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Trying again to post my Ragnarok blabbering....

Let’s try and see if tumblr still thinks it has too many paragraphs. If so, I shall split it into two. Reminder that this is just me spewing out everything that bothers me because I actually have so desperately few Thor(ki) pals on tumblr that I'm basically jumping on any opportunity to actually talk to someone about it. Which is why you precious few who commented are now getting the full broadside of my entire jumbled misery. I apologize in advance. You really don't have to read all of it. I’m also not looking for a grand discussion or anything. I just need to get it out of my system.

I respect that there are people who liked the movie, and I don't mean to spoil it for anyone else, so what I'm going to say here is all just a very personal, subjective impression that is by no means anything else but an opinion. Also I feel kind of stupid because the film has been out for a year and...yeah well.

On we go.

upstartpoodle replied to your post “I’ve finally seen Thor: Ragnarok (yes yes, I’m late to the party, I...”

I haven't seen it since I knew from the various spoilers I've seen that it wasn't really my cup of tea, so I can't really comment about the film as a whole, but I've seen a lot of complaints from other people about inconsistent characterisation, too many jokes, dropping the ball on plot points established in the previous films, etc. There's an increasingly long post that keeps cropping up on my dash about it.

calicoskatts replied to your post

I enjoyed it but for me it was jsut another entertaining movie from Marvel but nothing particularly interesting. I thought I was watching Guardians of the Asgardians personally. I’ve been put off from Marvel over the last bit tbh, so maybe that’s why? Like I said, I enjoyed it but I wasn’t wowed or anything.

nelioe replied to your post

*raises hand* I agree, I too thought the movie was awful

miusmius replied to your post

I honestly loved it!

hiko73 replied to your post

What? The movie was amazing from beginning to end, imho....I feel at a loss why you hated it so much.

So, before I say anything, I need to explain that I basically knew the film's plot from gifs and Youtube clips before I watched the DVD, although I didn't know all of it. I already thought some of the scenes sucked big time from the snippets I had seen (Get help, the obedience disk), but actually there were a few that I thought were bad and that turned out rather good in the movie. I’ll come to those in a minute.

So, I think seeing the movie in its entirety for the first time was what did me in. Really, my brain hurt after the end credits rolled off the screen, and I felt like brainwashed. I mean, I knew it was different, and loud, and colourful, and that’s not what I’m having a problem with. It’s rather…a conglomerate of things that just rub me the wrong way.

I’m not mentioning the inconsistent characterisation and the many loose threads that never get cleared up sufficiently (an entire fandom has been waiting for an explanation of how Loki survived Svartalfheim! I had expected it to be a major plot point early in Ragnarok, but it wasn’t even mentioned apart from ‘I thought you were dead’. Well yes, thanks Thor, me too. I’d like to know how he managed not to be dead!).

I’ll also not mention obvious plotholes because well, it’s Marvel we’re talking about, so things like that are expected, and I’ll neither mention obvious flaws on the technical side (too many rapid cuts, weird camera angles or frames) because artistic liberty and all. What does get on my nerves is how almost any serious scene is broken up by something ‘funny’. No two characters can have a quiet talk for two seconds before some joke is cracked that does or does not fit the situation. It’s…tiresome. Especially since most of the jokes aren’t really funny.

Here's a thing: a have a weird humour, I Hate comedy with a capital H, and I despise nothing more than random comedic slapstick elements in an otherwise serious film. Why for heaven's sake can no one make a serious movie anymore? Argh. This film is literally titled "The end of the world" and yet there's a joke at every corner, and no it isn't a black-humoured jab at fate, it's the kind of knee-slapper that's only funny for half the time it takes, and not again afterwards. It makes me angry. Comedy has to be precise and on-point to work. There's a lot of well-placed comedy in the previous Thors and the Avengers; comedic elements that are funny even when you watch the scene a second and a third time. Now, Taika Waititi takes comedy to an entirely new level that isn't necessarily one I like. I also need to say that although I don't know him personally, he comes across as a very taxing person, taxing in a sense that his constant good spirits and giddiness and sort of bouncy energy would definitely wear out my social batteries if I had to be around him all the time. It wore out Tom Hiddleston's, as we can see in several behind the scenes footages where Taika takes to fooling around in front of the camera while poor Tom would just like to get on with his work.

Anyway, back to the movie. Of the major things that rub me wrong is that it does have a very problematic attitude towards violence.

