#debates with antis

[an-actual-real-live-eevee]

so ghoulvoided blocked me, but there’s a few things I’d like to say.

1. I live in America. I’m not touching other countries. I don’t know enough about them to. I don’t know their laws and I don’t know their issues. I might disagree with their laws if I did, but I don’t.

2. older teens are often sexual. they have sex sometimes. if you say anyone under 18 can’t consent, I’d love to know what you think is happening if two 17 year olds have sex--are they both raping each other? and what about if older teens want to see characters their age being sexual? is that badwrong because it involves porn of underage characters?

3. it’s one thing to say it’s bad to sexualize actual children. I’d agree! I’d also agree it’s bad to sexualize minors in the way older men often do to young girls--i.e. the ‘jailbait is hot’ thing. and I don’t think adults should be looking to date and have sex with minors. but there is a divide between drawings and real life, and most people I know realize that drawing two 16 year olds having sex doesn’t mean you think it’s okay to, as an adult, be sexually interested in a 16 year old. people who can’t make that distinction are not the fault of the people who create things, and drawing two underage characters having sex, or drawing an underage character naked or doing something sexual, isn’t ‘normalizing’ an adult being sexually interested in an underage person. this is a nuanced subject, amazingly, and my opinion and feelings may vary by scenario!

4. also....characters don’t exist, they’re fictional. none of them can consent to anything, at all, because they aren’t real. this would be one of the many reasons I think they’re a little bit of a different case from actual living people.

5. the age at which you become an ‘adult’ is arbitrary. your brain isn’t even finished developing at 18. so why is an 18 year old magically capable of consenting and a 17 year old isn’t? what makes them different except legality? and if you mean only that legally, a 17 year old can’t consent....first, age of consent is different in different places, so....potentially wrong. second, no, some people legally cannot consent to sex. that doesn’t mean that drawing a fictional person who can’t consent doing something sexual is somehow morally wrong. shockingly, drawing an illegal thing doesn’t mean you’ve broken the law.

[an-actual-real-live-eevee]

hey, at that last person who responded to my most recent post

“That's literally child porn though... it's already illegal. How is it wrong to say that pedophilia is gross? Wow.”

ding dong you are wrong

maybe people should stop showing up in ongoing discussions hella late to the party without reading what’s already been said?

it’s illegal to draw porn of minors if the minor is an existing person, or bears extreme resemblance to an existing minor, or if it is an obscene act. shockingly, drawing two 16 year olds having sex when both of them are fictional characters isn’t obscene, and since they’re both fictional, it’s also not illegal! it is legally literally not considered child porn.

oh yeah and also, words have meanings, much as you guys like to pretend they don’t. attraction to children is pedophilia. drawing two fictional characters having sex is not pedophilia, as it has no bearing on attraction whatsoever. you can draw things without it being about attraction, or your personal attraction. more importantly, if the person’s a 20 year old drawing a naked fictional 17 year old because they’re attracted to that character, it still isn’t pedophilia! pedophilia is an adult being attracted to pre-pubescent children. please stop making words useless.

and yes, if a 20 year old went after an actual living 17 year old that would be creepy. because that’s a real person and there’s a real age gap. but drawing something is not remotely the same as preying on an actual breathing human being and art pretty much never translates into actions unless there is something seriously wrong. hell, it doesn’t translate into condoning the thing either! because most people can determine the divide between reality and fiction and know that some things that they can draw or write about aren’t okay IRL. like, people who write about a character getting raped don’t think it’s okay for actual human people to be raped--same thing applies here.

that said, sometimes 20 year olds are briefly sexually attracted to 17 year olds, because that’s how sexual attraction works. see, I’m 20. and I’ve been asked multiple times to show ID so a person can check if I’m an adult and not in high school. because it can be hard to tell how old a person is from a single glance! 20 year olds and 17 year olds don’t often look that different from each other. and human sexuality tends to work in a way that if a 17 year old is pretty and a 20 year old can be attracted to them, they might see that 17 year old on the street and experience brief sexual attraction.

the problem arises when/if the 20 year old is creepy about the attraction (which is a general overall problem, not just a problem in this specific scenario--don’t be creepy about your attraction, people) or learns the other person is 17 and doesn’t back the fuck off. but that’s got nothing to do with art.

anyway, I really wish antis would learn the laws they’re trying to use to defend their bullshit.

