Leverage Season 3, Episode 11, The Rashomon Job, Audio Commentary Transcript
Arvin: Arvin Brown, Director.
John: John Rogers, executive producer and writer of this particular episode.
Chris: Chris Downey, executive producer, and this is The Rashomon Job. John?
John: Yeah. Which we played around with a couple different names for it, it’d always been shorthand, The Rashomon Job, and then it just- we wound up keeping it. This was-
Chris: You had another title, though, that you kinda-
John: This was The Five Story Job.
Chris: The Five Story Job.
John: The Five Story Job, just cause ‘Two Story’ is a classic. And also House won their Emmy with a three story job. So I figured two more stories would get us our Emmy.
[Arvin and Chris Laugh]
Arvin: I like Rashomon Job, though.
John: Thank you very much. It’s a classic. And really, it was born- this has been the free pitch that’s been kicking around for ages. This was that high-concept idea I think we even had in the first year, and just, like, all right, you have to know the characters really well for it to make any sense whatsoever and it has to be basically a standalone. And nicely enough, we hit a weird soft spot, a gap in the arc narrative this year.
Chris: Right.
John: So we had this free one. And so I took all our notes we had accumulated and basically banged this out in about a week. Which turned out pretty great.
Chris: Yeah, it has to be executed perfectly or it’s a complete disaster.
[Arvin Laughs]
John: Yeah.
Chris: And you did it in a week.
John: Yeah. [Laughs] Well, no, the boys up on set did it, because this- writing it was a bear, but- oh, “I stole it!” That was the high concept. The pitch was always, they were watching the news and “I stole it!” And Sophie Soong, who is a recurring character now, she’s the reporter from The Inside Job. Arvin, what’d you think when you got the script?
Arvin: I thought it was impossible.
[John and Chris Laugh]
Arvin: I thought this was probably the end of my TV career.
Chris: [Chuckles] Now Arvin, you have a background in theater. Now- and this one really required an awful lot of entrances and exits. What did you bring from your theater background to approach this?
Arvin: Well actually, y'know, the interesting thing is that a lot of the plays I did, particularly toward the end of my theater career before I made the total transition into television, were very impressionistic plays. Y’know, the- television and the screen has influenced contemporary playwriting more than anyone realizes. So, a lot of times I’d be in situations where I needed to create transitions, and odd appearances, and disappearances. One in particular, for example, there’s a writer, Peter Nichols, British writer. And I did a play of his called Forget-Me-Not-Lane in which people would open closet doors and there would be somebody, and then they’d close the closet door, and open it again and that person was gone. You know, so all that really played into this in fine fettle.
John: This is meant to be, really- you could do this as a play. This episode, if you had like three staging spots on a stage, you could pull this off.
Arvin: Yeah, that’s true.
John: And that was the key, is- our 1st AD, Eric- and this was also- the recurring visuals was really important for editing.
Arvin: Incidentally, doesn’t Gina look gorgeous?
Chris: Oof, wow.
John: Gina looks stunning in that dress. That dress is killer. And it was interesting, Eric, our 1st AD saw this and he said, “You’re mad.” And then as we talked about it, you realize everything really takes place in three spots. Everything else- is just, you talk about it a lot but you’re never actually there.
Arvin: Yeah.
John: You know what I mean? And that’s the key to any of this. Ah, there’s Traber, Traber Burns, he’s a local Portland actor, and did a great job for us as the main villain.
Arvin: And who had incidentally, a wonderful time doing it, and has been in correspondence with me since.
John: Oh, that’s great. No, he was fantastic. Now talk about- sort of the challenge about setting up Tim as the observer character. Because we talked about a couple different ways to establish him, and he was coming up the stairs with Gina there, as the, sort of- y’know, and there he is, he’s popping into frame.
Chris: I guess we call this the “Annie Hall” sort of narrative.
John: Yeah.
Chris: In which people appear in the flashbacks.
Arvin: One of the challenges, though, in this kind of a situation is to keep him active. Because the trap with the observer character, y’know, is that it becomes very, very passive. So that’s one of the reasons I kept finding these ways to sort of have him physically be there, appear, and visit, and suddenly be gone whether it’s in the closet or just-
John: Rather than just hanging about.
Arvin: Yeah, exactly.
John: It has to be startling and notable when he’s there. Also-
Arvin: And that creates its own sense of amusement, so that he’s got a certain color watching all of this stuff.
John: That also is an in-camera effect. The fade out. Dave Connell came up with that, right? The idea that we would have him fade out by bouncing a bright light on him and reflecting in that glass and then just killing the light.
Arvin: Right, yeah.
John: No, it was a really, really lovely effect.
Arvin: Yeah. I was- I loved that.
John: And this is where we start to get into the bones of it. Oh, that’s Juan, that’s Juan Canopii, who’s playing our minister. And this was- this was the trick, the- I’ll have on my website, you can go find it on kungfumonkey.com, or blogspot.com. There is the flowchart for where everyone is, who everyone is, and what they’re doing at any given time. And it’s three pages long.
Chris: Now, did you do it with- did you do it visually? Did you have the maps of the sets, and you had- and you had three pages, and you kind of-? Is that how you worked?
John: No, it was- I specifically built each person’s story.
Chris: Okay.
John: I figured out, what would Gina’s attack as a grifter be- and that was the fun of it, that was what really gave us the birth of Grifter, Hitter, Hacker, Thief.
Arvin: Right.
John: And nicely enough, a phrase we threw away in Season 1 became the archetype for the show.
Arvin: This guy, we should mention quickly, incidentally, is Riley.
John: Oh yeah, of course!
Chris: Riley Smith.
Arvin: Who is best friend of Chris Kane, yeah.
John: They’ve been friends since they were teenagers.
Arvin: Yeah. And he did a great job.
John: Just a great, great job. Really, really flawless. No, it was really- that was the trick, was building out Gina’s- pardon me, Sophie’s story, what everyone else could possibly play within that story, and then after that everyone’s approach to the crime fell out of that.
Chris: Right.
John: You know, why they would need to be there? Why they would need access? etc. etc. etc.
Chris: And then, presumably, the things they interacted with then were kind of things that you could incorporate into the other stories.
