Hi. I just wanted to say, that i read back all your meta and opinions and i completely agree with you about the loss of the quality of the show. If im being completeley honest which i am, i have to say that i believe this show would have been easily the best show on tv, if the Netflix, HBO or Cinemax were taken it. Cw always ruins everything. This show should be scary, mad-toe-to-toe action filled with great writing. People in the chair with a pen not doing such good job. Have nice day. :)
Hi dear!
It isn’t a lot of fun to be so filled with disappointment regarding the show that despite all the bad writing and bad everything really of the last couple of seasons under Dabb still is the show that means most to you. And I am mostly keeping my mouth shut about it these days, because nobody likes to be bombarded with negative thoughts.
But I agree with you, the show deserves much better than it what it is cursed with at the moment. I have wondered many a times how much better SPn could have been even in its best seasons if it had a budget like let’s say “The Walking Dead”. I’m sure it would have been just breathtaking. Which is not to say that I haven’t felt absolutely enthralled by seasons past the way the show ran - I have been, I fell in love with it the way it was and now I seem to be falling out of love with it, because it is painful to me to see the show lose everything that it once stood for and that made it unique and an emotional journey to be invested in. There is just barely anything left of what made this show the show I love.
I will not type up again all that I am missing on the show these days, I have done that more times I can count - and it wo’t change anything. At this point I am just sad that SPN - the show closest to my heart - will just trickle out in meaningless cheap melodrama, when it had all the potential in the world but a showrunner who lost himself in the hype around himself and the fanservice strewn across all of the seasons without it actually being planned out in a proper and meaningful way, but just given as little pieces of candy for certain groups of the fandom. It doesn’t work for me that way. The show lacks integrity, it lacks heart, because frankly that heart, that core is not being the focus anymore (with this week’s episode being an exception), but storylines with characters I don’t care about and that are executed poorly and just foot on cheap drama.
I never would have thought I would come to this point but I think SPN should have ended with S11 when Dean held the amulet glowing in his hand and Chuck said “hi”. Everything that came after that... It’s a different show and it may feature the Winchesters (now and again, sadly Dabb isn’t truly interested in their story but rather everybody elses) and the Impala and the bunker, but it’s not the same show, it’s not the same depth, the same thought and love poured into it, it’s just... heartless. And that is painful, because what this whole show rests upon is emotion, emotion delivered and felt through the main characters with Dean as the narrator most of all, but he is barely in the picture these days (again this episode being an exception).
So yeah, those are my two cents once again that nobody wanted to hear. And to end this reply with a nod towards the episode: Maybe the writers should take a look at their set up and what Dean saw when he read that book, which I think is a blank page. Dean, ultimate symbol of free will, uniting humanity and divnity within, re-writer of the apocalypse, the one ripping up the pages of destiny, his “book of life (and death)” now has a blank page and what could possibly be more scary than that for Dean? He’s overwhelmed, he’s got all the possibilities in the world, in the end this action and though all other books having been rewritten don’t matter, because they haven’t been written by Dean himself. It’s up for Dean to decide, to write his own story, be the master of his own destiny. He isn’t just the God of his own story, he is also the Death of his own story.
And that is kind of the thing that Michael despite all his boasting doesn’t understand. He doesn’t need to kill God, really, he can’t kill God, because he is already dead. Nothing made this more clear than this blank page - that I assume is what Dean saw in that book and that is what freaks Dean out more than any other scenario written down would have (though granted with this writing team, they probably go down some idiotic blatent route and explanation) imo. Maybe Dabb should leave the pen to Dean Winchester, I’m sure he’d be a better writer than any of the people currently on staff...
Yed thats exactly how i feel. If i havent put all this time into watching it, i would have left it behind already. Like a book that you start to read, figure out its shit and then you just grind your teeth and go through with it if you started already. Im only curious about Robert at this point - obviously, but im trying not freak you out because i know you hate him :D. I also curious if they wrap up something, if anything in this season, which i highly doubt. I feel the same thing about Mike driving around. That time could have been given to other characters, maybe they would have been interfering with the plot more actively than Mike. Also that - when i say something gets done it gets done, is starting to loose its weight. Also it is so nice that they spent so much time developing some kind of connection between Mike and Iris, and now they gonna abandon it for Bunnys cousin and Mike... I really can't figure out how this is gonna end.
@minamartin Yeah! Just overall, I feel like I want to finish, not that I want to find out what happens next, which is sad. I don't know what on earth they're doing with Bunny's cousin and Mike, especially since Mike's failing repeatedly to get Bunny any help at all, and Bunny's cousin appears significantly younger, and, idk, Evelyn is still RIGHT THERE...out of all his potential romantic/sexual interests, I think Evelyn is the best fit, even though I find Bunny's cousin charming. And I am sorta glad we don't see Iris right now because I'm sure she's just being miserably exploited, but also, I don't want to lose her entirely! I do want to know what they decide to do with her! Argh! Best of luck to all of us that are gonna stick through to the end.
