#ff7r theory

[glowyjellyfish]

Okay, I am sure somebody else somewhere has thought of this, but I was just watching the ending in an LP and had a bunch of thoughts and it all sort of came together like this.

Sephiroth wants to never die. He’s also ferociously lonely and has a horror-hunger-level need to belong somewhere, while simultaneously knowing in his gut that he does not, cannot belong with 99.99% of people on the planet. Back at Nibelheim, he found out the surface-level stuff about Jenova and lost his shit, assuming it was accurate that she was an Ancient and probably getting some influence from her. So during his first meltdown--he believed he was an artificially created Ancient, and wanted to kill all the humans and take the planet back for the ancients. Again, he was probably being manipulated by Jenova at this time, but it’s unclear how much that could influence his emotions and behavior. Then he was thrown into the Lifestream, where he undoubtedly learned the full truth of his own creation. He then supplants Jenova’s will, because she barely has one and he is a person with feelings, and turns all her powers towards his new goal of smash meteor into planet and become god. I’ll have to recheck dialogue, but if I’m not mistaken he doesn’t actually want to completely destroy the whole planet. His intention is to kill every living thing on the planet, absorb all the lifestream, and… make a new planet? Use the power to travel through space like jenova? Idk. I like the former for my theory, because then I can conclude he assumes he would of course belong to a new world of his own creation that he reigns over like a god. But I can’t remember how thoroughly he described what he wanted to do after Meteor.

So. He’s prevented from completing that goal by the events of the OG/compilation, but he cannot fully be killed either and just hangs out isolated in the lifestream until the Planet dies, much later. Sephiroth cannot have the actual planet actually dying. That makes him die too. So he uses a mix of Jenova and Lifestream powers to go back in time. He can’t change history himself, that’s part of the planet and he isn’t, and for the same reason he can’t really affect the whispers, although he can stir them up. So he has to use his influence over Cloud and other Sephiroth clones to achieve his current goal of never dying. And he genuinely believes that his interests and Cloud’s interests align for this. Why, Sephiroth is actually trying to save the planet! That’s what Cloud does! ...not to mention that throughout his entire life, Cloud as the sole successful Sephiroth clone is the closest thing Sephiroth feels he has to a peer in the entire history of the planet. I am not familiar with Genesis and Angeal, but for the sake of this theory I have to assume that Sephiroth preferred to dismiss them as clearly inferior for dying rather than feel any grief or closeness or anything. He has come to respect Cloud because Cloud’s the only one who has repeatedly been able to defeat him. Therefore, I think he’s being as sincere as he can when he’s talking to Cloud throughout Remake. Manipulative, yes. Not telling him everything, of course. But if there’s one thing I have noticed about Sephiroth’s character over the course of 25 years of playing the OG, it’s that he is not actually particularly interested in outright lying. The main time he is believed to be lying, it’s unclear whether he even realized at that point that Cloud was the same soldier that was at Nibelheim, and if he did he might not have realized how much of Cloud’s persona was still him and not just a weird Jenova-crafted show. I think the Zack stuff is very likely things Sephiroth is attempting to offer Cloud, or things Cloud subconsciously changed without fully realizing what he was doing.

Anyway, the main reason I really like this whole theory is that a. This places Sephiroth and his worldview in direct opposition to Aerith. Aerith is connected to the Planet and must accept the inevitability of her own death as well as the Planet’s. Sephiroth is isolated from the Planet and refuses to accept any such thing. Which I feel could lead to some very interesting push and pull on Cloud, as Sephiroth could very well attempt to push Cloud to save Aerith, trying to get Cloud in a headspace of refusing to accept death, while Aerith would insist on letting go for the greater good and the natural order. (Not that Sephiroth will in any way try to avoid killing her. He can’t change the past, and the point isn’t “let Aerith live”, the point is “make Cloud change things to save her, make Cloud change things to save everything forever including me”). And b. it does as much fleshing out of Sephiroth and his development and motives as the Remake has done for every other character so far. In my opinion, Sephiroth is not and should not be portrayed as a flat evil villain. He’s cold, disconnected, cruel, and inhuman, but in a lot of ways he is still very human. I have felt for ages that it was Sephiroth’s very human emotions that made his will strong enough to completely supplant Jenova’s will in her own cells, and his freak out in Nibelheim was a very human reaction acted out with terrifyingly inhuman strength.

