What do you think: what happens to the Valar after Arda breaks (or whatever it does, anyway it ends somehow)?
(Or should I say "what will happen"? But for fictional end-of-the-world present tense feels more natural to me. I'm not sure why.)
Both in the terms of "what Tolkien intended at various points of his career" and of "what makes the most sense with the Legendarium". With whatever version.
Let's ignore Morgoth (and Sauron etc), assume they've been dealt with in some way that works (if you prefer this including "Sauron is good now", ok, why not) and that no other Ainur got depressed because of it.
Whatever happened, we're discussing just the good guys now. Because it is a mess anyway so let's try to narrow it down for now. It's still a very difficult question, I think.
So, the Second Music. Where is it sung and is it material? (well as much as music is material anyway, but I think you know what I mean)
On one hand, the Music of the Ainur was clearly not material (because matter did not exist), and its being a music feels somewhat like an approximation. And took place (it's not a place but whatever) in the Timeless Halls.
On the other hand, Men are said to sing in the Second Music (and maybe the Elves too, unclear), so… will it be material? Or does this mean "the spirits of Men"? Will it be more of a literal music than the first one, or not? Where will it be sung?
(If we simply copy and paste a solution from outside the Legendarium, it still leaves a lot of questions, depending on how much do we copy)
(Also, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth is not an answer. It is a question (and no, I don't mean a "the answer is yes" question (though this too), but an open question. It's a discussion of two characters, not anyt sort of explanations, and it leaves more questions than it answers. but if you want to elaborate starting from this text, you're welcome.)
But yes, even with those disclaimers, "the Second Music immaterial; spirits; it reboots Arda into Arda Healed" seems like the most fitting solution. Especially if we ignore the whole "and then Feanor reboots the Trees" thing which… for me the important part of that is "Fefe gets over his issues", and that we can keep.
And generally, what do the Valar do afterwards?
On one hand, in Ainulindale chapter (or was it in Valaquenta? nvm) it seems like their being on Arda is temporary. On the other, with Arda Healed… It's still Arda, in a way.
So do the Valar still govern it (I need to remind myself that Manwë having a burnout is not canon), or… what? Do they live there, or in the Timeless Halls, or are they free to move between those (and somehow the Elves and Men don't get jealous about it).
And if the answer is "the Timeless Halls effectively get moved to Arda" – ok, this solves some questions, but why? why. All the other Ainur were not interested in material existence. Why would this be a thing? It seems quite out-of-the-blue and random.
I'd love to see your thoughts (plural "you", though I'm sure some will have more intense thoughts than others :) )
Hello! Do you have any Dagor Dagorath thoughts/headcanons?
Ooh, this is a fun ask! Thank you! :) Not exactly a theory about Dagor Dagorath, but afterwards... I think that Elves and Men, as well as Dwarves, Hobbits, and Ents and Huorns, will all participate in the Second Music. I have no way of proving that this is what Tolkien intended, I just want it to be true. The Silmarillion says:
‘Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World’s end...’
I think Tolkien probably intended for the Elves to be in the Second Music, he just didn’t say so. The end of the world has to be a mystery to the Elves, just as death is a mystery to mortal Men.
At least we know that Men are prophesied to participate in the Second Music. And if they are, then why not other creatures that can speak and sing? Dwarves, Hobbits, Ents and Huorns aren’t Children of Ilúvatar, but that doesn’t make them less important!
And I do have one piece of evidence that there’s precedent for trees participating in the Music:
‘Yet it was in the Song,’ said Yavanna. ‘For while thou wert in the heavens and with Ulmo built the clouds and poured out the rains, I lifted up the branches of great trees to receive them, and some sang to Ilúvatar amid the wind and the rain.’
@tolkienocweek day seven | freeform | rilyárë rátasilmë fëanáriel
“This is Rilyárë, daughter of Fëanáro,” Nerdanel declares, “but I name her Rátasilmë, daughter of Nerdanel, for she she surpasses any gem of shining white light—she is her father's greatest creation, and in time all Arda shall adore her.”
So i was thinking about the Second Music (as you do).
Because what's more fun than contemplate the end of the world, but the version with Elves.
Except [cut for the reason of being long]
Is it actually the end of the world? I mean sure, that's how it's written and usually read, but "end of the world" is quite a fuzzy definition [see: the phrase "end times"], and sure, Feanor breaking the Silmarils and other things are discrete events, but overall… it's not so simple.
You know how in music (classical music, in the wide sense) there's that thing called the coda. Basically, you get to the climax of the music (which by the way is generally: same chord as in the beginning but more epic) and then you rotate it around for more ooompf and het more epic, and this is it, but then you don't end yet, you add some music that's like a cooldown, a closure. Movies do it too. There's the big shootout or whatever and then 10-15 minutes of like an epilogue (or an hour if the movie is RotK, I am not getting distracted I am not getting distracted this is a normal movie title)
So, there's the ending and there's the ending-ending.
