The Logic of Ike and Soren

[thelogicofikeandsoren]

Tomodachi Life Drama Updates

Here's the Tellius drama that has happened so far on Tomodachi Life Living the Dream. So far, Ike and Soren are my only Tellius Miis.

Soren quickly became friends with my avatar and another favorite character of mine, PJ.

Ike fell in love with Soren immediately after being made... and then fell out of love with him almost immediately.

They became friends, then Soren fell in love with Ike and asked him out

They dated for a while, then Ike broke up with Soren. Soren was so sad I couldn't even interact with him for a day :(

They're back to being friends again now

Ike got a crush on Clawhauser (tbh the other way around would make more sense) and tried to ask him out. But Bunsen interrupted and stole him away, causing Ike to be heartbroken again

Sidenote, Sally has been crushing on Bunsen for weeks and still is, even though he's taken now

[thelogicofikeandsoren]

Headcanon: Ike hates it when people call him the Radiant Hero, so Soren stops others he hears from doing so. However, he personally believes it's extremely apt, and sometimes calls him "my Radiant Hero" to express his true feelings while also teasing him a little. Ike usually doesn't mind it in this context, but sometimes pretends to.

[thelogicofikeandsoren]

The worst part of Hard Mode in Path of Radiance is that you are missing the dialogue where Soren praises Ike's strategy and Ike gets flustered because it's technically considered a tutorial.

The worst part of Normal Mode is you don't get to kill Ashnard as hard.

[thelogicofikeandsoren]

Here's my hot(?) take: Ike is a better power fantasy than the avatar characters, especially if you are noticeably different from your peer group, but NOT because you are richer or more popular.

[thelogicofikeandsoren]

So let's recap:

Soren was abandoned, abused, sold to be abused more, left alone when his only guardian died with little to no communication ability, left for dead, separated from Ike, the one person who showed him kindness, for several years, witness to the aftermath of a bloody massacre, ostracized by passersby, reunited with Ike only to learn he didn't remember him at all, thrust into the forefront of two bloody wars where Ike was orphaned, almost murdered for speaking out of turn, convinced he will lose Ike forever due to his heritage, blackmailed into silence because of that same heritage... And these are just the things that always happened that he knows about!

We can also potentially add others depending on the situation:

If no RD A support, he could eventually have been left behind by Ike

He could have been wounded to the point he could never fight again

He could have seen Ike die and been unable to stop it

Assuming they spend the rest of their lives together AND live their natural lifespan, he would eventually see Ike grow old and die without him

Bonuses that he doesn't know and may never know:

Watched two of his own relatives die, possibly helped kill them, one of whom probably would have liked him IF he gave him a chance (big if, sadly)

Will never know the good relationships he could have had with one uncle and his grandfather

May never know the good relationships he could have had with his other uncle and mother

And honestly? Given this? It's a miracle that Soren is just highly neurotic, tactless, and prejudiced instead of evil, insane, or dead, let alone how much Ike has helped him get better between games and (hopefully) beyond.

[thelogicofikeandsoren]

I do think the "Ike has two hands argument" has more to do with most of us being old enough to have seen the worst of the ship wars of ye olde days and are too damn old to have any interest in engaging in one. As lined out in your post it's pretty obvious Soren is the primary romantic choice for Ike and I could go to bat about it....but I'm tired.

I understand the sentiment, though there is a difference between a shipping "multi-verse" (which still wouldn't require a shipping war) and trying to reconcile multiple 'ships happening simultaneously in the same universe.

[thelogicofikeandsoren]

Maybe I'm just irritated with any conversation I enter about RD endings getting shut down with "Ike has two hands!!!" instead of actually discussing the story and characters, but I genuinely don't understand Ike and Ranulf romantically or why it should be treated with the same level of canonicity as Ike and Soren. I went back and did two story playthroughs of both Tellius games this month and still don't see it. I really like your analysis on Ike and Soren, so what's your take on Ike and Ranulf?

My take is that it has the second-most support for it out of all Ike's potential partners BUT that the distance between first and second is orders of magnitude larger than the distance between second and third (Elincia probably, with Lethe and Reyson tied for fourth, not counting one-sided Aimee), if we discount the very existence of the support ending.

In the text of the endings, you can see proof that Ike and Soren leave together, whereas with Ranulf it's only implied because of the fact it changes with the support, and Ranulf's reason for leaving with Ike is significantly less personal than Soren's.

As far as textual evidence outside of the endings that Ike and Ranulf would be more than friends, there isn't much; mostly just evidence of them being good friends and lack of counterevidence (what besides the ending puts Ranulf above Elincia). Maybe when he ran up to defend Ranulf from the Toha villagers, but even then that's more or less on the level with what he does for Elincia, with whom he does not have an ending. And well, I definitely don't have time to go over all the textual Ike/Soren evidence right now, but you are familiar already.

