wonder how much of the "I'm the good brother" "I'm the bad brother" has to do with how shielded Stefan was as a child, letting him grow up to be empathetic and kind and with Damon being the scapegoat and growing up being told he's selfish and all sharp edges. Honestly I wish TVD did a wholeeee lot more with their relationship with Guiseppe and Lily
In the flashbacks of them being human, Stefan is still trying to adhere to Giuseppes' humanity and thinking that he can reason with him, and this is long after Lily died
It stands to reason Damon kept being a scapegoat and a shield for Stefan long after Lily died, especially as despite him being softer and more willing to believe in love as a human, the sharp edges were forming and were prominent where their father was concerned and he begged Stefan to not go to him when trying to protect Katherine but Stefan didn't listen
Stefan, as both a human and a vampire, has this,,,, naivety that is encouraged by everyone around them especially in contrast to Damon
Stefan could not control his bloodlust and kept shoving it down over and over again and his friends (Lexi, Elena, etc) encouraged it but Damon gets painted as the Bad Guy [the bad brother] because he keeps trying to get Stefan to learn control
imho Stefan is far more dangerous than Damon. Damon has control over his vampirism. He makes bad choices, but he is in control. Stefan keeps trying to make good choices, to be the "good brother" but it creates a cycle of binge eating and inability to control himself that leads him on massacre after massacre
idk idk idk their relationship is *so* interesting to me and I wish we got even more details of their childhood than we did
Hi! Tell us why you prefer Delena to Stelena :) I do too but have trouble justifying it.
Spill the tea on Stelena and why you prefer Delena - asked by anonymous
Sorry for such late answers! I was moving flats which has been stressful af. Anyways.
I feel like I’ve been waiting for this question since 2012. Now beware this is going to be quite and extremely Stefan/Stelena negative, but considering this show hasn’t been relevant for years there shouldn’t be any ship wars hopefully. Let’s go.
First of all, in order to discuss the ships, we need to look into the characters of Stefan and Damon separately. Now naturally which brother you prefer with Elena depends greatly which character you prefer. For me that has always been Damon for various reasons. Personalities and actor portrayal aside, a lot of that comes from the way they are portrayed within the narrative. One thing I need to make clear is that I believe both Stefan and Damon are quite problematic characters who have done a lot of immoral things before and throughout the show’s run. But within the narrative of the show one of them is portrayed as a literal saint that has rainbows shining out of his arsehole and the other has devil horns attached to him (Stefan and Damon respectively).
While Damon has done a lot of horrible things, the show and the characters held him responsible for every single one of them. More importantly, he himself acknowledges he’s not a good person and actually makes an effort to change (later seasons of the show demonize him but I’m putting the blame for that on shitty writing). Stefan, however, spends the whole show believing he is a precious innocent cupcake and blames all of his bad actions on his ripper side which he claims is a separate entity while in reality, the reason ripper exists is because he has never learned to control his bloodlust properly. Why is that? Because he’s not strong-willed enough to actually work on himself and is entirely too comfortable to blame everyone else for his mishaps.
I could dwell into comparisions more but that would distract me from the main topic here which is their respective relationships with Elena (so some comparisions will be made regardless). Let’s get into that, shall we?
First of all, let’s look at both relationships on the surface. Stelena might look cute on that aspect with their kisses, flowers, date nights and grand gestures while Delena start out as antagonistic opposing sides of the conflict. But that’s just it - Stelena has no real connection because their relationship was built on a lie. Yes, he rescued her from the car crash but then spent months stalking her, learning things about her and then deliberately placing himself in her life because he couldn’t help himself, knowing fully well the danger he would be placing her in. I’ll go as far as saying that he used her fragile mental depressed state to his advantage cause had Elena still had her parents and her life together, she wouldn’t have noticed Stefan probably. She even stated in 3x16 and 3x22 that the reason she fell for him that deeply was because he came into her life when she needed someone. That someone could’ve been anyone. He doesn’t tell about the whole Katherine ordeal or that he knew she was adopted till it was convenient for him. Hell, he only revealed himself as vampire because Elena figured it out first. I’ll come back to honesty in their relationship later.
Now with Damon, yes, he starts the series as the antagonist and to a degree he uses Elena in his rivalry with Stefan but underneath that, you can see a genuine connection. More importantly, Elena knew who Damon was, she saw the real him before she could gain any romantic feelings towards him and once she did, she fell in love with the real him, not some fabricated version of him he created for her.
