#endgame speculation

[baneismydragon]

What are your thoughts on any stancy moments before the epilogue? I know I reallyyyy feel like they need at least a singular conversation/heart to heart just to resolve everything. I feel like they’ve consistently been discussing their relationship with outside forces and never with each other and how they actually feel. Also, since there’s clearly larger issues and I feel like nancy 100% needs time before jumping into anything I think their talk (if we get one 🤞🤞) will be relatively platonic and just say everything that simply needs to be said and I feel like this is SOOO important to stancy as a whole because honestly the only way i’ll be disappointed with the ending is if they take the current state of the love triangle right now and leave it as is when half of it is clearly unresolved. Also kind of off topic I feel like there’s little room for a single steve ending just because of how much he’s failed with everyone but nancy and just how devoted he is to her but who knows i’m sure it’ll be well thought out!! Kind of just rambled but I want to know your last theories/predictions for how or if a stancy convo will happen in the last episode since it’s almost 100% neccesary for an epilogue endgame! thanks!

I am going to go against the grain and say I don't think its going to be a big spelled out heart to heart of them telling each other their deepest feelings, because A. there is a lot of big plot stakes that are gonna take priority, and B. we kinda had that in season 4 from Steve already and that isn't what Nancy needs again. What I think we need is two things-

We need Nancy to be confronted with how just like she was hiding behind her trauma bond with Jonathan, she is holding onto her trauma in a very unhealthy way. We need to see (in my opinion) a real acknowledgement that she is finally ready to move away from the chokehold her guilt about Barb has on her. And honestly I think there is a good chance that we will get that. I think this should be in the form of either a Vecna vision or some other story of face the metaphorical monster moment. But this is something that Nancy has to face about herself. SHE has to choose to move away from the trauma and towards a better future, just like we have seen Max and Will do already. Until she does that she will never be in a place to have a real relationship with Steve that would require honesty and vunerability- something she has been avoiding since Barb died.

We need a moment where she opens up to the idea of actually following through on what she says to Jonathan and figuring things out in regards to her feelings about Steve. Steve has already put his cards on the table. He knows who he is and what he wants. Nancy doesn't. I don't think we are going to get a big moment confession moment between the two, I think instead it will be a little moment but a meaningful one. A contrast to what she has come to expect that makes her want to not close that door even as she takes time to allow herself to heal. If I had to guess I think we will get a moment similar to in season 4 when Steve made the point to tell Nancy that he wanted them all (her and Robin and even Jonathan although that is probably off the table now since Jonathan has been an unbelievable douche to Steve for the last year and half from what we have seen) to hang out and be friends. I think that will be far more healing and important to Nancy at this time, that he would put her need to take time to heal herself over his attraction to her. That he WONT immediately be like- Oh be with me! But I also think that there will be something in the same conversation, some offhanded thing he says not because he is trying to impress her but because it just is who Steve is, that will plant the seed that this one could be different. (I also think we will get some more potential flirtation/battle couple/see how great they work together moments as well just to make it clear that YES this is where we are going, but this is the slow burn couple. This was always meant to be the epilogue not the finale. The Finale is them becoming their best selves so that they can then face the world together.)

I agree that I think Single Steve (or more accurately non Stancy Steve) would be narratively very unsatisfying but I also think that is because they have so heavily intertwined Steve and Nancy's growth together and their relationship has become its own metaphor for healing from trauma and finding self-forgiveness.

I for one LIKE when the story tells us that we deserve to forgive ourselves and have a happy ever after, not that we should go off alone and 'find ourselves' when you have characters who already have a strong sense of self. (leave finding himself to Jonathan who NEEDS that.)

[dimples-of-discontent]

PSA: if Misha is, in fact, in the finale (as I believe he will be) they might not show his name in the beginning credits! They frequently do that when character returns are a surprise and they have done their utmost with PR to convince us he’s gone. So don’t expect them to ruin it now with an “and Misha Collins.”