...anyway that’s just where I’m at with Remake Sephiroth right now. My opinion will probably change again next time I play through, and I will probably be wrong no matter how much I like any of my own theories, but I’m enjoying the ride. It’ll be fun to test this theory again the actual remake dialogue and see if it holds up.

(Sephiroth, I accept I am very likely wrong about. Certain other characters? My god I hope I’m right about Reeve, I will be so disappointed if my remake-inspired rethinking him through is too far off the mark.)

[silver-wield]

I guess after the “stabbing”, Tifa and Barret got kicked out of the sim with no idea Sephiroth stuck them with his sword. Ykno, since they never even bring it up besides saying they feel sick.

The big question is: did this foreshadow what would happen if the group never left Midgar? Or is it showing what’ll happen if they come back during meteor fall? Is it Sephiroth’s attempt to follow through with his chapter 2 “request” for Cloud to run? It’s not OG canon, since Tifa never dies, so is this now our new canon? Is it hinting some of the main party will die? 

I mean, it’s Sephiroth messing with everything, so why would he tip his hand and essentially warn Cloud that he’s gonna kill the people close to him? He didn’t tell anyone before he killed Aerith. He’s not Don Corneo, revealing his grand plans because he thinks he’s already won. 

This is weird, right? It can’t just be to up the Sephiroth threat level and further freak Cloud out or provide ship content or for Square to play their balancing act—we got Aerith foreshadowed death and now we’ve got Tifa too. That’s way too shallow. 

Cloud’s face here though totally kills me. I caught it first time I played and it hit me hard in the feels. I had to replay to see if I’d imagined that level of intensity on his face (for him), but nope, I was right.

[submarinedog]

Ok so this is almost completely illegible but that surname is way too long to be Wallace and I’m 80% sure I see an “m” and an “n” in that first name, so, new theory: his wife was a trooper and either retired before marrying him or was on leave at the time of her death.

[xxjustshakeitupxx]

FFVII REMAKE THEORY *SPOILERS*

Okay so you know how Sephiroth says to Cloud, "7 seconds till the end. Time enough for you perhaps. I wonder what you will do with it"? It's theorized that this is when Sephiroth kills Aerith in the original.

People also speculate that the remake is potentially going to be an alternate timeline for FFVII. HOWEVER my theory is that I think the major story beats will be there albeit differently (ie Wedge dying later than intended but still dying in the first part) and Aerith with her connection to the Lifestream will see from alternate paths (where Zack, Biggs and Jessie survive) that trying to defy Destiny is actually bad in the long run for the entire planet. So she'll do as her fate designs, but everyone having also seen those visions from the first part will try to stop it. Knowing she cant let that happen, Aerith, with the help of the Whispers to stop them (if they're still around) will give this horrible, heartwrenching speech about how it's alright and she'll always be with them. Then those damn seven seconds come and everyone has to watch as she sacrifices herself for the planet. This gives us her death but in a different way that will surprise EVERYONE playing.

Now with the story basically going back to what was intended, the story follows basically the same but with Aerith KNOWING what will happen in the future that will come she will prevent Sephiroth from surviving in the Lifestream, saving the planet from the Geostigma and from him EVER coming back.

[dashxero]

My Crazy Final Fantasy VII Remake Theory (BIG SPOILERS)

This rambling of mine contains SPOILERS. So, if you are planning to play FFVII remake, or if you haven’t played it yet, don’t read this. Just keep scrolling as though it never graced your timeline.

First thing’s first. Initially, I hated FF7R because the time travel mechanics completely ruined physics. The plot ghosts being in control of time and subject to the will of the planet raised a lot of questions that made everything super fucky. However, after reading Lifestream White/Black, I came to realize that “Whispers of Time” is a misnomer. They are actually Wardens of the Planet’s Memory. The reason the Plot Ghosts were so hell-bent on preserving everything is because the planet was trying to preserve its own sanity by actively rewriting events similar to how we use logic to synthesize our own memories. There’s no time travel at all. What I think they’re going for is actually kind of brilliant. I now adore what I think they’re doing with Final Fantasy VII Remake.

