jack uses flattery and puppy eyes to adorably manipulate Rowena?)
But I find it fascinating that Jack instinctually, tragically mimics Dean and Cas in manners of obvious behaviors and dress. From beer to catch phrases to borrowed cars to matching ties, Jack models himself on Dean and Cas in a distinctly different way than he does for Sam.
Even though Jack has obvious motifs of being a "Special Child" and "Being Responsible for the Death of his Mother," his interior life resembles Dean and Mary more. Yes, we see it when he's soulless, but we also see his need to stew in 13x23 Let the Good Times Roll, when he rushes off after nearly choking a gas station worker to death.
///
What about Sam?
Sam and honesty:
If I'm being charitable, Jack's lack of mimicry of Sam could simply be because Sam feels like a better parent, with better boundaries between parent and child. (Thanks largely in part to Dean, Sam’s upbringing is slightly more secure.)
Jack isn’t looking up to Sam and trying to live up to the idea of Sam in the same way that he's trying to live up to Dean and Cas.
However, that Jack tries to mimic Dean immediately out of the gate somewhat undercuts this theory. Jack instinctually likes Dean.
With Sam, Jack grows frustrated with his perfectionistic training, and it comes to a head when Dean reveals Sam's hidden motivations to save their mom. ("Interdimensional can opener.”)
Now, Jack takes that in stride, but it accidentally results in Jack viewing Sam's niceness with some suspicion, since Sam was dishonest. And although he's terrified of Dean, in a twisted way, in viewing Dean's turbulent emotions, he winds up appreciating his honesty about the true magnitude of his own powers.
///
Sam and independence:
I honestly don't think Sam starts to get a handle on being a parent until the very end of season 13.
The fact that Sam values independence (at least in the abstract) is one of my favorite things about Sam. He tries to be logical and analytical about it, too. (“The heart choice vs the smart choice," from season 11, re: Lucifer and Cas.)
Historically, Sam struggles with the fact that people need independence to a degree but also protection and authority and boundaries.
This is what brings him into conflict with Claire Novak. She’s so used to him being “the cool one” that she doesn’t respond to him flipping a switch to try and wield authority over her.
On the other hand, Dean and Cas have been stern and honest with her from the get-go. (Pretty quickly, she instinctually responded to Cas’s grouchy authority and later Dean’s, as he began to follow Cas's lead.)
So, when Sam does assert that authority outta the blue in 12x16, she’s super betrayed about it:
SAM: We do care.
CLAIRE (raising her voice): Then stop treating me like a stupid kid.
SAM: Then stop acting like one.
(CLAIRE reels back as if slapped. As she walks away, Sam shakes his head, regretting his words)
SAM: Claire...
He lets her go. Later, we see her walking down the school path, headphones on her head. Claire is spun out, not paying attention to her surroundings.
Sam never had to be that for anyone before, and it was incredible to see him have to prioritize safety and reckon with his core value of independence. He even lets her go when he shouldn’t.
This sets him up to learn to balance safety and training for Jack as well as the Apocalypse Hunters.
In season 15, Sam will backslide. He'll begin to overvalue independence once more and make his concerns known only with weak words.
He does not protect Jack, because he begins to see Jack as extension of himself; that is, like he wanted to die with Gadreel and the Hell trials, he is trying to value Jack’s choice. In reality, he really doesn’t do much in the face of Jack's fatalism besides say, “I think it’s wrong.” He tried to physically stop Dean and Cas in 15x17, but it’s also too late.
Hopefully this is a journey Sam will be forced to go on offscreen, with Dean II. Completing Sam's journey of independence versus protection would be one way to get me behind a SPN sequel.
///
Jack and the burden of living up to an idealized Cas
One of the things that sticks out to me is that after Jack is born, Dean compares him to Cas in matters of strength and control.
It’s really unfair, but Jack is expected to step up and (ultimately) become the angelic protector in the house and have absolute control of objectively terrifying superpowers.