John. Yeah.
Chris: The ‘World’s Greatest Grandpa’ mug-
John: Yeah.
Chris: And stuff like that.
John: And we’ve got- I mean, in the room, I finally came out into the room with a bunch of paper cups and objects and folded notecards, to the writer’s room and said “All right, help me.”
[Chris & Arvin Laugh]
John: “I have- this object has to wind up in this cup. At some point through the iteration.” Cause the trick is, each person needs a perfectly flawless plan.
Chris: Right.
John: It’s five heists that have to all go wrong not independently, but interdependently.
Chris: Right.
John: I was drinking fairly heavily by the end of this one.
[Chris and Arvin Laugh]
Arvin: Incidentally, we should note, too, that I have rarely done a script that actors have fallen so completely in love with as this one. Cause of course every single member of the cast gets a phenomenal opportunity.
John: Oh, yeah. And they get ten big pages of playing a character-
Arvin: And every time they got hopelessly confused cause of the way I had to shoot this, and to try to remember desperately which story they were in, I would remind them of how much they loved this script.
[John & Chris Laugh]
John: “I know you’re really miserable right now at two o’clock in the morning.”
Chris: There’s some actor maintenance advice there from our director.
John: Yup. And John Billingsley, Oh, he’s great in this.
Chris: Now that was your suggestion, wasn’t it, Arvin?
Arvin: Yeah, John I have worked with so often and he is the most versatile, most remarkable character actor. I did a television film with him where he played a just brutal interrogator, prosecuting attorney. So he’s got tremendous dramatic chops.
Chris: But- but you needed him to swing from kind of meek to menacing. And that is- that’s a tough thing to do.
John: Absolutely.
Arvin: And have a certain believability in all of it, and also have a sense of comic timing. Which incidentally, is one of the things that the regular cast has in spades in this episode. Their timing is so good.
John: Yeah. And that was something that- we could not have a weak sister on this character. This character is as strong as the other five in this particular situation.
Arvin: Absolutely.
John: If you don’t believe that fifth act turn, you’re done.
Arvin: Yeah.
John: Really, yeah, no, it’s Noises Off, but with crime.
Arvin: [Laughs] That’s right! That’s almost- exactly right.
Chris: In a way, it’s almost his story, isn’t it? I mean, you look at it that way?
John: Yeah. Oh, absolutely.
Chris: If you had to zero in on whose story it is.
John: Absolutely. If the rule is the protagonist is the person who suffers the most, it’s definitely Cosgrove’s story.
[Arvin & Chris Laugh]
Arvin: Yeah.
John: No, it’s just- also I was delighted by the idea of the sort of cluelessness of hearing what people say and you’re not really paying attention so you assign- I love the fluidity of memory. That’s just one of my favorite things to write about. I’ve written about it a bunch of times.
Arvin: It’s wonderful- it’s a wonderful phrase, too. And I gotta tell you, while we’re looking at Gina, a very quick funny story there. We had one dark moment in prep where we had gone to Gina and she was really hoping to have complete costume and hair changes in every single story.
John: Yes. In each story.
Arvin: And of course, practically speaking that would have been an absolute nightmare.
John: Production-wise.
Arvin: So we had to convince her that she could do it completely from an acting point of view, which of course eventually she got excited about.
John: Yeah, and she does!
Arvin: She does. That’s wonderful.
John: Those are two entirely different- and that was - the hair is different, the difference between the geeky woman in the little jacket, and, you know, Gina in that dress- there’s no comparison, you know?
Arvin: Exactly.
John: And also, that’s tricky, because that was one of the discussions we had about the audience being able to track what the hell is going on.
Arvin: Yeah.
John: You know, because the entire episode is basically a series of nested flashbacks, and so if she’s wearing something different and she’s too different you lose-
Arvin: Exactly right.
John: Where in the narrative you are. Yeah.
Chris: Mmhm.
John: Also the voices are great. Because at some point in the episode, as her accent deteriorates, I actually wrote in the script, “Sophie:” and then the dialogue block just says “Unintelligible British gibberish.”
[Laughter]
Arvin: Yes! I know. I loved that.
John: And just- Gina, being a fantastic comedic actress, just tee’d off on it. Beth could barely keep herself together.
Chris: That was right, didn’t you- you got to shoot that over and over again, right?
Arvin: Oh yeah, they couldn’t control themselves.
Chris: They kept breaking up.
John: And now, also to say, Arvin, I also wrote this bear and then stranded you. Because I went straight from this into the finale with Chris.
Chris: Right.
John: So Jeff Thorne, the writer on Inside Job, who had been my writer on Inside Job, the one I directed, babysat this.
Arvin: Yeah.
John: And since, you know, we’d worked together, he knew what I was going for.
Arvin: And he did a nice job. He really did. And he has the right sense of how to deal with actors.
John: Well, you know, he used to be an actor.
Arvin: Oh, no, I didn’t know that?
John: Yeah that was Jeff-
Chris: [Laughs] We’re outing you on DVD, Jeff!
John: I know- How long was he on In The Heat Of The Night? Five-
Chris: Five seasons.
Arvin: He was on what?
John: He was on- In Heat of the Night for five seasons.
Arvin: Oh my-! I never knew that.
John: And it’s one of those things that he never talks about it in the writer’s room.
Arvin: Nor on set, let me tell you!
Chris: No.
John: And it’s like, when we found out in the writer’s room, it was like we found out he’d been involved in human trafficking.
[Laughter]
John: We were so filled with rage.
Arvin: One of the things I kind of worked on here with these little framing scenes-
John: Oh yeah, framing devices.
Arvin: Which is very important to me. Had a link with each- one actor would take us to the next area of the set that they would be in.
John: It’s a great use of space, whenever you bounce back, you know what version of the story you’re in.
Arvin: Yeah, rather than just finding people in different places, there was always a thematic element that took us to the new place.
Chris: Now this is a great little fight, John, and if I may just blow some smoke. I think you do an amazing job, in these episodes, of bringing us in media res in these-
John: Yeah, thank you.
Chris: In these Eliot fights, and they always have a great punchline to them.
Arvin: Yeah, this was- I love this one.
