Nick Grinder is a Trombonist and composer living in NYC by way of the Bay Area. In this first installment of the blog I wanted to interview someone that I know well, I met Nick in my first year of college back in 2009, we were roommates for three out of four years of school and I’ve played with him more times than I can remember, he’s also one of my best friends and an important peer in the community. So I didn’t have to do much research to feel prepared for this interview.
Since moving to NYC, Nick has managed to maintain a busy schedule as a freelance trombonist and participate in an ever-growing list of ensembles, secure positions in Broadway orchestras, play in recording sessions. Most recently, he has started to get some notice for his own work: His most recent album, Farallon (in which I play guitar), has been very well received.
I wanted to get some insight into Nick’s professional development in the last few years as well as into his creative process.
JT: So Farallon has been well received, I know it was a lot of work for you over a few years to get it done. How does it feel now that you are on the other side and the outcome has been mostly positive?
NG: It feels good. I was really happy with how everyone interpreted the music, and the studio experience was really relaxed and natural. Just the sound Chris at Big Orange Sheep (studio in Brooklyn) got was really beautiful, and sort of was a perfect match for the music if that makes sense. In a way, it almost informed how we played over those two days, and I think vice versa. I didn’t go into the album as being a motive piece on The Farallon islands, it was really just a collection of tunes I had written over the years that made the cut, so to speak. It feels good to have moved on from that music, as I think it will free me up to write more in the present. I think if we don’t have markers, it’s hard to move on as an artist. I find myself writing the same tune over and over if I don’t record or perform enough to get it out of my system.
JT: That makes sense, so in that regard, how do you see Farallon in contrast to Ten Minutes (Nick’s first release)? Do you see it as an expansion on stuff you were working on back then or a departure from it?
NG: I think it’s....an evolution, and in a way, I think Farallon is much less compositionally complex, but a bit more cohesive. I thought back on Ten Minutes the other day, and how some of the tunes were actually pretty good, and more in the “jazz” idiom, whatever that means nowadays. Sometimes I feel that writing harmony can box in creativity in a way, partially because pianistic interpretations can harken back to so much other music. I feel harmonically, Ten Minutes was a bit more complex than Farallon, but Farallon is more open. Part of that was you, Juan, and the fact that the guitar is such a different instrument than piano and doesn’t dominate the texture as much. So, to answer your question...I think it’s an extension and evolution. For the next one, it would be nice to really change things up. We’ll see. I try not to have a directive like that when I create, or at least not listen to it so much. It can be a good spark to start writing, but once things flow, you have to follow that.
JT: Yeah that’s definitely true. I’m really envious of how pianists have this power of making everything sound fully orchestrated and just make so much color with harmony. But lately, I think that what I like about playing the guitar is sort of embracing that it won’t make everything sound as full as a piano but that in a lot of other ways it can kinda expand the scope of the music by just filling a variety of roles
NG: Yeah, I think it’s one of the real positives of guitar, and in a way, I’d imagine that while that is a bit more limiting, there’s probably more musical freedom in that. Kind of an interesting catch-22 maybe?
JT: Well your limitations are as much a part of what you end up making as your abilities, even if you play the piano.
I know you’ve always played the piano is this still the main way you write music? Can you tell me a bit about how that process works for you? I’ve played a lot of your tunes over the years but I’ve never actually seen how you compose.
NG: Right, I don’t mean anything I’ve said as a dig on piano or piano players - it’s just interesting as a concept as you said - too much freedom of choice can sometimes box one in.
I write music any way that works....at the piano, at the trombone, or just with paper or Sibelius. Usually, I try to write harmonically complex music at the piano, just to hear and expand on what I’m hearing in that way, but that can sometimes be limited by my piano playing, and tendencies my piano playing has. I wrote the tune Farallon completely at the piano, and actually think it works better without any horns. My ear isn’t fantastic, so usually what I write on paper ends up being rhythmic ideas that I sus out on the horn or the piano. Sometimes I sing ideas into my phone on the train. Writing with Sibelius can be nice because you can hear what you write immediately, but the danger of that is you start writing for the computer - what sounds good on a machine might not sound good with people and vice versa.
