ok but what if spamton’s whole deal with trying and trying to reach heaven (especially with the eventual use of machinery) and then his body “dying” when he’s finally free enough to “reach heaven” but continuing to live after that happens (cut his strings, became normal body) is a parallel to Gaster’s body “dying” (split across space and time, + his fall seems to be suicide coded) in an attempt to get closer to the Angel/reality? (Which worked—we literally talk to him in deltarune and on twitter)
Might make a longer post abt this when i have free time i can’t stop thinking about it now
So I have a stupid deltarune and undertale theory or more like speculation/headcanon but what are theory’s if not that (this is gonna be a long one buckle up)
Tw it has topics undertale and deltarune talk about so suicide death abuse ect
so I was looking at deltarune chapter 5 fanart and came across one (it had yellow and blue falling into the underground at the same time in undertale) and it made me think that yellow in deltarune probably fell into the underground ground by committing suicide and maybe that he and blue committed double suicide or something (dazai’s wish fr) and then I wondered what happened in undertale canon like why did the kids fall into the underground (this is assuming that the undertale soul kids are the same as the flower counterparts in deltarune) so we no that chara probably jumped do to there home life on the surface although we don’t really no all that much be we no more then the other souls and frisk seems to have tripped but we aren’t sure what they where doing up there in the first place I’ve seen people say they where dared,they went to explore, heard rumours that the monsters where down there or that kids always disappeared there,that they went to jump and just so happened to trip ect ect BUT what about the others-if where assuming that the kids where the same as the deltarune flowers witch we are it’s pretty likely yellow jumped or maybe went to look for the missing kids you no justice and all that maybe even both he went to find them and couldn’t so he felt like a failure and jumped now do I think it’s likely that yellow and blue went down at the same time not really no it could be true but we haven’t had any indication that any of the children fell at the same time or where even there at the same time so I’m assuming they they didn’t im also pretty sure aqua was playing and fell in orange probably got dared to go up there maybe it was a test of bravery probably something like *hey your such a coward* and then orange would say no I’m not yada yada she gets dared to go up there or maybe even jump in - for the others I’m gonna be honest I’ve got no clue I’ve got ideas sure but I don’t think there very likely we would need more on there home life’s in undertale like why would they be there for green we at least no they probably stayed with toriel for a while and then died at asgroe maybe even gave up there soul with their personality they at least probably went back at some point but why would they be up in the mountains in the first place they don’t seem like the explorer type and we have no reason to think they’d wanna jump with the info we have maybe they where camping idk at least with Seth it’s possible they had a reason to be up there maybe they where researching or maybe they where bullied and went up there to hide or where bullied into jumping like pressured into it but idk
And for blue I’m even more lost like maybe he new yellow and new he was last seen in the mountains and jumped after him or killed himself to be with yellow under the assumption that yellow was dead that could also maybe explain the massacre in waterfall if it was done because (this might be nul and void if he fell before yellow in witch case you could give this motivation to yellow) he found out the monsters killed yellow or at least that’s what he heard because he doesn’t seem like the type to mindlessly kill he doesn’t even want to fight in the first place so why would he kill even if he didn’t want to die he could have just try’d to fight asgore maybe he found yellows stuff or heard he died and then went for revenge but if this isn’t true I have no idea why he would be up in the mountains or want to kill himself
Anyway I’d love to hear everyone’s else’s opinions on this if any,if you want to see the art I’m talking about I’ll link it
Also sorry there’s no yellow or dark blue in the colour words option 😭
Re-examining "Goners", and what they mean for Deltarune
A dissection of the primary Goner concepts.
Disclaimers
This post is made from my own discoveries. If an analysis similar to this already exists, please view this as my own take on the same subject matter.
This was originally part of a larger theory I am working on, made standalone for organization and linking purposes.
Analysis
Goners as we know them are not present in Deltarune. This does not mean they are irrelevant to Deltarune. As they are mirror universes, it’s helpful for us to first define what Goners are and what their narrative purpose is in order for us to apply that knowledge to Deltarune.
