#flowey analysis

[dog-eater822]

I feel like Flowey is the the type of person who would rather have a nightmare rather than a sweet dream. Because think of it like this; when you wake up from a nightmare, you get reminded that it’s just a dream, and dreams can’t hurt you. However, when you wake up from a good dream, about being happy with loved ones, wouldn’t you also be sad? Because of course, it just a dream and dreams aren’t real.

[xzacloudx]

Weird, huh?

Random Deltarune thought:

In the game files, the fan-named “Snowgrave Route” is internally called:

Alternative Route, Side B, or Weird Route.

Which that last one, uh... seems awfully weird to do! Like, compared to the uncomfortable, gratuitous mental abuse the player can force Kris to inflict on Noelle, along with the mass-murder, it almost seems... too casual, too irreverent.

However, it’s not exactly unprecedented...

In Undertale, in the fan-named “Genocide Route”/Bad Kid/Kill-em-All/No Mercy Route... Papyrus makes it the most obvious that he knows we’re going around killing people, outright mentioning the dusty powder on our hands, & he calls us “freaking weirdo!”

And then, there’s Burgerpants, who usually calls us “little buddy” if we’ve talked to him. But if we’re in the G-Route? He switches to “little weirdo.”

Then there was even Asriel, if we backtrack all the way to the Ruins at the end of the True Pacifist run, reflecting on the fact that he had repeatedly tortured & killed everyone in the Underground...

“I did some weird stuff” indeed...

Maybe it’s kind of a reflection of the player’s mindset (since Asriel also kind of considered himself as a “player” in a “game” when he sufficiently dissociated from reality).

Players who do such routes aren’t necessarily cruel people or real killers at all. Most of them are genuinely horrified at what they uncover. They’re just curious. They just want to examine all the “what ifs”, & learn more about the characters they love, by observing their behavior in new circumstances. And they know it’s just a game.

Especially if we think oldskool, before Let’s Play streams & online revelations. Those of us old enough to remember that time, had to find out secrets tentatively, like a pioneer, & most games didn’t reward so many levels of curiosity. But, sometimes they did. & the thought of discovering something new about a game you love is exciting. So, if you just decided “I wonder what would happen if I killed everyone in this game,” your friend might just kind of be like, “All those nice characters? Wow, you’re weird.”

Not sure if that’s the intention, or if there may be some other meaning behind it, but... it’s an interesting pattern nonetheless.

[drdeltarunescum]

So every time I think about how adorable Ralsei is, I can't help but think about that anagram. More specifically I can't help but think about another Asriel Original Character (do not steal) and how Ralsei's behavior and personality might be a match to Flowey's first instincts on how to behave when he first woke up, during those first few runs.

Just imagining fluffy hug boy with his ribbons and his pacify spells and his compliments and manuals waking up without a soul with the weight of his mistakes and trauma hanging over him.

Imagine this kind of character fixing every problem, making every friend, but realizing he feels no less alone. Not feeling that friendship he wants so badly. Knowing that he can just reset and try again, and knowing that everything he does is in some way not real because it can be so easily altered.

I just keep thinking about how awful this would be.

...So of course I had to share it.

Have a great day!

[simonsoys]

If flowey didn’t have any sort of conflict with sans

(Aka he didn’t kill everyone in his resets etc)

Do you think they would get along ?

It's implied if not outright stated that Flowey started by being friends with everyone first, before he got bored and started trying more violent things to remain entertained. So I think they could get along fine.

On the other hand, Flowey definitely likes Papyrus more and keeps a cool distance from Sans, so I don't think much about Sans' personality is appealing to him. It doesn't help at all that by the time of the game, he's caught on that Sans has some sort of ulterior motive regarding time travelers-- like the dynamic between a detective and the criminal he's trying to catch. But I actually don't think that's the primary reason he doesn't like Sans much.

Even if it were Asriel we were talking about before he became Flowey, he would gravitate more towards someone straightforward, principled, kind, and genuine. Sans is non-committal, secretive, purposely morally grey, and sometimes sinister. In general, it seems like Asriel admires people who are earnest and determined. He admires Frisk and Chara at different points for their unwavering convictions. He seems to be closer to Asgore, since Asgore is the first one he went to after becoming Flowey. He's attached to Papyrus as a favorite character. I could be misremembering but I thought there were lines that he thinks Undyne is cool when pushed to fight, as well.

Comparatively, he actively voices disdain for characters like Sans (with good reason), Alphys (with good reason), and even Toriel. Toriel, who he still cares about, he digs into a lot as an "idiot" who can't take care of herself. These characters often say one thing but do another-- to Flowey this probably feels "flaky" and hypocritical.

Asriel/Flowey has more of a "follower" personality until the end of the pacifist route of the game, when he comes up with his own set of ideals to live by. Until he reaches that point in his character, I think he prefers people who "have the answers, even if they're wrong". It's hard to say how he'd act in a post-pacifist setting, but I think it could be close to this awesome comic from creepyknees

And just my own headcanon-- I feel like a lot of the NPC kids talk about Papyrus and Undyne being cool and entertaining, while it's mostly adults that say Sans is a fun, likeable guy. So I think whatever charm Sans normally has, it's mostly lost on younger folks who just think he's a weird dude with lame jokes.

[simonsoys]

  babycharmander

I don't think Undertale necessarily calls out those who watch the game on Youtube. Flowey seems to be more referring to Alphys and Sans there, since Alphys isn't present in the route at all but is watching through the cameras, and Sans doesn't act until immediately afterward.