I’ve definitely thought that something I wrote with Sibelius was the hippest shit ever, and after hearing people play it I realized something was missing, and I think it was sort of a casualty of that process.
JT: I understand that completely. It can be very convenient but that’s totally a risk of it. How do you think your own compositions have impacted your playing? Do you see these two things as being related? Are you writing to maybe expand what you can play on the horn or your horn playing is evolving because of what you write?
NG: I’d like to think it’s both. One of the things about writing outside of your instrument is that you have to learn what you wrote, which was the case for 5 Steps and some of the other note-y heads I’ve written. Rarely do I do those on the trombone. That head specifically was really hard for me to learn and ended up being a great thing to practice. I definitely remember writing harmony that I felt comfortable with improvising over, but it’s something I don’t consciously do often because I don’t feel I have a ton of skills in that arena I can showcase. Farallon, for example, is really difficult to improvise on, at least for me. I really try to let the song do its thing when I’m writing it, and not impose my own will on it too much.
JT: That’s interesting, and it makes sense to me. One of the things that I love about the album is that it doesn’t seem like you wrote the music with the intent to “showcase” the trombone, or actually anyone else. That’s really mature and I don’t think you made a conscious effort to do that, am I wrong?
NG: Thanks. That wasn’t intentional, but that also might have something to do with my relative lack of skills like that on the instrument...
JT: Oh Come on (laughs) You do make a living playing the Trombone…
NG: Ha, but the skills needed for that are different than the virtuosic stuff so many people are doing!
JT: Ok so that makes me wonder, how are you structuring your instrumental practice? what are some of the things you are going after in your playing? I know that it must be a difficult balance to find with all the different things that you have to do
NG: I’m thinking really broadly about my sound and when I attack the note and how clear that is - lining up my best sound with an attack that is in time, and clear. I do a lot of work relating to that with a metronome and tuner, and kind of just start from square one every day. Breathing, buzzing, long tones, slurs, those all help with that “prime directive” I have about time and attack. There’s a lot of that sort of work needed with the trombone, at least I find that it helps. I am though, always trying to find ways to make that sort of maintenance musical - sometimes I start the day just improvising, really trying to feel what my chops require to be in a good place, to have that immediacy. Sometimes those are my best days on the horn.
I need about 45 minutes to an hour to feel good for the day, and if I’m getting a good session in, I can do about 3-4 hours before I really need a break. A lot of that is exercises, scales, and patterns with a metronome and drone, and then improvising. I’ll take a tune or a set of changes through a few different keys and tempos, then work on Rochut or Bach. By then it will be about 3 hours, especially considering that I do a lot of similar exercises on bass trombone as well.
JT: The trombone is an instrument (just like any brass) that without that sense of keeping up with a regime of calisthenics your sort of starting baseline for just being able to play kinda goes away no? I remember a while back we were hanging with a saxophone player friend of ours and he was talking about all this advanced stuff he was working on, and you saying "I'm just trying to play in time man!" haha. I guess where I'm going with this is that in a way to me there's something really great and beautiful about that challenge of being confronted with the basics constantly, but I wonder if that's exhausting or mentally taxing for you and you wanna be working on some other stuff?
NG: Yeah, it absolutely is humbling and can be frustrating at times. And I think it was playing in tune! But playing in tune and in time is so challenging. When I came to New York I realized how dialed in older more experienced people was with just the “basics,” and how particular that sort of thing can be. I had a recording session a few months ago with some heavy people, I had no business being there really, and it happened to start at 7 am on a Sunday! From the first notes, the band of 18 people was just locked in. There was no question as to where time and pitch was, and I thought I was sticking out like a sore thumb. This was very “easy” music, but to play it at such a high level was really challenging. That instance is sort of a micro chasm for my attitude towards practicing. I sometimes go too far with “basics” stuff and feel I should be pushing myself more, at times, but the bread and butter of what I do I feel lay with that stuff.