We don't always appreciate how terrifying and shitty the burden of Jack's powers are for everyone, and it sucked for all of them. I mean, immediately, Heaven and Hell started coming for the kid, and a prince of Hell almost used him to rip out a portal to nasties worse than demons, the Shedim.
Kelly and Cas decided to bring Jack into the world with full power, under the expectation and hope of Jack wielding that power for "good" on their behalf, but in reality, they left us with a total mess. Without Cas, the only one with actual experience with anything close to that kind of power, it must’ve felt thousands of times more hopeless. That Sam decided to try and soldier on is admirable.
Nonetheless, Jack got the message early:
Be as good as Cas.
Live up to Cas.
You’re not Cas.
It’s your fault Cas is dead and you’re not him, and you’ll never be him. (This comes later.)
Ouch. Already primed to mimic Cas because he literally idolized him from the womb, Dean's ire primes him to mimic Cas even more later on. Cas is someone to live up to.
This in turn primes him to become obsessed with protecting everyone from Michael.
DEAN: Who cares if he didn't do it on purpose? He did it. I mean, you didn't see Cas smiting someone every time he got his teeth cleaned.
JACK: I'm right here, you know.
///
DONATELLO: Oh. Speaking not as a prophet but as a scientist, I don't think teaching him is in the cards. It's like asking a lion not to be a lion.
SAM (angrily): But this is not a lion! This is a human!
DONATELLO: With a strong dose of God juice.
DEAN: Okay, that's it. I'm done, all right? 'Cause he's not God, he's not Cas, he's not Simba. He's the friggin' Devil!
Interesting to note that Donatello is on the side of Jack being hopeless. We will later learn that sometimes God speaks through his prophets (15x08). Makes you wonder if he's been trying to kill Jack much longer than appears.
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Dean, the power struggle, and the irrational position?
There's big push-pull within Dean concerning his lions cosmic family members. Dean's instincts are consistently sounding the alarm, and it's not completely irrational to be aware of the immense power angels hold.
With Cas, there’s this irrational position of, “Protect me-us!” And “No, don’t protect us!”
With Jack there’s that and the whole added component of, “Protect others from yourself!”
(SAM sits next to JACK.)
SAM: We just need to make sure we get a grip on 'em, so...so you don't hurt anybody.
JACK: Is that why Dean hates me?
SAM: Dean doesn't hate you. It... Look, sometimes the wires in Dean's head get crossed and--and he gets frustrated, and then he mixes frustration with anger, and--and fear.
JACK: Why would he be afraid?
SAM: Because Dean feels like it's his job to protect everyone. And right now, we need to protect you. But we also need to protect people from you.
This is a nice conversation at first glance. Sam acknowledges the danger of Jack's powers. (It's interesting to me that Donatello holds the same view as Dean, but no one's holding his feet to the fire.) But also, Sam is SO deep into psycho-analyzing Dean that he's not talking frankly about the reality of the situation.
That is, that it was Lucifer that killed Cas, and Lucifer who pulled Mary into another world. That Dean's grieving! These important details might've helped Jack to understand his situation with a lot more clarity and grace.
Charitably, Sam is sparing Jack that knowledge to protect his volatile(?) emotions. Uncharitably, he's not wanting to rock the boat in order to use Jack's powers to get to the AU earth.
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So, Dean is not exactly “irrational,” despite how Sam (and sometimes Cas) tend to characterize him when he's not responding immediately to a crisis in a way they would prefer (unwavering support and caretaking; Dean is the heart of the team).
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Dean is certainly conflicted
This push-pull dynamic with his cosmic family members is why I looooved this scripted line so much from Game Night and wished they’d kept it in. It perfectly encapsulates the Dean-Cas spousal dynamic:
CAS: Are you mad I didn't tell you-- or that I'm telling you at all?
DEAN: Both!
An irrational position, but he's angry (and scared). Cas can feel it.
What Dean REALLY wants is for all the pain and terrible things to go away; he wants Cas to fix it.
Dean is mad at Cas for protecting him…and for not protecting him.
He wants to be shielded…and not to be shielded.