[an-actual-real-live-eevee]

@nervousprat

“Of course it doesn't. But drawing naked littlies for any kind of sexual gratification makes the person in question a piece of shit. CSA survivor.“

so, to reiterate some stuff!

I’m a CSA survivor too. you can’t use that to shut me up. ain’t gonna work. thanks for trying, though!

moving on.

I would not consider “older teens” to be “littlies”. you’re talking like they’re little children. they’re not. they are teenagers, 16 and 17, very nearly adults, oftentimes sexual themselves. some of them may draw naked characters their age for sexual gratification! are they also pieces of shit? real curious about this one.

also, not everyone drawing underage characters in sexual situations is drawing it for ‘sexual gratification’....some are drawing it to cope. some are drawing it to practice to poses and use those characters because they happen to be more familiar with drawing those characters in general. there are lots of reasons besides ‘sexual gratification’.

on top of that, I still don’t follow how drawing a fictional character in a sexual situation is bad. like, really, y’all gotta explain this. the person doesn’t exist. no one is being hurt or preyed on by a person drawing a fictional character in a sexual position (assuming that drawing isn’t then posted somewhere that people who don’t want to or shouldn’t see it can see it). 

and most people I know, AGAIN, recognize there is a difference between fictional 16 year olds and actual living 16 year olds. it’s one thing to get off on a porn drawing of a 16 year old character. it’s another entirely to prey on an actual 16 year old. pretty much every single person I know realizes this, and would never prey on actual 16 or 17 year olds. consuming media doesn’t somehow push your brain slowly into “this is okay IRL” as long as you start out already knowing that the thing isn’t okay.

like....you guys seem to really believe fictional characters are people, or something. they’re not. and most people I know recognize that divide between people who do not and never will exist and actual living breathing human beings.

[an-actual-real-live-eevee]

cool but consumation and creation of simulated/draw child porn is still a federal offense and is often used to groom minors. uwu but dont shame people for coping mechs!! these enabling behaviors totally wont evolve into preying on kids!! u know many sex offenders are csa victims too fuck off

hey guess what

shaming people for things leads to them being isolated and convinced they’re a ticking time bomb and it’s just a matter of time until they hurt someone

and then

wait for it

they hurt someone! because they’re isolated and alone and feel like it’ll happen sooner or later, so hey, let’s just get it over with.

so shaming people actually is more likely to cause harm than, I don’t know, letting pedophiles get actual help before they hurt someone. you don’t have to befriend them or get cuddly with them. you just don’t have to tell them they’re a gross disgusting human who’s destined to hurt kids, because that increases the chance of them hurting kids!

and no, I’m not telling you to ENABLE. not shaming doesn’t mean saying the thing’s fine, and this is why I hate Tumblr--y’all got no sense of nuance. there’s not ‘shaming’ and ‘accepting and enabling’. it’s not just those two things and nothing else. it’s not a dichotomy or a binary. you can tell someone the thing’s wrong and the feelings they are having should not be followed through on because they’ll hurt someone without telling them they’re disgusting and should die before they inevitably hurt someone which they definitely will.

and hey, you know what else is used to groom minors? actual porn involving adults. adult magazines containing zero children. visits to amusement parks. new toys. a whole laundry list of things. should we ban those too? I mean, if you want to ban things because they can be used to hurt children, then there are so many things we should be banning!

you aren’t helping csa victims by going on a crusade against artists on Tumblr, or people who write fanfiction. you’re actually hurting a lot more people than you will ever help.

[an-actual-real-live-eevee]

tbh though while in a perfect world drawn porn would be used to prevent pedophiles from harming real children, drawn cp is frequently used by offenders to groom children & is another reason why adults shouldn't be drawing porn of minors & young children shouldn't be sexualized even in art, so you can't really say that drawn cp isn't actually harmful if it's not a real kid. pedophiles take art of kids favorite CHARACTERS to lure children in & that's why even cp of chars harms kids

did I say I agreed with sexualizing YOUNG children or drawing porn of them? no. I didn’t. in fact, you’ll notice if you read through the things I’ve said, I’ve explicitly stated that I’m talking about things drawn of older teens, which are not remotely the same category as young children!

