#spnwin thots

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....well this is a face

a familiar face.

a facey face that smells

facey.

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Another another for the ‘Jack... did you have something to do with this?’ theory pile

Where’s the samulet that was dangling from the rearview mirror in the pilot? I’d chalk it up to ‘whoops we forgot’ but also, that thing was a god tracker. Or, god indicator at least in the end. We saw the fake one hung up on the mirror in season 10 with Fan Fiction [also a Robbie episode where Chuck shows up again for the first time in 5 years]

And then it was used again to indicate Chuck’s return in season 11 [also a Robbie episode]

And it was in the Pilot for The Winchesters

but now, when baby-lorean shows up for Mary and Company TM she doesn’t seem to have it. 

and then when Dean shows up with baby-lorean again, it doesn’t appear to be there. But Jack and Bobby show up. 

Idk. I’m... sticking a pin in this! 

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Thoughts on the SPNWIN Finale

Okay so I’m gonna divide this into two parts: Implications for the future of where this show will go, and then implications for a potential continuation. 

**This is me writing after only seeing the episode once and then popping through here and there to try and remember things, but I may mis-remember or misinterpret but I wanna get these first thoughts out of the way!**

First off, just to quickly summarize my thoughts at the top: I really loved it. 

They had a hard hand dealt with this show, which is, only 13 episodes and no promise of a season 2. Because of that, they had to write it in a way that both closed this season but kept the door cracked open for more season. It’s a very very hard balance to do, but I think they still did it. 

To me, I have a lot of questions, but I LIKE having questions because that draws me back for season 2. And, if done properly, it can also lure people into the continuation. 

Implications for the future of SPNWIN

This episode was a whirlwind so I apologize if I mis-remember anything! 

I think the key thing that I took away from this in terms of future potential was the journal. They have Dean’s journal in the sense that Dean and Sam had John’s journal. 

John and Mary take off in the end but I have no doubt in my mind Lata, Carlos, and Ada will all come back and play a part some how as well. 

Which, by the way, the fact that this Carlos was THEE Carlos that was referenced in a Robbie episode a million years ago is so amazing, idk why. Robbie you madman! 

But, now we more or less have the confirmation that this isn’t truly our world, however we are going to be sticking with these characters in the future. Therefore, I don’t know if that means they’ll be universe hopping too, I don’t know if it means they’ll uncover more mysteries from Dean’s journal? I think that’s likely. I also think that will be fun. 

I also ALSO think that will provide more world building for the continuation, like this season already did. 

There is the obvious issue in the room of that being there were only 13 episodes and this may have felt more like a mid-season finale rather than a finale, however not being promised a season 2 has had to have been thee most annoying thing to write around. 

But, for a first season, it set up some solid base foundation work for them to continue to explore more stories while also not screwing around with canon. 

There are still questions I want answered and who knows when or if they’ll ever be answered. The biggest one, however, is what on earth is in that journal?

I have more questions but I need to rewatch the show to form them so they’ll be in a follow up post most likely. 

Another question I have is: Was that really Dean from start to finish? The hair is the biggest thing for me bc J finished filming Big Sky and there was no reason not to cut it, or use a wig of some kind [lol]. But also in general it felt different a little bit. Like it’s still him but also it didn’t feel like him from the pilot and from the photos we were seeing. But it really may well be him all along! I imagine that’s part of the mystery. 

I don’t think we’ll see him again, or if we do, it’s not going to be the same version. I think he served as a launching point. Several friends have made this point already but basically he laid the foundation for all this multi-verse stuff and now the kiddos are on their own and there’s a lottttt to explore. 

Again, I have to rewatch in order to fully form my thoughts on the future for the show. 

My question is gonna be basically are they going to explore different universes? And, how, if Chuck kinda offed all of them? But I’m okay with my questions for now because I like to go with the flow of the show. I don’t want to figure everything out right now. 

Implications for a SPN Continuation

I’ll talk about this first since I have some frens who were disappointed that 1) Cas wasn’t with Jack and Bobby and 2) Cas wasn’t mentioned. 