Wow. There was an episode. Finally. Feels like something happening. Kyle finally had the talk with his wife, thank you. He finally had a talk with his brother, thank you. And that prison cell scene...hard to watch for me. How you felt about it? Also thank god Robert is in the next episode because i feel like an addict missing its drug...
Hiya <3 @minamartin!
Honestly I'm a bit meh on the show right now, I feel like every episode is just a string of events with no coherent theme or arc per episode. I like having Bunny's cousin (sort of, I mean, I think it's kinda hilarious that she's annoyed by Mike but also thinks he's hot) but overall idk it's meh for me...The prison cell scene was really upsetting, but it was supposed to be upsetting. And frankly I'm kind of tired of watching Mike just drive around and talk on phones and have no power/make no moves, I'm serious...like he can try and FAIL at something but he's not even really doing anything. Kyle's bits were all right, but not very interesting/impactful to me tbh. I liked Ian's creepy little burgers for bodies conversation and maybe that'll actually give Mike some leverage with the DA, but from the next episode preview, I doubt it. I'm really concerned about Bunny. I also am concerned about Karim, who has grown on me over time. And hurray for seeing like 0.2 seconds of Rebecca, I guess? But...hm...honestly if I hadn't already watched so much of this show I'd probably be out right now
Yes. I also was glad it came back. And i also love how realistically they dealt with the box - a civilian finding it. I like how they wife sensed that her husband is not coming back and she took it to the police.
I also think Miriam should stay with the juveniles because they somewhat still receptive to her. At least more than adults seem to be. I also think if the character stays it is the road for her. Young people are still can change or can decide to change, older ones not so much.
Yeah. The crimes nature is not evened out. I mean releasing people who know how to handle automatic rifles and already killed people is not the same as pick pocketing and such. Also i somehow would not even put Bunny on that list because of what i perceived with the prison scenes. He defends himself if he has to but he doesnt seem that violent. I mean his thugs carry guns, he said something along the lines that the boss doesn't need a gun.
I hope Sawyer comes back. I would imagine a similar scenario, that he is needed in Kingstown especially now because i don't think the police is able to handle this heat if the things start to go really bad. I mean if not for Kyle, Ian would have been shot in the pizza place scene. Also from some pictures i have found Sawyer has a new haircut and different clothes that he wore previous seqson and the recent one, so i would assume that there is gonna be a new season. It really would not surprise me if Sheridan already shot season 3. He seems to have a crazy work ethic and people seem to be giving him a lot of trust - they know... -. I hope i see him significantly more. But i also hope for the same for Mikes assistant, Kyles wife and Milo.
I think Sheridan can surprise us. I mean Dillon played the sheriff in Yellowstone and he got into a restaurant hostage situation where he was in a restaurant as a guest when armed robbers came and Kevin Costner and Cole Hauser's characters saved the people and tried him, but he got shot in the chest and died there in the restaurant while trying to reach his daughter for the last time but he died before she picked up a phone... Kind of good scene it was. I really don't know about Ian...it could go either way like with any character in Sheridans worlds. Stevie i don't care much to be honest. In the scene with Sawyer harshly interrogating a criminal and pulling his ear to find out where the guy went who blew up his own kid and wife cooking meth at home, Stevie just straight up laughs and finds this amusing. But i don't know that was the actor breaking character or pure character.
Also i have the feeling Joseph is trying to play Milo. I mean he has a kid with that prostitute girl and it really seems so he tried to desperately get the info out the site worker before word reaches Milo. I find it hard to believe that Joseph is deathly loyal to Milo. I sense he is an opportunistic character, and opportunity just knocked.
It is a pleasure to talk, as always. :)
@minamartin always a pleasure! <3
I agree, I think that the whole box storyline was great. They subverted that same old boring scene that we've all seen already many times in thriller and horror movies, where the wife is just sitting there nervous but doesn't do anything, and gets killed—it's way more realistic for her to be like "uh fuck this I can't handle this" and run to the station to give up the bonds.
100%, Mariam should stay with the juveniles. I would be thrilled if they found a way to connect that to the plot without making the entire point of the storyline just "Mariam is stupid for trying to help people" and I actually have a little hope that they can do it! You can do it, guys! I believe in you! Haha
Yeah, I think Bunny is definitely experienced with violence, because you don't lead a gang that runs drugs and is intimately interconnected with prison gangs and—if I recall correctly?—is involved with sex trafficking somehow?? I'll be real, I skipped over a fair bit of Iris's storyline in s1 just to preserve my own sanity, so I might've misread some of the dialogue there. But I think Bunny must have a serious history to have gained his position. What makes him a standout leader, though, is that he's very much like Mike in the sense that he doesn't particularly enjoy killing and chaos, etc, he just wants the world to run relatively smoothly and for him to be in charge of his own little patch. I don't really know if this is true in real life in regards to criminal leaders, but in SHOW life, having him on the outside is hardly going to increase the amount of violent that occurs, and in show logic, it might even help keep the peace, relatively speaking.