Chirs: They have a setup, they have a punchline, and it delivers exposition.
John: Uh, I will absolutely tell you that Jackie Chan taught me that. Jackie Chan taught me, because I worked with Jackie briefly, and he was like, you know, each fight is three acts. You know, each fight- and there’s also, if you look at the fights that I write, I wind up- you know, everyone’s got their toolbox, in a lot of scripts, in the Eliot fight, even if it’s not my script, I end up swanning in on it. He also showed me the fight line: the one line that you do the fight along. And everything else is peripheral, but as long as you have one line to shoot on, you can shoot it quickly. And that’s why you’ll notice a lot of times Christian is fighting along one axis.
Arvin: Yeah.
Chris: It’s great.
John: And then you can just throw a lot of stuff at him.
Chris: Yeah, exactly.
John: And this guy is named Gutman, of course because of The Maltese Falcon.
Chris: Oh, that’s great.
John: There you go.
Arvin: We love that.
John: There you go, this is plainly The Maltese Falcon at this point.
Arvin: We all love that.
John: Yeah.
Arvin: He did a great job.
John: He was fantastic and it’s a very small part.
Chris: And a nice menacing push in there.
John: I know!
Chris: I love a good push in.
[Arvin Laughs]
John: I also love the- love the read Christain found here on like, “You know I have to do this, right?”
Chris: Yeah!
John: “You're aware I have to punch you.”
Chris: And there's our joke.
John: There's the joke. The bit with the knife was fun.
Chris: And we got all the exposition out.
[Arvin Laughs]
John: Yeah. No this- and again, the sort of recurring shot, the reset, this is what kept me sane when writing this, was always knowing I was gonna get to the reset scene.
Chris: Right.
John: And see- and this was also a ton of fun. I actually shot this. This was crazy, I got up there-
Arvin: And I was very grateful that you did.
John: I got up there and I had not had any sleep cause I'd been working on the finale and I swung by the set to say hello.
Chris: Right.
John: And they were like, “That's great, you can shoot the second unit!” “I don’t- tired!” And Christain, I will give him full credit, Christain really powered us through this.
Chris: It's a long speech here.
John: That's a long speech and it was- we covered the hell out of it. And he nailed it every single time, and we could've been here all night.
Chris: Yeah.
John: I mean really. But that's the advantage when you're in season 3. You know- this is the longest speech Eliot’s ever said.
Chris: Right. I'd say so, and you know what's nice about it, too, is it gives you a sense- which helps you in the finale, of what his life was like before Leverage.
John: Yeah.
Chris: There's definitely- you wrote the characters in a different way than they are on the show now.
Arvin: Here’s an example of that fade out that you were talking about.
John: Yeah so you get the- him in reflection next to Christain in the shot.
Arvin: Yeah.
John: It's really a nice piece of work.
Arvin: Incidentally, you know, one quick thing that I should say, which was such a joy, you know, that I didn't do the second season. Of course I did the first season and then came back for this. And the growth in the actors, in the regulars, is really remarkable.
John: No, they own these people now. I mean, to a great degree a lot of our fun in the writing room is knowing if we toss the ball into the pit, how they are gonna play with it. And so it's just coming up with stranger and stranger balls that we can throw.
Arvin: Yeah.
John: And just alright,’’ how about this one’? You know. Yes and- also, this is where we start to put in the dueling flashback attitude.
Arvin: Yeah.
John: This was an awful lot of fun. And- [laughing] oh and the corncob pipe killed me every time!
Arvin: That's great.
Chris: Oh, the corncob pipe!
John: Kills me every time.
Chris: And the nice comedy wipe right there.
John: Yeah.
Chris: Rhhh!
John: Classic comedy wipe. No the- that's also something we don't get to do, and this is another reason it was one of my favorite episodes not because I wrote it, but because we got to do something we never got to do because we were such a plot heavy show. Show what they're like when they're actually not on a job.
Chris: Right.
John: You know, this is what they're like when they're hanging out in the bar.
Arvin: Yeah, that’s interesting.
John: And Sophie's- something we never get to address that much is Sophie's truculence.
Chris: Yeah.
John: And just the sort of- she's very hard done by, you know she's very- she's a princess in her head. You know.
Arvin: Yeah.
John: And an actual duchess we find out later in the season.
Chris: Oh, this was so funny.
John: Oh I forget- this, I believe this comes from a friend of mine’s comments about the British spelling of elevator and color. It’s like, isn’t it stupid? The ‘u’ just makes us feel bad!?
Chris: Sea roaches? Oh that's so great.
John: And yes, Eliot’s a thug, but he's not a bad guy here. I mean he's not gonna let somebody let some dude die on the floor.
Arvin: Right.
John: No, this was an enormous amount of fun. And this when you start- honestly, it's not that complicated a story once you figure out who everyone is. Great job here. And now, when you shot this, if I remember correctly, you literally parked the cameras, had them come through, do one version-
Arvin: Yeah!
John: Had them come through to do the other version.
Arvin: That's why I was so grateful that you were outside shooting the night shot. Because it was like organizing the Prussian army, I mean it was-
Chris: Oh boy.
Arvin: And also figuring out which exact lines and moments could be done that way and which couldn't because of either a change in look or a change, you know-
Chris: Or some inconsistency in blocking.
Arvin: Yeah.
John: But that’s-
Arvin: It almost is exactly the same blocking, but not really. Just enough changes.
John: That's where- I will admit, even when we were working on this. That's where the idea that everyone's version is slightly different, I knew was gonna save us.
Arvin: Yeah.
Chris: That’s right.
John: Because otherwise we'd be trying to mirror and we'd have guns in our mouths.
Chris: Right, well of course, because people accept- I mean the whole premise of this episode is recollection is flawed.
John: Yeah. So if everyones standing a little off or a little different places, it’s, you know. There's fine- and then figuring out what you had to shoot- what you had to shoot new and what you would just keep reshooting-
Arvin: Exactly.
John: Sequence of. Cause that was originally our 1st ADs thing, which was, ‘Oh my god, there's a thousand shots in this.’
Arvin: Yeah.
John: It's like no, that’s- that shot.
Chris: Oh.
John: That by the way, a comedy- a locked off comedy frame.