Viewing things from this lens, the first question we must ask is if everyone is living or dead? Everyone is long dead. Everyone. Sephiroth, Aerith, Cloud, Tifa, Barret, Red XIII, Rufus… If you can see them, they are already dead, and their spirits have rejoined the planet. In Lifestream White, it describes spirits that Aerith knew (“far too few”) and healed. The party, and, likely, the major players of the Plot of FF7OG are spirits that Aerith has healed. Why would Aerith heal these spirits in the Lifestream instead of allowing them to rest? Because she needed help to deal with Sephiroth in the Lifestream. This also opens up something interesting. There Is a fictional justification for why we can’t initiate conversations with many NPCs in FF7R – Aerith didn’t know them!

What is Sephiroth doing? Sephiroth’s plan is to gaslight the planet. Sephiroth, or rather, the core of Sephiroth is trying to rewrite the planet’s memory to convince it that it got hit by Meteor – thus retroactively causing the planet to use the Lifestream energy to heal itself. Sephiroth wants to use that energy to make himself whole and carry out Jenova’s MO of sucking planets dry and moving on to the next one. Now, here’s where things get a little crazy. The entire compilation of FF7 aside from FF7OG is likely taking place within the mind/consciousness of the planet. Which theoretically means that Advent Children was Sephiroth attempting to execute his plan the first time. Even Last Order – a piece of Final Fantasy VII media reviled because of its retcon of the Nibelheim incident makes sense in this context. Sephiroth has been eroding the memory of the planet pretty much the entire time, and he’s mostly been doing that by screwing with Cloud to insure that he’s never “just a memory.” Question: in these works, why are the plot ghosts not attempting to enforce memory on those incidents? The best answer I can come up with is that the planet was unconscious shortly after using Holy to fend off Meteor. You can’t remember things from when you were unconscious, BUT you can likely dream things up.

Now, I’ll hit you with something blatantly crazy. Cloud, or rather, the spirit of Cloud is actually what hangs in the balance. Sephiroth needs Cloud’s spirit to enact his own plans and make himself whole when the time comes. Aerith cares for Cloud deeply, and probably doesn’t want Cloud’s spirit to be used and thrown away for the purpose of destroying the planet. What we are viewing when we look at FF7R is Sephiroth and Aerith playing for keeps. Cloud is essentially FF7’s version of Job. He is stuck in a wager between two entities playing for stakes much higher than anything that actually concerns him. Cloud is gonna be put through the wringer for this wager. Things are gonna get ugly.

Here’s where we go into some truly gonzo stuff. I think both Aerith and Sephiroth agreed to trick the party into killing the Plot Ghosts. Deceiving the party into destroying the Plot Ghosts was definitely a part of Sephiroth’s plan – as it gave him more power; but it was likely also part of Aerith’s plan too. Sephiroth wanted the plot ghosts gone to more easily facilitate his gaslighting of the planet. Aerith wants the plot ghosts gone to facilitate her plan B – Zack. If they were going to make such a wager, all the safety devices needed to be out of the picture for the results of the wager to be truly final.

On the subject of Zack: What we are viewing when we see Zack is likely not an alternate timeline. What we see is the planet pursuing a “What If” scenario now that the Memory Wardens are gone.  This isn’t too farfetched when we really think about it because we do that with our own memories all the time. And, when it gets especially bad, we insert parts of these “what if” stories into our own memories/narratives as though they actually happened. Cloud did the same thing in FF7OG. With the plot ghosts gone, there’s nothing to say, “none of this happened” – no grand arbiters to enforce a correct narrative. Zack’s spirit has been freed to get the job done in case Cloud fails; or to aid Cloud if he is on the verge of failing.

I’ll wrap this up by stating that we really need to take a closer look at Aerith and maybe consider adding the adjective “ruthless” to the list of adjectives we use when describing her.

Thanks for reading if you got this far...