Yeah, I think Sawyer will come back, as well as Mike's assistant. I was talking about it earlier this week and somebody mentioned that MIke's assistant wasn't in the episode, but she WAS mentioned by Kyle as leaving behind a post it note saying she'd be back or something, so surely she has to return at some point, or else what's the point of the sticky note? Milo we need more of for sure. Kyle's wife we at LEAST need once to see how the baby storyline impacts on Kyle.
I don't really think they've already shot season 3, because I think if they did, they'd have mentioned it when Jeremy Renner was injured in the accident. As a sort of "hey guys, don't worry, s3 still a go" way. Like I think right now, they don't have s3 yet, and they're waiting to see how well their leading man recovers to see whether or not they can go ahead with it, and to see if they need to accommodate him physically in the scripting or re-scripting of the season. Renner's not my fave, but the poor guy, seriously, yikes. I hope they can figure something out that doesn't put too much stress on his body.
Hmmm, but the thing is, I think they probably killed Dillon off on that other show Yellowstone because they knew Dillon would have to switch sets eventually to go work on Mayor of Kingstown. But now that he's firmly in Mayor of Kingstown, I only see them killing off Ian if the show's about to end. I also think that Stevie laughing was definitely in-character, as if it was out of character then I think the editors of the episode would've cut it out. It's definitely in keeping with the entire way that the police force (and most of the characters, let's be real) treat violence, like, they really are so casual about it when it's being done to somebody that they can compartmentalize as not being human, someone they don't have any empathy for (which again is most people alas).
Very interesting about Joseph trying to play Milo! If that is the case, Milo may have him killed or something...I don't know, Joseph is really and TRULY not the brightest lightbulb or the most capable guy. I mean come on, how many times has Mike kicked his ass—and Mike's okay, but he's not like the world's greatest fighter of all time, world class judo, he's just a capable guy (which leaves Joseph looking super incapable). I agree that Joseph is just an opportunist, but I am curious to see if this whole baby thing leads him to have any other motivations (such as interest in his family) that will make him clash with Milo.
I also really think that the madam character that Iris is dealing with is interesting...they're clearly trying to spend a little time setting up Iris's situation with what is essentially a combined club and brothel, right? Why would they spend all this time on these dynamics just to do nothing with it? So I actually have a little bit of hope that perhaps Iris will either learn from the women around her, including the madam, or that she will manipulate one of them into getting something—SOMETHING!—that she wants. I see them making a little bit of an effort with Iris, thank goodness, and I want to see where that's leading us.
So many questions and thoughts! I guess I'm gonna end up paying for more than one month of Paramount to see how it all ends, nobody look at me lmao *covers own face*
Here i go, again. I have some things to get off of my chest and frankly im curious what do you think!
We are almost halfway season 2 - 1 episode away -, and things still haven't happened, we still not see Milo enough to know what he is up to, we still have not seen Mike actually doing something but at least we got some Kyle and Miriam. Im curious what Mike thought when Bunny told him they are moving them to another prison. That he is bluffing? He seemed so surprised at the end when he found the empty tents. Like i get it, he is a fixer of Kingstown. But im sure there is a major and a senator and such, so the correctional facilities tasks and businesses are far higher than Mike can reach. If could have intervened, he should have by now because now it is out of his hands reach. And also where is my Robert Sawyer dose of the week? I would have bad feelings about this if i would think that the plot is actually gonna move forward - i was afraid that Robert and Ian, and a bunch of guys who are on the side of the law are gonna get killed or seriously injured because they have been mentioning if they loose the prison, they loose Kingstown and then it is really war, but i still don't understand how that could happen and what it means to certain characters. Im a little disappointed so far.
Yeah, I feel like Milo's doing very very little this season still in a way that I find kind of annoying. I was overjoyed that they dealt with the box in the ground! Finally! That seems like an interesting piece of money/power that will maybe end up giving Mike something to work with, because the whole episode he just felt like he was running round saying the exact same thing to every little stakeholder, but not making any moves or decisions at all himself.
I am cautiously in favor of them at least making an effort with Mariam, and I think the new environment of the juvenile detention center might work out a little better than her former stuff. The Kyle stuff I'm also cautiously open to. I found him talking to Mitch being a real </3
I'm a little bit dubious about Taylor Sheridan dealing with release of nonviolent offenders in this way. Am I really supposed to believe that some guy who got arrested for weed or something is really a huge threat? As opposed to—oh well, you know the whole spiel by now. There's a lot more that's caused chaos on the streets.
Not a fan of Sawyer, but I have a happy prediction for you, which is that he'll probably turn up in the following sequence of events: the removal of everyone from tent city makes the leadership lose faith in Mike -> the leadership is unable to keep hold of their people and violence arises again -> Sawyer & co have to go arrest people about it. So he'll almost certainly be in the next two episodes at some point, in my mind.