[Laughter]
John: There's nothing better than a locked off comedy frame.
[Laughter]
Arvin: That was-
John: A medium with, like, bullshit happening in the back, there's nothing funnier than that. I wouldn't have staged it that way in a million years, that was inspired, Arvin.
[Arvin Laughs]
John: That was great. No, love that.
Chris: And now here we see walking down with the flowers and not the gun.
John: Not the gun. Yeah. And then it goes back to a gun for Parker and you see what- yeah.
[Chris Laughs]
John: See how everyone builds it. In retrospect I might have written that the jackets were different colors.
Arvin: The jackets?
John: Like, cause that's a little close to Riley- the doctor's outfit. That’s the only thing I can think of looking back on-
Chris: Yeah, but it doesn't throw you. I mean I would say-
John: Yeah it doesn’t throw you. That was the only thing that bothered me.
Arvin: I wouldn't have thought about it, that's interesting.
Chris: Yeah.
John: I was watching it. And still never hit- oh and that is of course a- and that's the reveal of the previous shot. That is, of course, a shout out to the great British comic book writer Warren Ellis on the address label.
Chris: Oh, is that his address?
John: No that is- it’s Warren Road, Ellis County.
Chris: Oh that's great.
John: Just a little something. and this was great cause I told them it's Raiders of the Lost Ark. You just- you know, you're going through the-
[Laughter]
John: We also had an intern, because we had to do multiple takes, hiding behind him to catch the vase. And, you know, Christain’s just whipping that piece back there.
[All Laugh]
John: Just like- he's like ahh!
Chris: That's true, I imagine we wouldn't have nine vases.
John: No, we do not have nine vases.
Chris: Do they have nine vases on NCIS, Arvin? I bet they do.
Arvin: Yeah.
John: On the network show?
Arvin: Certainly NCIS LA.
[Chris Laughs]
John: On a cable show they had- we had one vase. Take good care of it.
Arvin: That's right, [laughing] it's a rubber vase.
John: No, I love the choice that Gina's making here which is Sophie’s getting more and more drunk as the night is going on.
[Chris Laughs]
Arvin: Yeah.
John: She's getting angrily drunk. Yeah, and the World's Greatest Grandpa mug.
Chris: World's Greatest Grandpa.
John: That was insane. That was the point in the writers room where I just had my head on the table because it was- what is each person trying to accomplish, what do they wind up with, and how does that object wind up in their hands because of the other humans?
Chris: Oh boy.
John: It was not- it was not a fun day.
Chris: Don't try this at home, kids.
[John & Arvin Laugh]
John: This is the one you do after forty of them.
Chris: Don't try this at home.
Arvin: It was very interesting working with Timothy on this episode, because he had to find his inner progression in the piece.
John: Yeah, when he's- cause he’s-
Arvin: Of what he's trying to accomplish.
John: He's playing chess, and the rest of them don't know it. Yeah, Tim-
Arvin: But nevertheless there are also certain things he needs to find out to bring him to the very final point of the script.
John: He's actually interrogating them. Subtly. Which is very clever.
Arvin: That's right, that's right.
John: And then you move to the dartboard, which is nice. It's really important. This was a ton of fun. And calling Apollo and going, “How do we do this?”
[John & Arvin Laugh]
John: And I originally had it with rocks glasses and just- because rocks glasses aren't that transparent but I love the teacups.
Chris: Wait, so this was all practical?
John: This is practical. The way you do it- although Beth has amazing hands, it takes a lot of practice to learn how to do that properly. There is a ball bearing inside the crumpled up bill and there is a magnet on the inside of the teacup.
Chris: Oh, this is great! This is why we do this!
John: Yeah.
Chris: I did not know that, folks!
Arvin: That was so much fun.
Chris: I work on the show!
Arvin: That was so much fun.
John: It was a ton of fun. You never know with Beth, cause she's learned how to do a lot of it, so you never know.
Arvin: And that's also the sort of thing my years at O’Neil [¯\_(ツ)_/¯] didn't really prepare me for.
[All Laugh]
John: Oh really? No? Yes, and this was a lot of fun, was the James Bond. Cause, you know, let's all face it, the female fans are thanking us right now.
Chris: Yeah.
John: They've been waiting to see Aldis in a tux for a while.
Chris: He looks pretty good.
Arvin: Yeah.
John: Yeah, this was a ton of fun and randomly picking a name off the list. Look at the- look what Tim plays there, right there, he plays that he's starting to figure it out.
Arvin: Yeah, that's right.
John: Just at that moment. No, this is lovely. That may be a slight anachronism with the phone, we'll assume he built his own sliding keyboard five years ago. He may have innovated that himself.
Chris: We'll take the emails.
John: I'll take the emails on that one.
[Chris Laughs]
John: God bless you, God bless you. Now this-
Chris: No, they had that five years ago.
John: Yeah, eh. This was also fun was the- was figuring out why he needed to be there, physical insertion versus remote attack, you know the different stages of hacking.
Arvin: Right.
John: This montage was great. Adorable. There's no reason this should've come out as well as it did.
[Laughter]
John: The only thing - the only thing- yeah and there he's presenting the flowers. It's great. The only thing I miss, and it was ridiculously impractical- oh, I love this shot.
Arvin: I love that. This one was- that was really.
Chris: They're all over each other.
John: Yeah, and taking the picture. And I'm willing to say that's canon. I'm willing to say that happened. Nice wipe, by the way, nice wipe to reveal Tim. Did you have that in your head at the time?
Arvin: Mhhm.
John: Yeah, to get him back in the shot.
Chris: That's great.
John: The only thing I regret is in that montage, in the script, there's a moment- there is one shot, which was just impossible to shoot, which he's playing chess with an old man.
Chris: Yes! That's right.
John: And [laughing] just the crowd is watching!
Arvin: Yeah.
John: It's like no, there's no way to do it.
Arvin: I couldn't figure out how to do it.
John: Surrounded by honeys.
Arvin: Could not figure out how to do that one.
John: Yeah. And this one was great, because what was also fun was Treber really has to sell this three different ways, also.
Arvin: Yeah.
John: You know, Portland actors. Never let us down. And the freeze frame.
