9. Superman in space or Superman in Metropolis? Does this change if I say Smallville instead?
I think Metropolis is an incredibly strong background against which superman stories can be told, so I like him in Metropolis. But he does deserve a fun angsty space era where he has a mental breakdown and goes into self imposed exile and gets kidnapped into a fight ring.
12. Pick up to 7 characters to star in a Teen Titans ongoing (any era or generation you like). What tone do you envision for this series?
hmmmmmm
Ok so NTT is like. It's own thing in my head that already has the perfect lineup, so to make a new lineup:
we're gonna build off what was possibly intended before new 52, but add rose :P
Rose Wilson Worth (ravager)
Jaime Reyes (Blue Beetle)
M'gann (Miss Martian)
Damian Wayne (Robin)
Stephanie Brown (Batgirl)
Kara Zor El (Supergirl)
Cassandra Sandsmark (Wonder Girl)
They had Virgil Hawkins, but I like Milestone not being combined with regular DC universe*, and they had Irey, but I don't know much about her, so I'll have the 7th member by Cassie Sandsmark/Wonder Girl b/c I feel she could do well on that team.
*mostly b/c I feel like when Milestone characters are folded into DC, they never really are given the same time to shine as they are in Milestone universe. Like the writers could choose to do so, but frequently we don't see it.
14. Speaking of JLA discourse. Should Diana have killed Maxwell Lord?
I don't enjoy when writers treat Diana as if she has no problem killing people, like 'Oh wlel you haven't heard of my villains b/c I take care of them', and do like these quote for Diana that emphasize her desire for peace
There is no human conflict which cannot be served better with words than with the sword Wonder woman 119
“the only real strength comes from kindness and mercy! You know that, roger!” - wonder woman annual #3
i swear by the dead gods of my heritage, this will be a warrior's death. my only regret is that my epitaph should be one of peace. and man will remember that my life ended in blood and violence. Wonder woman 148
BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT i'm still fine with her killing Maxwell Lord. like. "I have completely infiltrated Superman's brain and can make him kill anyone when I want and the only way to permanently free him from my influence is to kill him or kill me." Like. Max. What did you THINK was going to happen*
like I think she made a call she rather would have not made, but it made sense for her in the circumstances.
*yes I know he was lasso of truth'd and had to say that
correct me if im wrong but isnt snowflame that one coke villain?
yep, he get’s his powers from doing cocaine, he’s pretty much the only good thing to come out of the mess that was New Guardians (and Millennium as a whole), New Guardians was a weird attempt to tackle social issues in the most tone-def way possible, and actually in Snowflame’s first appearance he was over shadowed by three of the New Guardians (Jet, Elanto, and Harbinger) contracting AIDS from an “AIDS-Vampire”, this by the way was only it’s second issue
wait i wanna hear the conversation about how cass processes her anger
(its been so long since i made the original tag, but i hope you like this verifiable essay zaed lmao) (and uh, LONG POST warning for everyone else. this is a good 3k of Cited/Summed-Up Issues and Meta about Cass’ Batgirl run)
The reason why Cass processes differently from Bruce is because their traumas have different origin points and therefore have manifested differently. While Bruce’s vigilante drive is in avenging those who have been wronged and bringing villains to justice (bc of his perceived ‘failure’ to save his parents/bring Chill to justice), Cass’ drive is all about her absolution (bc of her continuous guilt for taking a life & later for any other person she feels she ‘failed’ along the way). That being said, while Cass herself is not a typically angry character, the anger that she displays throughout Batgirl (2000) usually has one of three origin points; the vindictiveness towards criminals that she’s learned from Bruce, her unresolved anger towards her father & mother, or the special cases, often where her inhibitions have been selectively lowered due to outside forces. Given that Cass is never given many healthy options to channel this anger, however, is how she ends up emulating Bruce, and is what makes exploring her anger so fascinating.
With that, let’s dive through the canon & Cass’ journey in Batgirl (2000).
I - Learning Vindictiveness
Again, all things considered, Cass isn’t an angry character at the start of her series! In issue #1, wordless as most of it is, there is a very telling moment when both she and Bruce are fighting together, and when she chases a goon into an alley. She watches while Bruce is a little overzealous in taking said goon out. For first-time Cass readers who may not have read NML, this can be a very telling moment. Cass has seen Bruce work. More than that, she’s seen him work in what’s likely one of the most stressful disasters to plague Gotham. But this is one of the first times that she’s really seeing him, and starting to pick up on how and why Bruce operates the way that he does. Admittedly, this is an undertone that I didn’t quite pick up on, during my first readthrough! But I mention it here bc I think it’s something to keep in mind. Because in #4, when Bruce makes his infamous “she’s perfect” speech, he specifically mentions how she ‘holds back’ even for criminals who he wouldn’t care if she was a little harsher with. I think that this is a big moment for Bruce, realizing how he excuses vindictiveness. However, he quickly backtracks on this when in #6, when Cass becomes so incensed (one of the first times we really see full-fledged anger from her) by seeing a criminal shooting arbitrarily that she stops his heart for a few seconds. And Bruce, hypocrite that he is, berates her for taking things a Step Too Far there.