Ike and Ranulf are very good friends and have a lot in common, similar to Ike and Soren, although Soren and Ranulf are foils to each other, so it makes sense that Ike would be interested in both. However, what I find hard to reconcile is Ike leaving Soren for Ranulf (even if they weren't officially "together" prior to the end of RD, they were still very entwined in each other's lives), as well as the compromise where they all end up together. I can absolutely see Ranulf suggesting the latter, but I doubt Ike would be poly and even more that Soren would be willing to allow that to happen. He MAY submit under pressure, but Ike would NEVER pressure Soren to do something like that. I can see Ike ending up with Ranulf sometime in the future if Soren dies in battle (which would have to be in RD endgame or between the endgame and where are they now epilogue).

[skittyusedcharm]

Thinking about ikesoren, as one does, and how it’s pretty inarguable even from antis that Soren is really really helplessly devoted and probably in love even if you don’t ship them or think it’s canon, so then they default to Ike being the one who doesn’t care as much or reciprocate any kind of affectionate feeling

and then playing the beginning of Path of Radiance it’s like. Ike repeatedly saying that he relies on Soren so much, he needs him there with him (even before Greil’s death), please don’t leave me, etc. …. Mist running to tell Ike that Soren came home without her knowing why but clearly the priority is telling Ike about it, Greil having to yell at them for stopping to talk to each other when they’re supposed to be talking as a group about the war that just broke out. The fight with Mordecai and Lethe where they’re both jumping in front of the other to protect them

Like it’s so clear he’s also super attached despite being surrounded by friends and family so it isn’t a trauma bonding “I have no one else” thing, he just really likes this mean little guy who showed up one day stray cat style

[thelogicofikeandsoren]

Saw an ask saying the fandom paints Soren's relationship with Ike as the only one that matters and that Soren deserves better than just being "the Ike guy".

I guarantee the fandom is much more interested in his potential relationships with the other Greil Mercenaries, Ashnard, the Goldoan royal family, other Branded characters, Skrimir, and even Ranulf than Soren himself ever is (ignorance of his heritage notwithstanding).

Meanwhile, Soren canonically states repeatedly that his relationship with Ike is the only one that matters and so do both of his RD endings (yes, even the one where he doesn't follow Ike, sadly.)

[thelogicofikeandsoren]

I can't believe I forgot to mention Pelleas!

[thelogicofikeandsoren]

The character people think fills the niche of "unrequited obsessive admirer of the lord": Soren

The character who actually fills the niche of "unrequited obsessive admirer of the lord": Aimee

I don't know if they just don't think Aimee can count because she's not playable, but I don't know how you could miss the whole "Ike and Soren have a proto-S support and a paired ending" thing

Now, you could make the argument that some characters like Tharja fit the mold more-or-less despite having those, but the difference is avatar characters have tons of support ending options. Non-customizable lords tend to have significantly fewer, and Ike in particular has two. And only one of them has a proto-S support or even explicitly states they are together in the ending--the one with Soren.

[thelogicofikeandsoren]

Reasons to believe Soren likes girls:

He flirts with Aimee specifically so that Ike won't and to get a discount. Because this happens in Radiant Dawn, it is harder to read his facial expressions as he does so than it would be in Path of Radiance, and of course there is no voice acting, so this could be anywhere from "actually believable if you don't know Soren personally" to "said in the most bored/irritated tone ever and Aimee still swoons over it because she's just that desperate".

Reasons to believe Soren doesn't like girls:

Surprisingly, there was no direct counterevidence until Engage (as far as I remember):

Refuses to play Hortensia and Goldmary's flirty games (that said, he does the same with Rosado)

The ironic thing is, from the narrative choices they did make, it seems likely they already thought Soren not liking girls was obvious. I'm talking about two of the main characters who show an interest in Soren outside of Ike, Stefan and Skrimir, both being traditionally attractive masculine men, and Soren rejecting them specifically in favor of Ike. The only other characters who are that interested in learning more about Soren are related to him (or accidentally replaced him in the family), except for Micaiah, who is both in a committed relationship and pretty much only interacts with him as an enemy.

In other words, in order to make Soren's' solitary devotion to Ike clear, they don't need to show he isn't interested in women, but do need to show he isn't interested in other handsome men. Consider the inverse situations with Geoffrey (only interested in Elincia, not Calill) and Zihark (only interested in his lost love, not Ilyana or Meg).

It also helps that most women (except for Aimee and Hortensia's crew) seem to be able to tell they'd be barking up the wrong tree, ESPECIALLY Micaiah and Timerra.

[thelogicofikeandsoren]

Saw an ask saying the fandom paints Soren's relationship with Ike as the only one that matters and that Soren deserves better than just being "the Ike guy".

I guarantee the fandom is much more interested in his potential relationships with the other Greil Mercenaries, Ashnard, the Goldoan royal family, other Branded characters, Skrimir, and even Ranulf than Soren himself ever is (ignorance of his heritage notwithstanding).

Meanwhile, Soren canonically states repeatedly that his relationship with Ike is the only one that matters and so do both of his RD endings (yes, even the one where he doesn't follow Ike, sadly.)