His needs are in conflict. He wants to be an equal partner with Cas, and yet he doesn't want to hear bad news. He wants Cas to be safe and out of danger...and he likes feeling safe when protected by Cas.
So, for someone like Cas? That’s gotta be baffling as shit but it's also very real and very…uhm…you know. Spousal. He's very aware that Dean speaks in code quite literally and sometimes even tries to have conversations about their lives under the guise of talking about other things. They've been speaking in metaphor since even their early days, and although many of them are lost to Cas, oftentimes, they get their meaning across just fine.
Here's an example of them talking fluently to each other about their fight, under the guise of talking about Michael, from 15x08:
(CAS sitting at the table as Dean enters and grabs beer from the fridge.)
DEAN: Maybe you went too far. ("Maybe I went too far.")
CAS: Maybe.
DEAN: I mean, he's been in lockdown for quite a while, you know? Maybe you just, uh, went too fast. What's he doing now? ("I was a prisoner of Michael and recovering, and then so much happened, and I needed more time and space before talking about it.")
CAS: No idea. He was very distraught. ("I don't know what's going on in your head. You were distraught.")
DEAN: Yeah, but what exactly did he say? ("What did you hear ME say?" Dean doesn't even recall his exact words during the turmoil of losing Mary and Jack, perhaps?)
CAS: "Leave. Get out. I want you dead." We didn't bond. Where's Sam? ("You shut me down and shut me out. We did not SHARE our burdens. I'm going to rely on other family members now. I'm here because I'm helping Sam.")
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Dean craves safety and being protected, but that's incompatible with protecting everyone
Dean never got to be valued and protected growing up, so he secretly craves that. But Sam is correct in his psycho-analysis. Dean's neurosis is wanting to protect everyone, and this is often fundamentally, violently incompatible with letting your family fight alongside you.
All things considered, Dean rarely resorts to going lone wolf, like with the Mark of Cain. Despite his discomfort, he tries to marshal everyone under one roof, and that often results in a degree of my-way-or-the-highway type rigidity as a means of neurotically trying to keep everyone safe.
Both Cas and Jack, and to a lesser degree Sam (Hell trials), get caught in that specific internal war. In fact, Cas often avoids this dilemma altogether by going lone wolf. Jack has the same issue in AU earth when he tries to run away to confront Michael on his own.
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When the fights get too big (as they often do in Supernatural), Dean freaks the fuck out and cannot control the safety of his loved ones. So you get these coping mechanisms:
Benching the player: "Wait, you might get hurt, so I'm gonna communicate that I don’t trust you to be in that fight at all." Sometimes, this need to kick people to the bench comes out as a barb: "You’re an incompetent baby who does stupid things. You’re an idiot. You're 98 pounds soaking wet." etc etc.
Denial: Sometimes, this is the time-honored, "I'm powerless / this whole fight is meaningless / there's nothing we can do / we have no choice." Other times, it's downplaying the danger, resulting in neglect.
When Dean can neither protect nor stop family/comrades from going into danger, these options are his best hope for safety. There are so many deliciously terrible options. With regards to Cas, we see an even more colorful option deployed: goading him into being stronger. "You can do it."
SAM: Tell me again why you don't just grab Adam and shazam the Hell out of there.
CAS: Because there are at least five angels in there.
DEAN: So? You're fast.
CAS: They're faster.
(CAS takes off his tie and wraps it around his palm. Dean looks on worriedly.)
In early days, Dean is incredibly spun out and confused by Cas, who he wants to be protected by and protect. In the beginning, in season 4, he's still thinking of Cas as invincible.
Post-Cas's first death, Dean tries to pin him down as brother, and at times he even infantilizes Cas as he evolves into needing to protect him. But bottom line, he just can't make Cas FIT. He's a comrade, but there's extra layers to their relationship that get confusing real fast. We get these Dean coping mechanisms in seasons 5-6 alone!
