#profic stuff

[pearlwheeler]

knew it was only a matter of time before people started calling ronald a p*do for being willing to engage with some slightly adult byler themes. can we not with the puritan shit please. these characters are being played by adults in s5 and will BE adults in the scene in question (the padlock necklace thing) so this shouldn’t even be controversial. leave my lawyer ALONE

[pearlwheeler]

in light of discord’s new censorship rules i just wanna remind everyone why i post relatively vanilla byler smut on the same ao3 account that i might engage with more controversial stuff (fictional incest etc). it’s because fascists see all of this as the same. we don’t have to like it, but we have to let people post the fictional stuff that they want, because the thing you like is next.

let’s put something in perspective: under discord’s new guidelines, if i wanted to talk about my byler fic in there, i could get in serious legal trouble. even if a sfw byler creator posts art of, say, byler making out or something in discord, they could get in serious legal trouble. this isn’t normal, it’s part of a global trend in which platforms are cowering from the right wing governments that want to erode free speech from queer people & women.

that said, you guys on here have been extremely respectful to me in this regard so im not worried, but if you find yourself wondering why you keep running into freaks like me in the spicy byler space, this is why! the right to spicy byler post and the right to post stuff that you find gross are one and the same. you don’t have to engage with it, but i appreciate being able to coexist while we continue the fight for free speech.

<3

[pearlwheeler]

hey, thanks for your response! i've thought long and hard about fiction vs. reality as well, but i think the issue goes deeper. you said:

well, this i understand bc that’s happened to me before. there’s certain topics i’m not into, that i’m squicked out by, so sometimes if a creator suddenly posts that stuff im like, woah! but the reason i don’t find myself then worrying they might be “someone you wouldn’t want to associate with in real life” is because i believe in a hard line between fiction and reality. to me, it doesn’t matter what someone posts/writes/creates as long as it’s rooted in fiction. when i see someone engaging with the topics i don’t like, i don’t worry that there is anything unhealthy or immoral about them. fiction has nothing to do with that. the only people i wouldn’t want to hang with irl are ones who perpetrate or condone harm to real people. as you said, dangerous people exist in fandom, and that is where my line is drawn.

Thanks for describing in honest detail your preference as well, but I'll have to agree to disagree with this stance, because I couldn't relate to the way you placed incest in a similar place on the scale to something like cheating or enemies to lovers! These things are not the same, much like saying brown and blue are not the same even though they're both colours.

For example, the duffers possibly exploring sexual abuse with young will does not mean they condone it. But the difference is, that the portrayal of CSA in stranger things is very different to the portrayal of the same topics you see in proship communities in this fandom. One is depiction, the other is romanticisation. People in pro-ship ARE getting off, emotionally if not physically, and this is clear through the way they write, their use of emoji or fandom slang, the celebratory/giggly mood of a blog, etc. Meanwhile the duffers are exploring an idea and expressing their true views on that through fiction - and its clear what their views are by who is portrayed as the villain in their story. But fandom then takes that villain and romanticises it.

These two things are not the same, and even though 'its just fiction', fiction holds truth: it's an expression of the beliefs, views and outlook of the writer, whether conscious or subconscious. Fiction is always a portrait of the writer who writes it, even if they don't intend it to be. To say 'it doesnt matter as its just fiction' doesnt ring true, because there IS truth in fiction. Not facts, but emotional truth, and the emotions we have when reading are akin to those we have to real life events that actually do happen. This is why we are able to love fictional characters as much as people we know in real life. Likewise, why shouldn't the mind feel genuine disgust at fictional topics just because they're fictional? The truth of them is still true, even if the specific details and 'facts' are fictional. If this wasn't the case, story itself wouldn't compel us as a form of art.

There seems to be a lot of emphasis in pro-ship communities on what we physically do in life being what matters most, when our emotional responses to things are actually what make us who we are. You can't police thoughts, but some thoughts are intrusive, while others are celebrated and taken further. Writing fiction IS a physical act and a choice. It's the creation of something, bringing it from the mind into the real world, and sharing it, too. It's no longer just a 'fictional thought', it becomes something the artist condones through the tone in which they express that idea.

Perhaps this simply comes down to different minds and what we personally consider disturbing or something that needs professional help, or how we each understand what fiction actually is. But my gut instinct whenever I encounter individuals pro-shippers is that there is an element of guilt there, as if they know it's wrong but can't help it or don't want to.

