So we see this screenshot during "Echoes of Oblivion" where Tenebrae finally gets his come-uppance. Kira's wonderful "everyone you've manipulated" line is just so perfect.
And it fits, because with the exception of Scourge, everyone in this particular shot is a documented Child of the Emperor. Most of them appear in the Jedi Consular story, though a couple are from the Jedi Knight story. (Like Suri and Tannac )
Here's the situation - Wookiepedia, which is generally a wonderful resource but is NOT a primary source - indicates that everyone in this shot besides Kira and Scourge are deceased at this point in the story. There is a certain logic to that, but its not explicit in the game.
This would mean that - regardless of your choices during the story - by the time of the events of "Echoes of Oblivion", Master Syo and all the other Children of the Emperor who may have survived the class stories are all dead.
(This would make Kira the only surviving C.O.E., but more on that another time.)
How do people feel about that? I might have liked to see Syo and some of the others survive and recover from their experiences. If we can demand it for Vaylin, surely we can demand it for the Children.
Spoilers for SWTOR content up to and including Secrets of the Enclave (6.3).
So I hypothesized before about what is going on with the comments from the PC and the NPCs in Secrets of the Enclave, alluding to the fact that the PC isn't able to feel things around them like Rivix, Krovos or Aryn Leneer. After playing through with a Jedi Consular, I really feel that the hypothesis that the PC can block what is around them is fair.
I don't think i t's going to be a deficit - I think it's going to be one explanation as to why the Commander is so exceptionally dangerous.
I think that while Force Empathy can be a special trait, completely concealing one's emotions/cutting oneself off from sensing things in the Force can also be a talent. I think it's one that can be exhibited by non-Force sensitives too - Theron is not Force sensitive, but his mind cannot be read by Lana, the Revanites OR the Order of Zildrog. Lana out and out says his mind cannot be read.
I think it's a two way street - the PC blocks both incoming and outgoing traffic, so to speak. Because it's coming up that other characters cannot sense the Commander's presence or read their thoughts/emotions.
It would also completely explain why the PC is so overpowered a lot of the time, even against Force sensitives. Their actions and intentions can't necessarily be read. Two more things have jumped out at me.
Spoilers for SWTOR content up to and including Secrets of the Enclave (6.3).
In this scene after Secrets of the Enclave, the Commander stands in the doorway listening to Rivix's conversation with Acina/Vowrawn. When they make their presence known, Rivix jumps and is visibly frightened.
Darth Rivix cannot sense the Commander standing in the doorway. He also appears afraid of the Commander, but let's leave that for a second. Let's focus on the fact that Rivix, who was all "I sense all this in the Dantooine Enclave, I'm surprised you don't" cannot sense the Commander, who appears to be standing about 6 feet away from him.
Darth Rivix: Oh, my apologies! The briefing doesn't start for a few more minutes. I thought...
On Iokath during KOTET, Lana can only feel the Commander is alive if she's romancing them. She's also especially thrilled about it. That would imply, in addition to the Force bond that has been mentioned in the canon, that the guard is down only because the Commander is close to her.
Lana Beniko: I knew you were alive. I felt it.
Also:
1. The Sith Warrior can successfully lie to Darth Baras from the time they are an acolyte. When Baras sends you to kill Tremel, if you refuse, there's never an indication Baras ever finds out until the end of the class story, when Tremel appears again. The same is true for Rathari on Nar Shaddaa.
2. The Sith Warrior can also apparently mask the fact that they live after the Quesh betrayal, until someone (likely Quinn or the Entity) tips Baras off.
3. The Sith Warrior can also stand right behind Baras when he's talking with Darth Vengean, without even being noticed.
4. The Sith Inquisitor can also completely conceal their thoughts from their mentor. Zash doesn't know about the Inquisitor's relationship to Lord Kallig unless the SI tells them; she also doesn't know how the Inquisitor recovers that holocron on Korriban unless the SI chooses to chare.
5. The Sith Warrior can completely hide from Darth Ekkage in the same room.
6. Valkorion is in the Commander's mind but isn't able to see what they did on Nathema or if they spoke to Lord Dramath or picked up the holocron. He later asks directly about that twice and can't see beyond what the PC tells him.