Okay, might be getting a little harsh on Bruce, so in his defense, he doesn’t like the road he sees her heading down. At this point, he’s in denial of the Evidence that Cain has sent him so far that Cass has killed in the past. He’s fearful for what it might mean that he’s putting faith and trust in a potential killer (or rather is in flatout denial that Cass The Perfect Fighter could Ever Have Possibly Killed when she CLEARLY exhibits so much control. Killers must be all or nothing things, after all, right? Once one, aways one? (you’re absolutely wrong bruce but OKAY))
The point still remains, that Cass didn’t show vindictiveness on this level prior to issue #6. And more importantly, prior to Bruce showing her his own vengeful side. And the wildest thing about this… is that he continues to nurture and reward that vengefulness.
Issue #14 is a follow-up to a story where Cass had saved a man while out of costume, and Bruce learns that he had been killed regardless. Hoping to intercede before she finds out on her own, he leads Cass directly to the killers and allows her to punish (read: beat the crap out of) them for the man they killed. Now, there was some significant lead-up to this issue, the biggest shake-up also being that Cass is officially moved out of the Clocktower and into her own Cave. (Promotion or Isolation, it’s tough to speculate which exactly Bruce had in mind, given Cass’ behavior leading to this moment. None of it, I would label as quite angry, however. More... moderately rebellious.) So this can be seen as a kind of turning point where Bruce is explicitly putting faith in her again.
From here we begin to see more and more instances of children being put in danger & Cass being more vindictive in turn. Most especially in #16 (when Cass realizes the mastermind behind a heist is the father of the boy who sent her after them & she’s harsher with him than with many of the other crooks), and #18 (where she and Tim team up and she breaks a kidnapper’s hands when he threatened to kill the girl he had hostage). By this point in the series, Cass has also been working more consistently with others, and it’s easy to see how this has become a learned behavior, and a poor outlet for her growing anger towards the criminal element.
Cass, for all of her heart and training that she’s poured into her vigilantism, at this point in the series had been working towards one goal, to be ready to die by Shiva’s hands. Now, I want to put a pin in Shiva since she comes more into play in Part II, but just know that their fight in #25 was a turning point for Cass’ character, where she begins to care much more about the work Bruce does outside of simply fighting criminals, she begins to care about truly helping victims and for solving cases.
#34, specifically, opens with Cass and Bruce investigating a crime scene, where Cass can tell that a child was hurt. She asks Bruce to allow her to help solve it, but he benches her, telling her she’s ‘not ready’ for detective work. The rest of the issue is interspersed with Cass training until her knuckles are bleeding, and does end with her helping Bruce take down the group responsible! When Bruce asks at the end, however, if putting away One Killer is enough for her, she responds ‘No’, and Bruce expresses his pride in that declaration.
For a long time by this point in the run and for quite a time after, Bruce has absolutely been molding Cass more and more into the same type of vigilante that he is. And Cass is perfectly fine with that! She sees Batman as something to aspire to, the symbol as something transformative and redemptive. And as long as she is channeling the anger that she feels at those who so clearly deserve that punishment, then she must be doing something right.
Because there certainly aren’t other outlets or alternatives that could be productive… could there?
II - Dad/Mom Issues
Bruce Wayne: Murderer/Fugitive is an extremely notable story arc, not only for the crossover event that it became, but for the impact and repercussions that it would have for Cass. While not expressing anger, per se, during this arc, Cass does show a lot of frustration towards both Dick and Barbara whenever they suggest theories of how/why Bruce may have actually committed the murder (which, spoiler, he was indeed framed for! By Cain, no less!). This is important to note because this arc highlights a few things; the faith and trust that Cass has put into Bruce that she’s willing to go to bat for him, the jealousy & proprietary nature that Cain displays over Cass, and finally the consequences that are had when that jealousy comes to light.
Another case opens up after this arc, and Cass is forced to confront Cain in #33 in an effort to gather intel on the criminal known as Alpha. When she goes in under the guise of a reporter and tries to interrogate him, she’s overcome with unresolved anger towards Cain, yelling “Who do you think you are?” and even breaking through the glass to get to him. This isn’t the first, nor the last time that Cass’ anger towards Cain is on display, but it’s certainly a prominent one, as while she makes physically aggressive moves towards him (and yeah, initially kicks him when breaking through the glass), she never outright lays a hand on him otherwise in this one. Threatens him, sure, but shows remarkable restraint given the high emotions.