Chris: And the freeze frame!
John: And that's great. This is a common-
Chris: That's when you go beyond the wipe. That's when you just stop the- stop the rolling.
[All Laugh]
Chris: The first one is the wipe, cause it’s like you're trying to wrap your head around it. Then you need to-
Arvin: I think this is almost an encyclopedia of film.
Chris: Yes it is.
John: You had to pull pretty much every trick out of the can on this one.
[Laughter]
John: There you go, and psychopath Eliot! This was a ton of fun to do. And again-
Chris: And the much larger knife.
Arvin: And of course Aldis-
Chris: Cause that's what he would remember!
John: Yes.
Chris: He would remember a much larger knife.
Arvin: This is Aldis’ great strength. He's just unbelievable.
John: Oh yeah, yeah. And by the way, Christain digging in.
Arvin: Oh yeah.
John: He really, there's not a lot- it's like, “Oh, so I'm psychopath?” ‘Yes, yes, you’re terrifying.’
[Laughter]
John: Yeah. He told me this was the most fun bit, this bit.
Arvin: Yeah.
John: Just the creepy bit with the knife.
Arvin: Yeah.
John: Peppermint. we got to use his signature line, ‘it’s a very distinctive smell’. Yeah, trying to figure out why he needed to be in there.
[Laughter]
John: Walk the halls in the dark. Oh yeah. This is- the little half smile, he's genuinely creepy here.
[Laughter]
Arvin: And that reaction. The thumbs up. Inspired.
John: Creepy crazy. And bang in, and where's Nate?
Arvin: He will be there right-
John: There you go.
Arvin: Right behind him.
John: And that's fun. I will tell you the day that a hacker friend of mine told me that he was running OSX- he was running his operating system off a thumb drive is the best thing that happened to us.
[Chris Laughs]
John: Don't have to lug a god damn laptop around everywhere.
Chris: Now, what was the option other than having Nate appearing in the flashbacks? Were you gonna do a voiceover? What were you playing around with?
John: I was thinking about a voiceover, but-
Chris: It becomes like the voice of god, I guess.
John: Well it's- he's talking to- each character would end up talking to the screen.
Chris: Right.
John: But that breaks the fourth wall so heavily.
Chris: Yeah.
John: You know, it's just not something we do and- yeah.
Arvin: Well you know what else you would have lost, is that part of what tells the audience how to respond to the tone is Nate's attitude.
John: You know, it really- I played with it for like a day and then tossed it. Nate had to be not just asking questions, but in the scene. Which at the point I was like, “Oh god, Arvin, I'm sorry.”
[John & Arvin Laugh]
John: In my head, cause I knew you were directing this one by that point. Which also to a great degree, I’ll tell you, is why I wrote this one in this order. Cause I knew you could, with your theater training, you'd be able to handle it.
Chris: I think that in the House he appears in- if I remember right, that Emmy-winning House, he appears in the flashbacks like that. And it was pretty- it's a bold move to do that.
John: Yeah.
Chris: You know, I mean it's-
Arvin: But I think it's vital, I think that's-
Chris: Yeah, no, it's now that you look at it again, I can't imagine doing it any other way.
Arvin: Almost the single most important element in the entire show.
John: No, you can't. Yeah, I did one version where they talked to the screen and I did one version where it was just clean, and then no, you need some sort of pipe.
Chris: Right.
John: You need exposition cause we still do four really complicated heists in this. You need to explain what the hell they're up to. Yes, and the blocking on that, the whole design of this hallway. Who’s standing where, and what are their sight lines, and how can they see?
Arvin: Oh boy that was- we spent a lot of time on that.
John: Oh my god. But the-
Chris: I mean, and the doors and stuff, this is where you get the great far sell.
John: Yes.
Arvin: Yeah.
John: Yeah, that was intentional.
Chris: Once you got people shoved into doors, and throwing people.
John: Noises Off, exactly. I’ll tell you what was interesting, I had originally envisioned the supply closet closer to the downstairs over on the other side, out of sight line of the antiquities room. Now by the way, Aldis just slapping Eddie Murphy on there, hard.
[Laughter]
Arvin: Yeah.
John: However, putting in the other place gave you the locked off comedy frame to play stuff back and forth across that door.
Arvin: That was the big-
John: Yeah, which really was- I never imagined that.
Arvin: That was the thinking of behind-
John: This, by the way, is the fun of television. You write it, and you actually make it.
Arvin: Yeah.
John: And it winds up being better than you thought.
Arvin: Right, and oddly enough, because you make it at such speed, a lot of ideas kinda crystallize that might not be there, you know, if you were thinking it out over a longer period of time.
John: And each one of them lying, each one of them not- this was- and this was fun. Actually, I'll tell you that was the hardest one to write. Was the hacker’s.
Chris: Oh.
John: Eliot’s was fairly straightforward, cause he needs to get into- because it's true that the most vulnerable place when you're transporting valuable objects is in the transition from storage to transport.
Chris: Right.
John: Figuring out why he needed to be there and what his scam was? Was the hardest one. She was easy.
Chris: Mhhhm.
John: Cause this is almost beat for beat exactly a heist she does in almost every episode. This is her thing, you know?
Chris: Right, right.
John: She's a thief. Once you're in the fourth act, you're in the home stretch, you know.
Chris: Right. And play around with- because for those of you that aren’t aware, the acts have different lengths-
John: Yes.
Chris: We knew that we were gonna end with Nate because Nate’s the one who's gonna give you the true version. But in the other order, did you always think that Parker was gonna go on our fourth act?
John: Yes.
Chris: Cause that's the shortest act?
John: Cause that's the short act. And we actually talked about it being no dialogue.
Chris: Oh.
John: We actually debated- “What, I'm a thief?” And then no explanation, that's what she is.
Chris: Right.
John: And she nailed that. We actually- remember we talked about for a while- this was before, well before we wrote it, Arvin, the idea that we would shoot this in like a really weird black and white expressionistic idea of like-
Chris: Right, right, right, right.
Arvin: Oh really? wow.
John: Yeah.
Chris: It's like the way dogs see the world.
