#jaime lannister

[melrosing]

So you just said there's a wild amount of foreshadowing for Tyrion killing Jaime. Can you point to some examples?

yep. so there’s obviously the scene in which they part ways where Tyrion comes out w these ominous lines, notably the first one:

"Oh, you've earned more than that, Jaime. You and my sweet sister and our loving father, yes, I can't begin to tell you what you've earned. But you'll have it, that I swear to you. A Lannister always pays his debts."

-

"Jaime, can you fight left-handed?"

"Rather less well than you," Jaime said bitterly.

"Good. Then we will be well matched if we should ever meet again. The cripple and the dwarf."

then there’s these lines in ADWD

That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping.

-

Tyrion pictured how his sister's head might look up there, with tar in her golden hair and flies buzzing in and out of her mouth. Yes, and Jaime must have the spike beside her, he decided. No one must ever come between my brother and my sister.

and then there’s this smoking gun at the end of GRRM’s suvudu cage match series which recalls the first quote…. like 😭😭

and then if you can bear me talking about Richard III again, it’s interesting that the speech ‘Tyrion’ makes in Arya’s TWOW sample (which is ofc made by an actor portraying Tyrion) draws very obviously on Richard’s opening monologue in Shakespeare’s play, where he kind of lays out his grievances (including resentment of his siblings) and resulting villainy. at this point in asoiaf, I think Tyrion has now actually become GRRM’s version of the RIII character, and so the tragedy in a sense begins here.

[melrosing]

I feel like this is so strongly Jaime’s reasoning, that his reputation is beyond repair in the eyes of the world and even though he’s been going through a significant change this change is personal to him and has no impact on how the world sees him. I’m in the Jaime survives the series camp (implied or outright confirmed) specifically because I think he will absolutely never see his public image repaired. He’ll live with it forever.

Also vv curious to hear more about what you think might happen between him and Tyrion I love seeing different perspectives

yep im def aligned on that much. you can literally see in the scene that he’s pained to be adopting the kingslayer persona but its the only currency he has at the time.

as for what might happen w Jaime and Tyrion…. I really don’t know, but here are some elements I think will be true:

Tyrion is going to become a lot darker. this is entirely in keeping w Shakespeare’s Richard III, whose story he has paralleled surprisingly closely so far

I think Tyrion’s getting a dragon….. and that he will use it

I don’t think Jaime and Tyrion will speak again actually. like if they had a chance to I think they would inevitably reconcile bc they obviously miss each other terribly. but GRRM has clearly asserted he’s writing a tragedy for Tyrion and reconciliation w Jaime doesn’t fit in there. so I think the next time they see each other will probably also be the last

again, I don’t think this really agitates anything I already believed about Jaime’s story, though my beliefs about Tyrion’s have changed quite a bit this year. I’ve always thought Jaime was likely to die and I’ve often thought Tyrion might be the one to do it, but GRRM stating outright that Tyrion’s story is a tragedy and even indicating his death is on the cards has really clarified a lot of things for me and made the whole RIII thing a lot more obvious too. so now im thinking more about how Jaime fits into THAT story, and I think the version of Jaime in my head unfortunately does fit fine here lol. it’s actually more tragic if Jaime HAS improved himself and IS in love and DOES want to see Tyrion again bc like: everything could’ve been alright. but that’s tragedy baybee

so i think Tyrion will at some point be temporarily overwhelmed by anger at Jaime again, act on it, and that’s the end of that. v Baelor/Maekar. and I can cope w this ending

if things do go this way I think it happens in the latter half of ADOS? this will be the thing Tyrion does that hurts him the most and that he cannot emotionally come back from, and will probably quickly lead to his own demise. I can’t really see it happening sooner bc then what, Tyrion just goes the rest of the story w that over his head?? nah. I think this will be the final sign of just how far gone he is from his old self

anyway as ever. what do I know. but this is where im probably gonna be at until we hear otherwise

[melrosing]

I think it's worth noting that Jaime is threatening Edmure with something he knows Edmure will believe. He assumes that within the Tully family they think of him more as the guy who pushed Bran out of the window rather than the Kingslayer. So he's making a threat that only holds weight because it's coming from him

yeah Jaime knows this has a really strong chance of working so long as it’s Edmure he’s dealing with and not the blackfish but naturally pulls out all the stops to ensure that it does. im not necessarily gonna give him credit for making Edmure believe the worst of him to make this work but he does do that lol like Jaime could’ve at any point said ‘hey I actually have an ongoing plan to save your niece w the woman who ur sister sent me off with two books ago’ bc apart from anything that serves no purpose but to undermine his threats so long he doesn’t actually HAVE Sansa

[melrosing]

What do you think Tyrion and Jaime will do after they meet again (if they will)?

What about Jaime and Cersei?

Tyrion and Cersei?

weirdly I have just been discussing w oomf and like. I think we both agree that Tyrion will probably be directly responsible for Jaime’s death and that will be their next interaction lol. there’s a wild amount of foreshadowing for this that I’m kind of surprised at myself I’ve managed to ignore …. and yeah while I have no idea what that death might look like (could literally be anything from Tyrion having him executed to Tyrion killing Jaime from atop a dragon to god knows what I really have no idea but put it this way I don’t think it’ll be an accident. maybe a Maekar v Baelor situation tho where like he didn’t MEAN to but also. he kind of did) but this feels in keeping w GRRM’s Richard III parallels w Tyrion and I don’t think has to disrupt the overall character trajectory I understand Jaime to have.

