Another Tolkien rant before I (finally!!) go back to BG3:
By and large, heredity and ethnicity in Tolkien cannot be understood through blood quantum logic. I don't think this is even seriously debatable, really—it does not work.
Yes, Imrahil of Dol Amroth is many generations removed from his nearest Elvish ancestor. Yes, he's still visibly part-Silvan to someone like Legolas, and is Silvan-style pretty to everyone else, and his sister was mystically susceptible to Mordor's miasma and died of sea-longing.
Yes, Théoden has as much Númenórean ancestry as Eldacar, a literal Númenórean King of Gondor, and has the same Elvish ancestor as Imrahil. No, Théoden is not a Dúnadan and does not inherit Silvan features. Tolkien specifically contrasted the visible Silvan Elvish heritage of Imrahil and his nephews Boromir and Faramir with Théoden and Éomer's lack of them, though in some versions, Éomer inherited remarkable height from his Númenórean ancestry (but not specifically Elvish qualities like beardlessness).
The only known member of the House of Eorl to markedly inherit the distinctive Elvish appearance of the House of Dol Amroth is Elfwinë, son of Imrahil's daughter Lothíriel as well as of Éomer, and Elfwinë's appearance is attributed firmly to Lothíriel-Imrahil rather than Théodwyn-Morwen.
Aragorn and Denethor are descendants of Elendil removed by dozens of generations, and Elendil himself was many generations removed from Elros. Aragorn and Denethor's common heritage and special status results in a strong resemblance and kinship between these incredibly distant cousins, including innate beardlessness and various powers inherited from Lúthien, and a connection to the Maiar presumably derived from Lúthien's mother Melian (great-great-grandmother of their very distant ancestor Elros).
Galadriel has one Noldo grandparent (half as much Noldorin heritage as Théoden has Númenórean). She has ties to her Telerin and Vanyarin kin and inherits some of their traits (most notably her silvery-gold hair), but she is very fundamentally a Noldo.
Túrin Turambar is a member—and indeed, heir—of the House of Hador via patrilineality. However, he's strongly coded as Bëorian in every other way because of his powerful resemblance to his very Bëorian mother, while his sister Niënor is the reverse, identified strongly with Hadorian women and linked to their father, whom she never met.
Elrond and Elros have more Elvish heritage than anything else, but are defined as half-Elves regardless of choosing mortality or immortality. In The Nature of Middle-earth, Tolkien casually drops the bombshell that Elros's children with his presumably mortal partner also received a choice of mortality vs immortality (and then in true Tolkien style, breezed onto other, less interesting points). Elrond and his sons with fully Elvish Celebrían are referred to as Númenóreans as well as Elves, with Elladan and Elrohir scrupulously excluded from being classed as Elves on multiple occasions. Their sister Arwen, meanwhile, is a half-Elf regardless of how much literal mortal heritage she has but also is identified with the Eldar in a way they never are.
There's a letter that Tolkien received in which a fan asks how Aragorn, a descendant of Fíriel of Gondor, could be considered of pure Númenórean ancestry when Fíriel was a descendant of Eldacar, the "impure" king whose maternal heritage kicked off the Kinstrife. Tolkien's response is essentially a polite eyeroll (and understandably for sure), but it's not like ancestry that remote (or far more so) doesn't regularly linger.
The point, I guess, is that there's no hard and fast rule here that determines "real" ethnicity in Middle-earth or who inherits what narrative identification. It's clearly not dependent on purebloodedness (gross rhetoric anyway, but also can't be reconciled with ... like, anything we see). It's not based on upbringing or culture alone. Túrin and Niënor, for instance, are powerfully identified with the Edain narratively despite their upbringings. Their double cousin Tuor, however, is a more ambiguous figure in terms of the Elves, whom he loves and lives among and possibly even joins in immortality—yet Tuor's half-Elf son Eärendil, whose cultural background is overwhelmingly Elvish, is naturally aligned with Men and only chooses immortality for his wife's sake.
Elladan and Elrohir, as mentioned above, are sons of an Elf, Celebrían, and of Elrond, a half-Elf who chose immortality and established a largely Elvish community at Rivendell. But the twins have a centuries-long affinity with their mortal Dúnadan kin and delay choosing a kindred to be counted among long after Arwen's choice.