(A) Goad him into being more powerful and better so he's safe
(B) insult him to underscore that he's in danger and maybe shouldn't be fighting at all
(C) go full denial and pretend the situation isn’t that serious
I think in season 8, Dean figures out what those extra layers are, and in season 9, they deal with rejecting each other by accident, and in season 10, they’re respectively dealing with their past traumas and baggage. Then, in seasons 11-12, they're grappling with the whole embarrassing and terrifying fiasco of wanting to commit to each other.
But to my point about cosmic family members, there’s this simmering tension concerning the danger of celestial power running throughout.
"Dude you’re kinda scary and I instinctually know this because I’m a seasoned hunter. But I’m gonna keep ignoring that gut instinct because reasons."
And confusingly, there's also this feeling:
"I can’t really protect myself from you, since you’re stronger than me. And I'm not strong enough to protect you from your enemies...or stop you from leaving.
See this, from season 8:
CAS: See, it wasn't that I was weak. I was stronger than you. I pulled away. Nothing you could have done would have saved me, because I didn't want to be saved.
DEAN (distraught): What the Hell are you talking about?
Dean was SO upset that Cas let go. That he didn't even try. (Dean and Cas often give up, but they become unhinged if the other partner gives up.) For someone like Dean, whose instinct is to squirrel away his family in a protective underground bunker? That’s a tension that feels devastating.
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As a main character/battle commander, Dean knows that tactically, Jack and Cas will take on big, scary responsibilities by virtue of being, as season 15's Belphegor so eloquently puts it, “the muscle."
...and this is in direct conflict with Dean's baseline need to protect everyone.
He doesn’t want to gamble with them at all. He wants to say, “you’re more than a weapon,” (13x14 Good Intentions script) and Cas wants to tell him, “in times of peace, I can be.”
DEAN: Cas, you're more than a weapon--
CAS: In times of peace I can be, but if (war) is coming...
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TFW and the burden of leading
This, at times, makes Dean a rigid, unhinged leader. That's because he’s too often sending his own fam into battle. And who wouldn’t be unhinged about that? There’s a reason we don’t operate on our own family members in a medical setting, for example. When Dean is a leader, he can be like a dog with rabies foaming at the mouth, backed into a corner. It’s the worst.
Sam, on the other hand, fares pretty well as a leader, because he values independence so highly, and that kinda works for him. (He's pragmatic and he dissociates very effectively.)
Mary is interesting. She defaults to leader a lot. In Stuck in the Middle (with You), Mary becomes the go-to leader of the group. Mary was part of an extensive hunting family, so being that kind of family-commander comes more naturally to her. When she fails to protect Cas in 12x12 though… Dean wonders why he yielded to her authority at all, and the vicious cycle begins anew.
And Cas as a leader? Cas is an extraordinarily capable leader, but when paired with his human family, he'd rather skulk around trying to protect them or keep them out of harm's way. He will sidestep the whole fucking issue and just…not involve his family at all.
I’m not sure which coping mechanism is worse.
Dean has saved Cas’s life and can hold his own in a fight, and yet Cas accidentally infantilizes him by wanting to bring home a win for you and myself instead of trying to win together. Cas got super spooked by season 10-11 Dean's Mark of Cain and Amara soul-bomb, so he digs his heels in on keeping them out of it. You can see that in this conversation in 12x19 The Future:
CAS: I know. I wanted to keep you out of this. I-I was trying to keep you safe.
DEAN: You're not our babysitter, Cas, okay? That is not your job. And when in our whole lives have we been safe?
And Jack as a leader on AU Earth? Although brand new, we see that he is prone to impatience, and hubris. After his arrogance bites him in the ass, he too turns to lone wolf desperation as he tries to sneak off in 13x22 to battle AU Michael on his own.
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Dean & Cas and protectorship
As they tackle their relationship power struggles, at some point Dean actually accepts Cas as protector and that it’s actually a kindness to let Cas protect him. Despite Cas dying against Lucifer, Dean is really trying to navigate this dynamic of their relationship with grace (13x19 Funeralia):
Dean: Cas, you wanna try this angel thing, then go for it. Just don’t get dead again.
