Classic Rock Magazine interview with Cardinal Copia, translated below the cut:
Before the album will be released in June you’re already on tour, and you constantly have these interview marathons. How does that affect your current mood?
Well, it’s a bit like running. Just because you love to run, it doesn’t mean it’s good for your knees. (laughs)
Not really. But with progressing age and because I should be ready for a two hour stage show in two months, for 200 shows, I have to get fit.
But that is probably already second nature to you…
Yes, but your body needs a certain degree of maintenance. No matter how young you feel, it’s more extreme every year. When you’re on tour, you’re somehow always doing sports. In the end your stage clothes won’t fit right anymore, are far too wide, and when you get your new outfits before the next tour, everything is suddenly super tight. (laughs) I have considerable fluctuation in my sizing, and those fluctuations get bigger with age.
Do you notice that things get harder the older you get? Not that I’m calling you old.
Well, I’m 37. That’s not old, but I’m not 19 anymore, either. Of course there’s a difference. But I still have the feeling I haven’t reached the top.
There’s still room upwards, the zenith hasn’t been reached yet?
I think so. Considering that I’m not athletic, I believe there’s still more I can get out of myself. I take better care of myself now than I used to, I stopped smoking six years ago and that improved a lot of things. So there’s a lot of potential upwards: if I start eating vitamins now, maybe it’ll be even a little better.
So you’re not doing that at the moment?
(laughs) Well, it’s hard to pull myself together when I’m not on tour. As soon as I’m touring I work better. I have more routine.
That’s unexpected: a lot of artists complain about the lack of routine while on tour.
No, that’s how I feel when I get home. Then I lose all control. But as all artists I’m a little bit spoiled. (whispers from behind his hand) Okay, actually I’m very spoiled. (laughs) I get a lot of help. Especially on tour, when there’s people all the time that are there for you. Sometimes when I travel alone I get confused: Wait, I have to check in myself? Uhm, can somebody please come and handle this situation for me? (laughs) But I like travelling alone, so I have to do things myself again. Everyone reading this probably thinks this sounds incredibly dumb. But most people are creatures of habit, and you get used quickly to certain circumstances. And when you get so pampered, it’s just weird when you get home and have to cook for the first time in eight weeks…
And even have to get the groceries yourself beforehand.
Oh, exactly! Just getting this chain of thoughts right. Of course that actually just takes a second, but you lack the routine. I like to say we resemble dogs or other animals a lot. We’re conditioned and we condition ourselves. There are of course ways to condition bad behavior or laziness away.
But because you reflect on these things, maybe you’re not that heteronomous.
Well, I’m at least aware of some things. That’s what I have to be if I don’t want to become a complete asshole. (laughs)
So the tour starts in May…
Exactly, in Riverside, California. We’re going to play some warm up concerts, even if I actually don’t want to call them that. But it’s about perfecting the show, to flesh out the finesse. The tour also starts before the album. That means we’ll be playing a lot of songs people haven’t heard before. That could get a little weird.
I’ve listened to PREQUELLE already and I’m sure that the devoted Ghost fanbase is hungry for new material, and that a few of the new songs have great earworm potential. There’s nothing that could go wrong, right?
I hope so. But there’s no guarantee. I’m currently at a point, where I’m a little bit afraid of the start. On one hand I long to be back on stage, and I especially miss the fans, the connection to them. On the other hand there’s going to be a lot of innovations, even practical in nature. And again I’m a creature of habit, and I don’t like trying new things.
But you seem to enjoy the mental creation of something new…
Yes, I love it. I love having ideas, but when it comes to execution, it always feels weird at first. There’s a lot of pressure and usually the joy of creating is long gone by the time of the performance. I prefer the point of time when after 80 shows things run smoothly. Then I can enjoy everything, when I know everything is running in sync.
Is that a regular ailment in your line of work, or is there a bigger uncertainty behind it?
Both, I think. I believe that for most artists, whether rock musician or painter, creativity grows from uncertainty. Just look at those rock bands: most of those guys weren’t the cool kids at school.