If you’re new around here, then I’ll cut to the chase now: I am a full on “Cas Is Not In Heaven” believer. There are several reasons why. I am also a “Chuck Won” and “Jack is Chuck” believer. Also several reasons why. 

I don’t believe Cas is in Heaven because they never showed him getting there. “Well Jack got him out of The Empty,” is one of those things that I’ll believe it when I see it, because otherwise, it’s too shady for me. Cas was last taken, alive, to an Empty where everything else was awake and alive and taken on behalf of a deal, not because he died. The Empty has wanted Cas for a while, and has been pissed that he’s gotten out. Cas is a PRIZE for The Empty so I don’t really see it giving up Cas any time soon for any particular reason. 

Especially if that reason is Jack. 

I don’t believe The Empty likes Jack either, especially after their last interaction being so bad (Jack exploding in The Empty, waking everything up). I don’t feel like The Empty is willing to do any favors for him. 

God isn’t supposed to be able to influence The Empty but I think, since Lilith and Lucifer were brought down, that Chuck and The Empty had an arrangement. And from 15x18 to 15x20 I had literally no reason to believe that Cas, a threat to Chuck, would have been let go for any reason, even if Jack was “God” now. 

It would have been sloppy story telling, in my opinon, if they tried to explain how Cas got into Heaven in such a short amount of time, and would have extremely taken away from the emotional magnitude of 15x18. 

And that’s how I felt with 1x13 of The Winchesters. 

If we had seen Cas I would have been upset, I think. Because again, there’s no explanation for him being there. If it wasn’t going to be a *wink wink nudge nudge* thing like “We’ll explain it in the continuation” then I didn’t want it. 

The reason why I feel so passionate about this is beacuse of the Chuck Won theory. And because of that theory, and how Cas’ role evolved over time in Supernatural, I don’t believe Chuck can “recreate” Cas. Because Cas exists outside of Chuck’s narrative, and isn’t beholdened to Chuck, that means Chuck can’t reproduce Cas. It’s just never going to happen. 

And I feel strongly about Chuck not being able to do that SPECIFICALLY because when all is said and done, I don’t EVER want Dean to look at Cas and wonder if he’s real or not (throwback to 15x02 anyone?). 

Therefore, I did not want to see Cas in The Winchesters except for very very very specific ways that I knew deep down wouldn’t happen because this isn’t the show for that. 

And I’m sorry I wish I could go along with the Cas in Heaven memes because they do make me laugh — but also the thought of him being there with no explanation and still not showing up makes me more sad than not. 

And that’s another thing—

With 15x20, and no Cas, there had been conspiracy after conspiracy for the last two and a half years as to why, everywhere between network censorship to Misha secretly filming and then them not showing anything. I’m personally more inclined to believe a mixture of: Censorship (Dean can’t reciprocate so what’s the point) and a deliberate choice on behalf of Dabb. But that’s for a different post because this is already very very long. 

But, him not being in the finale — while it fed into the Chuck Won theory — it also didn’t have enough stability to truly land on one theory or another because COVID restrictions were also blamed (in whatever manner people saw fit to blame it). 

However, NOW — with Cas NOT showing up next to Jack and Bobby — even tho in 15x20 Bobby said that Cas helped Jack — was very LOUD to me. 

So what does that imply, to me?

1) No Cas until they have the time and space to put the story and emotions into it that it deserves. AKA — since I’m a Cas Is In The Empty believer — A rescue, by Dean. Even Jackles at JIB11 said that he’d want to explore that. Both of them have expressed an interest in exploring a follow up to 15x18. They can’t do that in the season finale of a spin off show that hadn’t mentioned them virtually at all (apart from parallels) all season. 

2) No Cas because Cas isn’t there. I’ll get into my “Jack isn’t Jack” thing in a second, but because there was also this choice not to have Cas there — once is a mistake, but twice? Now it’s starting something. Especially since this time, they DID have Jack there. It’s like they’re showing us a Cas-shaped puzzle piece missing. The piece may be missing but you can clearly see the hole and know what’s supposed to be there (kinda like Dean’s reciprocation!).

