#support discourse

[thelogicofikeandsoren]

When did Soren realize he loved Ike?

I believe with near certainty that Soren did fall in love with Ike almost immediately. However, there is an argument that he might not have realized he did right away, so what are some moments he may have noticed?

There are a few moments that make sense to me:

Before the game even started, during the backstory. This is a very plausible option, considering he searched for years for a person he met once. He has had a lot of time to ruminate that we just never see.

During the Path of Radiance A Support, specifically after Ike reassures him he's fine the way he is. If Soren didn't know before, there's a very good chance he does now, and not just because of the line they censored in the localization, but also because he cuts himself off and then immediately starts giving Ike even more information about himself that wasn't asked about. This also provides the catalyst for Soren to admit to Ike that he only wants to be with him (at least platonically).

I find it highly unlikely that he doesn't know at least by Radiant Dawn, given his blatant wedding vow A support line, his defensive non-denial to Micaiah's "accusation", and his dramatic response to Ike being about to compliment Aimee. Not to mention the line "my only wish was to see you again" which definitely made Ike realize the depths of his feelings, if he didn't earlier.

What I do believe is that he would have a very hard time believing that Ike loves him back, even after Ike realizes he does, and you can sort of see that in the last scene, where Soren's first assumption is that Ike is only trying to hug him out of pity and not because he loves him. And of course, at least before the Path of Radiance A Support, Soren is convinced that this relationship is more precarious than it is. That might also explain why he doesn't want other people to know about his feelings, or try to advance the relationship at any point on his own*, because that could lead to him losing the relationship he already has, which is still more than he could have hoped for.

*In fact, during one of his bond conversations with Alcryst in Engage, he states "If you expect a refusal, don't ask". Now, granted, Engage was written long after Radiant Dawn, so this may not be entirely accurate, but it does seem consistent with what else we know.

[thelogicofikeandsoren]

Ike and Soren’s supports in Radiant Dawn are weird because the writers gave Soren special lines but not Ike. So in them, A support especially, Ike does actually look oblivious to love.

Also, I find it hilarious that they took the time to explicitly program “Yes, Ike” as a unique reply.

[thelogicofikeandsoren]

Because of the way I spliced the A support posts, there’s something I didn’t get a chance to mention.

Soren’s abrupt transition from “I thought you…” to “It was Gallia” can be explained as “He still likes me despite my horrible secret… time to tell him how I really feel!” Though in the localized version (if we ignore the dub-induced plot hole) it sounds like he chickened out at the last second.

[thelogicofikeandsoren]

Three-way C support comparison

I’m breaking from complete chronological order to talk about the C supports between Ike and Soren, Ike and Ranulf, and Ike and Elincia.

Okay, first, we’ll note that Soren’s A support becomes available before either of the other two are recruited, meaning that Soren actually has a bigger head start with Ike than Ike does with Soren.  Anyway, onto the content.

Ike and Soren’s C support, as I’ve discussed previously, contains some pretty damning evidence that Soren sees Ike as more than a friend (first “why do you know that?” question) as well as some more subdued evidence that Ike reciprocates (not objecting to the moment in question, and later complimenting a perceived flaw).

Ike and Ranulf’s C support does not contain anything nearly as telling, though it does contain this comment:

“Well, that’s just my style.  I don’t have to be like someone else, do I?”

Which kind of indicates to me we are not meant to assume Ike is part of the majority.

As well as a series of jokes between the two that indicates at least a strong friendship on Ike’s part, even if Ranulf would do it for anyone.  Highlight here:

As for Ike and Elincia’s C support.  It was 100 percent business.  Nothing even remotely hinting at a romance or even a strong friendship.  Ike didn’t even smile the entire time.

Okay, I know that support paths have a gradient weight to their impact on relationships, but Soren didn’t just take gold in the first leg, he was able to run laps after winning before silver even got there.  And despite being the most predicted romantic option for Ike pre-RD, I’m not even sure Elincia did get bronze.

[thelogicofikeandsoren]

I am quite frustrated that a dub-induced plot hole made it into the frigging climax of my A support of choice.  I don’t actually mind too terribly that they changed “special” to “friend” here because I really don’t think it seems out of character for Soren to downplay his feelings, especially if Ike had just done the exact same thing a minute ago, and regardless it’s obvious that he’s more open about it in Radiant Dawn so it’s not like it makes or breaks anything.  But I really wish that they hadn’t added that line about Greil.  Not only is it untrue, but it also ruins a perfect moment and sticks out like a sore thumb, considering Soren never shows loyalty to Greil the same way the brothers or Titania do, but always directly to Ike. That said, otherwise, this is a perfect moment, because now we understand why Soren cares so much for Ike and it also makes it clear that Ike has cared for Soren for a very, very long time. First guy wins.

[thelogicofikeandsoren]

Now this is pretty significant because Soren is giving Ike extra opportunities to reject him, because he just cannot believe that it’s as simple as that.  Ike is accepting him despite being this horrible creature?  And Ike responds to the attempts with “what’s the problem?” and “You’re still you.” Ike calls Soren his friend for the first and last time, and I do want to point out that there is a difference between saying someone is “a friend” and saying someone is “just a friend”. Saying someone is a friend is a straightforward comment about their current relationship status and has no bearing on whether or not there is potential for it to turn into something more (although I will point out that I know a significant number of heterosexual fictional couples who actually do say they are “just friends” and then become a couple later).  Also, it’s not uncommon for people in couples refer to their other half as their best friend, and it is not mutually exclusive. (Plus, uh, Sothe and Micaiah claim to be platonic far more often and closer to the duology’s end). You can almost feel the weight being lifted off of Soren’s shoulders in that last panel because Ike kept his promise.  And now Soren doesn’t give any loud rants ever again, except when Titania prevents him from following Ike into a life/death situation.  Arc resolved.

[thelogicofikeandsoren]

Ike is being as sweet and gentle as possible here, while still firmly standing his ground.  He knows Soren’s not ever going to try to tell anyone but him.  He’s extremely concerned for Soren’s mental health, and wants nothing more than to make him feel better. And when Soren hesitates, clearly not wanting to say a thing, Ike preemptively reassures him that he’s not going anywhere.  Soren doesn’t seem to believe him, but still manages to work through his fear and confess after overcoming this initial tearful barrier. Soren seems to be trying and failing not to cry here.  He might not want to show this vulnerable side to Ike but he can’t control it around him at all.  In Radiant Dawn, the same thing happens but by that point it’s clear that Ike will not think any less of him for bursting into tears.

[thelogicofikeandsoren]

I have to split this between two posts.  I have to.  There were twelve screens I just couldn’t leave out just with Ike trying to get Soren to reveal his secrets.  Ike has been thinking a lot about what Soren said “the other day” (more like last autumn but whatever, timeline mixups are the most innocuous of plot holes… that just makes it worse, doesn’t it?).  He gives Soren words of encouragement and then insists that Soren tell him.  Soren reacts defensively, and then it looks like he’s about to cry (or already weeping but not making noise yet? Not entirely clear, though the latter reading seems consistent with the info scene where Ike tells Soren not to cry before any crying sounds appear).  And then there’s… that line. Wow.  Hold your horses, Juliet. You guys.  Stop being adorable.  Right now.  Actually don’t, I love it.