Not really. Rock’n’roll is usually a way to become cool anyway…
Exactly. It’s a paradox: Once your career is going, there’s risk of losing it. While the things that started your career were based on the fact that you didn’t have anything to lose. It’s something that you realize more and more the further you get. Probably a question of age, too. At some point you just know it better and don’t throw yourself off any cliffs. Even though you’re bound to jump from cliff to cliff in this kind of job, even if there’s a black pit between.
Do you feel under pressure after Meliora’s great success?
Yes, but it wasn’t a paralyzing fear. Rather I was aware that I had to stay focused, and that a lot depended on the album becoming, well, right. I don’t actually want to say “right” because you can’t really determine what’s wrong or right. Especially when you create, there are different things you can do right. You still have to get it right to create a feeling that can move the organism forward. It’s like a relationship, it’s not enough to say “We’re going to have a child now, then everything is going to be fine.” There’s just more to it, and you need the feeling of moving forward, not sideways or even backwards. Every time you have the unknown before you, which is tempting and intimidating at once. Because you don’t know what you did before. You created something that opened up a great scope of new opportunities. So you can’t make the same decision again, because you already went through that door. It’s like a game, you can’t just walk backwards, except maybe if you hack it. But that’s usually not how it works.
So there’s no magic formula that you can keep using?
Not really. I learned that a lot of the things and circumstances that lead me to this album this past year - most of it actually rather uncomfortable - were necessary to make the album what it is now. And maybe the entire band-brand-career had to be doused with a bit of classic rock scandal, so it was able to develop further. Otherwise it might have become redundant on the long run, along the lines of: we got a new papa again. Oh, I’m still anonymous. How great!
Okay, now that you’re mentioning the topic yourself: when you revealed your identity officially last year, how necessary did that feel? Was it just a part of marketing, or did you think “well, it’s out anyway”?
Yes, mostly that. I just thought, now that the elephant is in the room and glows so brightly it’s hard to not give any commentary. I wouldn’t say I felt forced. I was in the studio, recording the new album. I didn’t plan it. But would you have asked me that a few years ago, I wouldn’t have approached it like this, even though I always knew I wouldn’t stay unrecognized forever. Not that I felt very anonymous. I always felt more like I was playing in a masked band, not an anonymous one. There’s a difference. The focus of Ghost’s fans wasn’t on me personally. They didn’t care what kind of shoes I wore off stage. All in all the people didn’t give a shit. But I was of the opinion that I would have to do it sooner or later, and I had the feeling that now it was time.
What has changed for you and your fans since then? Because I think there were a bunch who were very eager to get the official confirmation of who’s behind the mask. There have always been rumors, something that surely was intentional, i assume? The creation of a myth?
Actually the original intention behind it was more pure. That might sound set-up now with my commercial band that has to meet certain commercial standards. It obviously sounds like a marketing recipe, but the original spark behind this idea had a highly artistic claim and was based on the wish to play theater. It turned out the anonymity was a great advertising tool. A tool that I had to restructure in the last year. But it worked out, and one of the things that distinguish Ghost the most from most other bands today, was that we didn’t smear our personality all over the place. Well, aside from all this damned court bullshit! But now it’s on me to chose the context I want to present Ghost in, and to what extend I want to smear my personality into your faces.
What I won’t do is do everything. I’ll still insist that magazines only print pictures with the masks, because that’s the interesting part about Ghost. I sit here in front of you as the director of the show in which I play a role at the same time. But all in all, when you look at my job description, performing is only a tiny part of that. I have to take care of a lot of things. I mean I used to be that little tyke who just wanted to be in a band, and in my 30s I was suddenly catapulted into this situation here: I became the initiator of the band, the singer, even though I only wanted to play guitar, I’m a boss, an employer and I have responsibilities towards so many instances. That’s not something I had ever thought of back when I practised Pink Floyd songs in my room. And… ah fuck now I lost my thread. Well, let’s look at it from a practical point of view: Just because I did that radio show and because I’m talking to you unmasked now, there’s no difference except that there’s Tobias Forge sitting here now. But I’m still talking about the same things as before. You know, I’m not going to get a facebook profile or IG because of this and start posting constantly.
So everything at Ghost stays the same in the sense of: this won’t change the concept?