Ian is one of those characters where I know he won't die because he's played by Dillon, but I'm not even mad about it, he's an easy hang especially compared to the vast majority of other characters.
I again appreciate Tasha Williams's direction, and hope she returns for season 3 (if there is one)
Uhm, Beth is basically a character who uses her fathers influentual power to do whatever she wants without very little or no consequences. She swears constantly, talks with people from a high horse, she is arrogant, naked lot of times and talks often about sex, punches her own brother and lot of people actually. She would be an equivalent male character in Sheridans world or something what Sheridan i think perceives as a strong woman. I think oppositely of her. She is a really dislikeable character for me.
@minamartin Ohhh, okay. All of those character qualities sound super fun and watchable for me haha but I think I recall actually seeing her in a scene in a clip on youtube once and finding her annoying, so alas. Luckily I will not have to decide either way as I don't intend on watching the show.
Talk to you later! Maybe after the next episode comes out tomorrow.
Well, on the baby...i have a strong feeling that they will loose the baby or something happening to Kyles wife. They put so much emphasis on baby things and Kyle ignoring or not properly handling this relationship, that i feel they usually do this when the character is about to loose what is took for granted.
It is refreshing to see/read when someone recognizes that one on thing there is opposite stance of opinion and respects it. I like you even more for this. Really! :) So many times people try to force their opinion/viewpoint on me and not able to see that it is differ from theirs and it is tiring. But i would add also that im not idolizing certain characters if any. I always try to see it from every possible side that i can, so im not biased or as little as possible. Im not trying paint the dude in the picture of hero of the show, i think there are no heroes on this show at all. And even if were i would not like them. Heros tend to be idealized and the world is not ideal.
I agree on Milos wife. But the interesting thing is the little thing that Milos wife has looked up Mitch or Mike can't remember. Some kind of deal was probably going down between Mitch and Milo, that is what my instincts tell me.
Yeah. I agree. There are literally no good guys here. I feel like it is some kind of pattern that GRRM started with the game of thrones. There no good or bad guys, just what they seem and show. And there is fucking Ramsay Bolton or Joffrey. Like i said Bunny seems to be the less worse of the ones we have been shown so far - compqred to the guy who shot Mitch and what he did with the money, getting high on his couch thinking he will get away with it and Milo who is reaching far further than Bunny seems to.
I agree. Like i said, i love gritty, dark stories with complicated characters. I have no problems with cursing, fights, shootouts, any sort of that but psychological abuse is always freaks me out and makes my skin crawl and rape i think is the only one crime which is at the both times physical and also psychological. It is a desperate and disgusting way to try to enforce your will and force onto another person and it is probably stay forever on the victim like a stigma - whether it be a man or woman. I think this is the most terrifying form of abuse and the guards participate in it is downright makes them a villain in my book, because they should be able to distinguish between lines that should not be crossed. I mean they have their freedom and the perspective of how things go out in the normal world and what is normal, and i think people who get into this little other world that prison seems to be - a small different world where there is only the prisoners and the guards and everything that happens only they know and the outside world never -, should be thrown right into another cell right next to the prisoners, who also commit these crimes againts each other in prison. I just think prison is a really, really hellish place because it is contrary to the name - correctional facility -, does fuck all for correcting behaviour. I mean just in contrast look at the Nordic prison system (Norway, Sweden etc). The "prison" is literally a place where people work so hard to correct and find out what went wrong with a criminal in the first place and trying to fix it so the person can assimilate back to normal society and not do and repeat harmful activities towards other or him/herself. It is meant to correct and kind of heal, patch up what it can with therapists, doctors. Im not american but from what i seen and in this particular instance in the show if we talk about it, that prison is handled the same way as a business, a corporation.
Im not neccesarily blaming him. I mean every director has its finesse. Like Danielle Villeaneuve makes beautiful shots and consistent storyline with constantly interesting characters who differentiate morally but still the audience can feel empathy with each. Christopher Nolan is able to tell a story from start to finish with handling tension so well and genuienly make me tear in ecstatic moments - Dunkirk. I personally big fan of Zack Snyder who can create dark places and characters but still not leaving the audience in the depth of this darkness. Come to think of it, perhaps he should have done this series... So i think Sheridan can understand and bring alive dark, agressive and morally questionable characters and situations, and just wear out the audience almost as he would say - see how exhausting it is to fight all the time, to be angry all the time, what is happening around you and you not even notice, what do you think of people but hey they are actually?! I think he purposefully does this form of agression filled storytelling and he sees it in a way that...like the way i think he sees it women are not having this form of agression, anger and brutality and if they have it is out of desperation - like the inmate with the young guard, also could you explain to me what that killing was about because i did not understood that whole scene, the womans motivation until she talked with Miriam but still, what the guard specifically had done with her that made her act out this way?! So i think he can not write and create strong woman characters because he does not able to see strenght in any other than physical. He sees them vulnerable, sensitive and these emotions i think have no place in his movies/shows - Yellowstone has Beth Dutton which is fucking ridicolous with the so wanna be badass lines and the unneccesary violence on her part, like if you want to see how he imagines a badass strong woman just look at the scene where Beth gets attack in the office. The whole scene is tasteless, disgusting and unrealistic and really shows that he only sees strenght in a physical form, not emotional or psychological one.
