#goner theory

[tylerjosephsheavydirtysoul]

[napstamuse]

Also, forgot to add this little bit: Would Papyrus only have Karmic Retribution if he used Gaster Blasters, or is he just holding back his power in the neutral/pacifist runs?

I think that Papyrus is likely holding back in the neutral/pacifist runs. One thing that makes me think this is that he is literally the only boss who can’t kill you, not even on accident. Papyrus always stops before you actually die.

Other monsters don’t really seem to have that level of control over magic - even Toriel, a Boss Monster, can kill you accidentally. This seems to indicate that something pushed Papyrus to gain complete command over the deadliness of his magic. And what better motivator for total control than incredibly dangerous magical energy, especially with a brother who only has 1 HP?

[napstamuse]

Just a quick little question for the Goner Theory. I personally don't see how Sans is weaker than Papyrus. I always thought they would have the exact same amount if power, with Sans having Karmic Retribution, and Papyrus having high stats. Also, why wouldn't sans be able to change his stats as well, if he was injected with determination. I dunno, maybe I misread the theory or misunderstood the theory.

I hadn’t really considered Sans’ KR, to be totally honest. I suppose that would definitely give him some points in the attack department. To be honest, this kind of brought my attention to a flaw in this part Goner Theory - “strength” is pretty ambiguously defined. It’s a matter of opinion, going by what’s currently there.

So, let’s make it not ambiguous, and get right down to hard numbers:

First up, on attack - the attack stats you see in-game and the attack stats that the game actually uses are completely different. For example, even though Toriel shows an ATK of 80 when using Check, her attack value in the code is actually either 6 or 8, depending on the situation. I’ll refer to this as True Attack, for clarity.

Keeping that in mind, Papyrus is of about equal strength to quite a few different monsters, including nearly all the Hotland monsters, Toriel, Mettaton EX, and Asriel. Sans, however, is still at just 1.

But, that doesn’t mean that Papyrus is automatically the strongest! I think the real indicator of this is how much damage they’re capable of dealing per second.

Normally, you have 20 invincibility frames, which at 30 FPS, equates to just under 1 second of invincibility after an attack. When wearing the Cloudy Glasses and Torn Notebook, this goes up to 35 frames, or just above 1 second. This practically guarantees you’ll only be hit 1 to 2 times per bullet round.

This is where Sans’ advantage comes in - he may only deal one dmg per hit, but his fight takes away your invincibility frames. This means that Sans is capable of dealing up to 30 DMG per second.

Assuming an average bullet round length of around 5 seconds and that the player is getting hit whenever they possibly can, this means that Papyrus could deal a max of about 56 Damage, while Sans could deal 150.

So, going by pure strength, yes - Sans is, in fact, still the stronger one.

...Unless, of course, we assume Papyrus wields the same magic.

This goes more into the realm of non-canon, but let’s assume that Papyrus’ new “Blasted to...” dialogue indicates that Sans and Papyrus are able to use the same magic, KR included.

In this case, Papyrus would be capable of dealing a whopping 1,200 damage per 5 second round.

So... The answer to “Who is stronger?” comes down to the magic they are capable of. Personally, I think that they do have the same ability, which was one of the biggest points of Goner Theory Pt. 3.

Now, to wrap up this massive text post - on Sans’ DT.

Assuming that Sans worked with Gaster on the DT experiments (or even just that he worked in the True Lab, which definitely has evidence going for it), he likely knows just how powerful and how dangerous it can be. Therefore, I think that Sans probably refrains from using excess DT to bolster his stats for fear of melting away.

[napstamuse]

Hi! So, I have a question: In part 2 of your Goner Theory, it sounds like Gaster saw the remains of an actual No Mercy timeline. My question is who/what caused this timeline? Also, Gaster was injected with enough determination to save/Reset; does that mean that he needed the DT to work his time machine and the machine enabled him to mess with time, or could he mess with time by himself and the machine just analyzed his findings? Does the DT power the machine, or...?

Hello!

Gaster saw the remants/effects of a No Mercy timeline due to his experiments - the same ones that actually caused the timeline to happen.

Now, first, on the subject of the machine - I think that the machine itself is what allowed Gaster to access the ability to Reset. But the trouble is, in order to Save/Load or to keep memories through a Reset, you need a LOT of DT. I think that Gaster became aware of this fact, and purposefully injected himself with DT in order to observe the effects of changing the timelines.

Personally, I don’t think there’s enough evidence in the game yet to explain how exactly the machine works/what it’s powered off of, nor how exactly Gaster observed changes in the timeline. I’ve got my guesses, but for now, I’d like to stick to things that can be backed up by evidence in-game.

@dimensionalbox and I went a lot more depth with it in Goner Theory 1.5 and 2, but basically Gaster likely gained a higher and higher LV, slowly distanced himself more and more, and was able to do much more drastic things for the sake of scientific results. Eventually, he saw the end of the timeline... And had to see what would happen.