[vividxp]

Re: CR2 Wrapping up

I’m not surprised, I already gave my 3 posts on why it could wrap up soon, and why certain ‘loose ends’ aren’t really a thing (For example, it’s a bizarrely unpopular opinion to think that it’s not necessary to release Uk’otoa and kill him). I am a little surprised that it’s happening sooner than I anticipated. I figured that there was no way that C2 would still be a thing past 2021, but I was guessing that we’d see an end in the fall or winter. 

The discourse is also not surprising. Folks have been debating the endgame and poring over cast and crew statements for months. Sides have been chosen, arguments have been made. A lot of people have a lot of feelings, myself included.

Speaking of my feelings, I do have my theories on why the players may have decided to end things where they are instead of going a little longer. This is unfounded speculation with some analysis, so mind the discourse tag. 

There are popular theories, the first being that having CR3 start when promotion for the Vox Machina animated series is ongoing would be great timing for CR newbies. The second being that the pandemic was difficult on a lot of the cast and crew and they may want start anew when they get to play at the same table again.

However, my controversial unfounded guess of a theory is that certain characters found themselves stuck in a bind and the players weren’t interested in letting them go and creating new characters. 

I’m looking particularly at Veth and Caduceus. I think people were looking at CR1 and thinking that Taryon worked out so why not do it again. Sam had mentioned in Talks that he didn’t want to be the person who had characters leaving the party, and Taliesin was already on his second character. I think they wanted to see their characters to the end with the others.

The biggest issue with that is pacing. The Mighty Nein never stopped. In the entire campaign they only had one instance of downtime and IIRC it wasn’t more than 2 weeks long. Cad barely got to spend time with his family, he didn’t even get to see them safely home before he was gone on another quest with the rest of the M9. Same with Veth. It was looking like maybe the M9 would have some downtime before they had to leave with Vess but that was cut short when they discovered Molly’s grave was empty. By the time the M9 were off to Eiselcross, Veth had less than 24 hours of downtime with her family when original it was supposed to be about a week.

IMO, I think there was a big missed opportunity for downtime post Travelercon. I actually think having Travelercon be a fixed point of time also increased the M9s pacing to unsustainable levels. They were constantly worried about missing it so there was no further exploration of the Happy Fun Ball and sidequests such as Pumat’s Basilisk oil were never followed up upon. But when it was over, I think a long break would have been ideal. Didn’t have to be a year long break, but it could have been long enough that characters who had families could actually spend time with them. Even the characters that didn’t want to see their families could have followed up on some of their backstories. Fjord could have followed up on Sabien. Maybe Jester would have taken time to visit Kiri. Beau could have went with Yasha to see Yuala’s grave, etc.

But it didn’t happen and things kept progressing in such a way that the M9 was always running against the clock. Aeor was a tightrope walk between exploring a cool setting and trying to catch up to Lucien. Basically, it got to the point where they only way to get downtime would be to leave the party. And again, I don’t think the players were into it.

Eiselcross being the last major arc means that all the M9 get to see things to the end together. And they get to have that downtime and the ability to round up the gang for another adventure if they ever feel like it for a future one shot. 

[tinkdw]

Look I know I keep going back to it but look LOOK AT THE SEASON 8 ANGEL FALL V SEASON 15 RESTORING HEAVEN MIRROR

Dabb’s Metatron spell re Cas v Dabb’s Chuck ending re Cas:

The components were :

1.

Then: Nephilim

Now: Jack

2.

Then: Grace of an angel (Castiel in love with a human)

Now: same but confirmed he’s in love with Dean humanity Winchester

3.

TWO BURLY PLAID WEARING MEN FALLING IN LOVE WHEN WE EXPECTED IT TO BE THE MAN AND WOMAN

???????