7. All eight classes can resist the Dread Masters on Oricon.
8. All eight classes can resist Vitiate on Ziost.
9. In KOTFE/KOTET, Valkorion is in the Commander's mind, but only has control over the Commander if he is directly summoned and given permission; or if the Commander is incapacitated at that moment.
10. In the Dark Temple on Dromund Kaas, there are three separate side quests where all four Imperial classes are said to be "immune" or clearly not feeling at all influenced by the spirits in the Temple. They also can clearly see when others are possessed.
Aneryah: No. Whatever seems to be...distracted, now. I was able to escape, and you seem immune.
11. For the saboteurs in the audience, it's always seemed foolish that the factions would trust the PC in spite of everything. Only Malgus and the Jedi at the end of Echoes seem to have suspicion. Everyone else just seems to assume the PC is on the up and up with them. But if they can completely conceal their thoughts and motives it makes much more sense.
The Jedi Consular really was like “I know a thing or two about sith plagues” to Kira and Scourge then pull up to Echoes of Oblivion and didn’t even try the shielding technique. I just think it would be funny if the Consular was just able to skip the flash point by pulling and fixing the problem in like 3 seconds but only the Consular.
After re-playing Echoes of Oblivion, I’m thinking that this part of the patch is a massive Socratic Problem.
Disclaimer: I think the Flashpoint was under-written (not enough time/money/vocal talent due to COVID) which led to no major new revelations about any of the characters. If we had found out new stuff, then I think I would be more inclined to say it is what the game says it is: an adventure in Satele’s mind. But since we didn’t, it wasn’t. This is me going off on a lark again, so enjoy the theorycrafting.
What is the Socratic Problem?
So, when Socrates was condemned for 'impiety’ and ‘corrupting the young’ -- aka, stirring sedition and civil unrest against a corrupt government - not only was he put to death but all of his works were destroyed as well. Essentially, all we know today about Socrates and his philosophy come through his students. Plato is a biggie. He claims many times throughout his works that a certain opinion was Socrates, and he also used him as the ‘hero’ or main character in his philosophical dialogues - Socrates almost always wins.
Here’s the Socratic Problem: is this a true representation of Socrates, as he was? Or is this the fond memory of a dear student of a lost master? Is Plato telling the facts, telling the truth, or making Socrates fan fiction?
....what the hell does that have to do with Echoes of Oblivion?
I think we’re dealing with the same problem here when we supposedly go into Satele’s mind. I don’t think we do. I think this is just another exploration of the mind of the player character and their trauma from the last 10 years.
Is Satele sick with a virus? Yes. Is the Emperor trying to grow a collective being that he can manifest in? Yes, preferably Satele-shaped and powered by her students’ life force.
But the second that the player goes into that trance with Kira and Scourge, everything is only happening in the player’s mind. Nobody else is in there. Darth Marr suggests as much. When the player chooses “You seem very insightful,” he replies, “I know only what you know.”
It’s like writing your own fan fic -- your characters know what you know, as the author. If they make a mistake about their own biography, it’s because you lacked the knowledge. In turn, if they are aware of something other characters are not, it’s because of you. To me, that line says that everything we see happen is the Alliance Commander’s ‘mental fan fic’ about killing the Emperor.
There is no revelation of information about the characters that the player works with. We learn nothing new about Scourge, Kira, the Emperor’s family, Revan -- we’ve met all of them, but there’s no ‘secret past’ uncovered....
Not even for Satele... whose mind we’re supposedly in.
And indeed, the only things the character sees are their own memories. Remember that little padawan on Tython? That’s not Satele; Satele re-discovered Tython -- she was never a student there.
Why do all of the possible player character classes have memories of Tython? Because of the Tython/Korriban incursions. (I know mechanically, this is skippable in game, but work with me here.) The Outlander becomes the Outlander because they caught the eye of the Emperor at Ziost, which only happens because of Yavin 4, which only happens because of Rishi, which only happens because of the conspiracy discovered at Tython and Korriban.
This makes me want to conclude that we’re never in Satele’s head, actually; there is nothing revealed about her that we don’t already know. So who is the padawan? Maybe the player saw one of the little kids cowering after the incursion -- maybe that stuck in their minds for good or bad. But historically speaking, that is absolutely not Satele.
