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@modnaegi replied to your post “@modnaegi replied to your post “do we think vivienne is elf racist?...”

like the behaviours you were describing were derived from prejudice against elves. you sai so yourself. she hadn't been around elves, had no idea how to behave around them because she never bothered to learn. that's racism, buddy

@modnaegi replied to your post “@modnaegi replied to your post “do we think vivienne is elf racist?...”

also against she's extremrly cruel to both sera and solas bc they both exhibit typical Autism bejaviour. god, keep up

Alright, so now I am convinced that you did not actually read the post. But in the case that you did and just require further details I suppose I can expand on this.

But before I even get into that two things:

1. I’d just like to say I really don’t appreciate your condescending tone, telling me what is racism, and what is ableism. (Especially when you’re wrong.) Being a person of colour and autistic does not suddenly exempt me from making mistakes on those subjects, nor does it mean no one should correct me when I am wrong, but it does put me at a greater understanding of them than the average neurotypical white person. And your “god, keep up” comment in itself has casual ableist tones. So, it’s pretty interesting how you are going to claim a Black character is being racist and ableist to two white characters and present yourself in such a way.

2. I can’t say it any better than @chasindcole did in a reply: “the lengths reaches and gymnastics yall will go through to be able to call a black woman racist...”

First, I must reiterate that Sera is the one that initiates almost every single fight they get in, by saying cruel things to Vivienne. And you cannot look at this situation as just an elf and human character interaction, but as a Black and white character interaction, too. Sera, a white woman, picks and prods at Vivienne, a Black woman. She tells her that no one likes her, that she will never gain respect from nobility, shoves her ass in her face, spits in her food, calls her a evil, calls her a bitch, puts a venomous snake in her drawers...:

Sera: I've heard things about you, Vivvy. Vivienne: It is properly Madame Vivienne, official mage to the Imperial Court. Sera: Yes, that’s what I heard. Not the title, the snotty bit. Vivienne: How ever shall I recover from your condemnation? Sera: You’re still doing it. Can you even shut it off? Vivienne: For you, my dear? No.

Sera: Hey Viv! Vivvy! Look at this! I've got something for you! Vivienne: Darling, it's your bottom. Again. As bony and sad as it was the last dozen times you've displayed it. Sera: It's my butt! Vivienne: Maker, however shall I endure this horror. Someone fetch me a fainting couch.

Sera: They'll never really like you, Vivvy. Vivienne: Sera, dear, whatever has your scattered mind conjured now? Sera: Those nobs in Orlais. They barely like their own kin. And you're a mage. Vivienne: Your failing-- among many-- is that you presume I desire approval. Power does not require that I be "liked." Sera: Well, halfway there, then.

Sera: (Coughs) Who's a bitch? Vivienne: Charming, darling. Sera: Fact.

Sera: Enjoying your food lately, Vivvy? Vivienne: Ugh. Shall I assume you have altered my meals? Set the servants against me and encouraged sputum-based rebellion? Sera: Of course not, I would never. But you can't know, right? Vivienne: (Sighs.) Rest assured, I will eat privately from my own stores from now on. Blackwall: Whose idea was that, then? Sera: Varri-- MINE!

Sera: I bet you left a trail. Vivienne: Whatever are you on about now, dear? Sera: What you used to be. Wherever you're from. Little people will know about you. Vivienne: We all have something we used to be, haven't "we," dear? Done things "we" would rather die than have known? Vivienne: By all means, escalate, but I will answer in kind, armed with painful history I am sure is better left to your own sad memory. Sera: She's frigging evil, she is.

Sera: Checked your drawers recently, Vivvy? Vivienne: Hmm? Oh, yes, my dear. Although I was rather well stocked with that particular shade of viper. So I sent it back. Sera: Sent... sent it back? Vivienne: Yes. It should make its way to you at some point. Vivienne: I was most concerned it might have difficulty on the steps, so I gave it legs. Six of them. Sera: That's not... you're making fun, right? Vivienne: Do you sleep with your mouth open? I should avoid that, it was heavy with eggs. Skitter skitter.

Vivienne has no reason to like someone who is so horrible to her.

And yes, she does on occasion retaliate, for example threatening to search for Sera’s secrets if Sera searches for hers.

The one bit of banter between them that I would call ableist is when Vivienne says Sera is incoherent... But guess what? That is literally every single character in the game, and is the fault of Sera’s writing, not Vivienne’s, because Lukas mcfucking Kristjanson must get his jerkoff on to seeing women abused. More on this here. Gaider has explained that when it comes to party banters, each writer writes some with their characters, and then the other writers look over and check off if theirs are in character. I am willing to bet 1000% that banter was from Kristjanson, because it matches his style to a T:

Sera: Cruel bunch, your lot, Vivvy. Don't know how you live with what they think of you. Vivienne: My dear, despite your egalitarian protests you are ever so susceptible to the opinions of others. Sera: I don't give a squirt what anyone says. Vivienne: Of course not, coherent speech is your nemesis, but it is clear you care a great deal about what they THINK. Vivienne: Take heart that you are not among the nobility, little Sera. You would not survive. Sera: No one wants to join your stupid club! Vivienne: Of course not, dear.

I would also like to point out that this is only in response to Sera’s cruelty to her, yet again.

So, if you are going to consider this single line enough to label Vivienne as ableist, than you better label every single character in Inquisition the same, including the Inquisitor themselves. This is not to say it’s right, but it is to say that Vivienne does not deserve shit for it, Lukas Kristjanson does.

And yet, with everything Sera does and says to Vivienne, she still exhibits some compassion for Sera.