Ghost won’t change, but the myth around it will.
So you won’t walk onto stage, arms stretched wide, remove your makeup and shout “It’s me! Your messiah!”
Exactly that won’t happen. I’m just director. Right now I’m commenting like a producer would for a movie.
Besides your vocal performance you’re also very entertaining. You make people laugh. When did you discover those qualities?
Hm. I know I’ve always wanted to do this, but there’s no fixed point in time when I suddenly noticed that I’m capable of that. I thin my first performance was in kindergarten. My friends and me always dressed up and acted out playback to music. On brooms. (laughs) The first time I performed in front of people I was seven. It was the birthday party of a friend and her mother had a yellow [Guitar] that looked exactly like the guitar of Keith Richards. I was a big fan of the Stones and asked if I could play. And her mother was surprised, but she put up an amplifier and I played for her. Then she said I should play in front of the other kids, and I remember there was a little disco set up in the kid’s room, you know, with lights and music. And I regaled them with Love in Vain by the stones. It was basically my first show. But just this one song, and then it was over again… And then of course I destroyed the guitar. (Attention, Irony!)
A classic “The Who”! I’m sure the mother was very hooked by you.
There’s one thing that I really want to know: last year after your concert in Munich I wrote a report for this magazine and noted, that there’s quite the sexual atmosphere are your show. My male colleagues thought me crazy. Are you aware of how the practise of disguise and these occult vibes that play with the aesthetic of dark rites and masses makes the air quiver?
I would have to be blind and autistic to not notice this magic. I think that especially in rock’n’roll it’s important to have a certain tension. Let it put me like this: I used to be pretty naive and never really thought about a potential of this kind of masked people on stage. Because at first I thought we would mostly appeal to guys....
Yes, I really was. And that’s something that really hit me on our first tour through america. That was the first time we played our own shows for our own fans. It was a completely different dynamic than as support slot. And back then I thought: Wow, fuck! And then I truly realized the shows have an aphrodisiac effect on people. (laughs) Which is interesting, because even from stage I saw people who were really going for it and were doing things that you don’t see every day. And often I didn’t actually know whether they had sex or not. (laughs) It’s of course a flattering thought that my work can cause such processes that affect people even long after the concert. If it brings something in motion, it’s amazing. So to answer your question: Yes, I understand it. And I’m not surprised that there’s different perceptions between genders, and that women might feel the sexual aura more than men.
And connected to that the aesthetical concept probably plays a big role as well. The occult symbolism maybe only affects certain people… like me for example.
Yes, and the concept of attraction can be so multifaceted. Have you ever watched Pippi Longstockings? Can you remember the characters?
Well, all the animals, and Annika and Tommy…
Do you remember Aunt Pryssellius? The lady from the children’s home. My entire life I’ve only ever seen her as old toad. And now that I have children my wife and I showed them all those old series, partially because now we finally have an excuse to watch them again. (laughs) And then I noticed that her role here is suddenly really hot. Maybe I should google this, not that I’m confusing things. (searches through his phone) Well, up until this point I had never seen it that way, because I had always been convinced she’s this 70 year old bitch. But recently I thought: Oh lala, my god! (laughs)
Perspectives change! (laughs)
Absolutely. And I think it’s the same with a guy who probably doesn’t even notices what happens during a ghost show, and maybe the next time he suddenly realizes. Oh look, now I found them. The actress’s name is Margot Trooger, take a look at her! (show picture on his phone)
Yes, really. Well, I’m glad you like the show. We’re going to have three women in the band now, maybe with that it’s going to be more exciting for the male audience.
All in all it will be nine musicians, right? Will the women wear the same ghoul outfits?
Yes exactly, all in all we will be nine people, and yes, the clothes will definitely be similar. We just need more people to be able to play what you can hear on the album live, too.
Will you bring a saxophonist?
That brings me to the new album and the song “Miasma”. When I listened to the instrumental in the middle of Prequelle for the first time, I was astounded and very quickly delighted. This “saber rider” like sound with the poppy 80s drums and synths, and the saxophone at the end. Tell me something about the creation of this piece.
