TALK
https://www.tumblr.com/yuzuj3lly/820725212795584512/religion-doesnt-go-with-shifting-and-thats-a?source=share
Im glad OP is defending many shifters from harassment and this hate train, but I do think that some takes are problematic in this context. First of all the take that religion isn’t sexist and how “men and women are equal but have different roles that change over time as the world changes” that is still sexism. It’s still creating a binary that forces the genders into two different categories. The “separate but equal” argument will never truly work. It still enforces that the genders are opposite of each other(which is oppositional sexism and promotes patriarchal power.) Many women who have left these religions have spoken up about the misogyny within them. Even if the roles “change” over time it’s still saying that at the end of the day their fundamentally different and it’s okay to assign human beings different roles based on their biology, which is not in accordance with liberation from patriarchy and gender roles. It still has gender roles but sweeps it into this perfect rose coloured glass view that “everyone has different jobs but is equal” and can quickly just spin back into gender roles and benevolent patriarchy. Yes I know you said the roles evolve but the problem is the “different roles” that is inherently problematic.
No one should be assigned roles because of their biology. That is patriarchy.It’s fairly problematic to cherry pick certain verses when as someone who has read the Bible and Quran there have literally been sexist verses found in them. Yes historical context matters but these verses have been used to oppress women for centuries, particularly regarding the yBible some groups of Christian’s still use those words to oppress women today. But saying that these religions that have strict gender roles written into them aren’t sexist, especially when they’re often applied today isn’t the best statement to make. Religion should evolve with the people and scriptures such as these should be let go off. Because these are clearly patriarchal and also they need to admit that these religions that everyone’s so adamant on defending were created in patriarchal structures. They have patriarchy baked into them yes because of the time but also they can still be used to apply to today. Then also the homophobia as well. These religions are homophobic and have made it clear about what they think about homosexual people. They are verses that are straight out there that can be read. And “don’t take it literally” when there’s literally an exact verse that literally condemns it? Not analyzing and breaking down homophobia in religions isn’t beneficial towards queer liberation.
Yes I know you can come at me with various different interpretations of the story(I know the arguments and interpretations, trust me I’ve read them and I have researched deep into them before) it still doesn’t change that those are what is presently within those religious texts and is still used to harm the material conditions of queer people around the world. These are religions that at the end of the day should be critiqued.
Yes I know what you will say. Islam in particular is already critiqued and it has been for decades and I agree with you that yes criticizing Islam is often used as a guise for Islamophobia and often can result in manufactured consent which results in what we see in modern day, the destruction of various different Muslim countries.
Pinkwashing is one of the worst tools that the imperialist west has invented. I do that that there should be space in leftist spaces where people especially people who have bad experiences with religion and also genuinely do believe that it is misogynistic and homophobic to be able to talk about why they do believe this and why it is… and honestly given the verses it truly seems like it.
Yes there’s arguments that it is the Hadiths that has most of the sexist stuff and that’s true, I understand that, but a religion that still assigns roles based on gender even if times change and those roles change is still participating in oppositional sexism which at the end of the day is detrimental to a movement truly dedicated to patriarchal liberation and the erasure of assigning gender roles to people in a society.
But yes we do know that the west doesn’t care about the right of the marginalized otherwise they would’ve spoken up about Saudi Arabia a long time ago.) Religion genuinely does need to let go of those scriptures that are misogynistic and homophobic entirely and evolve from that. If religious people truly want religion to be respected in modern day then it needs a reconstruction.
It is not a perfect static thing. It is incredibly imperfect and has interpretations and is written by imperfect people. People need to understand and realize that. The people of the past weren’t perfect and yes they did make mistakes they are misogynistic and homophobic and also believed in certain practices that are terrible today such as slavery. Then regarding what you said about “any religious person will tell you God created these infinite realities it’s common sense” that may be true for them and maybe for you.