Another aspect is their treatment and communication with Elena and the whole ‘choice’ debate. In my humble opinion, the whole ‘Stefan respects Elena’s choices’ thing is complete crap farce bullshit. Not pouring someone alcohol when they say they don’t drink is respecting their choice. Letting someone die because you’re scared to get in their bad books is not respecting their choice, it’s just that. Stefan’s been too afraid to get into a fight with Elena or get on her bad side to ever challenge her choices, even when she’s been showcasing outright suicidal tendencies (why does no one in supernatural shows suggest for people who are clearly depressed and suicidal to go to a therapist? Come on) because he can’t handle her being mad at him cause he needs her by his side. Damon on the other hand is not afraid to challenge Elena or make choices she’s not going to like, sometimes at the expense of her hating him for a period of time. Granted some choices he makes aren’t the best but at least he didn’t stand idly by with his eyes closed and let Klaus take Elena (sorry, was that shady?). I mean, their only fight I can recall was in 2x14 cause they never voiced issues that bothered them. That’s not a healthy relationship.
An important thing to look at is Damon’s and Stefan’s attitude in terms of their moral compass when it comes to Elena. Yes, both of them kind of cling on to Elena in order to better themselves and go off the rails when they lose hope to be with her (something I can’t excuse even for Damon). But in the earlier seasons when the writing wasn’t as faulty, Damon has been to do selfless things for people besides Elena without notifying her, expecting no reward apart from slowly, reluctantly but steadily bettering himself. Stefan, however, has outright said that there’s no point in being good if he’s not with Elena, which makes one think that he considers her a prize for good behaviour (harsh but no other way to word it). Another person can’t be an anchor for your emotions, it doesn’t work that way. Which brings me to the next point.
Their attitude towards Elena when she becomes a vampire. Stefan automatically assumes the training on her to make sure she adapts to being a vampire exactly the same way he did, despite that way being super unhealthy and ineffective as proven. In my humble opinion, that is because Stefan always had an idolized version of Elena in his mind (anti-Katherine so to say) and her being a vampire just didn’t cut it, hence why he hoped that if he adapted her to his way of existance he could pretend things are the same as they were. While Damon arguably identified with a part of Elena that had darkness in it, one thing is for sure - he always accepted her for who she was, no matter what she did. I’m pretty sure they adress this in 4x05 but it’s been ages since I watched the show so I’m quite rusty.
I was going to talk some more but I realized a lot of it would be me repeating myself. But one more thing that I wanted to mention is that, as I said, a lot of my dislike was down to Stelena’s portrayal as this ‘epic love’ within the narrative even years after the ship died and refusal to acknowledge any problems within the ships that existed while demonizing Delena, however Delena meta is a question for another time.
All in all, while I’m rewatching shows, such as BTVS, a lot of my opinions are changing but no matter how many times I’d watch this show, this is one thing that’s never gonna and Stelena will always be one of my biggest NOTPs (I’m not even sure of the whole list as I more focus on pairings I love but they’re definitely in the Top 5).
Chillllls Nisha! I even had to agree with Alaric's 'No offense but you're unwanted.' Damon's gonna have to do much more than flowers and a short apology. Ugh, the way he stumbled over his words like a little boy. Reminds me of that scene when he approached her at a rave cautiously after she came back from the other side. How much they care is obvious by how super emotional they are whenever they reunite from being separated.(gif of that pwease?)
Oh I’m sorry, I hated Alaric’s little spiel to him at the end. The narrative is really hammering home this idea that not only does Damon feel himself to be a screw-up, everyone else must also feel that way, and tell him, as often as possible.
JP mentioned on twitter that Damon fans can sometimes be Damon apologists, and that he needs to acknowledge the harm he has caused in the world.
And while I do think that’s true on many levels, I also don’t think it’s that revolutionary for this show? Damon has been shown again and again to be aware of the wrongness of his actions. Acknowledging that isn’t a breakthrough. What would actually be a step forward would be for him to acknowledge that he isn’t tethered to that identity. That he’s capable of better.
And the constant barrage of “You fuck up everything and my life is better when you’re not in it” by almost everyone he loves really does not put him any closer to that progress.
Anyway. I know that’s not what you meant, sorry. And it’s certainly not what your ask was about!! I just have some pent up feelings about it. Sorry!!
Oh, and I totally made a gifset like that :D You can see it HERE. Hope it’s what you had in mind!
... how so much of the fandom and so MANY OF THE REVIEWERS seem to have completely forgotten what we watched play out in 7x14. “It all ends tomorrow. You’ll never have to worry about me again.”