Goner is the term used to refer to a group of characters within Undertale defined by a set group of behavior. For the purposes of this post, to be considered a Goner, a character must do three things: only appear on certain FUN values, appear monochrome grayscale in color, and typically will disappear after speaking to them and exiting the room. Additionally, they tend to have a cryptic manner of speaking. There are five characters commonly agreed to be Goners, three of which mention W.D. Gaster by name. These three are referred to by the fanbase as Gaster Followers due to their dialogue which gives exposition to Gaster and his whereabouts. (They will be referred to as Followers during this post for coherency.)
Functionally, Goners signal to the viewer that they are distinct from normal NPCs both visually and textually, so from a meta perspective, there must be some reason these five characters specifically are set apart from the others. In order to know why, we need to find an underlying thread—something that all of them have in common, aside from appearances. And to understand the connection between all five Goners, we need to examine the two non-Gaster Followers closer. The three Followers have connections to each other due to the subject matter they speak of (which we can ignore, for now) but the other two are much less obvious, so any connection that may exist won't be found in the Followers.
The first of the two non-Follower Goners is known as Goner Kid. They have unique dialogue referring to a "world in which [they] do not exist" and are the only known Goner to not disappear after interaction, instead only disappearing if spoken to a second time while Frisk is holding an umbrella; in which case, they have additional dialogue about how it isn't raining, but the umbrella "make[s] [them] feel a little better about this." They then ask Frisk to forget about them, and disappear after the player exits the room.
The final Goner is Clam Girl who, under most circumstances, is not technically a Goner at all, but whose existence is still tied to a FUN value. In a normal or pacifist route with a FUN value between 80 and 89, Clam Girl will appear in Waterfall and mention “Suzy”, her neighbor’s daughter, when spoken to. In the console versions of Undertale, she has slightly different dialogue and will seemingly turn grayscale mid-sentence before disappearing. She is the only Goner to have this behavior.
Goner Clam Girl (GCG) is an interesting case because she serves two important purposes for us, distinct from the other Goners: first, she shows us that Goners do not necessarily originate as Goners. Most other Goners were already one prior to being spoken to, but thanks to GCG we know that one can become a Goner as well. Secondly, she gives us the final piece of the puzzle regarding an underlying thread. What all five have in common is knowledge of something that they should not logically know—something that causes them to no longer fit in with their surroundings in the context of Undertale's world.
Of course, all three Followers are seemingly the only remaining characters to know of and mention Gaster by name. As for the other two, both Goner Kid and GCG acknowledge something that does not exist within the context the player finds them. “Suzy” cannot be found within Undertale, which Clam Girl directly acknowledges. It is believed she is referring to Susie, the character from Deltarune. However, interestingly, she only becomes a Goner due to the knowledge of Deltarune’s existence—implying that the problematic knowledge is not that she knows of “Suzy”/Susie, but that she knows of Deltarune specifically.
In Goner Kid's case, they directly acknowledge their nonexistence by inquiring about “a world in which [they] do not exist”, then imply that Frisk holding a pointless umbrella "makes them feel better about this"—"this," of course, referring to their non-existence, as they reset the FUN value to 0 and disappear after this interaction.
We now have our definition. A "Goner" is not just any grayscale character. A “Goner” is not a character who knows of Gaster. A “Goner” is a character that does not fit in with the world. This is a subtle distinction, but a very important one.
Before continuing further, recall that at the top of this post, we noted:
Goners as we know them are not present in Deltarune.
This is, technically, false. Until now, we have neglected to discuss the most obvious example of a Goner—that is, the Vessels found within the Goner Maker sequence at the beginning of Deltarune's first chapter. This is not by accident, but rather due to their lack of importance in defining Goners. If we continue with our understanding of a Goner being something out-of-place or originating from another world, the Goner Maker Vessels being grayscale only further strengthens this understanding—the Vessels are, of course, a created empty husk of a person, intended for a SOUL to be housed inside. They are presumably created by someone who did not originate from within the confines of Deltarune's world, and they do not originate from within that world themselves.
With our definition in place, we can now move on to Deltarune. As established, a Goner is a character that does not fit in with the world. When they become Goners, they become grayscale in color. And as per the third criteria, after a Goner's purpose is fulfilled (which is to say, they are spoken to and their information is shared) they are removed from existence somehow.