And Marr let us in on that secret... but that’s not Marr. That is our memory of Marr. Marr the realist. Marr, who confronted the truth that his approach to the Force had been wrong in life -- and admitted it. Marr, the truth teller. Marr the Socratic Problem.
In fact, all the people we see in that dream/vision/mind adventure are our Socratic images of people we’ve encountered before. That includes Revan, who the player met during the Yavin 4 op and appears as a Force ghost before they go into a trance.
...ok. So what was the whole flashpoint, by that logic?
The flashpoint isn’t Satele’s mind. It’s the playable character’s mind. Everything that happens? Essentially the player’s fan fic about how they really killed the Emperor. Everything is representative and completely controlled by the memory of the player. Remember, “My mind, my rules” in the finale of KotET.
That is, until the very end when Satele ‘wakes up’ and reveals that she and her students have been playing dead, essentially; they let the Emperor think he had consumed and dominated them. They let his arrogance think they had toppled easy, with Satele barely hanging on by a thread. While she dangled, the Emperor turned his attention to the player character. The second that the player entered the trance, Satele, the students, and the Emperor all ‘changed instances’ to the player’s mind, not Satele’s mind. The only things there are things that that the player knew.
What purpose does the Commander serve?
Remember that the door swung two ways on the whole Emperor’s occupation of the Outlander’s mind. Not only could the Outlander not get rid of Valkorion, but Valkorion could not get out. He never does regain the power to use the Outlander as a meat puppet; the Outlander fights too hard for Valkorion to get up off that throne and kill Lana/Theron/Senya/Arcann.
Basically, Scourge and Kira are using the Commander as a cage. Remember that the imprint of Tenebrae (the so-called virus) doesn’t know anyone. Valkorion, Vitiate -- they’re manifestations of a personality that is currently running on a backup file that was made once and not updated. Valkorion ‘knows’ thanks to Kira’s memories that he lived in the Outlander. Vitiate ‘knows’ he controlled Kira and the Jedi Knight in the past... but neither of them remember how that worked. They have the facts, gleaned from sources after the fact, but they have no active memory of doing these things.
That means Valkorion doesn’t necessarily ‘know’ or ‘remember’ how trapped he was in the Outlander’s mind. He sees this powerful person, he wants that powerful person to control... and can’t remember what happened last time.
The Emperor is all too keen to run into the trap that is the Commander’s head. Another big powerful creature like Satele Shan he can dominate and control -- and off he went to try to consume the player’s mind. But he forgot what happened at the end of that story!
But Satele says it’s her mind and her trap.
And so it is. I do think Satele was containing the Emperor until Scourge and Kira arrived with the player character. As I say above, I think there’s a moment where everyone ‘changed instances’ into the player’s mind, which is the cage of Valkorion. Otherwise, I think we would have seen things and done things that would reveal more about Satele. We only see and hear things that the player knew before they went into a trance.
Ultimately, the spirit/essence/soul/whatever of the Emperor is defeated by the Jedi Force plan thing that Scourge and Kira and Satele cooked up. They just use the player as a holding pen, essentially; worked before, so why not now?
Also, the end scene of the the flashpoint (the one with Satele) can be very self-indulgent. Want to kill Satele? Oh, if only you could. You want to confess how you regret your decision regarding exiling/killing Theron? Forgive me, Mother, for I have sinned. Want your mother-in-law’s approval, if you romanced Theron? Here you go. Want a Grand Master to say what a great and powerful Jedi/Sith you are? You get a compliment, you get a compliment... It’s whatever the player wants Satele to say to them. So again, this is all a happy coda to the flashpoint that the player in their own mind dreams up. (Granted, is that not the function of video games? Us being the hero? Us getting a little wish fulfillment?)
Can that still be real, if we 'change instances’ back into Satele’s mind once the Emperor is defeated? Sure. If you believe Dream!Satele is real (and reusing her campground on Odessen), go for it.
**
As I said at the top, I have a feeling this is more of a product of under-developed writing than a deliberate deep dive in to Socrates. I wish we did find out more about Satele; Theron indicated he didn’t want to go in because he didn’t want to dig deep into her psyche. He didn’t know what we would find -- turned out to be nothing, but... there could have been something.