[soren-apologist]

i unfortunately wasn’t able to get in-game screenshots of this scene, but ike’s dialogue here at the end of part 2 makes me believe that right after he calls bastian “crimea’s top tactician” he thinks of soren and then automatically changes his mind

[thelogicofikeandsoren]

Not even Soren gets away with saying Soren isn't good enough for Ike without being called weird or stupid (unless he's already having a nervous breakdown), so imagine saying that to him when you aren't Soren.

[thelogicofikeandsoren]

Reasons to think Ike likes girls

Calls Elincia a "good luck charm", defends her fiercely from the apostle, holds her hand, and is sad if she dies. Shinon and Ranulf make fun of him plausibly being in love with her.

Has in-game dialogue and supports with girls he becomes friendlier with like Elincia and Lethe.

Priam exists and is Ike's descendant. Probably. He and the flavor text say so but there certainly is some non-committal writing.

In Smash Bros, there's one clip where it looks like he's giving a flower to Palutena.

Reasons to think Ike doesn't like girls

Is extremely off-put by Aimee, but to be fair, she is acting like a creep.

Despite becoming friends with Elincia and Lethe and working with Mia for years, he can end up with none of them in the end and explicitly has no desire to pursue any relationship with Elincia even at the end of Path of Radiance.

In fact, he has no support endings with women at all, though he does only have two total.

He was so disinterested in the temple handmaidens, he just walked away without a word. He prefers the pretty flowers he ignores to do his job, which he prioritizes over absolutely everything except Soren's happiness. To be fair, Ike only prioritized making Soren happy over doing his job twice... Oh wait, it was three times but the second was unsuccessful because it was quickly interrupted.

Aimee is convinced if she didn't tell Ike she liked him, he wouldn't know. He tells her he wouldn't do anything about it even if he did know, which can be extrapolated to explain his non-reactions to Elincia and Marcia's potential flirting.

Aimee hypothesizes that Ike isn't interested in settling down yet, and Ike seems to believe she is wrong... He says she is delusional a few lines later, but to be fair, that was after she suggested she may have a chance with him in the future.

Calill, Goldmary, and arguably Hortensia try to get him to acknowledge their attractiveness. It doesn't work.

The art book explicitly states that he doesn't. Only, that's just supplemental material and a different translation of the same phrase could also mean that he doesn't notice their affections (see point 5).

These were the ones I could think of. If there are any others from Heroes, Engage, 3DS DLC, or other supplemental material (or even on the Tellius games that I forgot about), let me know!

Decide for yourself which is more likely!

Bonus:

Reasons to think Ike likes boys:

I can't list them all right now there's too many

Reasons to think Ike doesn't like boys:

[thelogicofikeandsoren]

Someone made a great point for Team "Priam is not a direct descendent of Ike" that I had yet to consider:

Ike hates the spotlight. It would be extremely unlikely that he would brag about his exploits or make his lineage known in such a way.

On the other hand, his sister (or more likely, his brother-in-law) or opportunistic liars would be much more likely to bring those things up in a way where Priam would want to live up to the legacy.

[thelogicofikeandsoren]

When did Soren realize he loved Ike?

I believe with near certainty that Soren did fall in love with Ike almost immediately. However, there is an argument that he might not have realized he did right away, so what are some moments he may have noticed?

There are a few moments that make sense to me:

Before the game even started, during the backstory. This is a very plausible option, considering he searched for years for a person he met once. He has had a lot of time to ruminate that we just never see.

During the Path of Radiance A Support, specifically after Ike reassures him he's fine the way he is. If Soren didn't know before, there's a very good chance he does now, and not just because of the line they censored in the localization, but also because he cuts himself off and then immediately starts giving Ike even more information about himself that wasn't asked about. This also provides the catalyst for Soren to admit to Ike that he only wants to be with him (at least platonically).

I find it highly unlikely that he doesn't know at least by Radiant Dawn, given his blatant wedding vow A support line, his defensive non-denial to Micaiah's "accusation", and his dramatic response to Ike being about to compliment Aimee. Not to mention the line "my only wish was to see you again" which definitely made Ike realize the depths of his feelings, if he didn't earlier.

What I do believe is that he would have a very hard time believing that Ike loves him back, even after Ike realizes he does, and you can sort of see that in the last scene, where Soren's first assumption is that Ike is only trying to hug him out of pity and not because he loves him. And of course, at least before the Path of Radiance A Support, Soren is convinced that this relationship is more precarious than it is. That might also explain why he doesn't want other people to know about his feelings, or try to advance the relationship at any point on his own*, because that could lead to him losing the relationship he already has, which is still more than he could have hoped for.

*In fact, during one of his bond conversations with Alcryst in Engage, he states "If you expect a refusal, don't ask". Now, granted, Engage was written long after Radiant Dawn, so this may not be entirely accurate, but it does seem consistent with what else we know.