It is rated for a viewing age 12 and up in my country, but I sure as hell would not let my children watch it. There are scenes that come down to nothing but random violence for…well, not even the sake of anything. Hela just skewering Fandral and Volstagg like that? What for? If it’s meant to establish an emotional connection and show just how dangerous Hela is, it fails spectacularly, because it is not given enough time, or enough emotional room. It’s just ZAP and they’re dead; if you don’t look closely you don’t even realise it’s them because they've never had a moment to being reintroduced. Half of the audience has probably already forgotten who they were.The scene with Hogun is gruesome as is the slaughtering of an entire army, and it does nothing whatsoever in terms of significance. Later on, we see many other characters just resorting to brainless mass shootings and seemingly enjoying the heck out of it. Valkyrie, Skurge, you name them. There's a very problematic message in having a character stumble off an enormous spaceship, having them fall off the gangway drunk because it looks cool, and then proceed to mow down a bunch of innocent and mostly unarmed scrappers on a trash planet.

Now, I don’t have a problem with violence in general. I just don’t like the way it is presented here.

There were a few scenes that were actually good.

Thor and Dr. Strange for example, even though the plot could easily have done without that sideline, and Benedict Cumberbatch is also only pouring 50% of his effort into his performance - still, it’s solid, classy acting.

The scenes between Thor and Loki on Midgard in the very beginning stand out because both Hemsworth and Hiddleston are given enough time to actually act out their characters' emotions without being interrupted by a joke. I really liked the dynamics here and I wish the film would have picked up on that course.

Some of Hela’s scenes where a little background on her character is revealed were good as well, but overall I thought Cate Blanchett was alternating between gross overacting and doing minimal duty as per contract. It would have been nice to have her on screen some more, and learn a bit more about her past and her motivation. Revenge for being imprisoned by Odin? Sounds familiar. Hela, darling, how about a little talk about that with Loki over tea and biscuits? I'm sure the two of you could have shared some experience. (Also major kudos to Loki for NOT tearing into Odin like "Aha, so throwing your kids into a cell seems to be your standard educational measure, dad.")

Anthony Hopkins was awful. He has never been good in any of the previous films, one of my main reasons for my major dislike of Odin, and I don't know if he's getting senile or what, he just was really really bad in this one. It only adds to the awful characterisation of Odin altogether. The last straw was his dealing with the Hela situation: "There's this threat that is coming for Asgard, born of one of my own mistakes, there's nothing you can do about it and I don't give a shit so bye and good luck, I guess." Good thing he disappeared, or I would personally have crawled into the TV and shoved the old man off the cliff.

So, what little else I liked was actually any scenes with Heimdall - I wasn’t a big fan of Heimdall, ever, but he seriously kicks ass here, not only because of superb acting on Idris Elba's part but also because his scenes aren’t interrupted by hectic cuts or off the mark jokes.

Surprisingly, Skurge’s story arc was interesting as well. Now, I don’t like Karl Urban - you've probably figured out by now that there isn't an awful lot of people that I like. Basically I think his character is rather unnecessary - why not use one of the established characters? Why not let Fandral or Hogun be torn between right and wrong? Anyway, Karl does play him well and I see why a character like that would be in there (his death though? More random, unnecessary violence).

Bruce Banner / The Hulk really went on my nerves the entire time. The fight between he and Thor is well choreographed, but the entire sequence is too long *yawns* Some of the stuff with Thor in Hulk’s room is actually funny, but that was that.

And then Loki. Please prepare yourself for a rant of epic proportions.

Now, I do admit I'm biased because I love Loki; I've loved him in Norse mythology ever since I was a child. I went to study Old Norse for a bit mainly because of the Edda and Loki, and I love what Hiddleston has done with the character in these films. I also get that this is Thor: Ragnarok and not Loki: Ragnarok and that he is a supporting character just like all the others.

That said, in the few scenes that he actually has - you don't really need Loki for what he does. Any random side character could have stolen the ship's codes, or placed Surtur's crown in the flame. That last bit was a bow to the original myth (and the comics, I suppose) where it's really Loki who releases Surtur and causes Ragnarök (which is why I -love- the 'saviour' scene because it's a reference to Loki arriving at the scene of the final battle at the helm of the ship of the dead, called Naglfar, in Norse myth). But - in the film, all in all, you don't really need Loki for all that. Valkyrie could have done it, or Heimdall, or Skurge for that matter (what a heroic plot that would have made for him!).

And there's more to it than just lamentably little of Loki in this film. The entire film, to me, seems like a deliberate attempt to ban Loki to the background, give him as little screentime as possible, and make him look ridiculous altogether. Not only is his character basically replaceable in what he does, no -

(I've seen quite a lot of the BTS stuff in advance, so this plays into it as well.)