I won't continue this discussion any more, but I'm really grateful for your time and information. Thank you.

good morning anon!

yeah, it seems we just disagree fundamentally on the fiction vs reality topic, but i appreciate your curiosity nonetheless.

you don’t have to respond to this as i know you said you’re done with the discussion, but since this is going on my blog, i’m going to use my response to make my stance clear about some things:

our emotional responses to things do not make us who we are. emotions can come and go, and we can’t always control them. our character comes from our choices.

it’s not true that “the emotions we have when reading are akin to those we have to real life events that actually do happen.” for example, i feel wholly different emotions when reading incest fic versus what i feel when i hear about real life occurrences of incest. fictional incest is not real life incest, they are two different worlds. (i know anon and i disagree on this point)

an author’s tone does not indicate their real-life moral position on the subject matter. creators rarely state their tone outright, and instead we’re interpreting it, so it’s super subjective from the jump. i get what you mean though, so let’s take the duffers as an example. sure, they’re clear on that particular issue (the csa perpetrator = the villain) but don’t they also muddy the waters quite a bit?

“hey, my sister will be like your sister!” (kisses her)

karen comes close to hooking up with 17 year old billy, and the show never paints her attraction to him as wrong. in fact, based on several tonal choices such as music and costuming, i would say the audience was meant to root for her to meet up with billy. she decides against it because she has a family, but she’s never shown to be happy with ted either. she doesn’t get rewarded for making the “moral” choice.

even when it comes to vecna and the potential csa allegory, s4 starts to show the reasoning behind henry’s behavior, and the first shadow dives into this even deeper. would you say the duffers were wrong for giving him a backstory, lest they accidentally justify any of his actions or make the audience feel some empathy towards him? on top of that, he’s heavily paralleled with will, one of our heroes. was it wrong for the duffers to do that, knowing that vecna is an abuser (will’s abuser at that)? did they concern themselves with worrying whether the audience is going to sympathize with henry? or: did they just write the story they wanted because they trust us to know it’s all fiction?

finally: “getting off” does not imply condoning any more than any other type of engagement in fiction implies it. it’s morally neutral. it’s okay to feel excitement, lust, or emotional/physical release from something fictional. it doesn’t mean you condone or want it irl any more than watching these depictions in a movie does.

it’s interesting that you sense guilt from proship folks, because when i started engaging with “problematic” subjects, the creators gave me the exact opposite impression. exploring what i want in fiction has allowed me to make creative, personal growth, and mental health strides i never thought possible with the shame i used to hold onto wrt moral panic, ingrained purity culture, sex negativity and internalized homophobia/transphobia. relaxing my stance on the morality of fiction has improved my quality of life immensely, and there’s a lot less guilt in this community than any other fandom space i’ve been in.

🌊🌊🌊🌊🌊🌊🌊

[pearlwheeler]

why have you bookmarked an incest fic on ao3? hello anon! this is because i think anything is allowed to be explored in fiction since it’s not real <3 for example, you’ll notice that my most popular fic is about an underage character jacking off lmfao. however, i’ve clocked that you guys aren’t super interested in other taboo stuff over on this side so on here i mainly stick to nsfw byler, which is my fave anyways! you might see an incest fic posted to my ao3 one day, or something similarly taboo, and it’s totally fine to not be into that and not engage! please feel free to mute/block if needed. but i am pro-fiction and anti-censorship so i will never restrict myself or others when it comes to topics being explored in fiction.

I'm not the same anon but ive observed this topic in fandom for a longggg time and find it fascinating. so...

what i think people mean when they ask questions like 'why have you done this?' is 50% judgement on you, and 50% genuine interest in why you, personally, are interested in [taboo topic].

your response was the same as lots of pro-fiction people's responses: that you think anything goes. but that doesn't explain why you personally are interested in - in this case - incest. i mean, as a crude analogy: i'm legally allowed to stand on the roof of my building all day if i want to, but why would i want to?

so i think its a morbid curiosity from people who would are afraid of taboo topics like incest - and fair enough, it's probably not an uncommon response for someone to be revolted by that, and want to know why/how you aren't repulsed by it. and all that is packaged in a judgemental, badly-shaped box of a question haha.