Thinking of a Goner this way, it starts to sounds a little familiar. In chapters 2 and 3 of Deltarune, it’s shown to us that Darkners placed in a Dark World other than the one they were created in turn into statues—grayscale and immobile, their selfhood gone.
Darkners turning to stone gives us a visual representation, much like Goners do, of their status as being out-of-place. These Darkners fulfill a narrative purpose—Ramb with MANTLE, Lancer with saving our heroes—and then turn to stone. Them being grayscale is the visual cue signaling to us that they have fulfilled that ulterior purpose.
We are outright told the how and why of this occurring, of course, and there is a known exception with Castle Town due to the Grand Fountain, but there is still merit in linking this feature to the Goners.
Previously, we noted that Undertale narratively sets Goners apart for a reason. Both Undertale and Deltarune do this by using signals (via color, shape, patterns, repeating lines of text, and so on) to convey to the player when certain information is important. These signals are storytelling devices that we are trained by the narrative itself to look out for, in order to allow us to connect seemingly random or unimportant facts together so we may piece together the story it is trying to tell.
Using what we have established so far of both universes, we can identify the recurring themes being told to us:
Things that are grayscale, or monochrome, are out of place somehow
Things "out of place" fulfill an overarching purpose that is outside the scope of the 'current' world
Let's discuss that first theme. Regarding patterns as mentioned above, repeating color in specific is something that Undertale and Deltarune both utilize frequently—the SOUL colors, pink-and-gold eyes, blue stop signs, so on. The Goners as grayscale characters are similarly a pattern we are trained to look for regarding something being a certain color.
On the topic of certain-colored things, it's equally important to note within the context of Deltarune that one of the Flying Aces from Mancountry also speaks of this—specifically, it says that monochrome is for copies. For this post we are less concerned with generally monochrome-colored things, and moreso with grayscale-colored things, however grayscale is a type of monochrome; hence, if monochrome things are copies, then grayscale things are, too.
If this is true for Deltarune, then it is likely also true for Undertale. There is reason to suspect as much. All five known Goners have a 'full color' counterpart. Notably, all of these colored counterparts can be found in Undertale, excluding Normalnpc who only appears in Deltarune, and almost all of them appear in Deltarune at some point as well.
Were said inverse to be not true, there would be no purpose for the Goners to resemble other NPCs at all. In that case, it would would make more sense narratively for them to achieve the goal of visually standing out by representing an NPC that is entirely new. In other words: if the idea of Goners resembling pre-existing NPCs was not thematically relevant, it would not happen in the first place.
Thus, it is a fair assumption to make as it is thematically relevant, backed by other information, and is set by precedent.
Diegetically, Dark Worlds are impermanent for good reason. They are not intended to last for long, or for multiple to exist in one place at once; to do so would bring the end of the world, literally. In a sense, a Darkner existing outside of its original Dark World is a form of a 'copy', as it no longer exists within the original context it was formed.
To clarify: this isn't to say that all copies are Goners, but all five Goners are copies. In Undertale, the Goners are clear copies of preexisting NPCs. In Deltarune, though Darkner statues serve the same narrative purpose as Goners (see back to the themes) they are not true Goners in the sense of its usage with Undertale. Recall that a Goner is a term used to refer to a specific set of NPCs with specific behavior.
There is one more parallel to note regarding the Goners and Deltarune, though it focuses more on the functional aspect than the visual storytelling aspect.
There are a lot of similarities between the Goners and the egg rooms. Both function as location-based easter eggs for the player to find, either by accident or on purpose via save file modification, in order to tell us about information that they (and we) are not supposed to know. This information is typically cryptic in nature. Three of them are tonally similar to each other, with two of them being outliers among the rest. There is also (allegedly) only five of them.
Important to note that the Flying Aces which give us the knowledge of monochrome copies are found within an egg room—and the most demanding egg room to find as well, emphasizing their knowledge as particularly valuable. Additionally, recall what we noted about coloring being used to emphasize narrative importance; this particular egg room and its inhabitants are entirely monochrome, just as the Goners are.
Examining the egg rooms more closely, there's one aspect of them which is of particular interest. Every egg room has at least one feature in common: the player finds a Forgotten Man behind a tree who gives them an egg.