[astersofthesky]

BNHA "End All Quirks" Ending: A Meta-Theory

(Eversince I read @firyfox opinion regarding this particular series endgame possibility, my dumb ass decided to create a teeny meta-theory 😅)

Personally, I don't prefer everyone losing their quirks in the end, although Izuku has a high chance of returning to being quirkless once AFO gets defeated and OFA vanishes alongside it.

The eradication of quirks may seem farfetched and like a cop-out at first, but I don't think it's impossible. For me, this ending would only work if Izuku does return to being quirkless in the end.

So, if ever Hori decides to end all quirks, in my opinion, it can go three ways:

1. Quickly through quirk erasing drugs

2. Slowly by creating a drug that stabilizes a human's ability to pass quirks to the next generation

3. Quickly through a Deus ex machina (I highly doubt this one, I trust Hori)

The most plausible option I can see happening is the second option.

To elaborate, I would like to bring up Overhaul's theory that "Quirks are a virus that came from rats that somehow got passed to humans". From then on, it had continuously mutated into more different quirks.

It is important to remember that the world of MHA didn't have quirks at the beginning, it only started with the emergence of the luminescent baby. During the beginning of these meta abilities, it's not a stretch to say that a lot of people must have seen this as a sort of defect/illness. But since more people emerged with these "abilities", the world slowly experienced a societal change. It became a place where people with quirks are the perceived normal humans and quirkless people are the outcasts.

Another point I want to bring up is the plot of MHA World Heroes' Mission. While it isn't canon, it's still intriguing to not be ignored. It revolves around the group "Humanize" that believes in the Quirk Singularity Doomsday theory. To an extent, they also believe that quirks are a disease and just like Overhaul, wishes for the eradication of quirks.

The reason I brought this up is because the only explanation I can think of why society would be willing to remove quirks is if it will be seen as something dangerous and destructive, and the closest negative words we have gotten to this are "disease/illness". (The Quirk Singularity also plays a huge part in it's removal.)

This can lead us to the question:

Will the eradication of quirks truly solve the issues of the society?

Conflict arose due to the existence of quirks. While quirks aren't inherently evil, it is a tool that can be used for evil or good. Take Spider Man's quote for example, "With great power comes with great responsibility". The thing is, all of them are given power, but not all people are responsible, not all people are willing to do good. An individual is bound to selfishly use these quirks for theirself. Also, the chaos "villains" had created is the reason why heroes (vigilantes when there still isn't a fixed system) even existed in the first place.

If so, by removing quirks (the root of the problem), then everything should be resolved. That is the plan. The problem is it wouldn't work (not now at least)

Why?

Because quirk is not the only root cause of these issues. It is also the people's views and ideologies and how everything is built and based on a fragile quirk and hero-based society.

Still, my answer to that question is yes.

You're probably wondering why. Well, it's actually simple.

Who said that "eradication of quirks" should be applied to this generation?

All people have been deeply engrossed with their quirks. It's literally a part of their life, so suddenly removing it would feel like losing a limb and likely cause fear and confusion (unless ALL are willing to remove theirs)

Besides, this generation harbors the set of people who have experienced both the terror and greatness quirks can bring. It is their right and responsibility to fix, acknowledge, and mend the wounds the "war" and "society" had inflicted upon them.

Together, both heroes, "villains", and civilians alike should help each other and reach a hand out as they start once again to rebuild a new and better society in preparation for a quirkless one.

It can also make Midoriya Izuku the perfect person to stand in the front lines and lead them as he himself had both worn the shoes of being quirkless and being a person blessed with a very powerful quirk.

Izuku, who once thought that he can't be a hero because he was quirkless, will come to realize that what makes him a true hero is his will and desire to help and save people with a smile. It would also be an impactful ending for his character and BNHA. (Since Hori loves parallels and apparently full circles I can see this happening)

It will not be a repeat like before because he wouldn't be like All Might who became the lone pillar and glue of a hero biased society.