Hey guys. You know what we haven’t done in a while? That’s right! Put on our tinfoil hats, get tangled up in an entire spool of red string, and do a ridiculous deep dive on lore and make up wild insane theories about the upcoming story drop!
That’s right we’ve got some--
First up. If you haven’t watched it already, here’s the trailer for the 6.2 story drop, specifically for the storyline we’ll be doing our deep dive on, Echoes of Oblivion.
Are you pumped? I’M PUMPED. Let’s do this!
Okay, so there’s a lot to unpack here, and I’m going to state outright, that the chances of this being on the money like Gravedrog is... well. I’ve got no lottery numbers for you this time around. I can’t believe no one took me up on that offer. There’s always the possibility the storyline has absolutely nothing to do with any previously established lore, and they create something wholly new. And hey, if that’s the case, this is just free fanfic fodder for the masses.
But Charles did mention, I believe on the forums(?), that he’s seen one person guess what’s going on. The real question is... WHO GUESSED IT. HMM.
So I’ve been wanting to actually do a post on this a while, at least since Arcann’s voice actor accidentally made the slip up about Thexan being in this story drop. A large part of this theory/discovery goes to the lovely @confettininjabean, who found this piece of lore when we were getting tangled up in red string back in the Gravedrog days, pre-Nathema Conspiracy. Let’s just say, there was a... certain interaction on Twitter that had us thinking this had something to do with NC, and when it didn’t pan out we were like “Oh, weird, guess that wasn’t on the right track” and forgot about it.
Well, sort of. Because we were like, “that really seemed significant considering”, but hey, sometimes you hit upon a Gravedrog, sometimes you think Indo Zal is an evil mastermind playing 4D chess. In other words, when it comes to red string theories, you win some. You lose some.
Anyway. I forget why, but I went perusing on Wookieepedia a few months ago, looking back up this sort of obscure piece of lore for some reason. And something about it was.... FAMILIAR.
The article in question: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Thought_bomb
May I direct your attention, to this part:
Hey. Where have I heard that before?
Aw. Aw shit. Well I mean, that can’t be right though, right? Because it’s Satele and a bunch of Jedi/like-minded Force users that are being possessed right? And besides this is an an ancient Sith ritual thought to be created by...
Oh.
Oh wait.
But that’s a plague right? Not the same thing as a thought bomb. I mean it’s not like anyone in SWTOR has dealt with a Force plague--
Oh. huh. But you might say, “But Grey, that plague was invented by Terrak Morrhage, not Vitiate.” And you would be right! What I can’t seem to find confirmation of, thus far, is exactly when Terrak Morrhage lived, but by me and Jayde’s current reckoning, it seems like he may have been around possibly during the Great Hyperspace War, the end of which Vitiate used in his mad grab for immortality and power, manipulating what was probably a majority of the remaining Sith Lords into his brand spanking new ritual that he just needed a little help with.
Okay, and this is where we leave lore land, and enter into speculation land. I, um, just got sidetracked on Jedipedia (I’ll get to that), trying to find a codex entry regarding Vitiate I know I’ve read but I lost at some point. So, we’re going off memory here, but I’m fairly certain it’s stated in canon somewhere that prior to his ascension, Vitiate was obsessed with Sith alchemy and ancient Sith rituals. So if Morrhage pre-dated him, or was a peer, it’s possible Vitiate was able to learn about his plague, and adapt it to some of his other experiments.
Okay, back to the thought bomb for a moment. Full disclosure, I haven’t read the Darth Bane novels, so I’m going off of Wookiepeedia here instead of the source material (which is always a dicey affair), it says Bane adapted the thought bomb from notes on the ritual Vitiate performed. So, it’s possible the thought bomb is not a 100% Vitiate original, just a bastardization of it. But it’s interesting that the ritual itself gathers up and shreds the Force essence/soul of everyone in its path. Well, I mean, horrifying. But in this theory’s perspective, interesting in that when Vitiate used Zildrog as part of his ritual--where did all of the Force go exactly?
Because as you wander around Nathema, you hear the tortured whispers of every soul obliterated during that ritual.