As I said in the original post, Vivienne at one point offers Sera aid with her Red Jennies, by giving them a tip off on a bad noble she’s come across. But Sera is reluctant to accept it simply because she doesn’t want Vivienne to benefit, despite the fact that Vivienne benefits in the exact same way his people benefit by taking him down; by being rid of an asshole, who for all we know could be just as bad as the all the antiblack racism she has to deal with from other nobles:

Vivienne: I have something for your silly group, Sera dear. Sera: Right, I bet you have plenty. Vivienne: A simple note for your Red Jenny associates. I believe it may point to anonymous holdings of one Lord Samerath. Sera: I know him! Pisshead's hard as ice with his people. Vivienne: Indeed. It would be a shame if his involvement in certain activities was revealed, his position at court weakened. Sera: So, we hurt a real prick! But you swoop in? We help people, but it helps you more? (Frustrated growl.) Vivienne: Try not to cry openly, dear, it is ever so demeaning.

Sera’s dislike of Vivienne apparently outweighs her desire to bring down jerks. I don’t get it.

As for Solas: I honestly have no idea how you even came to such a conclusion. Solas and Vivienne actually have multiple interactions discussing magical endeavours in quite a professional and respectful manner, including elven magic. She compliments his knowledge and abilities, and in return to her.

Vivienne: Solas dear, do you find your magic affected at all by the fluctuations in the Fade? Solas: Nothing unexpected, given the energies emanating from the rifts. And you, Enchanter? Vivienne: The same.

Vivienne: Corypheus is a complex creature. To draw upon so many different sources of power. Vivienne: He has his own magic, he draws from the blight, the artifact he carries is elven... Vivienne: And now, he uses a demon to create a false Calling to fool the mages. Solas: The false Calling was blight magic. The demon merely amplified its power. Vivienne: This ancient magister is like a man drinking from three wineglasses at once. Solas: And one of the glasses is poisoned.

Vivienne: I confess, Solas, I expected you to be back at the Temple of Mythal. Vivienne: Some powerful magic yet remains there... if it can be trusted. Solas: For once, we agree. Many relics were lost for good reason. Vivienne: You explore the Fade to ferret out such secrets, do you not? Solas: When I awaken each morning, all I have with me are those secrets. Solas: The power at the Temple of Mythal is tangible, potent... and far too easy to misuse. Vivienne: We are not so different after all, my dear apostate. We both believe magic must be limited safely. Solas: Only a fool would ignore such a stark reminder of the destruction of an empire. Solas: We may disagree on many things, Enchanter. But neither of us is a fool. Vivienne: You are too kind.

To again repeat what I wrote in the original ask, every occasion where they don’t get along, is because Vivienne underestimates his abilities as an apostate. She has been told her whole life that apostates are dangerously untrained, and there is not much Vivienne cares more for than seeing that every mage get proper training for their abilities. She says as much numerous times. She expresses concern for Solas, and offers him help. In actuality we know he does not need help, but she does not.

Vivienne: So, an apostate? Solas: That is correct, Enchanter. I did not train in your Circle. Vivienne: Well, dear, I hope you can take care of yourself, should we encounter anything outside your experience. Solas: I will try, in my own fumbling way, to learn from how you helped seal the rifts at Haven. Solas: Ah, wait. My memory misleads me. You were not there.

Vivienne: Solas darling, if you wish instruction in proper magical attacks, do let me know. Solas: I will. Perhaps you will direct me to a Circle mage who does not front-load her barriers?

Vivienne: I'm sure you know exactly what you're doing, Solas, but a word of advice? Solas: Oh, I look forward to this. Go ahead, Enchanter. Vivienne: You set your coattails on fire with that last spell. Solas: Perhaps what you perceived was merely a figment of the Fade. Vivienne: (Laughter) I would not claim your familiarity with the Fade, but I recognize fire when I see it, darling. Solas: It did go out eventually. It was not worth mentioning. Vivienne: Not for you, perhaps.

Vivienne is not even being rude in these banters. Well, save for when he lit himself on fire, but come on, that’s amusing.

And in similar fashion to Sera, Solas picks at Vivienne’s insecurities as well, totally unprompted:

Solas: Your position in the Orlesian court must be frustrating, Enchanter. Vivienne: Darling, I have no idea what you might be implying. Solas: With your magic you are kept at arm's length, never able to play the Game to its fullest. Some part of you must always wonder if you could have gone farther had you not been a mage. Vivienne: Don't be absurd. Without magic, I doubt the Orlesian court would have interest in me at all. Solas: That must rankle as well.

Solas and Vivienne may not agree on a lot of things, and there are a few cases of hostility between them, but they have respect for each other. After the Winter Palace, she tells him that she hopes he was not mistaken for a servant, knowing full well the treatment of elves in Orlais. (Like, if you reunite Celene and Briala she’ll comment that it will only end in bloodshed, because she knows that’s exactly what happened last time.)

I honestly have no idea how you could consider anything between Vivienne and Solas ableist.

And now, I will repeat from the post yet again re Vivienne not knowing about elves: SHE HAD VERY LIMITED ACCESS TO LEARNING ANYTHING. It’s not like there is the internet in Thedas, where she can Google shit! She blatantly says there are very few books available on elven magic, and that all her information is third hand! She is not being racist by asking questions in a respectful manner. However, the way that DA:I pushes it’s anti Dalish mage agenda by using her, Minaeve, and Iron Bull has mouthpieces to shove in retcons paints her as ignorant. This is part of a greater problem and not about Vivienne.

The biggest problem, from what I have seen, is that people are not willing to listen to what Vivienne has to say, or even try to befriend her. If you are nice and respectful to Vivienne, she in return is one of the most compassionate, hardworking, inspiring, and loyal members of the Inquisition. Treat her with value, and you will see her value. Dismiss her, and you never will.

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