You can see again that he’s aware of this protectorship dynamic with this line in 15x18 Despair, too: “She's gonna kill you, and then she's gonna kill me.”
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As the series progresses, despite some serious hardships, Deam resolves to tolerate their structural dynamic, knowing it comes from a place of love, not distrust. (I’m not saying it solved their issues, but Dean does appear to grudgingly accept Cas’s relationship role with respect to him, at least on some level.)
But!
As Dean sort of unwittingly accepts this dynamic between himself and Cas, he accidentally assigns that same weight to Jack as extension of Cas.
Over time, Jack also becomes extension of Dean--a hero. And heroes do heroic sacrifice. This is what underlies Dean's ability to sunder Jack as family. Dean, after all, sunders the importance of his own hopes and dreams in order to protect the dreams of others.
Stripping the family label from Jack solves the warring, “you’re stronger than me and therefore MY protector and savior,” but “you’re my kid and it’s MY job to protect you” problem.
Dean realizes his mistake when it’s too late. Dean never got to reckon with Jack being dehumanized holy son and the archetypal child soldier, and so SPN as a series remains unresolved.
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A closer look at Jack as extension of Dean
So anyway, we see Dean put himself in a Ma'lak box, so naturally he puts Jack in a Ma'lak box, too.
Dean is often willing to kill himself, because he’s inherently worthless and leans toward self-annihilation, ergo Jack is also worthless and can be used as a battering ram-slash-blunt instrument.
It’s no accident we see Jack burst through a door with Dean in Last Holiday AND again with Cas in Gimme Shelter. It’s about that narrative extension of self to child. (They both fall prey to that way of thinking, as we saw in the 15x12 conversation re:Jack fulfilling Revenge and some Big Cosmic Destiny.)
Dean combats his self-worthlessness by doing important tasks. If he's "the guy who saves the world," and "the guy who killed Hitler," then how he's lived and what he's done matters.
It's not quite the same as Cas's tendency towards another cosmic grandiosity, but it IS similar.
Dean is attracted to performing great deeds, big and small, and Cas is attracted to serving great causes. We see Dean put the great deeds part of his Burden on Jack in the back end of season 15. To combat Jack's crime of killing Mary and to resolve the tension of getting to have Jack back, he now convinces himself that it's all okay and allowed, because Jack is going to save the world.
Also there's this pesky "my child will do what I could not" undercurrent: Dean was ineffectual and powerless against God, but Jack is strong enough to realize that dream of defeating him and gaining freedom for everyone. The ultimate hero.
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Jack as Love, as holy cause, and as extension of Cas
Cas, on the other hand, at his worst leans towards a different kind of authoritarian idealism, so he puts Jack on a pedestal and overestimates his importance from the very beginning.
“I thought I was more important than I actually was,” is a thing Cas said on the actual show. I think it’s relevant, because he also overestimates Jack's (cosmic) importance. To resolve the tension of getting to have Jack and stay on Earth with his human family, he assigns Jack a Greater Purpose. That way, Cas can pretend he's solely motivated by the Great Cause, instead of facing up to being motivated by love and selfishness.
Aside// Cas even treats his love this way. His love becomes another tactic to be used in the fight, because love is more comfortable to him as a Tool in his Arsenal than it is as something to cherish. He's not allowed to have it, because he's committed too many crimes in his military career to even deserve it.
(It’s no accident he gets that flower for Dean in purgatory and proceeds to brutally crush it for a spell.) At worst, Cas approaches his love in a dehumanizing way. It’s a thing he’s not allowed to have unless he’s serving a grand cause to counterbalance his unworthiness of having it.
I imagine his thought process is tumultuous. "You want free will, Cas? Hypocrite, you stole the Novaks’ life, so you’re not allowed that. You want to live on earth? Hypocrite! You helped Heaven collect angels and killed their Nephilim."
This shame is always on his mind, especially after he starts raising Jack. He tells Jody in season 15: “I took Claire’s parent.” Seeing Belphegor possess Jack really hammered that shame home for him, I'd expect, once he had a moment to meditate on the matter.