Let's start with the small things:

- There's hardly any close-ups of Loki in the entire film, Norway being the one great exception (consequently, he rocks the scene).You can always see him do something in the background, but the camera is never close enough to pick up clearly on any emotions or anything. Best example is the sofa scene at the Grandmasters'. If that was shown correctly, you would be able to read the entire course of the fight from Loki's face - there's glee, there's worry, there's schadenfreude, there's hope and admiration and anger and frustration and everything you can possibly imagine he goes through, but we are shown only mushed images of it. The entire dragging long battle between Hulk and Thor would have been way more interesting if more of Loki's facial expressions had been cut into it.

- Basically all he's good for is delivering cues for Thor and being there as a projection screen for Thor's heroism.

- The camera always seems slightly out of focus; Loki is there but he's not, somewhere at the back or to the side. Even when he's meant to be in the picture, the camera frame is just this little bit out of focus or he's being filmed at a weird angle.

- Weird angles. It's a signature thing for Loki in this film. He's being filmed from behind, above, below - now don't get me wrong, it's a very interesting artistic device - and the scene where he appears before the grandmaster, filmed through the transparent floor is a masterpiece in terms of camera angle - but when it's 80% of these frames and the rest is 15% hovering in the background and 5% good, clear close-ups, it conveys a message about the filmmaker's attitude towards this character - and in Loki's case, this message is not doing him any favours.

- More weird stuff: time frames. As I said above, you only ever see Loki doing unimportant stuff. Sitting around talking to the Grandmaster's cronies, getting "captured" on purpose, trying to get through to Thor. We don't see him doing any kind of stiff like Thor does, nothing "heroic", we don't even see him do any significant amount of magic. The only heroic moment he has, at the very end, is again botched by off-kilter dialogue ("I'm not doing get help" just sounds soooo out of place at this moment) and weird framing. Like, Thor gets all these super-cool, physical fighting scenes, full-on frontal, kicking and punching the shit out of everyone. Again, I get that this is Thor: Ragnarok, and we also have the Hulk and Valkyrie who need their hero moments. But we do know that Loki is just as good a fighter as everyone else, he fights differently, but he's very capable of defending himself and others, as seen in Dark World. In Ragnarok, he's right there in the middle of the fight, but you never see him do anything. You see him close in on someone, cut, then you see him pull out a knife of a body or juggle his helmet or whatever, but never any real action that proves how capable he is as a fighter, not like Thor gets them all the time. You see him jump, and roll, and fall on his ass, or doing a pirouette and tossing his hair back afterwards. The focus is not on him doing his share of defending Asgard, but on how he's a weak and pathetic fighter (this post explains it with great visuals). The thing is, somewhat heroic moments have been filmed, but have been left out in favour of more ‘funny’ sequences.

- Talking about ridiculousness: There's a total of seven scenes where Loki falls on his ass, his face, or is somehow on the ground for some reason when it's totally not necessary. In comparison, in Dark World and Avengers, he was only ever on the ground when either defeated, or due to battle action, not just for shit and giggles.

The one at Dr Strange actually makes me wince from the sheer impact with which he hits the floor, bouncing back two feet high in the air (can’t find the gif right now, but he does), and everyone in the cinema laughs. Actually laughs, like this is some funny one-liner. Someone's dropping from the sky and hitting the floor real hard and y'all laugh? Like no, this ain't funny at all, not to me.

- What are these scenes actually good for? Why did the previous films set him up as a master magician who - as even Dr Strange says - is a force to be reckoned with, when everyone can just shove him to the ground like that? Why is nearly everyone suddenly more powerful than him?

- Shitty lines/shitty scenes: 'Safe passage through the anus'. Boy, it makes me cringe for poor Tom who actually had to say this shit out loud, or play stuff like the (thankfully deleted) portaloo sequence. Like, wow. I mean, I know I have a different type of humour from nearly everybody else, but this shit is just so not funny, and I really hate Taika Waititi for even including such lines and scenes in the script. I mean, I get that he favours Thor over Loki, but was that really necessary? It's so cringeworthy it makes my teeth hurt.

- (On a minor sidenote, can we talk about how it also speaks volumes that Hiddleston was given a costume that he can barely move in and that makes him visibly uncomfortable, yet no one gives a shit?)

To sum it up, I don't like how Ragnarok treats the character of Loki and ignores all of his potential in favour of cheap jokes. It says a lot if a script needs to make fun of one character in order to let its main character appear in a better light. Taika talks about how Thor's and Loki's relationship is at the focus of the film and how they finally get to resolve their problems. I'm sorry, but I don't see any of that. I don't see any brotherly moments or reconciliation or at least an attempt to make things right. And that brings me to the one character that I have the biggest problem with: Thor.