I’m getting very tired of repeating myself for y’all. selective listening much?

and if we’re going to say that drawn art of naked 16 year olds is used to lure in young children, we may as well just ban all porn at that point for the reason that adult porn containing zero underage people, including actual porn of real people, is often used to groom children as well.

it amazes me how you guys latch on so much to 16 and 17 year olds specifically, but then totally ignore the fact that actual adult porn is often used to groom kids too. where’s your outrage about that? why are you not advocating we ban all porn ever, drawn or not? please explain.

[an-actual-real-live-eevee]

Hey, eevee. So I am a victim of abuse and incest, and I have a few OCs I made that were around the same age as me when this was happening to me, and write about them getting abused and how they deal with it. Its really therapeutic for me because it helps me process my feelings and express them properly. I get what youre meaning by unhealthy mechanisms, and thanks for getting that <3 For me its either this, or going on forums to hook up with men for casual sex, which is far more dangerous

I’d like to take a moment to mention something: if a person creates art or writing about OCs or a fictional character going through the same thing they went through and that’s helping them deal or process--that’s a coping mechanism, just like you said, and it’s okay to do that.

and the reason I agree with posting things like that to exist in appropriate spaces--by which I mean, tagged appropriately and not put somewhere people who don’t want to see it will end up seeing it--is because sometimes seeing or reading things about trauma is therapeutic for survivors of things as well. it helps them deal or process.

treating this like it’s dirty and wrong and needs to be hidden? that doesn’t help survivors. actually, that really echoes the idea that survivors themselves are dirty and wrong for what they went through.

it’s not healthy to keep reliving your trauma forever, but sometimes we need to do things that aren’t the healthiest to try and process and deal with trauma. I refuse to agree that that should be shut down.

thanks for sending me this, anon. I hope you’re doing okay, and personally, I’m glad you picked the less dangerous option of the two.

[an-actual-real-live-eevee]

So you're saying that a drawn photo of a child in a revealing situation (no clothes) in a non pornographic matter is used by csa survivors as a form of coping?

I love how antis call 16 year olds children.

I’m not okay with art of, I don’t know, a fictional four year old in a sexual situation. and I’m not okay with art of a, I don’t know, 14 year old in a sexual situation with an 18 year old being shown as an acceptable and good thing.

I am okay with art of a 16 year old in a sexual situation.

I have no issue with that existing.

personally, I’m not super interested in it. but I don’t think it’s the worst thing and needs to cease to exist.

they’re different things! because wow, this is a nuanced issue! and wow, my opinions might be different in different situations! and wow, 16 and 17 year olds are sexual sometimes and not remotely the same as a 10 year old or an actual young child!

but anyway, to answer the question, I wouldn’t consider art of a 16 or 17 year old in a revealing situation child porn. it’s pornography, yes. of a fictional character. not of an actual child, and not of someone who is indistinguishable from a real child. I consider ‘child porn’ to be something that contains a real child or something that contains someone who looks exactly like an actual living child–like if someone draws a sexual picture of an actual living breathing minor, that’s child porn, and it’s not okay.

drawing porn of a fictional character isn’t the same thing and isn’t something I would consider child porn. no actual children are involved.

[an-actual-real-live-eevee]

garbage human being all around, as a csa survivor ive always detested people who defended "well i was abused so it's okay for me to be pedophilic it's a bad coping skill uwu" fucking choke

see, this is exactly what I’m talking about.

first off, I’m not a pedophile, since I’ve....never been attracted to children. words have meanings. defending the existence of art: not pedophilia. looking at drawings to deal with trauma: not pedophilia. being attracted to children: pedophilia. sorry, not on board your ‘this word means what I want it to mean’ train.

second off, I’m a csa survivor too....your opinion is not the end-all, be-all. you are not the determiner of how much people are worth just because you have trauma.

and finally, telling people to die because they don’t share your opinion is super callous and disgusting! I’m not saying it’s okay to look at actual child porn or molest or hurt children. I’m saying that I don’t agree with you that because something could be used to hurt people, or because you don’t like that something exists, that means it should not exist at all. and you think I should die over that. the lack of humanity you’re demonstrating is truly remarkable.