I don't blame Iris either. I just fear for her because she seems so regressed and naive despite her past trauma. I think with her it will turn out whether or not Sheridan can or even want to handle a strong female because it can go two ways - the first is Iris becoming a physical agressor by killing someone and he considers his job well done because well now she is strong, or he writes her into a romantic character or love interest for a male character which is basically discarding her character because being a spouse or SO for a male main character is where shitty handled female characters go to die.
Oh, how i love domesticity in tv shows/movies. I like swimming in details so i always appreciate good set and costume design and the nit-picky stuff which shows a little more of the characters and that scene was just like that. It does not take only half a minute of the run time to show little things about characters like this and it is worth it because after all any kjnd of cinematography is a visual experience. Just because the show verse is like how it is, does not mean that the characters does not have a life or hobby.
@minamartin <333
That's a good point about the show putting a lot of emphasis on Kyle taking his wife for granted. But oh boy, if something happens to the baby...I guess I can take it alright but, just, whoof. There's so little hope for nice things in the future, I was really looking forward to the two seconds of breathing space we might have after the giving birth. And I think becoming a dad could be something that changes Kyle in a good way. But now that you mention it, they could definitely go down the killing Kyle's baby road :(
Yeah, American prisons are largely run as businesses, and they didn't even really show this prison doing what other prisons do, which is having the prisoners work on producing goods to sell but then paying them very very little money for it, which is another component that's degrading.
That's very generous of you to not necessarily blame Sheridan...I think I'm perhaps a little less generous because I'm so frustrated by having my brain tickled by interesting and compelling characters and situations, but then not really seeing it executed as well as it could be. He certainly is fixated in this show (along with Dillon) on a macho worldview, but even with that as a focus, it doesn't mean he has to be bad at writing women—while we're looking at male auteur creators, look at David Chase and his the TV show the Sopranos, which was certainly immersed in a macho, misogynistic, violent criminal subculture, and yet still wrote three-dimensional and intriguing women characters who were as consistent in their characterization as the men. Ditto the Wire by David Simon.
I agree that he part of his struggle to value women's perspective and women characters comes from his prioritization of physical strength and violence, for sure. I haven't seen Yellowstone, and I probably won't, so I don't know what the deal is with Beth Dutton—can you explain?
I can definitely try to talk about my view of what happened with the inmate who killed the guard and talked to Mariam about it afterward!
PLOT
On a plot level, it is fairly straightforward.
We know that the death of both the guards--the guard in the men's prison who was shanked, and the guard in the women's prison who was seduced, killed, and falsely accused of rape--were tied together because they occurred at exactly the same time, and if I recall correctly, the guards were blood relatives who shared the same enemies amongst the inmates.
We know that the guard in the men's prison who was shanked was shanked as part of a wider plot to start the revolt. It was necessary for the ringleader of the revolt to be headed for transport out of the prison in order for him to be rescued by the surrounding inmates (who were supposed to be mopping and cleaning) and escape. It was a deliberate plot.
Therefore, all of these three acts: the shanking of the guard in the men's prison, the seduction and killing of the guard in the women's prison, and the prison revolt, were masterminded and cooperated on by the same people.
Now, we do know that there's communication that goes on between the men's prison and the outside world—people get messages and even drugs and money back and forth. So it is not a stretch to imagine that there is communication between the men's prison and the women's prison. Of course, neither the audience nor Mariam finds this out till later—ONLY the inmate (whose name is Cherry) knows that she is doing this to support the prison revolt.
THE CONVERSATION
First, Mariam enters the room and lays all her cards on the table. She says that "they", the prison guards, want Mariam to take advantage of a relationship they assume that she has with Cherry, and get "the truth" out of her. She also says that whether or not the truth needs to come out depends on what the truth is. So right from the start, we can see that Mariam is distancing herself from the prison guards and approaching Cherry with an open mind. She is honest with Cherry about what is going on, and seems to refuse to manipulate Cherry—or at least, she acknowledges that she doesn't really have a deep emotional bond with Cherry that she can manipulate.
Now, the thing that the prison guards want is for Mariam to appeal for "the truth". But Cherry immediately deconstructs that notion. It's not the truth that the prison guards care about, she says, and she widens the whole conversation to be one about the system. She already tried to tell the truth in her life, when she talked about being abused by her foster parents. The justice system failed her then. It didn't care about the truth. And the other morals that the people in authority, like her foster parents, claimed to have? Turns out they didn't have those morals, because they coerced her into having an abortion. So she outright rejects the idea that the authorities care about the truth, morals, or other people. In fact, she says "the truth" is just something to keep her and "people like" her down. In retrospect, this is Cherry giving Mariam a huge huge hint to her motivation—see, the women's prison doesn't get a revolt, but Cherry clearly feels a resentment towards the system and solidarity with the men in the men's prison, so that's probably part of her motivation for killing the guard and being part of this overall revolt plot.