We have already recorded instrumentals, like for example genesis on our debut. That was still a whole song, whereas on Infestissumam and Meliora we abandoned that a little bit. I think when me and Klaus - the producer - compiled the album we wussed out on the instrumentals a little.
And now you’re back with Miasma, and the second one Helvetesfonster?
Yes, that’s how it feels. I mean we had short pieces before like Devil’s Church, all of them small discreet numbers. Helvetesfonster for example was done way before Miasma, before even Meliora. But while we were working on this album I told Klaus: “I have a futuristic and a plague album, which one do you want to make?” And he decided on the futuristic one. So Helvetesfonster didn’t make it onto Meliora and I had to get it onto Prequelle at all costs. So it easily falls out of context. And during the recording of Helvetesfonster I had the idea for Miasma and i thought: Oh, fuck it. We made way too few instrumentals, we should just jam this at the wall and see what happens. Along the lines of: Let’s not play it save and just see where it takes us. On the other hand we had these two tracks ready and I had this urgent need for another song to complement and in a way justify them. This is how Dance Macabre was created, because the album needed a danceable break. Miasma ends on the A side and you turn the LP and the B side starts with Dance. It’s about dynamics, that’s direly needed. Everytime I write I work like this. If there’s a lot of salt somewhere, you have to sprinkle some sugar in places, to balance it out.
Why did you pick a french sounding title for this album, instead of sticking to latin and italian?
It just sounds better. PREQUELLE instead of prequel. That’s it.
Okay. We got more of a medieval setting here. It’s about death and damnation, there’s songs about the plague, rats as carriers of disease, stuff like that. I think that despite this archaic core Prequelle delivers versatile opportunities of a modern interpretation. Am I on the right track?
It’s very loosely draped around the middle ages. To show how things were and are now, and to draw a line in between. But I also think there’s contemporary relevance inside the lyrics that have no connection to history lessons. It’s actually about now, but for aesthetic reasons and to show how things repeat, the medieval theme fits very well. Everything is somehow cyclic, not much has changed. I think we devolved a little. Nowadays people dismiss the middle ages as mob mentality, see it as something uncivilized, but there’s no big difference to the habits people exhibit online. It’s very similar: Somebody cries “Witch!” real loud and everyone joins in immediately. On the whole, the album should put the listener into the center of change and riot. And should, in a way, give social commentary that questions the health of our society. I think we live in times where in many places there’s an eminent threat of destruction and damnation present.
Do you see yourself as an intellectual?
Had I put my priorities differently, I probably would had assets to become wiser than I am today. But I never read as much as I wanted to, and I don’t know a lot. Or rather I know a lot, but not everything. (laughs)
I just think maybe I have a gift for a certain kind of knowledge and wisdom.
And you are in a situation where people hear what you have to say.
Yes, that’s true. And this realization follows another one: At the end of the day I’m perfectly content not to be a professor or politician. I’m an artist. And my mission is to entertain people. Obviously you work with everything you have and see. So I value it a lot that, in front of the vast background of rock’n’roll and its usually more dumb bands, Ghost presents itself a little more intellectual. But in the end it’s all about entertainment.
Before I came here I received this list of dos and don’ts…
With notes that explain what I should say and what I shouldn’t. I couldn’t exactly tell how serious or ironical that was meant to be.
Don’t forget, that came from the label.
So personally you don’t find that necessary?
Well, since I’m currently in a trial, there’s obviously some things I am not allowed to nor want to talk about. But if you had asked me, I would have just answered with “no comment”.
So you wouldn’t have kicked me out if I had asked for the connection between the concept of Ghost and Kiss. I just spotted a Love Gun button on your jacket….
No, of course not. And Love Gun was the first album I ever bought. I love this album.
For conclusion: What’s a question that you would like to be asked in an interview?
I wish I had a cool answer for this ready. (laughs) But I keep digging up all this information about me, and from a more casual point of view it would be more fun for the both of us if you asked me questions about other bands, because I would be able to answer those. Or not. (laughs) Just because I like the thought of participating in a quiz on band trivia.
I promise I’ll prepare one the next time we meet!
(laughs) That would be amazing, thank you.