Patrilineal heritages are more often than not given priority, which has nothing to do with how much of X blood someone has, only which side it comes from. Queen Morwen's children and descendants are emphatically Rohirrim who don't ping Legolas's Elvishness radar (though Elfwinë might, later on; we're not told). King Eldacar is firmly treated as a Dúnadan with no shortening of lifespan or signs of Northern heritage. Finwë's children and grandchildren are definitionally Noldor.
But this is by no means absolutely the case. The Elvishness of the line of Dol Amroth is not only inherited from Mithrellas, a woman, but passes to some extent to Boromir and Faramir through their mother Finduilas. Denethor and Aragorn's descent from Elros primarily comes through Silmariën, a woman (and also through Rían daughter of Barahir and Morwen daughter of Belecthor for Denethor, and Fíriel daughter of Ondoher for Aragorn). And of course, Elros's part-Maia heritage that lingers among his descendants for thousands of years derives from women, Lúthien and Melian.
So there's not some straightforward system or rule that will tell you when a near or remote ancestor "matters" when it comes to determining a character's identity, either to the character or to how they're handled by the narrative. Sometimes a single grandparent, or great-grandparent, or more distant ancestor, is fundamental to how a character is treated by the story and understands themself. Sometimes a character is so completely identified with one parent that the entire other half of their heritage is negligible to how they're framed by the story and see themself. It depends!
One of the other things that entertains me about Boromir's and Faramir's beardlessness in Nature of Middle-earth is that it's attributed to both Denethor's descent from Elros and Finduilas's from Mithrellas, suggesting (as Christopher Tolkien noted ages ago) that Imrahil would also be beardless.
I was just thinking that I both love this and find it kind of comic that this marker of Elvish descent would persist so long, even accounting for Dúnadan inbreeding. Meanwhile, Théoden isn't beardless, so it's not just about ancestry ... I think it's because he's so assimilated into the Rohirrim, but it's possible that there are (apparently rare) Dúnedain of royal ancestry who just don't inherit it and wake up one morning with three chin hairs. The SHAME.
(Did Eldacar have a beard???)
But there's also a potential reversal, because Éomer and Lothíriel's son looks notably like Imrahil. So the heir to the throne of Rohan could be this smooth-faced black-haired 6'6" young man who is instantly recognizable as part Elvish and is literally named Elfwinë. I love it.
For my anon who asked about the chronology of, and interrelationships between, the children of Aragorn and Arwen / Faramir and Éowyn / Lothíriel and Éomer—
The chronology is here, but briefly, the next generation in order of age: Princess Melyanna -> Elboron of Ithilien and Elfwinë of Rohan -> maybe-Steorrahild of Rohan -> Prince Eldarion, Morwen of Ithilien, and Athelflaed (Aravain) of Rohan -> Princess Telperiën and Glóredhel of Ithilien -> Éadmund and Éadwyn of Rohan, and Cirion of Ithilien.
There are lots of interrelationships, especially between the royal children and Faramir and Éowyn’s children, but here are some of the first to come to mind:
- Glóredhel, as you noted, is bffs with Princess Telperiën, and while not particularly close to Eldarion during their childhoods, knows him and readily consents to marry him. They become friends during their betrothal and fall deeply in love over the first few years of their marriage. (You didn’t ask about intergenerational relationships iirc, but Glóredhel always got on particularly well with Aragorn—as a little girl, she took an immediate liking to him that he found touching, and he was very pleased by her marriage to Eldarion.)
- Morwen is reasonably close to her brother Elboron and sister Glóredhel, but somewhat less to her brother Cirion—less because of his character than because she’s very focused on the here and now and a much-younger brother falls somewhat under her radar. So does her own son, Barahir, after Morwen is devastated by the early death of her husband. Glóredhel and Eldarion take pity on their sister-son and offer to bring him into the royal household with their own children, which Morwen gratefully agrees to. Barahir takes well to it and from an early age, absorbs everything he can learn, especially from Arwen.
- Eldarion tends to be a little more comfortable around girls than boys, though he’s on good terms with friendly, serious-minded Elboron. But he’s closer to his sisters and probably to Morwen, and definitely closer to Aravain (née Athelflaed), the most overtly Dúnadan of Lothíriel and Éomer’s children—so much so that she was fostered in Ithilien, which is what brought them into proximity. She became an extraordinary warrior, a difficult path somewhat smoothed by her aunt Éowyn’s glory, and stayed at Eldarion’s right hand until her death. She was never in love with him, or anyone, but they were devoted friends.