To me these are interesting storytelling tactics. And that’s what this is, storytelling. 

I feel like maybe we lost the plot a little bit, we being The Fandom, in terms of long-term storytelling efforts. 

Cas being in The Empty still really does open up a TON of plot ideas for a continuation. Is it sad he’s not with Dean right now? Absolutely. But I’d rather have them apart than have a flimsy, unexplained reunion just to have a reunion. 

“They didn’t even mention Cas,” and yeah, maybe they could have, but as friends in Discord servers have pointed out, that also locks them into a story that they may not be able to tell so it’s better to keep it like how it was in 15x20 where Dean never spoke his name. That is, it adds to the uncanny valley of it all. 

Jack isn’t Jack 

Look at this lovely post. This reminds me of the first time I was ever exposed to Chuck Won, Chuck is Jack theory way back in ... I want to say December 2020. Someone had compared Jack’s clothes to Chuck’s, and here we are again. 

Also these tags from @clarkenting​

Jack didn’t feel like Jack. He hasn’t felt like Jack since 15x19. 

I already freak out and ramble a lot about Chuck Won when it comes to Becky’s Notes in 15x04 about “no one even mentions Cas” and the line about rock music and the like. But another note she made was regarding the villain’s monologue at the end and how it kinda sucked. Jack had a monologue at the end. Jenny, in 15x20, said 8 words. 

So Jack post-15x19 has always been suspicious to me! And last night was no different, especially since it’s the most Chuck Like he’s looked. 

Also, another thing that got me, was the reference to Carry On (the Kansas song). It felt super duper pointed and not just an Easter Egg but like — hey this IMMEDIATELY reminds me of 15x20 and how Dean was like, weirdly, “I love this song!” a little too out of character in heaven as he began to drive off. 

Dean’s favorite band isn’t Kansas, it’s Led Zeppelin. 

Also, the reference felt like a fourth wall break, something that Chuck would do. 

So no, I don’t believe that Jack was Jack last night. I’m sure if I go through the dialogue, which I plan to do lol, I’ll find even more reason to believe that. 

Another thing that confused me was Bobby being there. Dean drove off, alone, and was continuously shown alone, throughout his drive. But BOBBY was there last night? Confused I am. But in the good way. 

We know now that Baby can hope planes of existence so I really really hope she can hop into The Empty. 

I’m someone who believes that Dean’s “Heaven” is in reality just The Empty. Or, as sometimes my friends will hear me call it, Chuck’s toy shelf. I am also someone who believes we DID see Chuck in 1x08 as part of the band and it wasn’t just a Rob cameo. Rob’s character has too much implication to just casually toss him in as a background character. 

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This is super duper long, and I apologize but also not really! 

Some final thoughts (for now) (any follow up posts I make also will be under #spnwin thots):

I think this finale set up things for both a season 2 AND a continuation. I’ve been a contination believer since literally the SPN finale finished airing. At first it was a way to cope, but then it became a full blown belief for me the more and more first Jackles talked about it, and then the rest of the cast. 

I’m really excited for season 2 of The Winchesters should it happen. I really hope it does. I personally believe it has a high chance of migrating to HBO Max for a home — and if that’s the case that’ll be awesome bc I also believe that’s where a continuation will go. 

All of our favorites of the season will be in season 2 as well. We will see Carlos, Lata, Ada, Millie, Betty, Tony, etc. back. There are still questions about their characters too that we need answering. I’m still suspicious of Betty! 

I liked that they contained this just enough for the finale just in case they don’t get a season 2, but still left dangling plot threads to catch for a season 2 (which felt very season 15 of SPN to me. In my eyes, they really did leave some things dangling for a continuation.)

What kind of potential world building will we get now that we know space and time is but an illusion, lol. I like the prequel being used to expand worlds more and expand the canon more, especially when it comes to hopping planes of existence. 

Is The Empty really the big villain, or Chuck? I personally think so, and I personally think that this will help funnel some stuff into a continuation. 