[silver-wield]

With the way AerTi has been portrayed in the remake I think there’ll be no more love triangle moving forward. They made Aerith this ethereal character the party has to protect. I also noticed that in Shinra HQ it was Tifa who showed more concern for Aerith rather than Cloud. It just sucks that Clerith shippers are all over the place shoving “evidences” down our throats but don’t see them trying to explain that Zack and Aerith scene in the end

The thing I want the most is to end the shipping war. For Square to definitively say "this is the heroine of Ff7". I'm not expecting a sweeping declaration, I mean it IS Cloud, but something that finally puts a lid on it would be a great way to close out the compilation.

I have nothing against Aerith, but I just didn't get the point of her. It seemed like she was added so they'd have someone to kill off, and if you didn't raise your affinity enough with her then the impact of that death didn't hit as hard. I liked the staging of her death, but I was more cut up about everyone else's reactions after. Their grief and how they pushed forward made the game for me. Especially on top of all the other deaths and failures they faced.

Remake Tifa comes off really sympathetic and sweet. I spent a lot of time just saying aww about how kind and selfless she is, but I noticed the only one who asked after her wellbeing was Aerith. Their friendship is one of my favourite things about the remake. No more stupid jealousy. They're both way out of Cloud's league anyway and he should be thanking God they like him 🤣

Remake Aerith comes off more untouchable than before. She's less of a heroine and more a plot driving force. She's distant and despite her cheery nature I felt she didn't really get close to anyone besides Tifa. That may have been intentional if she's got all this metadata and knows she'll die and that Tifa and Cloud will be together.

I've avoided the war for the most part, so I actually went looking for the Clerith evidence. Man, they try so hard it's hilarious! All those essays!

Funny I couldn't find any about Tifa. It's almost as if the compilation is evidence enough 🤔

I could probably explain part of the scene. It's a callback to Aerith saying she shouldn't look back because usually there's an over the shoulder look in those kind of scenes. She puts her head down instead, steeling herself against doing it, though I think her eyes track and there's a slight head turn, but I'd have to watch it again to be sure. Point is, she wanted to look back but kept her resolve to look forward. Not at Cloud - because it'd be easy to throw in a glance at him here too - but forward.

[submarinedog]

I can’t find the thing that’d back this up, but I’d heard that Aerith was originally intended to die after Icicle Inn / in the Whirlwind Maze, given that there’s apparently dialogue remnants if you hack her back into the party after her death, or something like that. 

I feel that, given that, it’s possible/probable that Aerith’s death scene in the forgotten city may not happen- and be replaced with a completely different one later. 

Which I am totally on board with, for a few reasons 

1) I want to know how she’d react to the reveal of her parents

2) Keeps the surprise factor in play since LITERALLY EVERYONE knows she’s gonna die but if she doesn’t die at the moment people expect her to, almost everyone’s guard is going to be down 

3) The ripple effect on the endgame of the story would only be slight, in comparison to if she didn’t die at all, but it would mix things up a fair amount. 

If I’m right, there’s four good possible places where she could die: directly before the Jenova fight, directly after it in one of those wins-the-fight-loses-in-the-cutscene situations, in the Nibelheim illusion, or trying to stop Cloud to no avail in that one cave. 

There’s things the remake did in Midgar that’s shit that was either left on the cutting room floor (eg the increase in headache moments from Cloud), or was a concept that was wholesale changed or repurposed from what it was originally meant to be (eg the pre-release theories about the whispers were based on a concept that never made it into the original game, vs the actual truth of what the whispers turned out to be) so this could be one of those things

Given all the heavy references to it throughout the remake, plus everything about the ending, I don’t think they’ll leave her death untouched, but I’m not sure that that means she’ll just be fine.

[silver-wield]

Is this foreshadowing Aerith’s eventual death and necessity to be within the planet to stop meteor or is it an image foreshadowing the OG ending, which means she was aware of her fate as a child?

Check the red shooting star and yellow flower that’s clearly within the centre of a circle, representing the planet, her and meteor. There’s also a few summons scattered about, the cetra, the ancient temple, Aerith and her mom to the left of Cloud’s head, some random dark haired guy by Cloud’s right hand, two stags within a forest (the forgotten forest??), a dolphin (dolphin blow? wishful thinking?) and the lifestream swirling around it all.Whatever it is, it’s pretty af!