Izuku will not be alone in his journey as he and his peers become the greatest heroes and guiding light in a beginning of a quirkless-based society.

[makerkenzie]

Jaime Lannister, First of His Name: "He had no right to that throne."

As I said in my previous post, the "he had no right to that throne" conversation has three levels:

1. Top level, in which Ned is trying to convince Robert not to trust Jaime.

2. Middle level, in which Ned and Robert argue about the significance of symbolism.

3. Base level, in which Ned works himself into a lather about Jaime sitting on the throne.

But here's the thing: I don't say this as a critique of Ned. I have criticized Ned for being so quick to judge Jaime, and I will continue to do so, but this isn't one of those times.

Here's the full text of the conversation in question:

“Can you trust Jaime Lannister?”

“He is my wife’s twin, a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard, his life and fortune and honor all bound to mine.”

“As they were bound to Aerys Targaryen’s,” Ned pointed out.

“Why should I mistrust him? He has done everything I have ever asked of him. His sword helped win the throne I sit on.”

His sword helped taint the throne you sit on, Ned thought, but he did not permit the words to pass his lips. “He swore a vow to protect his king’s life with his own. Then he opened that king’s throat with a sword.”

“Seven hells, someone had to kill Aerys!” Robert said, reining his mount to a sudden halt beside an ancient barrow. “If Jaime hadn’t done it, it would have been left for you or me.”

“We were not Sworn Brothers of the Kingsguard,” Ned said. The time had come for Robert to hear the whole truth, he decided then and there. “Do you remember the Trident, Your Grace?”

“I won my crown there. How should I forget it?”

“You took a wound from Rhaegar,” Ned reminded him. “So when the Targaryen host broke and ran, you gave the pursuit into my hands. The remnants of Rhaegar’s army fled back to King’s Landing. We followed. Aerys was in the Red Keep with several thousand loyalists. I expected to find the gates closed to us.”

Robert gave an impatient shake of his head. “Instead you found that our men had already taken the city. What of it?”

“Not our men,” Ned said patiently. “Lannister men. The lion of Lannister flew over the ramparts, not the crowned stag. And they had taken the city by treachery.” The war had raged for close to a year. Lords great and small had flocked to Robert’s banners; others had remained loyal to Targaryen. The mighty Lannisters of Casterly Rock, the Wardens of the West, had remained aloof from the struggle, ignoring calls to arms from both rebels and royalists. Aerys Targaryen must have thought that his gods had answered his prayers when Lord Tywin Lannister appeared before the gates of King’s Landing with an army twelve thousand strong, professing loyalty. So the mad king had ordered his last mad act. He had opened his city to the lions at the gate.

“Treachery was a coin the Targaryens knew well,” Robert said. The anger was building in him again. “Lannister paid them back in kind. It was no less than they deserved. I shall not trouble my sleep over it.”

“You were not there,” Ned said, bitterness in his voice. Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night. “There was no honor in that conquest.”

“The Others take your honor!” Robert swore. “What did any Targaryen ever know of honor? Go down into your crypt and ask Lyanna about the dragon’s honor!”

“You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.

“That did not bring her back.” Robert looked away, off into the grey distance. “The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown . . . it was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe . . . and mine again, as she was meant to be. I ask you, Ned, what good is it to wear a crown? The gods mock the prayers of kings and cowherds alike.”

“I cannot answer for the gods, Your Grace . . . only for what I found when I rode into the throne room that day,” Ned said. “Aerys was dead on the floor, drowned in his own blood. His dragon skulls stared down from the walls. Lannister’s men were everywhere. Jaime wore the white cloak of the Kingsguard over his golden armor. I can see him still. Even his sword was gilded. He was seated on the Iron Throne, high above his knights, wearing a helm fashioned in the shape of a lion’s head. How he glittered!”

“This is well known,” the king complained.