JT: I understand that and, as an observer, I think that your work ethic in that regard is precisely why you’ve been finding yourself in so-called “places you have no business being in” more and more. I think that people know that you will take those things seriously even if you think that in some ways you are falling short. After all, we all want the music to sound great but finding people who are gonna take your project seriously and work at it is as important as finding someone who can play the music.
NG: I totally agree with what you’ve said. I think there’s a lot of luck and knowing when to talk and when not to talk. The whole thing about “not being an asshole” is really prescient! I remember talking to a really great musician about finding the right band, and he said it was so much more about finding that fit and people who care about your music than things like fame, etc. The more comfortable you are the better the music will sound. That’s what was so nice about being in the studio with you guys - it was really comfortable and while we got a ton done, it didn’t feel taxing because it was so relaxed and efficient.
JT: Same here. I wanted to ask you how you are managing all the different things you have to do these days? On top of being a busy freelancer, you have a pretty steady schedule on Broadway now. (The Broadway show Nick was playing, “Beautiful,” has since closed.)
NG: I’m trying to figure it out, but mostly still flying by the seat of my pants. The show has finally given a bit of financial stability, which is almost unheard of for freelance musician types, so I’m trying to capitalize on that to have designated creative time. I have managed to write a bit more since I got the show, and I have also been taking days off just to go hear music, which was something I was always felt too burnt out to do. I still do everything I can to put creatively fulfilling gigs at the front and center, and I’m hoping that the show can actually help with that. If I can get through every day having practiced, and through each week doing some creative listening/writing, I’ll be in a good place. That’s the goal for now with a lot of room for expansion.
JT: What are some of your goals for this next phase after this album? I know that you have some new music for a quartet that played recently
NG: I actually had a gig with interesting instrumentation shortly after we recorded the album - violin, flute, and trombone with rhythm section. I want to write some music for that group, and really get some orchestrations happening that highlight the “softer” iterations of the trombone, especially with mutes. There are so many different colors and textures one can get with mutes and other instruments.
And yes, we had a gig with a new quartet. That was a lot of fun. I might want to add a piano to that at some point, I’ve been hearing that for my next thing.
JT: That's great and I look forward to hearing all those projects. I think we did it! Unless you wanna add anything. But, I just wanted to say that it has been really great to see you grow and thrive over the years cause at this point you are one of the very few people I have around that I really came up with, very proud and happy for you!
NG: Man, thank you! I hope you know you have been a huge driver of creativity for me and an enormously positive influence on my music-making ever since we met. I think you’ve been like that for most people you’ve known who are musicians! So thank you for that. I admire your commitment to your sound and how you are always creating. It really is inspiring.
There is one thing I’d like to add: The jazz world is very small, but even amongst its size, I worry we aren’t realizing how expensive it is to record and promote music, and how that can kind of skew who gets to make music and have it recognized. My relative success in the commercial field of music (and my willingness to accept massive amounts of credit card debt) really made the album a reality. So many truly amazing musicians and composers aren’t in that position, and their work really deserves to be heard.
Releasing music is a massive amount of sacrifice and work no matter how much money you have, but I think it would behoove the art form and especially the gatekeepers of “fame/recognition” to consider even those recordings not on a label, not with a “big name” sideman and not in CD form. It’s understandable that there’s a ton of music to wade through, but there are stories that deserve to be heard and promoted that under the current model fall by the wayside.
Ok, rant over. Thank you Juan!
JT: Yes!!! Amen and thank you. Love ya
You can learn more about Nick on his website: https://www.nickgrinder.com/
Both of Nick’s releases are available in his Bandcamp page: https://nickgrinder.bandcamp.com/