Cass’ feelings about Cain and about the events of Murderer/Fugitive aren’t ever fully articulated, but given #37, I think we can draw some more definitive conclusions. This issue follows the thread given previously in #33, opening with Cain sending Cass a knife for her birthday. With it, she finally connects the dots that Cain is indeed her biological father, something that was speculated, but not fully confirmed before now. In her anger against everything he’s done to her, they close this issue with a rather dramatic shot of her doing everything possible to destroy the knife, leaving it unclear if she’s truly successful, however.
In later issues when Cass reminisces on her past and on those who have influenced her, Cain is always one of the shadows included. Unfortunate as it is, Cain will always be part of who Cass was, but from this point on in her series, she starts to let some of that anger go. Cain doesn’t decide her future. She does.
Juxtapose this idea, however, much later in #65, when Cass begins to suspect who her mother might be, but wants confirmation. This is what kicks off the final arc of her series, and effectively brings one of the longer running storylines to a close. Cass goes to Gotham to ask Bruce, who also has had his suspicions, but can’t confirm that Shiva is her mom. Since Cass is in town, she goes to train with Onyx (another former assassin-turned vigilante), and whether she’s doing it on purpose or because Shiva is on her mind, she begins to incorporate Shiva’s moves into her fighting, which Onyx points out. All this comes to a head when she confronts Cain for an answer, which he refuses (and we finally see her fully beat his ass lmao). Once again, she doesn’t express anger with Bruce or take out her frustrations on Onyx, but instead levels the blame entirely on Cain, and uses him as an outlet once she’s reached a breaking point.
Another moment to point out is in #67, when the Birds of Prey help Cass along in tracking down Shiva, and when Cass and Dinah train in the meantime. Dinah shows off her new moves (Shiva’s moves) to Cass, and Cass reacts badly, nearly choking Dinah out as she demands to know how Dinah learned those moves. She learns that Shiva’s been looking for a student/heir, and later on that she’s been working with the League of Assassins to help her to that end. I feel this moment highlights a growing trend, that feelings left bottled up will eventually spill over if they’re not properly acknowledged. Would Cass have otherwise reacted so poorly to Dinah showing her ‘new moves’ otherwise? But I digress.
Given that their first confrontation was in this same vein, of Shiva looking for one to either end her reign or take over her legacy, it’s kind of poetic for them to end on this note. The series concludes with Cass facing off against Shiva for the last time, Cass the unmitigated victor, with nothing left to prove to either of her parents or to herself. She’s finally at peace with her past, and that leaves her present a wide open mystery.
This, however, brings us to a topic that still bears exploration...
III - The Edge™
Because no matter how much Cass is able to hold back, even in her quest for justice. No matter the anger that she feels towards her parents. I would be remiss if I didn’t bring up the times that Cass has been pushed back to the worst possible edges.
The first, and most prominent of which, occurs in #15, when Cass is hit by a machine that causes her to hallucinate the Joker killing Bruce. The entire purpose of the machine was to push people into ‘deciding’ to kill others, and for most it would knock them out for a few minutes/hour before they would wake up and be compelled to commit a killing spree. For Cass, it was a matter of seconds that she ran through the scenario presented by her subconscious, and to make that ‘decision’. Cass is introspective at the end of the issue, and her concern for Bruce is made very clear. Her emotions towards that ‘decision’ however… is a lot less understood.
Now another issue I want to bring up is #19, a lot less for it being an issue where Cass’ outright anger is employed, but as another extreme case with high emotions. Cass hears that a man has been sentenced to die, and, believing that all life should be spared, actually goes to the trouble of breaking through the chamber where he’s being held and stops the process in its tracks. She truly does want to believe that anyone can be redeemed, and it’s an admirable part of her character. Ultimately, her efforts are for naught, the man is still sentenced to die and Cass is now forced to contend with a system she does not agree with. It’s an interesting idea to explore and highlights her idealism, but ultimately it’s not as fully understood or even really acknowledged, in my opinion, by the fandom at large. (Which is why I wish I had highlighted it in my previous meta, but I’m getting off topic again.)
Recalling that her ‘Perfect Year’ occurs during this next example, in #21 she almost kills the villain Shadowthief in her preparation for her first deathmatch with Shiva, and immediately regrets the lapse in judgement when she realizes what she had done. Stephanie was luckily nearby to help her resuscitate him, but it was nonetheless a very telling moment and lapse. It’s a harrowing reminder of what Cass IS capable of. Though she’s been preparing and training for a fight to the death, she’s still absolutely abhorred by the thought of taking another life. She’s not angry during this battle, she’s more playful than she’s been in a lot of issues leading up to this, actually. But the point remains, Cass will always be capable of taking another life, what she lacks is the willingness to knowingly do so, and now will always have a fear of the possibility.