[plts]

goner theory

ok so i’ve been meaning to make this post for awhile, but i just now was able to put my thoughts down somewhat understandably. now this is just a theory. one thing that i love about twenty one pilots is that everyone interprets their songs differently, because they are emotional songs and we will all hear them in a different way. still, i’d really love some other thoughts on this.

as we all know goner was first released in 2012

this version is a lot slower and vaguely more depressing than the 2015 goner from blurryface. the accordion creaking sound is speculated to resemble someone hanging from a noose. but the main thing that i draw from this version is that it is so much slower. why? goner, regardless of what version, is a sadder sounding song. so why speed it up?

in an interview with altpress, tyler says in regard to the blurryface album that “every element was very thought-through, and very intentional.” so there must be a connection. 

drew simms on youtube thought to put the 2015 goner to the 2012 goner speed, and damn are the results amazing. if you get easily freaked out by things, you may want to listen to this during the day and with someone.

if you just listened to it then you know what i mean. if you’d rather wait - then i’ll tell you. this version has made blurryface sing. i know it might seem farfetched, but let’s analyze the lyrics. (also the comments at the bottom of this video are very interesting and reflect some ideas that i’ll talk about so i recommend giving them a quick read)

“i’m a goner” - it’s sad, depressing, and without hope. why? the album blurryface has been the most optimistic album from twenty one pilots. yes, there are sadder songs and moments, but throughout the whole album tyler is singing about how he is overcoming blurryface. why, now, at the end of the album say that he is a goner? it always seemed kind of off to me. yes, there are other ways of interpreting the lyrics, which is great, but personally, i always felt like something was...missing. 

think about the lyrics if they were not sung from tyler’s pov, but blurryface’s. blurryface knows he’s been defeated. he knows that he is no longer in control of tyler.

“though i'm weak and beaten down, i'll slip away into the sound.”

how will blurrface survive? he’s not going to just give up. tyler has said many times that his music is heavily influenced by his inner, darker thoughts - or blurryface. that’s evident, too, just from their music. take the lyric “i’ll slip away into the sound.” i personally never quite understood these. others have said that music is tyler’s escape and that lyric is saying just that. still, it seemed off. but, if this was actually blurryface singing, then it would make so much more sense. the only way that blurryface is able to survive is through tyler’s music. 

literally.

throughout the album, we hear blurryface - he appears in almost every song besides tear in my heart. he repeats more of the morbid lines that really resonate with both tyler and the listener. so in goner, blurryface is literally telling us that he has been defeated, but his ghost will slip into the rest of the music. 

it would be interesting to think that originally burryface isn’t singing in the album, but we only hear his ghost. even in the album vessel, you can hear tyler’s pitched down voice in screen. 

what do you think? again, this is just a theory, but i’d be really interested as to what you guys think. 

wow i probably spent too much time on this. 

r.i.p. sleep

[napstamuse]

Something additional for the Goner theory that I am not sure if mentioned to you before but Sans says 'you'll never see them again' during the battle with Asriel Dreemurr. I think this could further support the theory as Sans... hasn't actually lost anybody at that point... that we know of.

Yep! That’s the thing, there’s a lot of lines from Sans, especially during battles, that you can’t really explain without him having lost both people and a home in the past.

Along with ‘you’ll never see them again’ is ‘just give up. i did’, ‘i quit trying to go back a long time ago’, and ‘take it from me, someday, you gotta learn when to quit.’

These lines, paired with Sans’ mysterious workshop, seem to indicate that Sans was working to fix a machine and somehow go back to where (or when) he came from. This is even further supported by the new ‘don’t forget’ note. He’s trying so hard not to forget where he came from and who he knew. Because even though he says he’s given up, there’s obviously some small hope there, somewhere.

Deep down, Sans is still trying to go home.

[dimensionalbox]

So what would you guys think if I wrote a story version of the Goner Theory?

Someone on Reddit’s doing a comic that apparently follows part of it, and @pretale is based on our theory, but this would be a “story-fied” version of the entire thing, with holes like Papyrus’ involvement filled in with stuff not based on canon. Should I give it a go?

[dimensionalbox]

Here’s some Fridge Horror about the GONER Theory

This is based on the theory me and @napstamuse came up with so go read that or it won’t make any sense. Since the period in which Gaster experimented with resets became a self-contained loop, and anyone “within the loop” lost their memories with each reset, Gaster’s descent into insanity would instead appear to be him just “snapping” one day. To anyone who didn’t remember what he did over his countless resets, one minute he’d be his usual self, and the next minute he’d be cackling to himself in Wingdings and trying to cause the goddamned apocalypse. And what’s even worse is that the reactions to him would be very, very different from meeting a Genocidal Human. The monsters would know Gaster. He’s the Dead Timeline’s Royal Scientist, so he’d be at least as well known as Alphys is in the Alpha Timeline. He’d have friends, maybe even family, and he’d turn his weapons on them seemingly out of the blue. Suddenly, or at least to them, he’d be a completely different person; the Gaster they knew would have disappeared overnight, replaced with a creature they might barely recognize as one of their own. And Sans has to live with the fact that he was the only one who saw it coming and did nothing to stop it.