[Arvin Laughs]
John: She just sees like- everyone would be wearing the same clothes, and just like it's just- only the objects that have reality.
Chris: Yeah.
John: And then we realized that was just from a production standpoint, impossible.
Chris: Yeah
John: Just impossible to do. And as a result, just gives us a lot more fun to play with.
Arvin: I love this little brief moment with Aldis here, cause again with the interconnect.
John: Yeah.
Arvin: And he's stuffing himself with-
John: Yeah, with freebies. This was actually- in Montreal when I was going to McGill University, the strip joints had free buffets.
[Laughter]
John: So and the- I don't know what it does now, but the meal plan at McGill University in the dorms, they are not covered on the weekends. So you would put plastic bags in your pockets and you'd go to the strip joints and fill your pockets from the buffets.
[Chris & Arvin Laugh]
Chris: Wow, pretty impressive.
John: And that's- I love that. I love her frustration. ‘I hate you all.’ She just nailed it.
Chris: There's a great little sequence too, Arvin. Cause the camera was always moving or people were moving. I mean it’s, you know, considering it's a party where somebodys stuffing hors d'oeuvres in their pockets, it had a real dynamism to it.
John: Oh this thing flies. Well Parker’s always moving.
Chris: Yes.
John: That's the key, is if you're following Parker and she's always moving you're just- yeah, you're aces up.
Arvin: And the change in attitude here, of course, was just wonderful.
John: Yes. And that was tricky because one time we talked about this being Sterling. I mean one time we talked about- it couldn't have been Nate. You know, but we talked about it being Sterling and then realized- no, we fell in love with the crush story.
Chris: Yeah.
John: Also love- this worked out. Look at the way she does that line. She knows somebody else is there.
Arvin: Oh yeah.
John: She just figured it out.
Arvin: Yeah.
John: You know, she does that great. She’s just now pissed she wants to get on the job. It's actually what motivates her to do the job.
Arvin: Right, exactly. And I love the linking of the blackout in each story.
John: That was key.
Chris: It gives you like a timing.
John: Yes.
Arvin: Yeah, and that's right.
Chris: Cause it orients you visually to- ‘Okay, I remember when that happened.’
Arvin: That's right, cause the time is complicated. I mean you go back, you go forward, you go back.
John: No, it's- the- I remember developing it’s like, we need a starting gun. And the blackout became a starting gun for when it just goes to hell.
Arvin: That's a perfect image.
John: Cause everyone’s in the party until the starting gun. And then you’re, you know, and then you're up and running. And there's the two bags cause she's got two bags. It's a ton of fun. Ton of just crazy second unit stuff here. Because there's so many- we have to look at so many plans and diagrams and maps, cause trying to make sure the audience knows where the hell and what we're doing.
Arvin: Yeah.
John: Just crazy. And she grabs the wrong bag.
Chris: Right.
Arvin: And where those bags would be in relation to each other, those are the kind of tiny details you have to figure out in this.
Chris: Oh boy.
John: I don't relish directing this one. [Laughs]
Chris: And look at that! There's a great transition, right?
John: That's the classic highlander transition.
[Arvin Laughs]
Chris: Crane up. Crane up through the floor.
John: If you actually- ordinarily that crane up is through the- it reveals a Scottish village in the 1400s.
[Laughter]
Arvin: [Laughing] That's right! Yeah, right.
John: And catching it before it broke. That was just a lift from Jackie. I love when he has fights when he doesn’t- when he tries to keep stuff from breaking while he's fighting. It just always makes me laugh. And it's not there! Yeah, there was, like, another layer of transport originally, in the original design of the script, and then it just got ridiculously complicated.
Arvin: Yeah.
John: So. And establishing that. Oh, tons of fun.
[Silence]
John: God, I can't think.
[All Laugh]
Chris: I know when you watch it- there's so many pieces in it, it’s-
John: A little sick.
Chris: It blows you away.
John: This is the fun bit, this is why you pay Beth Riesgraf whatever the hell she wants. I say this, it will come out after contract negotiations.
[Laughter]
John: I would not have come up with this! In a million years. That little sword fighty bit?
Arvin: Yup!
Chris: Child-like skipping!
Arvin: And this! And the skipping out.
John: She got the shiny thing!
Chris: Yeah.
John: Love the shiny thing. Also I love the- it’s fun, you could play her episode without dialogue, it totally works without dialogue.
Chris: It does work.
John: Absolutely works.
Arvin: Which is interesting, since there was a silent modern film that was done as a silent film called Thief.
John: Yes! Of course!
Arvin: You remember?
John: Oh yeah, the opening. No, and then we built- how did we do this shot down? Cause we did not- we did not have a ventilation shaft that went 30 feet down. How did we do this?
Arvin: It was-
John: Mirrors? Or did we do it digitally?
Chris: Ohhh! [Laughs] He just gets punched.
Arvin: It wasn't-
John: He's just having a bad day. This is digital.
Chris: That's digital? That's great.
Arvin: That- yes.
Chris: Looks fantastic.
John: That’s digital. But when she comes out of her side, I think we just built a small drop.
Arvin: That's right, that's what we did.
John: No, it was nice. And everyone still digging in on- it’s interesting, they’re each playing this realization differently. It's really lovely.
Chris: Now this was all done over the course of how many days? The-
Arvin: Seven days.
Chris: No, no, but I'm saying the framing device in the bar? How long were you in the bar?
Arvin: In the actual shooting, you mean?
Chris: Yeah.
Arvin: Uh, one day.
John: One day?
Chris: This was all done in one day? All the framing scenes in the bar?
Arvin: Yeah. All the framing scenes were done in one day.
Chris: Wow, that was a lot of pages.
Arvin: That's why I had worked out the movement pattern so clearly in my mind beforehand, so that it would be very clear what brought each person to the next area.
Chris: Right.
John: And you didn't double set ups.
Arvin: Yeah, right.
John: See that’s why it’s- interesting thing, for those of you listening for film school, you don't measure television shows when you're shooting in pages, you measure them in set ups.
Arvin: That’s correct.
John: Cause each time you set up the camera it takes about 20 minutes.
Arvin: That's right.