Now, the general consensus was that Thor grows, he learns, he takes up responsibility, he has this great character development that makes him into a better man. I don't see that. What I see is a man who uses and abuses everyone in his path to achieve his own ends. He thinks he can command Valkyrie by repeatedly reminding her of her oath to the throne (the throne being a very prominent motivation for Thor, as we shall see) even when she's made clear that she gives a shit. When that doesn't work, he keeps trying to guilt-trip her, and when that doesn't work either, he fakes concern to get her attention, and once he has it, he cruelly pushes all the buttons that he knows will make her yield (basically telling her: you can either forget everything and rot on this planet, or you can do something about it and help me).

He manipulates Banner in the same way because he needs the Hulk for his Asgard mission. I mean, telling Bruce he prefers him over Hulk, and telling Hulk he prefers him over Bruce - I get that it's meant to be funny, but when you think about it, it isn't. It's manipulative as heck and it's exactly the kind of shit he always accused Loki of: lying to get his way.

And when it comes to Thor's interactions with Loki, he has not learned a single thing. He still treats Loki the way he always did: a scapegoat at worst, a convenience at best. In Norway, after Odin departs, Thor doesn’t hesitate to immediately accuse Loki of both Odin’s death and bringing about Hela as a consequence - as if Loki had any inkling that this was gonna happen. He wouldn’t be so stupid as to bring destruction to Asgard on purpose, remember it’s the only home he ever truly knew, so even if he did let things slip while posing as Odin, he surely never meant for Hela and Ragnarok to happen. He was just as surprised about the Hela revelation that Thor was, and as for Odin’s death - I doubt that this was intended. Especially since we still don’t know xactly how Loki got rid of Odin, but if he’d wanted to kill him, he could certainly have done so while Odin was weak and defenseless, but he didn’t - he just wanted him out of the way, not dead. Yet Thor completely assumes Loki is to blame for all of it, and as a consequence he falls back into his abusive treatment of his brother.

Yes, all I see is an abusive sibling who purposefully manipulates his mentally unstable younger brother. He knows what Loki has been through in the past; moreover, he has heard from Odin himself just how everyone in this family was played and lied to. He has seen what that did to Loki in the past. Thor knows exactly what's at the core of his brother's mind: the ambition to gain his family's approval, a fear of being abandoned, a deep-rooted sense of worthlessness and the ever-prominent desire to impress his older brother. Of course Loki sucks at saying all this out loud, and Thor probably doesn't know the full extent of the damage, but after the events of Avengers and Dark World he must at least have an inkling of what's going on inside that mind.

And yet he goes ahead and uses all of Loki's greatest fears against him:

"Our paths diverged a long time ago" - no they didn't, he just never let Loki catch up to him.

"It's what you always wanted" (never seeing each other again) - have you even paid attention to your brother, you big fool?

"But you, you stay the same", "you could be so much more" etc. - and being what, exactly? Thor's thrall, tagging along behind him, helping out when shit hits the fan, and otherwise keeping his mouth shut? To Thor, Loki is only acceptable when he behaves like Thor wants him to. He fails to see that it's Loki who's forced to change more than anyone else. He was forced to change almost first thing after being born, from a Jötun baby to an Aesir one just to please his new father. He's constantly forced to change to adapt to everyone's expectations: Odin's, Frigga's, Thor's own. And when he refuses to play along, he's the one at fault.

There are two scenes in Ragnarok in particular that I find hard to watch in respect of Thor's abusive qualities. First, the elevator scene /Get Help.

Loki tells Thor no three times, he even gives him a reason why he doesn't want to do Get Help (which, considering Loki and his difficulties to express emotion, to Thor no less, is a big deal). I don’t know about y’all, but if my sibling told me they found something humiliating, which is several steps up the uncomfortable scale from "I just don't like it", I would never force them into it. Thor has to respect his brother's feelings and stop right there. A no is a no, even from Loki, even in this situation, especially considering how the entire move is nonsense after all - but Thor doesn't stop. He disrespects his brother's wishes, he ignores Loki's feelings, and what's worse, he even belittles him for it and laughs it off: No, for me it's not.

Yes, well, Thor baby, guess what? It's not always about you.

Even worse is the taser/obedience disk scene. It makes me physically cringe. And I will happily fist-punch everyone who tries to tell me it's just "a joke" or "friendly sibling barter" or wasn't "meant to hurt Loki" or that Thor "didn't know". I'm sorry, but nope.