Mariam understands this on a basic level, because systemic injustice is one of the main subjects that she teaches about. But obviously, she knows nothing about the plot.
Cherry asks why it matters, and Mariam tells her that the dead guard's family will get more money if she says that it wasn't rape. You can see that Cherry's surprise and scorn is palpable when she asks, wait, does they really get money for just him dying? Honestly, if she says that she was not raped, then she is admitting to murder—and the guards seriously think she'll do that? All for the sake of giving the guy's family a little extra money? You can kind of see how ridiculous the whole thing is from her perspective, now that Mariam's been honest with her about the situation.
Mariam says that she wants to know the truth, if the guard committed a crime. Now, Cherry says that he did with very very real emotion in her voice and expression...but Mariam still doesn't understand, see. Mariam thinks that this must mean that the guard committed the rape. But what Cherry has been trying to convey all along is that to her the system is already fucked up and is itself a crime—the system that stuck her with that abusive foster family, the system that keeps her and people like her down. It's certainly important background that the whole reason this guard was chosen to get killed in the first place is not a random thing—he messed up several things, including shooting THE WRONG PERSON—a man is dead because of him that probably shouldn't be—I think this is all contributing to why Cherry can say with conviction that he committed a crime. Because he is yet another one of those guards, yet another person in a position of authority, that does his job badly and hurts those under him; and perhaps, because she views all the guards as criminals in a way because they're part of such an abusive system.
BUT. Mariam doesn't get it, or Cherry's worried that she doesn't get it, right? Like Mariam pretty much still thinks that the guard really did rape Cherry, so when Cherry says, "I feel much better" to Mariam right at the end in such a nonchalant and even mocking voice, you can see in Mariam's face that she realizes then that Cherry really did murder the guard on purpose. That's why she seems distressed when knocking at the door to get out. Maybe Mariam doesn't fully get Cherry's message overall, but she gets the very basic bit, which is that Cherry murdered the guard on purpose, but will definitely refuse to admit it on tape. And Cherry's not at all ashamed of what she did, she's proud of herself.
Obviously I'm not pro-murder, but I found Cherry to be a very interesting minor character because of that scene. Unlike the guys in the other jail, she will never herself get to participate in the prison revolt—she will only end up probably suffering under increased guard mistreatment and retaliation for her having killed a guard. However, it is enough incentive for the OTHER prisoners to be free for a second, for her to be willing to kill...
Or maybe I'm reading too much into her monologue and they paid her off somehow? haha. My interpretation is more interesting, though, I think.
Hopefully my attempt at an explanation makes sense!
I really don't know what to expect from it. Im certainly worried for Mikes little brother. For a police officer he really doesn't handle stress and his emotions well, so if im worried of someone dying is him. Obviously since JR seems to be the main character and now that this serious, unfortunate health scare happened, im afraid a little that this will be the last season or at least there is gonna be a big gap between season 2 and 3 - if there will be a 3.
Im always excited to see more of Sawyer but they always sidelining the only guy who is kind of up for this kind of job and handles it well - i would imagine he had seen and done worse in the army. Im excited if we will see any background or more development from him and im also curious about Milos character - he seems way more intelligent than the usual criminals - see the guy who shot Mitch. And im also curious about Mikes assistant and what is going to happen next episode because it seems like things gonna go really downhill with this pact between the criminal leaders and the law enforcement officers. Betraying them when they were ready to work for their sake is really a bad strategy because it proves the police is clearly untrustable and even worse morally than the criminals. Also please, dont give me more scenes with Mikes mother. Im really grinding my teeth anytime she is on screen. She feels so pathetic and out of place in this whole story. Someone who spent her whole life in this town, she clearly delusional about her situation and her view on criminals is understandable but it is utopic and nonsensical.
But what are you expecting in this season, im curious?!
PS: No one was ever this happy to see one of my messages in their box. :)) Thank you.
@minamartin I am so happy to get another message fr! My reply is so long I have to break it up into chunks, lol.
KYLE MCLUSKEY
this might be "cheating" but I have read an interview with the actor that plays Mike's little brother and what he says does line up with his performance so far. He says that the Kyle character is really struggling both with trauma and with shame because he feels that he didn't conduct himself during the prison revolt, so he's going down a darker path to cope.