John: So that's your shot count. That's your shot list. That clock is- and it's amazing, no matter how complicated or not complicated the shot is, it's always 20 goddamn minutes.
Arvin: Oh yeah.
John: You know, at least.
Arvin: Well, never less!
John: Never less.
Arvin: Certainly a lot of times, more.
John: But if you can light a set- you know, like the bar where you don't have to light it like a freakin’ miracle. Then you just know- you just know what your coverage is, you know your coverage, you know how long you'll be there.
Arvin: Now an interesting thing here is the difference in Timothy's attitude when he's actually now in the story.
John: Yeah.
Arvin: Compared to what it's been throughout up to now. Cause now he's coming in with a chip on his shoulder because he's already suspicious of-
John: Also, this is our way to remind the audience he was a prick back then!
[Laughter]
Arvin: Exactly! And that was a big factor too.
John: Tim Hutton's character is not a nice- you know, Nathan Ford, not a nice guy back then. You know?
Arvin: Yeah.
John: This is- he was a lot more like Sterling than he cares to admit. So, yeah. This was- this meet cute, I love this meet cute. So, you know, that was kinda fun. It allowed him to- we kinda missed that guy.
Chris: Yeah.
John: The flashbacks, you don't really flashback to those days anymore and since we're kinda moved on past that in the character, because he's playing the thief not the ex-insurance guy.
Chris: Yeah.
John: It's always fun to watch Tim play Nate from five years ago.
Chris: Yeah.
John: You know. And he's got- John's so amazing in this.
Arvin: Yeah.
John: And just- what were the character beats? I mean the dialogue had changed, but you know, what- I mean was- I see the glasses, and his hair is done differently. And just any sort of difference, you know-
Arvin: It's a really different attitude.
John: Yeah.
Arvin: It’s what he's able to do internally that makes the-
John: I love the giving- and she's giving him the big knife in this one, kinda like Excalibur. It's just a subtle difference in each version of the story.
Chris: Yeah, and what's nice about Nate being the prick also is that, you know, usually the final version is the true version- the reason it has credibility in the audience, is because he didn't make himself out to be a great guy.
John: Yeah.
Chris: In other words, like, if he had made himself out to be the hero, you're suspicious, but the fact that he makes himself out to be kind of a hard ass jerk, and the character reveal is that Cosgrove is the sympathetic person.
John: Yeah, absolutely.
Chris: It really - I mean that really is what tells you not just that it’s the fifth act.
Arvin: And I think of all of the aspects of John's performance that are so tremendous, the fact that he achieved a real vulnerability.
Chris: Yes.
Arvin: Not a play- not just a kind of casper milktoast quality.
Chris: Right.
Arvin: But a real caring about Gina.
John: Also, we had stripped him of one of an actor's most valuable tools, which is different dialogue.
Arvin: Yeah.
John: This- it’s gotta play- he's gotta say the same words.
Arvin: Same thing, that's right.
John: Or as close to the same thing as he can and still get it. You know, there's a great Hal Hartley movie that's gone completely out of my head. I think called Flirt. I have seen that my wife is a giant Hal Hartley fan and I will say that is- and this is totally Noises Off, by the way. This bit right here with the door.
Chris: Mhhm.
Arvin: And one of the rare moments we were able to use actually the same footage.
John: Yeah.
[Laughter]
John: That is three twenty minute movies, each one using exactly the same dialogue. Not necessarily spoken by the same characters. But exactly the same dialogue. In each of the twenty minutes.
Arvin: Oh, wow.
Chris: But did with different inflections that gave it a completely different meaning.
John: With different characters, different settings, different places.
Chris: Oh, that's great.
John: And it's fantastic. And that really is one of the birthplaces of this episode. Is the idea that each person can remember even the words differently.
Chris: I'm guessing Martin Donovan was in it.
John: Martin Donovan may have been in it. You cannot-
[Chris Laughs]
Chris: Isn’t Martin Donovan in every Hal Hartley movie?
John: I'm sure at this point you can IMDb on your Google TV right off to the right hand side while you're listening to this, but yeah. Oh and he's so sweet here!
[Laughter]
Arvin: I know!
John: Everyone's such a bastard to him, I feel really- I feel so bad for him.
Arvin: Although you have to say, not cut out for security work.
[Laughter]
John: No, but you know what-
Chris: He's a little lovesick. Right?
John: But, you know, Gina's worth falling in love with! I mean that character- you know. That- you're not not gonna fall in love with her. And then the reveal the person who ran by was Eliot. A ton of fun. Yeah, we should have slicked back his hair, I missed that.
Chris: Yeah, but you know-
John: Yeah.
Chris: That’s okay. Still works.
John: And the reveal of the roses.
Arvin: There was a discussion- that was strictly a time issue, as I remember.
John: Yeah cause he would have remembered to do it.
Arvin: No, we had discussed it.
John: Oh, yeah a time production issue. The ability to just throw that suit and tie on him and walk him through those sets was a big deal.
Arvin: Yeah. And the museum stuff of course had its own issues connected with it, in terms of the time sequence.
John: Yeah. Cause this is set. The upstairs, the gallery is at the museum where we shot.
Arvin: Is actually at the museum.
John: Yeah, so we had limited time there. I mean we could- you know, this was our bank vault slash mine slash, you know.
Chris: Mhhhm.
John: Becca and the production design people do an amazing job as usual. Oh he's so wrecked up here.
[Laughter]
John: That's a great performance. And Aldis kinda- like I love also the Aldis choice here of like, just, ‘Are you ok?’ Is just-
Arvin: [Laughing] right!
John: He's not a bad guy! He just, you know.
Arvin: No, right.
John: This is a little disturbing.
[Laughter]
John: Now that I'm thinking about it.
Chris: Right, what happened to him?
John: Yeah. Again, Eliot was not a nice guy.
[Arvin Laughs]
John: By this point, I mean, this was the trick, too, was designing it so you could do shorter and shorter takes.
Arvin: Yeah.
John: Because Gina’s has to be the longest and the most narrative, and each one is a sort of a collapsing set of information.
Arvin: And I used Gina’s to really teach everybody what the shape of the thing was.