- Melyanna is the eldest of the next-gen characters by several years and, while not exactly standoffish, the most solitary of them. She’s fond in her reserved (though slightly bossy) way of her siblings and (to a lesser extent) the Ithilien children.
- Prince Éadmund, the bookish younger son of Lothíriel and Éomer, rather looked up to his fierce sister Athelflaed until her departure. Afterwards, he became closer to his other siblings, especially his elder brother Elfwinë (a somewhat restrained but gracious, considerate personality), the only other boy, and his twin Éadwyn. He and Aravain maintained an affectionate correspondence, however, and he also corresponds regularly with his cousin Cirion.
- Steorrahild is very middle-child in some ways; she gets on well enough with her siblings and appreciates the concern of her far-flung relations for her welfare, but (even as a shieldmaiden) feels vaguely restless until she ends up in Arnor as the wife of a Dúnadan of the North. She likes being part of the rebuilding effort and, while she misses her family, isn’t particularly devastated by it.
- Éadwyn, also a shieldmaiden, is both more daring and more contented in her life as princess of Rohan. She loves horses and songs, and while not quite as skilled a warrior as Aravain or Elfwinë, is not someone to underestimate. Somewhat unexpectedly, she’s very close to her ultra-Númenórean mother, and eventually, to her scholarly twin Éadmund, though she identifies strongly with her father and Rohan.
So Faramir and Eowyn have 4 children, two daughters and two sons. Their youngest daughter marries Aragorn's son and is best friend with his youngest daughter. Could you share your hc concerning the chronology of each children (Aragorn/Arwen, Faramir/Eowyn, Eomer/Lothiriel) ? If possible the relationship between each others ?
Oh, thanks for the interest! I haven't yet assigned specific dates, so an exact chronology is difficult, but going with the ages required by various plot points and references in my headcanons, this is the basic order:
- Melyanna, daughter of Aragorn and Arwen, born.
- Elboron, son of Faramir and Éowyn, and Elfwinë, son of Éomer and Lothíriel, born at similar times.
- ??Steorrahild (am not 100% set on her name), daughter of Éomer and Lothíriel, born.
- Eldarion and Morwen (daughter of Faramir and Éowyn) are born at similar times, along with Athelflaed (daughter of Éomer and Lothíriel, but fostered in Gondor and more generally known as Aravain).
- Telperiën, daughter of Aragorn and Arwen, and Glóredhel, daughter of Faramir and Éowyn, born.
- Éomer and Lothíriel's twins, Éadmund and Éadwyn, born; Faramir and Éowyn's last child, Cirion, born. He's the baby!
I'll get to you on the interrelationships in a separate post :)
I don’t necessarily imagine Faramir playing the harp (though it would be cool), but there is this vague association in my head between Faramir’s musical proclivities and Dol Amroth’s unsurpassed harpers.
This is by no means canon, just the link my brain made, probably because a) Faramir’s extensive knowledge of music is one of the reasons that people consider him an inferior captain to Boromir in Minas Tirith, and b) Faramir is the nephew and grandson of Princes of Dol Amroth.
My headcanon is that it’s one way in which Faramir actually does take after the Dol Amroth side, and by extension, that the House of Dol Amroth is traditionally into music and/or musical patronage (hence the famous harpers!). So, the end result is that I have this idea in my head that Fourth Age reunions between the members/near kin of the House of Dol Amroth are just these Major Occasions with a) hugs and b) musical numbers.
Tolkien frequently shifted around his ideas about how language was used in Gondor and Rohan, but I wanted to settle my headcanon in my own mind. So, headcanons for the royal house of Rohan + language!
- The language of the Mark/Rohan is called Rohirren in Gondor, but the Rohirrim rarely refer to it by that name. When necessary to name it for some reason, they just call it Markish.
- The “speech of Gondor” used in Thengel’s court was the Common Tongue/Westron (not Sindarin). Most people in Meduseld could speak it already, but some resented giving it priority over Markish.