HOW do they go from that to just taking him at his word that he’s removing himself from the game because he’s selfish, he misses Elena, etc?
THIS ENTIRE SEASON has been hammering into Damon’s head this notion that he’s not just a fuck up, but a fuck up that is constantly putting his loved ones in danger, just by his mere presence.
Lily convincing him to send Elena’s coffin away, because as long as he selfishly keeps her physically close, she’s in danger.
The Phoenix Stone, convincing him that he ruins every good thing because he’s a monster at heart.
Stefan, blaming him for Rayna getting the sword that got him stabbed/marked and telling him to just stop helping because he’s only going to make things worse.
Valerie, saying essentially the same thing, that he needs to stop trying to save Stefan because he’s only going to ruin things more.
Caroline, making Bonnie promise not to let Damon “screw things up” when they go to the Armory.
Tyler, reinforcing that as long as Damon is in the picture, these good selfless people he loves will sacrifice themselves over and over again until they’re all dead.
And then when he sees what happened to Bonnie in 7x14, he finally takes it all to heart to the point of formulating this plan where he a. handles the Rayna business as best he can (which originally meant killing her, then corralling her when it became clear killing her wasn’t an option), and b. convinces the others that he’s desiccating for selfish Elena-centric reasons since they won’t question that and try to stop him.
And now that we see that play out, everybody and their mother’s brother’s cousin’s dog suddenly crawls out of the woodwork to moan “DAMON IS SO SELFISHHHH HE RUINS EVERYTHING HE JUST WANTS TO BE WITH ELENA HE DOESNT LOVE STEFAN AND BONNIEEEE”
likeeeeeeee were you paying attention??? to any????thing???
This point in the narrative is so huge for both Damon’s individual development and for Bamon’s, and it’s blowing my mind that it’s getting glossed over by so many people, even very Bamon/Bonnie/Damon-friendly people.
Not to mention the irony of his fledgling attempts at selflessness causing the audience at large to label him MOST SELFISH MONSTROUS CREATURE EVER is killing me.
Don’t get it twisted... As painful and misguided as it is, and as much as I never want to see Bonnie hurt like that, in terms of intentions alone this was one of the most selfless things Damon’s done.
Everything that’s happened this season has reinforced his preexisting notions that he ruins every good thing he touches, that he doesn’t deserve good things, that when good people love him they will get hurt.
That speech at Bonnie’s bedside was the only time in all this that he was 100% honest about his motivations for desiccating. Because that was the only time that there was no one around to hear him, so he didn’t have to lie.
And yes, he absolutely was lying in both (all?) of his letters. Because in Damon’s opinion, he’s no hero. If presented with a situation where he could protect his loved ones but be hated by them, vs. be admired by them while leaving them vulnerable, he will choose the former every single time. And that’s exactly what he’s done.
With Stefan, he said that he’s a bad brother and a danger to society without Elena, knowing that Stefan will feel betrayed. With Ric, he directly refuted all that, admitting he was lying to his brother... and instead spins an even more selfish yarn about having been too miserable without Elena to stand living another moment without her.
Anyone paying attention to anything happening in the past dozen episodes knows that this isn’t true. He’s telling them what he thinks they will believe/accept.
He knows that being honest about his selfless intentions would a. be uncomfortable, and b. open the door for them to try to stop him (as they very obviously would.) But this way, he’s the same old Damon, making selfish choices for Elena and they’re free to resent him for the way those choices affect them while (supposedly) being safe and sound.
I’m not saying it’s sound logic, or that he’s right to invoke a lifetime of abandonment issues in some misguided attempt to protect Bonnie from himself. But I am saying that for once, Damon’s choice is made for the sake of the people he loves, not for himself, and not for Elena... no matter what he writes to them.
Figured I should make my own post, instead of completely hijacking @ihearttvsnark’s, lol. Definitely go and read her review though, it’s spot-on, as usual.
So I was questioning the supposed purpose of the Phoenix Stone too, especially considering every time they discuss it on the show, that premise seems to shift and warp.
First it was a prison, then it was a punishment, then it was them being forced to relive their worst actions, then we saw what it actually does and it doesn’t quite fit any of those definitions... and now the brothers seem to have decided that it’s trying to show them different paths to their true, happy selves, paths that just so happen to align with some of their most deeply ingrained insecurities:
Ever since the very beginning of the series, these are the two almost defining characteristics of the brothers and their dysfunctional good brother/bad brother dichotomy. Damon is the reckless bad brother who ruins things, and Stefan is the saint who gets dragged down by it.
