#forever meta

[mswyrr]

Jo and Henry

Most romances on tv and in film are about “one true love” and I really liked that this show was sending the message that you, even if you’re mortal, can have more than one “true love” in your life. They’re not mutually exclusive. Jo truly loved her husband and Henry truly loved Abigail. But you don’t have to live an empty life or refuse to embrace love going forward - that’s no way to honor what you had.

Pretty cool. And it’s the kind of thing that mostly older people deal with, losing a life-long love to death. Since stories don’t tend to focus on older characters, those themes are not the focus of most media. But there are tons of people whose lives, because of tragedy or mental health or other circumstances, don’t follow the “normal” life pattern. And the ideal pattern of “one true love” excludes even more people. It was really cool for Jo to be one of those people and find, in the strange miracle/curse of Henry’s life, true understanding. And for both of them to honor love while trying to embrace life.

[mswyrr]

final thoughts on “forever” abc

I thought Adam made for a really good villain to an especially kindly protagonist. IMO he qualifies as a “shadow” villain because he’s so similar originally to Henry--they both died the first time trying to protect someone--but over 2000 years he’s become a monster. “This is what becomes of a decent man,” Adam says - instead of the usual fear of death mortals have, Henry has this fear of the loss of self in time. Having all that you are grow thin the way Adam feels “thin” - like there’s an emptiness there where more used to be. To die in all the ways that matter while your body continues on, while you do things abhorrent to the person you were.

If a villain was one note evil and fully external (rather than an external representation of Henry’s deepest fear) then it would be - what, about him being brave in the face of physical danger? That poses no threat. Or the danger of losing those he loves? Time itself will do that - and it’s better to have time be the biggest enemy. Reminds me of what Michael’s mother said about time on Discovery: that it strips everything away from you.

Exploring the greatest fear of an immortal also means, in a much cooler way than usual, affirming mortal life: casting our eyes on how time itself is one of the dimensions where our limits within it are constitutive of our “selves” and losing those could be a horror too. It’s a deeper affirmation of life than the usual: you appreciate it more because it’s fleeting! thing.

I mean, that’s fine. But: you *exist as yourself* because you have dimensions in physical space *and* time which define you and without those you’d be be facing down the kind of terror Henry feels when he looks at Adam and what he might become.... good stuff!!

Mortality doesn’t just make me savor the moment because it’s fleeing, it makes me *me* instead of someone else. Gravity is pushing me down; it’s also holding me together, giving me the ground to walk on instead of floating in space. Time is killing me, it is also giving me the road to walk before me, and a certain me I recognize to walk it. Stripped of that, how would I float free? How would I still be myself? And for how long?

And, again, Adam is particularly useful for such a gentle hero because nothing short of hitting on his very worst fear/the potential future shadow self he is running from, would bring out his darker side - the resolution where he, as a doctor, can do something crueler than mere death to Adam was /kisses fingers/

Henry’s true enemy is time and his truest villain is the self he might become if he cannot make an ally of death and “kill” that future self from existing.

I wish the show had gone on longer! But what’s there is some good stuff.

[mswyrr]

Jo Martinez thoughts

I really like her. I thought the writing was stronger on the front half of the season and took some missteps on the second half, though.

I really liked how it started out - she’s a widow in her 30s, so she’s alienated from other people in her age cohort who have partners and kids. Hanson, for example, tries to reach out to her, but there’s a barrier there. She can’t share the parent stories, or the married people jokes. And if she goes by his house for dinner his family would be wonderful to her, but it would be, for her, like watching all this happiness that was taken from her. In addition to being just sort of awkward... what do we talk about? What do we have in common?

Are they going to pity me and try to hide it or try to push me to get back to living sooner than I can so I’ll have to feel guilty about that?

In the middle of that experience, the two people she bonds with the closest are outside her age group. First there’s Henry, who’s in a similar spot as her: seemingly 30something, should be living the prime of his life, but he’s basically a widower and the grief is still fresh for him because of how time passes for him and his lingering questions. He instantly understands where she’s coming from. He offers quiet understanding and acceptance that she feels. He tells her the things he himself has struggled with doing, like finding a way to really live again after a bereavement. But he doesn’t push and being around him doesn’t feel raw with guilt or pity or awkwardness like it does with other people who seem to be her same age.

I LOVED all of that. It recognized that if certain tragedies or other things befall you in life, you can end up as alienated from your “proper” age cohort as Henry is from people who are the age he seems to be. That was some thoughtful writing IMO. I’ve definitely felt that myself. For other reasons than Jo’s but it was still satisfying to see that acknowledged - and so lovely how it created a bond between these two people who were otherwise so different.