John: Yeah. Oh look at those ropes! He's so nice! I should write them a nice letter! He's just great. Also that was a big part of it, was writing down everyone's equipment. Was figuring out who would need what when. You know, why and how they can- how you can wind up screwing them.
Chris: Wow.
John: Yeah. no I was pretty much just locked in our office [laughs] for that week.
Chris: Wow.
John: Like, ‘Where’s John?’ ‘He’s in there, don’t bother him.’
Arvin: Oh this is good- there's a funny thing about this.
John: Oh this was great! Tell them what happened on set. And then boom. And he’s- oh look! He finds a strange girl in the shaft and he's still concerned about her. And the drop. And- this is not digital. We literally dropped this.
Arvin: We literally dropped it. Here's the story: this was the real thing. This was really quite heavy. And we had a rubber one, an exact duplicate which we wanted to- intended to use because we were afraid that Timothy would get hurt.
Chris: Yeah.
Arvin: It's not so easy to catch, with the momentum, something like that.
Chris: Yeah.
Arvin: To take the chance of catching it, and he insisted, god love him, you know, the actor till the end.
John: Yeah.
Arvin: He was gonna work it out that he could catch the real thing. And he tried it a couple of times and it didn't work-
John: Yeah.
Arvin: And then finally, man, the catch was perfect.
Chris: Oh it’s perfect.
John: Oh, well I remember it didn't- cause I was actually on set for that day, cause we were prepping the finale. It didn't work in the rehearsals, but he got it on the first shot.
Arvin: That's right! That's it. Yeah.
John: The first time the camera’s rolling he caught it.
Arvin: Yeah, that’s absolutely right.
John: He might've been hamming it up a little during rehearsals. Just “Oh, I don't know!” Yeah.
Arvin: Yeah, yeah.
John: No this is- and Traber’s just lovely here as the guy who never really believes he's caught.
Chris: And everything ties up here. I mean there's the, I mean-
Arvin: Yeah.
John: Why is he there?
Chris: Every thread, why is he there, what his plan is, that wraps everyone else's story up-
John: Oh my god! That was the insane thing. The insane thing is we had broken all of these great crimes to keep everyone from stealing the dagger, and then realized we still needed the crime story in the news to say it had been stolen.
Chris: Right! Right.
John: That was a bad day.
[Laughter]
John: That was- that was a bad day to realize when we pretty much finished breaking this that-
Arvin: Oh, but the logic of it came through perfectly. I mean, when you created that scene, I mean it's totally believable.
John: Yeah, that was kinda the- that was- and I'll fully admit, by the way, that's just one of those ones where you can't logic yourself out of it. That was a good four glasses of Irish whiskey.
[Laughter]
John: In the writers room.
Chris: And the-
John: And just like, ‘You know what? Here's what he did.’
Chris: And the Gutman thing ties up, too.
John: Yes.
Chris: And was that- was that after the fact when you realized-
John: No, ironically he was the easy one.
Chris: So the fact that he was responsible for the Gutman thing-
John: Yeah, it was originally all gonna be Gutman.
Chris: Okay.
John: And then it was like, wait, Gutman never owned it, so why would it matter if it was stolen or not, how would that lead to the news thing?
Chris: Okay, right.
John: Nice blocking there, by the way, moving John over to next to him. It's the- in my head, although he is unlucky in love, he gets full credit for this.
Arvin: Yeah.
John: And so we- you know, the Leverage team never hurts the bystanders. We do what we can to avoid it.
Arvin: Yeah.
John: Unless you've taken a job with a security firm, in which case you know what you're getting into. Maybe you didn't expect to get choked out quite so often on the job.
[Laughter]
John: Stripped down to your underwear, but you know.
Arvin: Now you know what I love here, is that the end- that you manage to find in the ending, John, something a little bit underlying the whole thing, which is the idea that it’s better for them to work as a team than separately. Which I think is such a wonderful-
John: Well you have to do it or else this is masturbatory. Honestly? Otherwise it's a magic trick.
Arvin: Yeah.
John: You know, it's- oh nice bit of plotting but what was the illustrative character point? And this is the illustrative character point. You know, and we really felt this way - is they’re a family now.
Chris: Right.
John: You know, the show is a family now, that's kinda the point of it. You know?
Chris: I mean, and there’s an inherent desire, I think, in the audience wanting to believe that they ran into each other. I mean that's the star-crossed lovers-
John: Yeah.
Chris: Fantasy is that we met-
John: Destiny meant for them to be together.
Chris: We met as children, you know? And I think that's something that- that’s what drove you- why we're drawn to this story.
John: And to a great degree, he is the best British asshole on Earth.
[Laughter]
John: Man, is he good at this! And what's great is we just took the stuff the guy from BP oil actually said.
Arvin: Actually- I know! I love it!
John: And it was so dickish! There was really no way to there's no way to improve it.
Chris: He’s great, look at his face.
John: Look at his face. God, you just wanna burn parliament down.
[Laughter]
John: Ugh. And they're off! And yeah that's great there's never any doubt.
Arvin: Now I gotta tell you, one of my- here’s a favorite actor moment. Watch how Timothy gets out when he decides to join them. This is a pure little actor- this is the kinda thing Timothy comes up with-
John: Yeah.
Arvin: That is somehow so unexpected to go over the bar like that.
John: Yup. And turn out the lights. If this was the last episode of the show, I would've been perfectly happy.
Chris: Yeah, no!
John: Honestly if we had never done another episode.
Chris: It's got that vibe, doesn't it?
John: Yeah, if we had never done another episode I'd be perfectly happy. Oh my god, that was a ton of fun!
Arvin: It was a joy for me, I'll tell you.
Chris: As I said when I read it John, instant classic.
John: Thank you.
Chris: And Arvin, script- we were amazed and executed to-
John: Arvin, incredible job. Incredible.
Chris: Wow.
John: Just on an impossible- and by the way, big shout out again to Bekka Melino who- Melina, pardon me, who just killed it on production design on this.
Chris: Yes.
John: The museum, the downstairs building, the set, making it- you know.
Arvin: That closet with everything- Yeah.
John: The closet, everything, yeah.
Arvin: Absolutely.
John: Alright, stay tuned - there's more of this coming up right on the next disc. Put it in, get drunk.