of course you aren't obligated to answer why you're interested in it, but for me, i'm fascinated, because personally im not into incest. i liken these kinds of asks to how you might feel if, in real life, you discovered that your parents or friends were into incest. it might make you have a hard think about some things and reappraise who they were as people. i think people online are just trying to figure out who might be someone who is healthy and exploring things through fiction in a healthy way they can relate to, and those who are actually not very healthy individuals who celebrate things that the healthy mind would generally find upsetting - someone you wouldn't want to associate with in real life, not because you're in danger, but because we all have people who we instinctually know we don't want to be around. and ofc, its true that there will be people in fandom who ARE dangerous, too. but online, there's so little information to glean from each other outside what our interests are. so if people like your content, and suddenly you post something upsetting to them, of course its natural for them to suddenly be wary.

i hope this feels fair and genuine. and if you would be gracious enough, i'd be interested genuinely in what makes you interested in incest and your other taboo topics. thanks!

hi there anon! thank you for giving me the opportunity to sip on wine and explore my thoughts about fictional incest!!! truly my ideal friday night

sorry in advance for the long answer, you’ve caught me at a topic i’m passionate about :)

before i answer your primary question (why i’m interested in those things), i want to unpack another part of what you said! in your last long paragraph you mentioned why people might be concerned or have an emotional reaction when they see that a creator they like is into things they’re not comfortable with.

well, this i understand bc that’s happened to me before. there’s certain topics i’m not into, that i’m squicked out by, so sometimes if a creator suddenly posts that stuff im like, woah! but the reason i don’t find myself then worrying they might be “someone you wouldn’t want to associate with in real life” is because i believe in a hard line between fiction and reality.

to me, it doesn’t matter what someone posts/writes/creates as long as it’s rooted in fiction. when i see someone engaging with the topics i don’t like, i don’t worry that there is anything unhealthy or immoral about them. fiction has nothing to do with that. the only people i wouldn’t want to hang with irl are ones who perpetrate or condone harm to real people. as you said, dangerous people exist in fandom, and that is where my line is drawn.

so while i can totally empathize with someone seeing me write an incest fic and going “oh no thanks not a fan of this creator anymore,” i can’t relate to the aspect of worrying that someone might not be engaging with it in a healthy way, or worrying that they might be a bad person irl. because to me, as long as they’re not bringing it into real life, affecting real people, it’s healthy. (sure, there’s unhealthy ways to go about it as with any hobby or interest, like if you’re neglecting self care etc, but i don’t think taboo fiction is automatically at risk of being an unhealthy habit.)

now, why do i get fulfillment from exploring these topics?

well, let’s break down fictional ships vs irl relationships for a sec. we can take more intense things like incest off the table for a moment. have you ever shipped something where there was, for example, cheating going on? what about a boss and their subordinate? enemies to lovers? etc.

these are probably not situations you’d want to find yourself in irl. but your brain knows that shipping it isn’t the same thing as wanting it or being ok with it in real life.

i love when cheating is explored between fictional characters, but i’ve also been cheated on irl, and it sucked! yet, when i read fic about it, it feels good—anywhere from pleasurable to cathartic, depending on where my mind is at, how i feel about the characters, etc. it stimulates my mind, and inspires my drive to create. engaging with interesting fiction feels as though im charging my battery.

my favorite thing about exploring that stuff is the romance and eroticism. you already know from my blog that i’m a big smut enjoyer, i love romance and lovemaking and nasty sex between characters who love each other or have sexual tension. romance is a topic i’ve been passionate about for most of my life, it’s just something that deeply resonates with me and makes me wanna write into infinity.

as for the specifics of why i find fictional incest sexy, i always liked “forbidden” types of romance, so incest is one really good way to incorporate that flavor. i love seeing a character go “wtf i shouldn’t want this but…” i love when characters try not to give into their desires but then do it anyway. this doesn’t just go for sex, though—i enjoy the “romance” of incest as well. it’s super fun to think outside the box and allow characters to receive love from the “wrong” person. it’s also fun to break down existing family dynamics between characters and explore them in a way most media can’t.

so yeah, incest is just one example and there’s other topics in that same vein which i enjoy, but what they all have in common is they scratch the itch in my brain, and make me feel like im on fire, the same way you might feel if you found a really good fic of your favorite ship <3

[pearlwheeler]

i’ve never gotten hate before for engaging w taboo fiction topics such as incest, but if the first place i get it from is my ao3 page where i write 13 year old mike wheeler beating off that is just insanely funny to me. like pls