The Forgotten Man cannot be seen but can be interacted with. This interaction is typically cryptic in nature. Much like the Goners, he is tied to a room in which his existence is strictly isolated. Outside of these rooms, his existence is dubious at best. Much like the Goners, he holds knowledge he should not have, and exists in a world where he should not exist. The only person who knows of his existence and the only character able to enter the egg rooms is Kris, our player character. He stands behind an arguably monochrome tree in an otherwise featureless, arguably monochrome room.
Let's return to Undertale for a moment.
Our three criteria state that for someone to be considered a Goner, they must be grayscale in color, tied to a FUN value, and disappear once their purpose is fulfilled, which is usually done by talking to or interacting with them. Additionally, all Goners are copies of characters that can be found elsewhere in either Undertale or Deltarune.
Despite what has been acknowledged so far, there is actually a potential sixth character that fits this criteria. A very large black-and-white elephant in the room, perhaps. So, as for that sixth Goner:
Mystery Man and his room are tied to a FUN value of 66, appear in a monochrome color scheme, and disappear when interacted with.
We know that things associated with gray are associated with being out-of-place, which this man certainly is. The Mystery Man appears in a featureless monochrome room. Finally, despite his likely identity, the man above has no known name, only being referred to as "mysteryman" in the game files.
Given the information we have and the parallels we have noted, we can assume that the Mystery Man we see above is likely a Goner. The Forgotten Man is likely the original.
Conclusion
A Goner is not a character that knows of Gaster. Their knowledge or personal relation to Gaster is irrelevant. More importantly, a Goner is a grayscale copy that does not fit in with their world on a functional level. They hold knowledge they aren't supposed to have or are directly created by a higher entity. Their connection to Gaster is not direct, but rather indirect through a shared higher creation.
Though most Goners exist within Undertale, we can take their narrative significance and mirror it to Deltarune. Since Darkners turn to statues when they are in the "wrong" Dark World, they mirror Goners as well, further lending to the overarching concept in both universes of "wrong" things being grayscale.
Finally, the Goners most closely resemble the Egg rooms in tone, function, number, and significance. Notably, because of this resemblance, we can link together the Mystery Man and the Forgotten Man as likely being the same person.
Has anyone considered that the virtues/qualities the fallen humans displayed throughout their time in the underground aren't "SOUL traits", but "Gifts", like the ones we can give to our vessel?
Kindness & Bravery are even options for the vessel, too.
Tbh, I don't really think the concept of "SOUL traits" are a thing or an actual property of a human SOUL, and that the traits listed in ball game are rather traits or "Gifts" the fallen humans had. (Tldr; soul traits are fanon)
The red SOUL, or just the color red muddles the concept too, I think, since its always vague and there's a big chance it's not Determination.
The difference between SOUL traits and Gifts would be that a person's behavior isn't reliant on their soul trait, nor is their SOUL color reliant on a trait. In Deltarune the vessel would assumedly have a red SOUL despite having the gift of "Kindness" (which is associated with the green soul).
A gift is just the primary motive/behavior someone might display?
I dunno, this is my theory/take on this now. I think SOUL traits are actually just "Gifts" and don't have anything to do with SOUL colors. The ball game is listing down all the gifts the different humans possessed.
Sans and Papyrus litterally JUST show up in BOTH deltarune and undertale. Like they weren't in snowdinn or hometown before for a while. Im convinced they're pieces of gaster that split off when he was "scattered across time" or whatever that quote I vividly remember said. Does this make sense to anyone else
There's a theory about Gaster that I can't stop thinking about. Don't take it too seriously, it's not supported by any serious evidence.
Basically, it's based on the theory that Gaster is a fallen angel. The angel in the prophecy in both Undertale and Deltarune is also associated with the player, at least as far as I can tell. This could lead to the amusing conclusion that Gaster is a former player, lol. I guess you could call it the "Gaster isekai theory", since the gist is that he ended up in the world of Deltarune and Undertale from another world. Considering there's a theory that Gaster is the author of the prophecy, then he ended up in his own creation, lmao.
Deltarune explores themes of escapism, both its good and bad sides, and I think this twist would fit amusingly into the overall narrative of the game. However, again, I haven't really collected any evidence. I also don't claim credit for this idea. I'm sure many people have come up with it. But I'd love to hear your thoughts on this!