“What about Destiel” yes what about Destiel? That’s a continuation problem but one that I know Jackles and Dee and whoever else will be involved will ultimately tackle as well. I may have more faith and optimism than others, but that’s because I know from past experiences from SPN that I won’t be burned no matter what happens — so if you need me to clown for you, I can! 

What about the Akrida? Do they just stop at this place? Why this particular storyline? What’s going on? We already have alternates to our own timeline that is the Akrida did not finish off our Men of Letters, Baby got into John’s hands via a car dealership (well, according to Chuck anyway), John didn’t know about hunting in our world, etc etc. 

So what else is different? Will they see OUR world? Who is dead, who is alive? Is Chuck gonna send them to other places too?

Only time will tell I guess! 

Time to light those manifestation candles for season 2 and a continuation! 

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this is another reason why i don’t think Jack is Jack TM and that i am still on my Chuck Won bullshit 

This lovely gifset. 

another major part of the Chuck Won theory for me is that Cas specifically was used as a barometer of truth in season 15. 

Because he’s the only one who can really exist outside of the narrative, and virtually untouchable in that case, when he was around it was easier to discern the truth about things and served as what was “Real.” Remember the line from 15x02 in that room where he’s trying to talk Dean out of that existential crisis he’s having, about what’s real, and that they are. 

In one of those ‘real’ instances, is when Cas can tell that Jack is Jack. 

There were three times in season 15 where Cas was needed to confirm if Jack was Jack. 

15x01, he confirmed it was not Jack but in fact a Demon possessing Jack’s body. 

15x11, he confirmed it was Jack after he came back from The Empty. 

15x19.... he wasn’t there to determine that Jack was still Jack after he absorbed Chuck’s powers. 

And I found that significant. 

In my head there is a conspiracy that Chuck and The Empty were working together at this. And part of that is this game of chess that Chuck set up where he wipes out the pieces on the board that pose a threat to him:

Dean, Sam, Billie, Jack, Amara, and Cas. 

Have The Empty make a deal with Billie, a fake deal, to get Jack ready to contain Chuck when in actuality it was to make it so Jack could become a vessel for Chuck bc he’s the only one who could do that. 

Billie and Dean already had an antagonistic relationship so it wouldn’t take much poking and prodding to get Billie to go after Dean in her attempt to stablize things, losing herself a little bit in the process. 

By having her go after Dean, Chuck can trigger Cas’ deal with The Empty. 

And if Cas is off the board, then so is the ONLY litmus test to truly know if Jack is Jack or not. 

And so by also not having Cas in 1x13 of The Winchesters, you can’t tell if that Jack is really OUR Jack or if it’s... Chuck. 

And given the reference to that Kansas song, and these looks, idk — feels like it really isn’t OUR Jack and is in fact a continuation of ‘Is Chuck possessing Jack?’ 

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Okay Chuck won theory

That means Amara and Jack are still in him right???

Here's what pisses me off about Amara' story

She was happy, she liked her life, she was doing fuck all and LOVING IT

Why in the FUCK did she give up all that in the end??? Why is she "gone" inside Jack?

If that's Chuck inside Jack then Amara knows and she's gonna fight her way out THIS IS MY TRUTH

yes! also sorry for the late response i always ALWAYS forget to circle back on my messages but yes!

and i agree that it seemed to be a little TOO easy to get Amara [in the perspective of Chuck] and Jack would, I hope, still be there. If not, then Jack is most likely in The Empty.

Regardless, the thing walking and talking looking like Jack is not Jack. To me there's just too much evidence pointing to that, and with 15x20 it was kinda easy to also go "well, maybe COVID some how—" but naw fam they put him in The Winchesters and it was WEIRD but like in a good way. And one of those weird things is that if that was Jack, would he not try and find a way to get Amara back out?

And yes it is my UTMOST DESIRE that she would fight her way back out! Idk how, I know it was like, Chuck absorbed her? Eew, but you get what I'm saying — however it is my UTMOST DESIRE for her to like, somehow fight back and fight her way out.

It's all I want lol.