Jo then bonds with her lieutenant, Joanna Reece, over the guy she had to kill and the burdens of their chosen profession. Reece is older and has a perspective that, again, is accepting. She knows when to understand and when to push a bit. They hang out together at the shooting range and it feels like real companionship. I really liked that. I wish they had continued to develop that: what if throwing herself into work and wanting to rise (to take an LT test herself or something? Forgive me, I don’t know how the NYPD works) was part of how Jo coped?

Instead, well, first the plotlines mesh up, with Henry having to kill for the first time in 200 years - that switching of roles, where suddenly she’s the “expert” in this grief and able to lend him acceptance and advice was really great. Dovetailed well, allowed Jo to have her own story but also... well, you know, Jo is to Henry what Ash is to Michael over on DSC: well written love interest (though Jo IMO started out as also a second lead and that felt like it waned a bit? IDK.) What’s happening to them has to relate to what’s happening to the lead because that’s how narrative economy works

I thought it was a rather elegant way of making it work though. So it was all good up to that point! And they could have gone some other directions with the echoes/resonances, maybe dealt with Jo’s family more? Since Henry’s story is all about family in this lovely way. IDK.

But then they made what I felt was their one major misstep, which was starting the romance plot full gear for her *before* the “secret reveal” plot. Henry’s prior major loves, Nora and Abigail, both found out after they were in love with him and responded according to their own personalities (Nora was a very normal person who couldn’t handle it, Abigail had the inner grit to embrace it, though she did struggle too as she got older especially).

Okay, so they’ve done that pattern twice - woman falls in love, finds out. Why not let Jo find out as a close friend first? Keep the romance on a slooooow boil. Let her go through all the wonderful angst and complexities of being in on the secret as a dear, close friend. Becoming part of the kin group: I especially think her and Abe would have a lot of bonding to do. Abe has been quite lonely in his singular role of knowing and looking out for his dad. That could have been lovely! And then she could, over the next few seasons, actually be unique: the first person to fall in love with this guy knowing him as he truly is, rather than having to adjust after.

I particularly would have LOVED if she’d actually got to spend some time knowing that he was like her, a widower who feels displaced in part because of that loss. Instead it’s all just this subtext that she feels the depth of and we get but she is not allowed to understand.

It would also mean that when Henry finally discovers that Abigail is dead for certain he would be able to turn to Jo about that and we could get that from another angle, their bonding as a widower and widow. And, for his part, I think Henry needed to be shoved into the deep end IMO re: having his secret revealed and letting go of control on his end and then choosing to stay and deal with that with Jo.

Instead, in keeping the secret from her so long and turning up the flame on the romance from her pov - well, it keeps her sidelined from what is the real emotional/thematic/plot core of the show. So she has to be in the unfortunate role of being lied to and deceived at every turn, of playing a barrier to plot progression, someone to be gotten around. And, since Henry isn’t letting go of control, her falling while he’s still lying to her feels like the power dynamic emotionally which was so keenly balanced and lovely goes a bit wobbly.

I was delighted that the finale ended with her pushing for real answers! And I felt Abe’s “tell her!” in my bones. But even if that had been the first plot of S2, I do still think the choice to have the romance plot heat up faster than the secret reveal would have been a less than optimal option. For my tastes.

No shade on the series: it wasn’t a fatal mistake or terribly awful or anything. But I did feel like they kept all the plates spinning better in the first half of the season. Still, I really enjoyed the special stuff they did with her story (an actual 30something “displaced” from time/her age cohort vs. our lead who just looks like it) and I liked the romance in theory and in execution most of the time, just not as much in the final arc of S1.

[darkshrimpemotions]

So I know a lot of us headcanon Henry as kinky, but I think it’s less that he’s kinky for kink’s sake (though he does enjoy it) and more that after living for over 200 years, Henry’s slowly becoming more and more of a thrill-seeker in all areas of his life. That’s what draws him out into the field with Jo. That’s what finally convinces him to open up to the team. And it’s also what prompts him to seek ever more diverse and...interesting sexual experiences. Like role playing at a fucking crime scene Henry, what the fuck.

[ijustreallylovedaredevil]

I kinda wonder what Abraham did with his life. Because I mean, we saw him as a child, but that doesn't give us much insight into his life. And apparently he fought in the Vietnam war, but again, that's not a career or anything. And I'm fairly certain the antique business is relatively new, like, last twenty years or so. There's a mention in one episode that he went to Berkeley (which is in California), but what did he study? If anything?

So what did he do before that?

I only wonder because he was very good with a needle in the pilot. I just feel like he would be really good at nursing.

(Also, do I want to know where they got the medical equipment from? Probably not.)