I'm pretty sure they won't kill Kyle—quite frankly, I feel like the show as a whole has been pretty tame in terms of killing core characters, and the whole Mitch death was just a fakeout in terms of the show's willingness to kill; this is no Game of Thrones, they're just knocking off side characters. But how far dark Kyle goes is interesting, because he's just kind of A Guy, he's not as visibly cruel as everyone else and he kinda sorta had a mild shot at life simply because he has like 1.5 decent relationships (marriage + mild approval from his mom? lol) idk...
as long as it doesn't bore me, I think I'll be okay with Kyle going bad (or rather worse, lol) and I am not too worried about him dying. I do need him alive, though, because there's a desperate dearth of genuinely affectionate and loyal relationships in the show, so his relationship with his brother needs to keep going somehow.
RENNER + SHOW FUTURE
Agreed re: Renner. I really hope they tied up season 2 decently, because chances of season 3 within the next 3 years is not good. And there's so much uncertainty in the streaming world as it is, and quite frankly the show does not seem to have much critical acclaim or general popularity, so I think it's just riding right now based on the dealmaking power of Taylor Sheridan alone. But that can't last forever. And, as you say, Renner's health problems will probably be prohibitive in the near future, given the physical nature of his role.
SAWYER
I mean, Sawyer has his place in the narrative, but I don't really know if I need that much more depth from him? He's a big old guy with a SWAT team, a gun, and a God complex—he views his function in life as doing dangerous and dirty shit, and the reward for that is swaggering around like Mr Big Dick and getting to dictate who lives and who dies. I'm sure his body count is like, 60% people who were shooting back, 40% people who were unarmed but whatever fuck 'em cause he just decided so.
You can really see that in the scene where one cop gets shot, so he gets all mad and shoots a woman who's being used as a human shield, then just like lets her bleed out while she's crying and pleading for her life even though she literally didn't shoot at any of the cops and was just kind of there? Besides which, he's so calmly and happily down for torture (Afghanistan?) that if they go any deeper with him I'm afraid it'd gonna be like emotionally exhausting for me to deal with all the Darkness™.
But I'd be willing to watch an episode that engaged with him very seriously if I had more faith in Sheridan to be able to do it without just getting carried away with himself on the "omg big man shoot gun" tide. I just don't trust Sheridan enough, I think.
MILO
Milo's really interesting, because so far all the show has done is hint that he's some huge big bad guy, super duper powerful, etc, pulling all the strings—but I was into Sherlock BBC in my youth, you see, so I know now to be wary of that sort of thing, lol. You're totally right in saying that Milo's different from the usual type. So far, the show's not actually been able to present us with any criminal masterminds. Just stupid and desperate/arrogant people, like the guy who shot Mitch, or leaders of certain groups of the population outside the prison (Bunny and the now-dead Confederate guy), or guys with vision but a death wish (the prison revolt leader). There's really never been a character like Milo fully and properly played out on the MoK scene.
Frankly, I'm a little scared he'll turn out to be all hype but very little plot coherence (see: Sherlock BBC trauma lol) but I do think that we'll have some good hints as to how well the show can play him by looking at how well the show deals with all the breadcrumbs it dropped about him in season 1. If the show deals with the serial killer bus again, that's a good sign. If it deals with the three dead feds again, that's a good sign. If it doesn't? Well, then I expect it to be all flash no substance. But fingers crossed. Aidan Gillen deserves to have good material to work with.
THE DEALS + BUNNY
I'm also super curious about this pact that Mike makes with the criminals he threw back in jail, because I think he's insanely naïve and didn't think it through. I understand he's in a desperate situation, but I think he needs to think more carefully.
In the past, when he's been able to deal with conflict, it's always been because he has an okay reputation with everybody and can play the middleman; he's trusted to be honest. In this case, he's gone behind the backs of the criminals and particularly Bunny, which undermines his relationship with him. They'll never be able to see him again as a person who's relatively straightforward and trustworthy in his dealings, even if they (again, mostly Bunny) can understand why he chose to do it.
This is exactly the sort of thing that you were talking about in terms of the season 1 deal between cops and prisoners—"Betraying them when they were ready to work for their sake is really a bad strategy because it proves the police is clearly untrustable and even worse morally than the criminals" SO TRUE.
I think that was maybe always the case, but the way that the police and guards literally turned around and were *extra* heinous to the prisoners for basically asking for what they were promised? Yeah, that was the eye-opener. I mean seriously, some of their demands were super duper low level. Not even law breaking! One of their main demands was better food, which sure, I understand that costs a bit of money, but come the hell on. The response to THAT was to brutalize the prison leaders? No wonder they all said fuck it. You know?
MARIAM MCLUSKEY
Oh lord. Mike's mother is the PREMISE of a good character held in the hands of a man who simply cannot write women lmao. Give her to me. Give me Mike's mother. Give me Mariam. I CAN WRITE HER—he can't. The thing about Mariam that makes me crazy is that she is a purely reactive character, and inconsistently written. If they chose one Mariam mode to be in and stuck with it, she could be interesting and compelling, but they just choose whatever they think is most compelling in the moment, and that puts them at a disadvantage overall and makes her as you say very annoying. I think it's because the audience senses the disingenuous nature of the writers behind her character. They have two Mariams; they need to pick one. They also need to maker her more dimensional. Let me explain.