Jaime and Cersei - idk. either he is the valonqar or he isn’t, and if he is I assume it’ll have to do w wildfire + maybe the fate of their children.

Tyrion and Cersei I 50/50 think may never speak again. there’s not really anything left to say between them and regardless of who IS the valonqar, I’m near certain it’s not Tyrion

[melrosing]

What did Jaime expect Tyrion to do once he finds a place to stay after his escape? As I can remember Tyrion had no money etc.

idk it’s like a last minute plan to save Tyrion’s life - I think it’s understandable he doesn’t have a bank account and fake ID set up for him. but Varys is also in on it and ofc has his ways, so Jaime probably has reasonable expectation that Tyrion would be able to sustain himself some kind of way.

[melrosing]

How Jaime tries to save Edmure's child by threatening him?

bc if Edmure’s child is born a boy everyone on team Lannister/Frey wants him dead: he’d immediately represent a figurehead for the North/Riverlands to rally around, which would ofc begin the war again - and the Lannisters are not in a good position for a new war.

Jaime’s using Tywin style rhetoric to convince Edmure to do the only thing that has any chance of keeping both Tullys and Lannisters safe (even though as I’ve said before there’s really no chance of Lannister safety atp) - getting a full surrender from Edmure in exchange for which he and his family can live untroubled at CR.

obviously it’s a humiliating and unjust deal, but in Jaime’s ludicrously complex position it’s the best he has to offer, and if Edmure refuses it there’s basically nothing left for jaime to suggest - unless he goes fuck it yeah have Riverrun back, rebel against my family, kill them all and probably eventually my own son lol. so the threat is made so that Edmure won’t even consider the alternative. always worth remembering that Jaime’s entire object in the riverlands is to avoid violence against the Tullys.

[melrosing]

In defense of a guy who doesn't care about (his) kids getting a love story, Jaime is kinda in that boat too.

Tries to kill two of Ned's kids, threatens Edmure's kid (even if I firmly believe he doesn't mean it), aggressively doesn't give a fuck about his own bio kids ("Joff was no more to me than a squirt of seed in Cersei's cunt"), never once thinks about Elia's kids that I recall, spends a lot of time pondering the fate of women in war but never really thinks about kids in general either.

And that's fine, good for him, and honestly you could even make the case that being the son of Warcrimes McGee may have predisposed him to being so callous (which does also apply to Rhaegar in a way), but in the text itself it's never really justified or even questioned, Jaime is just a kid hater start to finish lol

‘tries to kill two of ned’s kids’

well yeah fs his original sins! and the story is about Jaime wondering how he even became such the kind of guy who would do such things and trying to save the remaining Stark children. it’s also worth pointing out that GRRM says Jaime’s children factor into his decision to push bran tho, and that indeed is why Ned and Cat both reckon they might have done the same in his position. it’s not done due to a general disdain for children basically lol

threatens Edmure’s kid

we’re all just gonna have to get used to the fact that Jaime threatening Edmure’s kid is Jaime attempting to save Edmure’s kid. the speech is extremely calculated and while there were days when i used to indulge the whole ‘would Jaime or would Jaime not ACTUALLY trebuchet the baby’ I now think that it’s so far beside the point of the passage that it’s not even worth entertaining

aggressively doesn’t give a fuck about his bio kids

Joffrey is the exception, not the rule, and saying he just doesn’t give a fuck about the kid is a …. simplification.

as for Tommen and Myrcella, Jaime is actively trying to work out a way to reveal to them that he is their father, because he wants to be their father - but is also wrestling with the fact that the children themselves may not want to know and everybody else sure doesn’t. the fact that it’s Tommen specifically who sits the throne is a major reason why Jaime is making the effort he is w the Kingsguard.

also we can see through his behaviour and interactions w Tommen that Jaime absolutely gives a fuck about him. Cersei herself notes that Jaime is ‘as anxious as she is’ at Tommen’s wedding when they’re both fearing a potential repeat of Joffrey’s death. Jaime tries to counsel Tommen after he runs from Tywin’s body and defends him from Cersei. Jaime indulges Tommen and laughs with him and tries to fight his corner to Cersei. throughout AFFC, jaime is trying to plan how he can remove Cersei’s influence from Tommen’s counsel and give his son a fighting chance at a secure and peaceful rule. it’s actually ridiculous to say Jaime doesn’t give a fuck lol

he does indeed run off w Brienne at the end of ADWD, but it’s not to go fuck in a tower, it’s because Brienne has told him they need to rescue Sansa Stark from certain death lol. Jaime has a genuine conflict about where he ought to be, and im sure still will in TWOW. certain somebody else has. decidedly less conflict in his heart regarding his children lol

never once thinks about Elia’s kids that I recall

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. "I left my wife and children in your hands."

"I never thought he'd hurt them." Jaime's sword was burning less brightly now. (ASOS)

For an instant, the deep red clouds that crowned the western hills reminded him of Rhaegar's children, all wrapped up in crimson cloaks. (ADWD)

one could actually say the memory of Rhaegar’s children and what was done to them is significant in Jaime’s determination to rescue the Stark girls, as in the above instances, Rhaegar is paralleled to Ned, and Rhaenys and Aegon to Sansa.

never really thinks about kids in general either

man what is he supposed to be thinking about kids specifically as opposed to smallfolk generally 😭

[chrkrose]

The Quiet Island (or where j/b is having their honeymoon after eloping 15 years ago) You can see Harrenhal back there (that big black building)