- Morwen picked up enough Markish to understand it quite well, but was self-conscious about speaking it. She was fully fluent in both Westron and Sindarin, though she more often spoke Westron, especially in Rohan. Mostly she used Sindarin when she wanted to be absolutely sure her husband/children would listen to her. Théoden, Théodwyn, and the other girls grew up with an understanding that Sindarin = serious business.
- Théoden spoke Westron and Sindarin as a child, and learned Markish later on, after Thengel returned to Rohan with Morwen and the children. He always preferred it aesthetically to his native languages (he also preferred it politically, later). But he retained enough Sindarin to use it affectionately with his mother.
- Théodwyn, born and raised in Rohan, knew Markish, Westron, and a good deal of Sindarin (though she found the latter strange and difficult). She and Éomund generally used Markish with each other and their household, but their children were brought up with both Markish and Westron from the cradle.
- Théodred knew Morwen much better than Éomer and Éowyn, and loved her dearly. He took pains to learn Sindarin and almost always addressed her in it.
- Éomer and Éowyn learned some Sindarin in their early days in Meduseld, but it fell into general disuse after Morwen’s death, and in the wake of the following years, they largely forgot it.
- Éomer has no real preference between Westron and Markish and speaks both equally well. He remembers a little Sindarin, picks up some more from Lothíriel, and even more than that in his campaigns with Aragorn and Gondor. He’s still only semi-fluent, but he’s perfectly ready to use it as well as he can when the situation seems appropriate.
- Éowyn also switches between Westron and Markish equally well. At first, she mostly uses Westron in her married life, since she can be sure that everybody understands her that way. She does become fluent in Sindarin; it’s all around her, she has vague memories of it, she’s good with language anyway, and it seems a way of showing respect to both her new people and Morwen, whose legacy she feels much more strongly after her own marriage.
- It does take a little while, so there’s a phase when she makes Faramir stop courteously using Westron with her and instead do dramatic recitations of epics in Sindarin. He makes her do it with Rohan’s epics in return, in part to get a better grasp on the language and partly out of genuine interest, and they’re both super interested in how they both tell the story of Cirion and Eorl. Apart from that one, Éowyn likes the Narn and Eärendil vs Ancalagon best of the Sindarin-language epics, though her favourite Gondor-beloved historical figure is Haleth.
- She also gradually shifts from using Westron to using Sindarin in her letters to Lothíriel, who has a very strong preference for Sindarin and is somewhat at sea in Rohan.
- Elfwinë and his siblings are equally fluent in Westron, Markish, and Sindarin, though each has their own preference. He himself is a lover of lore and also knows some Quenya.
Physically, she bears a strong resemblance to her father and her aunt Finduilas, but differs quite a lot in personality—in particular, she’s much more straightforward and assertive, within the bounds of what she considers proper conduct
She’s bi and aro
She’s proudly Dúnadan and resists assimilation into Eorling norms, instead maintaining Gondorian customs and habits in her personal conduct/court, which doesn’t always go over well
Like several others in her family, she has a vaguely preternatural command over horses that makes her a fearless rider, which does go over well
In the couple of years before LOTR, she was effectively fostered in Minas Tirith with her aunt Ivriniel (who came there with Finduilas and never left) and studied healing with her. Both she and Ivriniel were (reluctantly) among the women and children removed from Minas Tirith before ROTK
She sometimes seems immature and sheltered to Éowyn (bc she is, when they meet), but they become good friends, and help each other adapt to the other’s culture
She’s intensely interested in politics and is very much aware of her role as a political figure, actively forwarding Dol Amroth’s and Rohan’s interests
As queen, she feels somewhat overshadowed by her cousin/predecessor, Morwen of Lossarnach, who seems to have been much more charismatic and assured than Lothíriel feels
She has black hair and grey eyes. Surprise!
She loves stories, but tends to prefer the ones about Gondor or Númenor to the First Age tales
She and Éomer are somewhat wary of each other at first, but become good friends and partners through the years of their marriage, and trust each other implicitly
However, in the earlier years in particular, their children (especially Elfwinë, the oldest) barely know Éomer because of Aragorn’s wars, and for that and other reasons she’s deeply ambivalent about Aragorn himself, though she appreciates his competence and his respectful treatment of her father and her cousin Faramir
She isn’t sure what to think about hobbits
Her favourite brother is Erchirion, who once rode straight from Minas Tirith to Edoras when she got sick and made her laugh
Other than that incident, she’s very healthy and lives well into her nineties