“I was still mounted. I rode the length of the hall in silence, between the long rows of dragon skulls. It felt as though they were watching me, somehow. I stopped in front of the throne, looking up at him. His golden sword was across his legs, its edge red with a king’s blood. My men were filling the room behind me. Lannister’s men drew back. I never said a word. I looked at him seated there on the throne, and I waited. At last Jaime laughed and got up. He took off his helm, and he said to me, ‘Have no fear, Stark. I was only keeping it warm for our friend Robert. It’s not a very comfortable seat, I’m afraid.’ ”

The king threw back his head and roared. His laughter startled a flight of crows from the tall brown grass. They took to the air in a wild beating of wings. “You think I should mistrust Lannister because he sat on my throne for a few moments?” He shook with laughter again. “Jaime was all of seventeen, Ned. Scarce more than a boy.”

“Boy or man, he had no right to that throne.”

“Perhaps he was tired,” Robert suggested. “Killing kings is weary work. Gods know, there’s no place else to rest your ass in that damnable room. And he spoke truly, it is a monstrous uncomfortable chair. In more ways than one.” The king shook his head. “Well, now I know Jaime’s dark sin, and the matter can be forgotten.”

Right? Right. I've argued before that at the textual level, Jaime's own behavior in this flashback doesn't tell the story Ned thinks it does. Now I'm looking at the subtext and the sub-subtext. We've got Ned painting this picture of the Golden Lion of Lannister sat up on the throne, still holding the gilded sword with the king's blood on its edge, while his knights stand in service. Meanwhile the ghosts (or rather skulls) of all the past dragons stare down from the walls. And there's the last of the dragons, dead on the floor.

So then Bob's all like, look, Ned, the symbolism of the gilded sword and the lion-helm up on the throne don't matter nearly as much to me as Jaime being a good loyal Kingsguard knight for my entire reign.

Okay, that much is cute. Where it stops being about Ned having weird priorities, and starts being GRRM doing his Asshole Foreshadowing is where the focus changes from Jaime having killed the king to Jaime having the nerve to sit on the throne.

It's supposed to be about Jaime killing the king. At the beginning, the conversation is about Jaime killing the king.

But then look what happens when Jaime speaks to Ned: it's about the throne. Ned hasn't said anything! And surely Jaime knows Ned sees the Mad King's corpse on the floor. Yet the very first thing Jaime says to Ned is hey, don't worry, I know this is Robert's seat, I'd never claim it for myself.

This is a choice on GRRM's part. It's also a choice on GRRM's part when Ned says, "he had no right to that throne."

Sure, Jaime had no right to that throne...but he'll have a right to another throne, later. Someday, that'll be his court. Instead of a lion-helm, it'll be a crown. No dragon skulls glaring down from the walls. No bloody sword in his hand, but maybe a sword with rubies and gold hanging on the wall.

[iron--spider]

From webslinginstark on twitter. Excerpts from a book called “Destiny Arrives” by Liza Palmer. Seems to have been published by Marvel and Disney.

UH YEAH, GUYS, ENDGAME IS GONNA BE AN IRON DAD EVENT.

[veliseraptor]

one of the many (many) reasons I’m going to be super pissed if Steve dies in Endgame is because it’s just going to be...a profoundly depressing end to his arc. Steve has not had any peace. he’s never had the chance to. from the first time we see him fighting bullies in The First Avenger all the way through, Steve doesn’t get a single minute of happiness or fulfillment. 

he talks in Winter Soldier about not knowing what he wants. he talks in Age of Ultron about never being able to go home. he’s constantly living in a state of crisis to crisis, because he doesn’t know how to stop, because he’s never been able to. 

and if after that - after losing to Thanos - he ends up dying? the idea of that being the conclusion of this man’s absolutely devastating life where he hasn’t had a moment’s relief to actually live?

that’s just goddamn sad, and it’s a story of futility in a lot of ways, and it’s a tragedy, and tragedy isn’t what I come to superhero movies for.

anyway that’s all I’ve got thanks folks