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Cas loves Jack, but Jack is a good excuse
When Jack was born, and when his powers seemed to be hurtling them towards Paradise, Cas suddenly had the Perfect Cause. (However, we see in the 12x19 script that he was actually thinking of his own human family's happiness.) Nevertheless, with a cause like that, Cas definitely had a good excuse to stay on earth and see it through.
And since he needed to be on Earth to raise Jack, he had a great excuse to bed down with his human family. Suddenly, there was a smokescreen for his desires. Suddenly, he had another holy cause to hide behind.
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He allowed himself to partake, but he didn't wanna take too much. "Be frugal, Cas. Only take the bare minimum."
IMHO, the shame surrounding Dean and Cas with respect to their relationship is about way more than being afraid of each other's feelings. There's this big, “you don't deserve to get what you want” built into the very fiber of their beings.
I posit that Cas knows Dean feels something; it's why they stay together. They're being as "together" as what they think the universe will allow. There’s a tragic Asceticism to the whole dynamic of Cas existing on earth within a human family, and that's WAY more fascinating to me than the simple business of requited/unrequited “love confessions.”
So yes, I'm sure Cas loves Jack, but Jack was at first a wonderful excuse for Cas to be part of the family and counterbalance his cosmic guilt for wanting to be part of the family in the first place.
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Jack as the antidote for "Godstiel's" failed Destiny
Finally, we come to Castiel's tragic war with Destiny versus the Hope for the Future.
Back in season 6, Cas slowly became a corrupt and petty God, despite his best intentions and starting out on neutral footing. Furthermore, he was incapable of containing all that power.
But Jack is fundamentally Good in Cas's eyes, and he can surely wield that great destiny successfully on account of his Goodness.
Fandom forgets that it’s Cas who set the family tone and expectation for preparing Jack for battle in season 15, by letting him eat hearts to strengthen his body.
But like Chuck believed Lucifer so beautiful and good as to be resistant to the mark from Amara, so Cas too assumes that Jack is uncorruptable, perpetuating the God-like burdens of his own family.
My spiciest take is I do think you could take Demon Dean’s comments about running away, liking the disease, you humans actually much worse/evil than me morally, you’re nearly killing me to bring back my human weakness and stamping out my unfeeling “strength,” imprisonment, etc and shove it into the mouth of vintage Sammy and a whole lot of it would mostly work.
Dean took on the mark to be stronger, and he liked being without pain and weakness. Dean’s early “moral code” was prone to moral rigidity (especially when stressed out) and black-and-white rules (parallels Cas).
Early Sam took in demon blood to be stronger. He was was objectively “more moral” re: saving human vessels than human hunters often were. Vintage Sam was prone to spiraling about moral relativism to the point of neuroses.
I think there is a tendency to minimize what Bobby and Dean did to Sam because it’s uncomfortable. But it’s as real and true to me as Sam not taking responsibility for his own behavior sometimes. And I think their problem-solving behavior affected his later problem-solving behavior. (He mimicked it to the point of extremes.)
They have different psychological signatures and motivations. But the parallels are there.
Both brothers go full corrupt with good intentions, and in both cases the trap of heroism terminates in the loss of self and inhibitions. (MOC Dean was ready to die and Sam was ready to die re: Lucifer and Hell trials.) I think addiction and disinhibition is the stronger analogy in both cases. The self-medication is a trap. Neither "addiction" represents a true self in my book so much as it represents "checking out" of humanity.
In a very real sense, MOC is like alcohol, blackout drinking, rages, and loss of memory. “Comfortable numbing.” (An early-days John-coded secondary psychopathy.)
For Sam, his drug reminds me of super-soldier type drugs, and his method of saving of ppl analogous in my head to him overpowering them without weapons/guns in a combat zone. It’s an unsustainable, dangerous approach with more personal risk. (In particular, his soulless stent makes me think of Pervitin, which can cause heart failure in the end.)