The quote, after Flowey talks about experimenting with the timelines, being curious about killing people, and doing bad things just to know what happens:

“You of all people must know how liberating it is to act this way.

At least we’re better than those sickos that stand around and WATCH it happen...

Those pathetic people who want to see it, but don’t want to do it themselves.”

Sans or Alphys, or any other monster for that matter, don’t want to see a genocide route, and they sure don’t want to do it themselves.

Flowey is talking to Frisk (who he believes to be Chara), but it’s clear that Undertale is directing this conversation at you, and the people watching videos of the playthrough.

This whole segment with Flowey is supposed to mimic your actions and thought process as a player. It even makes fun of the player for trying to rationalize going through with the genocide route as “curiosity”. 

Undertale, more than any other game, is exceptionally aware of its relationship to you as a participant in its story, and I don’t think it ever tries to hide it.

[simonsoys]

what was chara and asriel/flowey relationship like? was it healthy or something

What we get to see of it isn’t fantastic. Chara makes fun of Asriel being a crybaby in one of the videos, and Asriel even admits that Chara wasn’t the greatest person. Asriel, even as Flowey, is very dependent on Chara for approval. He just goes along with anything and never says ‘no’ until they’re both dying. So… not amazing.

We know Chara held a lot of contempt for humanity, but decorations in their room would seem to indicate they cared a lot about their monster family. And Chara and Asriel shared BFF lockets. Chara genuinely seemed to feel like they could confide in their brother. So… not awful, either.

TBH, I don’t interpret their relationship as being *as* abusive as some people do. I think we need to remember that we’re talking about 8 - 11 year olds and that kids that age are just kind of crappy to each other. It doesn’t justify poor behavior, but it’s somewhat normal to go through? I was mean and dumb when I was 10, and I thought I was smarter and better than everyone. Hating humanity aside, I don’t feel like I was all that different from Chara when I was a kid.

Compounded with whatever “unhappy reasons” Chara came to the mountain for in the first place, I think some of their behavior is more forgivable as an angry child adjusting to a good environment. I don’t think we ever get a clear sense of how long Chara lived with the Dreemurs, so it could be that with time they would’ve calmed down more.

Their relationship maybe isn’t healthy– Chara is manipulative, dismissive, and puts down Asriel sometimes, and Asriel builds them up to be something bigger and better than what they really are. But we also don’t get to see the good moments between them? Or *most* moments? I don’t think I have a reason to believe it was totally loveless or something.

IDK I figure them as two realistic kids that do some dumb stuff.

And that however crappy their real relationship was, the events within Undertale are the moment where they either double down on what was bad about the relationship (Asriel’s complete subservience to Chara, Chara’s perceived identity as a demon with The Only Opinion Here That Matters), or grow up and do better (Asriel admitting his sibling was flawed, Chara encouraging you to SAVE Asriel).

[simonsoys]

Do you ever think about the similarities between Flowey and Shadow the hedgehog? Because i do

I had not, but I’m glad that this is a thing I get to think about now.

I guess I can see where you’re coming from, too. I’d say that while they both have identity issues being their core character arcs, they’re not totally the same.

Shadow acts according to what he thinks Maria wanted (in SA2 anyway), and has to be convinced that he’s misinterpreting her words with his own anger and desire for vengeance. Flowey is acting according to what he knows Chara wanted, and has to be convinced that their harmful worldview wasn’t the best way.

But I guess at the center of their characters, they’re both people who have to put aside anger in favor of love and forgiveness. Both aren’t really sure what they exist for anymore. And also they’re experiments gone horribly wrong.

But… I tend to see Shadow as someone with a little more agency. In the later games, he largely decides who he is on his own. Shadow’s just confused and bitter about circumstances that were out of his control. Flowey wants validation and to correct what he believes to be his own mistake, and who he becomes is mostly up to the way you act.

IDK feel free to send me another ask elaborating on your thoughts because honestly I’m getting such a kick out of it.

[simonsoys]

-Edgelord -Had a best friend who fell ill and then was killed and he (most likely) blames himself for it. -Wanted to take revenge on the humanity because of it. -swearing. -was unconcious (dead) for a long time after incident -is considered a science experiment gone wrong. -Woke up with kind of fuzzy memories than then flooded back. -Tsundere -Has time control related powers -Shadow would call his attacks the same as Asriel did.

Haha, that’s hilarious! I hadn’t even really thought about the time control aspect.

Still, I think some of these are kiiinda stretching it. (I can’t even recall whether Flowey swears in the game? Besides calling you an idiot.)

…But particularly in that Flowey’s vengeance isn’t soley for Chara. IIRC Flowey’s not even really IN IT for vengeance? But to prove he’s learned his lesson and understands ‘the truth’ now. He hurts other monsters as much as humans, so it doesn’t seem revenge-motivated. Flowey is still very much motivated by Chara’s approval and manipulation. And when it’s not that, it’s plain boredom and apathy.

Shadow, on the other hand, is 100% about judgment and giving the people of earth what they deserve. Maria was a totally innocent party, so I feel like his character copes with that cruelty more.

I’ll give you that Flowey seems to blame himself for the failure on the surface– it was his reluctance to kill that got them both murdered. He knows now that “it’s kill or be killed.” Either fight, or be weak– Hmmmm.

Lmao, nahhh.