But it’s not true for everyone. Peoples beliefs cannot affect each other. If someone believes God doesn’t exist then they don’t, many shifters on Shiftblr have made good posts respecting religion, and there’s recent good ones you can go and read. But your claim is false as a universal truth. It is not true. If that is their belief then that is fine but that is not what other people think. Some people believe religion is false and can never be tied into shifting and that’s fine as long as that’s their perspective and don’t force it on anyone and vice versa people believe shifting is spiritual/religious and spirituality and religion is inherently tied into shifting and that’s their perspective. But it’s not true for everyone because everyone experiences different realities, infinite realities.
You can’t say that one sole thing created the multiverse when no one knows the multiverses beginning middle or end. Yes some religions do talk about the concept of the multiverse. But think of infinite realities. Infinite realities where no such concept of these religions exist. Infinite realities where everyone’s atheist. What about a reality where the universe was created just poof from thin air? Thats why you truly cannot apply these reality’s views and beliefs onto the entire multiverse it just won’t work for everyone cause it’s not universal, God is only real if someone believes God to be and that only exists in their reality. God doesn’t exist in an atheists reality.
And if your saying it as common sense especially, that’s also disrespectful to atheists and even people of other certain non-atheist beliefs. People do have a right to dislike religion and not respect it, I do agree that harassing people is wrong and what happened to you was wrong. You shouldn’t have been harassed for your beliefs and neither should have religious shifters in the community like what happened with the Muslim girl that you defended who received that disrespectful anon ask when she didn’t do anything wrong simply just was a part of a religion that a random anon didn’t like.
I will never endorse Islamophobia nor hatred to someone and persecution of that person simply because of their religion and I support liberation for the people in Muslim majority countries and hope that the west stops their western imperialism. I also do hope that these countries have better treatment of women and queer people. If you wish to support religion and believe in it that’s fine but do not cherry pick certain verses nor act like these verses are certain metaphors, when many people including myself do know that there is essentialism baked into this. Which is why I did suggest a reconstruction and sort of “revolutionized” form of religion which gets rid of all these things if religion is truly to thrive in the modern day and many people are wary of religion.
And rightfully so given by how it has been used historically to oppress people, which cannot be denied. It literally has been used to oppress people and has been forced onto others, Christianity and Islam, and yes people of now Muslim nations have said that yes Islam wasn’t spread as peacefully in their countries, and some of those practices were enforced on the people.The abrahamic religions in general just don’t have the best reputation given a lot of their history and peoples religious and cultural trauma should be respected as well. And we need to have room to critique this in constructive and respectful manners but we cannot just sweep this under the rug as well and just cherry pick verses we like and ignore history. That isn’t going to help anyone. Yes I saw the verses that you did give and yes they exist. But so do others and we have to acknowledge that as well. Actual constructive of religions is not being bigoted, though regarding Islamophobia yes I am aware that is a slippery slope. I still think that no one has to like or respect religions that they don’t want to, as long as they don’t harass anyone nor incite hatred. And I cannot blame queer people and women especially for being wary. If they just share their views and opinions and reasons why they don’t like the religion(after getting educated and know what they’re talking about) then I don’t see the problem. But yeah those are my main critiques of what you said. And in the leftist community, particularly the Marxist community, I agree yes there is Islamophobia but I don’t think there should be two distinct sides of “Islamophobia is good” and “no one should ever critique Islam EVER cause Islamophobia exists” … that is not really constructive towards any meaningful analyzing, deconstruction, or constructive debate regarding Islam. And yes I do understand and know that the west uses pinkwashing as an excuse to bomb the global south and destroy it and what is ultimately detrimental to queer people in these countries is western imperialism and yes I support their struggles for liberation within their own country. But yeah. There are some things that are literally right there in the face no metaphor no allegory no simile regarding things that religion says. And that needs to be acknowledged and not cherry picked. This is something that needs to be constructively debated. Yes this was rather long, and I’m glad it was cause everyone was just posting short few sentences or two paragraphs not going into any actual depth about this entire concept.
@yuzuj3lly