With that we circle back around to two of the drug-induced cases, first in #46 where Cass accidentally ingests Soul. The stream of consciousness that materializes on the pages, shows that she HAS picked up on everything that everyone around her feels/sees in her, and that she’s internalized it to some degree. Cass does manage to fight through most of it and held her own against the drug runners she was fighting. Something to note, though, is that this incident is preceded by Cass learning that Babs and Dick are once again at odds, so once Babs sends Dick to check up on Cass, she responds (still in that drug-induced state mind you) by kicking Dick out a window on Babs’ behalf. Given that Cass has no previous history of turning on allies, (& won’t again until the incident with Dinah much later) even when frustrated or in disagreement with them, this moment certainly needs to be kept very carefully in context.
Following this issue, we see a slight personality change from Cass, where she’s becoming more reckless and frustrated. In #48 this culminates in her ignoring both Babs and Bruce’s calls, she ends up comprising his human trafficking investigation, and Bruce grounds her from being Batgirl in the meantime. #49 shows her going against Bruce’s wishes and operating in Babs’ old suit, something that angers Bruce when he discovers this.
This story arc finds its conclusion in #50, where both Cass and Bruce are gassed with Soul and they fight a pretty brutal battle while under its effects. They have their famous heart to heart after, where Bruce asks ‘once and for all’ where Cassandra’s loyalties lie. Bruce later posits that this fight was the ‘therapy’ that Cass needed bc “what other therapy will she understand?”.
While his heart may have been in the right place, this idea, that Cass can only respond to fighting and express herself through violence, is ultimately not a very healthy one. Cass’ default is already training and fighting, so any further strain that she puts on herself becomes something more akin to self-flagellation than anything near to a proper coping mechanism.
IV - Conclusion
And that’s where the parallel between Cass and Bruce really reaches an uncanny similarity for me. Because they pour everything they can into the mission, often to the detriment of their mental and emotional health. While Bruce’s degrees of self-awareness for his anger may vary by writer, Cass’ is fairly consistent across her Batgirl run. The outlets given to her were so few to begin with, and any effort to examine her emotions or to express herself through other outlets is… simply not given to her for all too long over the course of her series. It’s a rather tragic, and ultimately heartbreaking thing, because so soon after her series ends… DC seemed to decide the best thing to do with her, was to turn her into a villain.
I said at the beginning that Cass is not a naturally angry character, but it does need to be acknowledged that she’s absolutely capable of anger, and that that anger is often not expressed in the healthiest of ways. Whether this development is seen and acknowledged by the fandom at large, however, well… while that’s looking less and less likely by mainstream batfam stans, I am hopeful that Cass fans continue to highlight this aspect of her character in the content they create. And that I, too, can remember to acknowledge this in future fan content that I make as well.
have you been reading the current jld run? im loving it and all its villains (esp. circe) and i like it more than nu52 jld
i own and read the first issue and the witching hour story and i LOVED them. i’m really behind but i want to get caught up bc it was such a good story. i still haven’t gotten around to reading nu52 jld actually ajgsjshsjs
imo what was the start of the dip in quality in dc was Nu52, when dc looked at these beautiful expansive families and mythos surrounding the various superheroes and said "this is too complicated. we have to streamline it." thereby giving us a ton of very boring or plain bad stories for the sake of simplicity, then backtracking with rebirth and now trying to backtrack once again. the 100 year story that dc is is gonna be complicated no matter what. imo its better to embrace that than hide it
i agree! but i think the families were all falling apart earlier, especially around infinite crisis. that made everything so broken and bleak, that flashpoint kinda HAD to happen. i feel like it came in waves, everything was grim dark dark in the 80s, same in the 90s but easing off towards the end, pretty ok in the early thousands, and then everything got destroyed again. and at the very core of this, i blame moore and his contemporaries
My fav droid is the ever famous R2-D2 and my fav episode centering on him is S3E8 cuz its such a good portrayal of R2 and 3P0's relationship and how R2 is willing to sacrifice himself for his best friend
It's also a really good portrayal because Artoo is having a grand ol' time at a spa while Threepio is being kidnapped and extremely stressed, which really is how most of their adventures are lmao
jaccsonhyde replied to your post “c'mon jane rita is not spineless”
Ehh she kinda is in this show, but that's supposed to be her character arc isn't it? At least part of it. Shes trying to learn to stop turning her back on people that need her help
oh yeah, i agree that she had a long way coming from her old selfish self to now, where she wants to improve as a person (just like most of the cast really). is just that as i see it rita is the one who has done more character growth, so i assumed that by this point of the story (second season) jane would see that, but tbh as part of her dialogue it makes sense, given her character