And as we know, the world is like music
But yes, it's not about when the music ends exactly, you say, it's about when the piece moves to another piece. But have you ever listened to a medley? How songs fade one into another in a medley… There is a transition point, of course there is a transition point, or at least a short transition period if you want to be really stubborn about definitions, but it's subtle. You need to listen carefully to notice. Overall it feels smooth.
And this is still too simple, because I'm talking as if it was just a set of speakers blasting some music, and not a tapestry where everyone hers different bits of the soundtrack, and yes, the music is there, but it's so multidimensional…
You know that feeling when you're watching a movie and not noticing the soundtrack, but it rises and rises and turns into a more recognizable theme but then you realize it's been playing this since some time? You know the feeling when you're watching a musical and people in the background sing very, very quietly so that at first you do not realize what they're singing, and when you realize they are already on "even the darkest night will end"?
Something like that.
You know the feeling when you're – ok I don't think this metaphor can work with a concert, sorry— when you're in a church and the singers are doing rehersals as they do (assume those are good singers ok? not scared kids with stuffed noses [I love them but they sing badly sorry]) and it's almost hard to tell when they start actually singing?
Something like that.
Time does funny things sometimes. Yes, it goes in one direction but also it's like a twirled helix, it's like… imagine you have a whimsical crocheted thing (not squares, but wild, chaotic patterns) and then you dye it to a gradient or something and then you look at the yarn linearly, as if it was unraveled. The spots of color seem quite chaotic.
Like every musical motive, it kind-of starts many times, but only starts once, but then kind-of-starts again and again until it reaches it's fullness.
Something like that.
And… I really try not to vaguepost and this is not meant as vaguepost or criticism! Just as an example of something many people think and say, all the fandom and Tolkien himself maybe. So I saw a post with the words "…and after the Second Music…"
Is there an after? I wouldn't be so sure.
Time does funny things at the end, I suppose.
One of the sad things about music is that it ends, that the awesome moment at the peak cannot last. And I don't think this will be an issue anymore.
So… has the Second Singing already begun? Will it begin when the world ends? Are we doing a rehersal? Or something entirely different?
IDK, probably yes. Some questions don't have clear answers.
And yes, I am thinking about real things in the language of Silmarillion, but I don't think this in particular is a problem. Also also music is a great image to help me thing about how time works, and Divine Providence and all that complicated... music and reading "consolation of Philosophy"
Also the more I think about it (and I reread TWHF), the more I think that there is a way for the "ME as our mythic past" concept to make sense, but we need to risk being weird about it to make it make sense. Like… (fuzzy bunch of ideas incoming because I can't verbalize it well, or even grasp it well)
time does something weird, it kind of… Valinor and all that stuff splits apart and goes its separate way until it merges bach at the end-end… a bit like themes in the sonata form, you have one, than it goes off and you have another and then they meet
there is a… weirdness… discontinuity? or almost discontinuity. Read the climax scene of "Till we have faces" (I mena, read the whole book first if you haven't), it shows this well. OK, not "shows" just "gestures in the general direction + Fox explains it somewhat"
If we don't dare to be weird and Jungian and difficult and problematic-according-to-some (and to our overgrown internal censors) we can't make it work and it's not even worth trying
There's that feeling when you read a book and it has a plot twist (but good) or even better, a whatever-to-call-what-TWHF-has and you reread it and it reads very very differently now. There is that feeling when sometimes (in really good moments) you look back on your life and now it makes sense. That feeling when you listen to the reprise version of a song and now you can't hear the first version without the second echoing in your head.
When all just clicks in place and now it's always been there, but not in an invalidating way.*
So, Second Music. I don't think it's the difference in music, I don't think it's like when you hear a song played badly and then you hear it played well. (Sorry, Pengolodh. "will be played aright" is a natural way of phrasing it and makes sense, but also is misleading)
I think it's more like recontextualization. Not "will be played right" but "have been always right/will be made right". *
Not like when you hear a note played wrong and then it's fixed on the repeat. More like when you head an off-key note but then it's resolved and it starts making sense. Like… the intellectual analogue of it is when you're reading a book and there's an off detail and you think it's a mistake but later it turns out it was a clue. The emotional analogue… Reframing, the psychology calls it.
But this is more. Not a change in cognition or emotion, a change in reality and deeper, a change in meaning.
Changing the past, TWHF calls it.
But not in an invalidating way, quite the contrary.
And yet there are questions, so many questions.
The "always make me sad" kinds of question*, for example, even if we disregard the Silm– especially when we disregard the Silm— but they're way easier to rotate in my head within the Silm framework. TBH if there is something I would regret not having finished if I died soon (except the obvious relationship stuff… we never love enough) it would be my WIP fic. I don't care if this sounds cringe. But also there's probably a lot I need to do with my mind before I can do it. If. Maybe there are more useful (for otehrs too) ways of processing my emotions. IDK.
Anyway yes, there are many questions. I probably should reread TWHF some more sometime. Maybe it'll help. And also read some other stuff.