But the show has proven over and over that those good brother/bad brother labels aren’t really grounded in reality. Stefan has a kill list that rivals Damon’s, and his actions are often just as self-destructive too. And Damon on the other hand we’ve come to see is broken and often floundering, but not hopeless, not irredeemable.
I hope that that’s what this storyline is headed towards... towards finally tackling these core themes head-on and completely overturning them, letting the brothers realize the truth about who they are, flaws and strengths both exposed, and then letting them grow from that knowledge.
It would be cool if the Stone actually was trying to teach them how to be reborn as their true, better, happier selves or whatever, and that the trials they’re weathering now are largely symbolic and being wildly misinterpreted by them both, lol.
The hallucination of Damon that Stefan sees is a very specific iteration of Damon’s character, it’s his unhinged “bad brother” side, on crack. Maybe the Stone isn’t trying to convince him to let go of Damon, it’s trying to show him that he has to let go of this definition he has of Damon as this total fuck up who can’t do things right, who will always maliciously drag him down?
And maybe Elena is holding Damon back, but not from becoming a true monster, but instead from realizing that the choice of acting like a monster or not has always been in his own hands, not in the hands of some external moral compass he “wins” and puts up on a pedestal.
They’ve been using these toxic relationship dynamics to define themselves all this time, Stefan desperately clinging to the “good brother” role and Damon desperately clinging to the idea that winning Elena’s love proves he’s worth loving. Maybe the Stone is trying to show them that they have to shed these notions, if they want to grow.
This may be something that everyone else noticed right away, but...
I just realized that in the final Phoenix Stone scene (well the final iteration of the hell puzzle), they essentially had Damon switch places with the deserters he’d massacred. All along, the Stone was trying to get him to empathize with the people he inflicted pain on (makes sense for a magical device that’s meant to punish vampires, right?), to feel what they felt, and to feel accountable for it. This was repeated over and over again by Lily and Stefan when they appeared in his hellscape, out of place, coaxing him to realize that the pain is real, that he should feel it.
And the final iteration where it clicks, Lily’s got him hiding in the cellar of that farmhouse, while she worriedly talks about the soldiers outside who are rounding up deserters. It’s the exact spot that his victims were in.
The Stone’s goal wasn’t really to get Damon to realize he loved/missed/needed Lily, but it did that so that it could exploit that deepest and most vulnerable pain, to make him understand the pain that he had put others through. So that’s why the moment he cracked and felt that pain was the moment of clarity Bonnie needed to pull him out for real.
Part 1) I like bamon and all but could bamon fans please stop blaming Elena for all of Damon's bad behaviour? I feel like people forget the first 3 seasons of the show calling Damon out on his crap and he didn't want to change. I just saw this post criticising Elena for stopping Bonnie from killing Damon. I swear to god Elena get's criticised more for Damon's actions than Damon does himself for his bad behaviour.
Part 2) Just to reclarify - if Elena hadn’t of stopped Bonnie from killing Damon there would be no chance for bamon. She can’t win no matter what. The narrative stopped allowing Elena to call Damon out in the later seasons, because they didn’t view as anything more than Damon’s girlfriend. I’m not an Elena stan, but it just makes me uncomfortable to see her get blamed for the behaviour of 160+ vampire.
I don’t believe that Elena is responsible for Damon’s actions, nor do the vast majority of Bamon fans I know, so I don’t really know what to tell you.
All my metas/interpretations are 100% based on the idea that Damon is culpable for his own actions, which is actually what Bonnie has been telling him all along, ie. “There’s always a choice,” “There’s hope for you,” etc. It’s a HUGE part of why I love Bamon in the first place.
It isn’t Elena’s (or Bonnie’s!) responsibility to hold Damon’s hand and guide him along his path to redemption. The fact that Bonnie’s vocal rejection of the entire “I’m bad because I’m bad because I’m bad” framework is more conducive to Damon feeling empowered to make better choices isn’t a reflection on Elena (or Bonnie!). It’s a reflection on Damon and how he himself wrongly relied on Elena’s love as a symbol of his redemption, rather than respecting her as an entire person in her own right, wholly unconnected to whether or not he’s worth loving/saving.
Elena used to be my favorite character, and I think I am fair to her in my interpretations of canon. I actually have written a good amount of meta about her, which you can find in my elena meta tag, if you’d be interested.
It’s true that there are some folks who say Damon “behaves” better around Bonnie than Elena and that that’s due to weakness on Elena’s part for not “reigning him in” well enough, but that’s few and far between in my experience. I suggest you respond to them directly rather than attributing it to the fandom as a whole.