Thor knows exactly what the obedience disc does, how it hurts. He has absolutely NO reason to use it on Loki. Loki has been playing along to his plans, he has even tried to offer Thor an explanation and a possible way out, but at that time Thor decided to throw a tantrum and sulk. Did he really think Loki would go through with that half-arsed attempt of collecting the 'reward' for Thor's capture from the Grandmaster, when just some hours before Loki has told Thor that he Grandmaster is a lunatic and that he basically wants to leave Sakaar just as bad as Thor does? Did Thor even listen??? Not to mention that there never was a 'reward' promised by the Grandmaster; instead a threat of public execution looms over Loki if he fails, so the reward he speaks of is possibly, once again, getting away with his life (while using the time this buys him to come up with a means of escape).

There was no reason at all to place the taser disc on Loki and leave him there - besides, Thor must have planned to use the disk even before he could be sure Loki was going to betray him, so it was Thor's plan all along to leave his brother there for whatever sick reason. How could he be so sure Loki would find a way to free himself? How could he be sure the rebels would be the ones to find Loki, and not the Grandmaster, or Topaz, or any of the hundreds of guards that swarm the place? Not to mention that time passes differently on Sakaar, so who knows how long Loki lay there writhing in agony. Thor walking off telling him "Good luck, I guess" while his brother is in obvious physical pain, and at the mercy of a crazy dictator, is the ultimate cruelty. But the throne is always more important, eh?

How could Thor be sure Loki would follow him to Asgard and come to his aid? Seriously, Loki could just have taken that ship and flown to the other end of the universe for all he cared. He's the only Asgardian on a ship full of refugees, he has no reason at all to help Thor, not after the taser disc and the general way Thor treated him, and YET he comes after his big brother because he desperately seeks Thor's approval, and Thor knew that and manipulated his brother into exactly this behaviour back there in the elevator.

And does Loki get a thank you? Not even! All he gets is a flippant "You're late" (everyone who tells me that's 'friendly sibling banter' again must have a truly fucked up relationship with their sibling), and then he's being ordered off to the vault to basically perform an act that could cost his life, without Thor even wasting a second thought to it. Well, we've already seen in Dark World how little Thor cares for Loki, as he just leaves his dead little brother behind to rot on a foreign planet. Doesn't even send anyone to come and collect the body or something. Doesn't even seem to care in Ragnarok whether Loki has made it out of Asgard alive or not (does he check frantically if his brother is aboard as they float off into space? No...but hey look, there's a throne, and people call him majesty, so all is grand).

Not even the "I'm here" scene does anything for their relationship. How often does Loki have to prove that he will sacrifice himself for Thor, and how often does he get nothing in return but accusations ("You faked your death!", "You killed our father!"), dubious compliments ("Maybe there's some good left in you") or at the most Thor throwing him a bone of approval: "Maybe you're not so bad after all" instead of "Thanks for saving our arses".

So, is this 'growing'? Is this 'mature'? Has Thor learned one single thing that makes him a better character? I don't think so. He takes up right where his father left, caring only for his throne, and manipulating his brother just the way Odin has always done. Yes, he became a little less uptight, and yes there's the new Thor who's sassy, nonchalant, doesn't give a fuck, doesn't let himself be played by his brother's schemes. I love the way Chris Hemsworth is playing this new Thor as opposed to the previous films. It's fun to watch him finally fill this role with a bit of spice. I really really like this new Thor. The problem is, I like how the new Thor is, but not what he does.

All in all, I think what happened was that Taika and Chris Hemsworth decided it was time to put the focus on Thor and make his character the center of the plot - which is fine, with it being Thor: Ragnarok and all, but why does it have to be at the expense of another great character that could have been used in so many other, different, better ways for the plot? I think they tried deliberately to shift a bit of Loki's coolness and cunning to Thor who, let's face it, has been a rather one-dimensional character in the previous films.

What I'm going to say now is unpopular, and probably mean, but it's the vibe I'm getting from day one since I started watching any Thor movies and BTS and interviews: All of this ties in nicely with Chris Hemsworth coming across as borderline jealous of Hiddleston and the success he gained for his portrayal of the Loki character, who was never supposed to steal Thor's spotlight. It's a shame Taika Waititi rolled with it in Ragnarok and actively added to this fiasco by way of bad filmmaking.

On a final personal note: Just yesterday before watching the film I wrote a little scene post-Ragnarok where Thor finally gets to understand everything that bothers Loki, and finds a way to comfort his brother in a very gentle, caring way, because that was what I understood Thor had finally learned: true compassion, the ability to understand, the motivation to go and make up for every time he was a shitty sibling in the past. I can't see that now, not anymore after watching this film, not after what Thor has been made into and how he treats Loki :(

I'm sorry this got so long. I'll disappear for a while now and see if I can manage to un-watch this movie. Thanks for reading/listening.

#nelioe

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