*Also, just in case: No, I am not stating anything controversial [like: I am not stating that Hell does not exist. This in particular. Oh, wow, look, I managed to make myself clear once! yay.] in here. I am just very very likely bad at understanding some parts. But also— between what my reason cannot accept, and what my feelings cannot accept, there must be some secret third option. Which very well may not be some secret to people with a different psychological setup. IDK.
Another beautiful day in München! I saw the north side of the city near (one of a few, I think) the university district and I did some record shopping. If I haven’t talked about records and traveling, allow to explain. If I have, sorry if I sound like a broken record (see what I did there?).
I like vinyl records. I love to travel. And also, it so happens I have a jukebox (well, sorta. I mean I have a jukebox, but it has spent 4 of the last 5 years in a repair shop with one of two men in Oregon who know how to work on these things. And I gotta be honest, this dude looks like he’s gonna croak any day now, which may explain why it’s taking him so damn long. He’s always saying that some part didn’t come in). And I also happen to love music, and even wrote my thesis on vinyl records! Don’t believe? A clever Google search will yield my now-published paper.
Anywho, one of the interesting things about vinyl records is that while they petered out in the late 80s/early 90s for the US, they stayed a bit longer in the rest of the world (just a few years, but it makes a difference). And if you love 90s music like I do, it can be difficult in the US to find on vinyl, but much easier in Europe! In addition, there are bands that simply made a bigger impact in Europe even if they were from the US, and so there is cool stuff to be found if you know where to look.
Add to this the fact that 7” records (singles, AKA 45s - the 7” is the size, the 45 is the RPM it is played at) are not as popular as they once were, despite the rise in 12” / LP / full length records. Due to these facts, many record store cull their LPs carefully, but tend to just throw all their 7” records in a bin and say “Fuck it, sell ‘em for a Euro a piece.” (in whatever language they are speaking, of course.) There is still some demand for these records by the larger community, such as Discogs, the vinyl site I sell on, but these folks are in different countries, or perhaps do not have the patience to comb through stacks and stacks of records.
But I do. And that’s where I find treasures.
Talk to any record hunter, and they’ll tell you about the high you get when you find that white whale/unicorn/rare/expensive record, which is similar to that endorphin rush you get for the same reason when you’re at a garage sale or Goodwill and you find that thing that someone clearly didn’t know what it was worth. Or if you rob a bank. Or stab a man. Shit I don’t know, I just know it feels good.
Depending on the European city there can be a few or a lot of record stores. And I look for a certain kind - the stores who have been around for while, sell used records, and don’t particularly cull them well (at least the 7”). The record store in the main square is unlikely to be what I’m looking for - they tend to curate their collections, and go for a certain vibe, and sell to the tourists or unknowing city folk. Their rent is probably higher too, so there’s more of a markup. But they take the time with their records and I can appreciate that. But the ones I go for are back in the neighborhoods; someplace that doesn’t open until 3 PM and is only around 4-5 days a week, because it’s just the owner who works there, and knows their collection. This is nice because I can go through real neighborhoods to hunt these stores down - I’d like to think I gain a better understanding of the city culture. Also usually, these are stores with an owner that really likes talking music! I have met some really great record store owners - music transcends language and local culture.
Of course there’s never an upside without a downside - records are heavy, and when you’re lugging them from city to city in your backpack, it can be exhausting. Not to mention when I fly, and I have to hope they don’t choose to weigh my bag - because yeah, that fucker’s wayyy overweight.
But I digress. I went to one such record store here in Munich, titled Second Music & Fun. The owner was there, and she told me that if I bought enough singles, I’d get them for a Euro each. She was incredibly nice, and at one point I watched someone who was looking for a specific CD ask her, and she immediately knew where it was in her very crowded shop. I went to work crate digging and after a bit needed to use a restroom, so I asked her where one was. (Restrooms are tough to find in Europe - but that’s a rant for another day.) She told me there was a cafe next door, and I went in and ordered a coffee and went to the restroom, and when I came back, the barista told me the owner had come and grabbed it and took care of the bill for me! I assume they had some barter agreement, but still!
I left with a small haul of records, and after a quick change where I had to suddenly move to a hostel, I went out looking for some grub - I hadn’t had a decent meal in days! But this city shuts down at 9-10, and I was struggling until I hit up a bar called Axel F. And I had to wonder: why the name? Were they fans of the film? The song? Or way worse, this simply awful European cover? (Go ahead and click on it - I dare you!) I tried my first-ever in-Germany schnitzel, and holy schnitz it was good. I tried to take a picture, but the lighting in the bar was red, but crap, I don’t have another picture for this entry, so:
They had a thing called “spoon fries,” which I had never heard of, and when I looked them up, found that Heinz Ketchup recently released such a thing as well in order to make you eat more ketchup. And it works. The fries are shaped in a V, and you can really get that sauce up in there. (FWIW, I made a fry sauce with the ketchup and mayo in front of me.) As I was leaving they asked me to write them a review on Trip Advisor, so maybe the restaurant is new? Or maybe they just know that likes online means more folks showing up in what is on the edge of town.
Fully fed, I crashed out for the night. More travel tomorrow!