Mariam #1 is clueless. Nonsensical, as you say. She's the Mariam in season 2, episode 1, who was discomfited (understandably) but the guards, but who tried to exercise a little authority over them and was immediately shut down. This is the Mariam who had the absolutely brainshriveling audacity to try and preach to the assembled inmates about how they had choices, particularly in the context of the brutal massacres involved in the National Guard putting down the prison revolt. Now, this scene is a wonderful scene on its own, isolated, apart from Mariam, so I understand why the writers were so keen on having it; the point of the scene is that the prisoners clearly do not have a choice, that the prison is so militarized/brutal and the assistance offered to them is so little, that it's actually laughable and embarrassing to watch a teacher tell them that their future is in their hands, and if they just study, they can change their lives. Great scene! But stupid, stupid scene to be coming in the context of Mariam having grown up in this system, with a son who went to prison, a son who's a cop, a third son who took the place of her husband to be a sort of town fixer...it's just ludicrous. But the writers placed their urge for Drama and Messaging over their commitment to character. So it makes her look so stupid.
Mariam #2 is clear-eyed, disillusioned, and depressed. She is violently robbed by a young man, but then sees him brought to her by the cops having clearly suffered a beating, and she's able to see what frankly I think most of the characters on the show aren't able to see—that all of this does nothing. Does nothing for her. First of all, putting this kid in jail does not actually make her any safer, because the cause of robbery in her neighborhood isn't that the cops don't arrest enough people, it's poverty, lack of education, abuse, EVERYTHING that she's heard about from her pupils in the prisons. She knows perfectly well that throwing the kid in prison will not make anything better for her. She is very sure, however, that throwing the kid in prison will be bad for the kid. It is supposed to make her feel better, as it clearly makes her son and all her son's friends feel better, that she has the power to enact revenge on the kid. But she's too damn smart to buy into that, and she's not sadistic enough to enjoy it. You can tell in this scene that it's not an optimistic view that she has of the kid, either—she's not letting the kid go because she thinks the kid is a good person, deep down, or has a bright future. Quite the opposite! She believes that the kid will die in the violence that envelops Kingstown and all its residents. She just thinks it's pointless to add on a little bit of extra violence before then. This is also a great scene that adds to the themes of cyclical violence that MoK is trying to grapple with.
BUT YOU CAN'T HAVE MARIAM #1 AND MARIAM #2 IN THE SAME PERSON LMAO. They're just not compatible characterizations! They're not!
Finally, I think the reason Mariam does come across as so "pathetic", as you say, is that Sheridan can't think of a single thing for her to do that is active. It is ALL reactive. How many scenes have we seen of her simply hearing that one of her sons is in trouble, and then looking worried about it? It's boring. It's boring as shit. Never once has she actively done anything herself to make her sons safer, except to repeatedly beg Kyle to get out of Kingstown. Fine, but that's boring if repeated over and over. It might be realistic to see a relationship stuck in a pattern, but let's be real, this is fiction, we did not come here to see stuff be in boring stasis.
Even more disturbing than Mariam's passivity in her relationships is her passivity in regards to her politics. She seems to be the only person in the show (other than Bunny, perhaps) who ever acknowledges the specific issues of racism and classism and the country's whole history that has brought Kingstown to this point, this point at which its entire society and economy runs on the miserable lives trapped in its prisons. And yet, so what? What does she do about it? Jack shit. All she does is talk.
She teaches her students a few of the facts of history, but does nothing to equip them for the future. Yes, the Native Americans were robbed and cheated. Does she ever talk about what tactics they tried to do to resist—about what lessons oppressed people of today might take from that history in their own struggle to survive? No, of course she doesn't. Not only is her teaching of history a very passive thing, she also fails to teach any other concrete skills or information that would be so needed by the inmates. Legal information. Literacy. Even math. Come ON, man. This wouldn't be such an issue if she wasn't, as I say, the only person on the show who's articulating the roots of the chaos in Kingstown. It would also be less of an issue if she wasn't meant to be super duper In the Know; you can have a well-intentioned but useless academiabrained character, or you can have a character who has decades of deep personal experience with the system on multiple fronts. But they can't! be! the same! character!
Ultimately, this is not Mariam's fault (she doesn't exist lmao she's fictional) it's Sheridan's fault. Because quite frankly, even though I think he plays lip service to knowing about the sins of the country etc, I don't think he really knows much about the work that people are doing to fight it—and he's not interested in it, either. He just wants some faux-deep, dour history lessons to lay in the background of this show about brutalization of everyone in the prison industrial complex, to give it a lil gravitas or whatever. Oh, spare me.
Lmao I think I did just get a little angry in writing that. But I had a lot of thoughts. I watched the whole season 1 in two days, it made my head go bzzzzzz 😂