This is talked about a little in the Revan novel, and it’s been a few years since I read it so I’m kind of going off memory again, but he basically created a void in the Force there. And remember... in the KOTET chapter we went to Nathema, he was actually visibly afraid a few times. Hmm... now why would that be? Was it Vaylin he was afraid of? Was it something else?
If memory serves, there wasn’t an actual explosion like as described with the thought bomb--because he wasn’t using the ritual as a weapon. He was using it to gather power, to shuffle off this mortal coil and live eternal as an annoying spirit who you just can’t quite squash out no matter how many mind mazes you build to keep him locked up. So, and again, this is speculation land, but all of that swirling Force and dead energy had to go somewhere right? I mean, Zildrog had his snack and went omnomnom, but where did the Force power go? And why was there a Void that constantly pulled at him and sapped away his power on Nathema?
Is it because the Force didn’t explode? Is it because he bound it up in his old disgusting decaying old man flesh? And the only reason he was alive because he basically made himself a little flesh horcrux that was destroyed at the exact moment we sent him off to the Void that he feared so much?
Hmm. Interesting.
Wait. Wait a second... I think there was something else he mentioned. Now, what was it?
You know, I had always assumed he was talking about Gravedrog being unleashed, since the whole reason he went to Zakuul was likely to find the Gravestone so he could pair it with Zildrog back on Nathema, and enact his galaxy-wide extinction event.
And maybe he was.
Or was he talking about his failsafe.
The one he knew would happen if someone destroyed his old, withered, icky body?
So... if the ritual/plague is some take on the thought bomb, and it infects any Force user like some prescient, who could have realized this is what 2020 held in store for us pandemic that spread rapidly and consumed everyone who touched it, until it made manifest what was once just thought...
Is the whole entire point of this to bring Valky back from the dead? Or is it just his last revenge? And what on earth would that last revenge be? Well... and just hear me out. Say there was this guy. Kind of an asshole. And he had this whole schtick about killing every single living thing in the galaxy and liked to consume whole planets in a single gulp just for funsies. Wouldn’t it be so funny if he, say, in the unlikely event he possessed some Outlander who happened to go “get out and get a job loser!” and booted him off to the beyond, and at the same time his old indentured servant and that chick he once possessed found his horcrux and destroyed that, wouldn’t it be a kick if that somehow kicked off a plague that consumed every single Force user in the entire galaxy until it had enough power and then exploded and completely wiped out all life in the galaxy, so that if the asshole who’s name totally isn’t Valkorion couldn’t live forever then neither could any. single. thing. in. the. galaxy.
I mean, that or it’s just a ploy to get him into one final boss fight.
But i dunno... I kind of just found the entire cast list of who’s in the Echoes of Oblivion storyline (warning, major spoilers and datamining on that link, and yes, that’s what distracted me on Jedipedia) and I’m kind of thinking. Having to keep the entire galaxy from being consumed by a sociopath’s final revenge kind of sounds like a pretty epic finale, don’t you?
And hey, if not. Free fanfic idea for anyone who wants it.
Oh yeah, also predicting the following:
We’re going on another mindscape adventure like in KOTET Chapter 9, but it’s Satele’s mind we’re in
It’s not actually Valkorion/Vitiate/Tenebrae, but a remnant/essence of him that’s made manifest by the ritual. Also he needs a combo nickname because I’m tired of having to pick one of three names. I shall call you Valkiatebrae. It’s a beautiful name. I know he’ll love it.
Vaylin and Thexan who we see in the trailer are probably also manifestations conjured by the quasi- Valkiatebrae
We’re going to Ossus? Or Ossus in Satele’s mind?
The Knight and crew missed a few of the death cult back in the storyline, and that’s who was either watching Tenebrae’s body, or who hijacked Satele’s ship OR they have some part in the ritual (perhaps the part to physically manifest Valkiatebrae). We see them in the trailer above.
Regardless if any single one of these predictions is right I’m going to die of feels
Because I think Satele and Theron may have a scene together????? OMG
I’m screaming again
I’ll stop now
I’m sorry Charles I hope I didn’t do it to you again I couldn’t help myself, but hey at least I kept it in this long
EDITED TO ADD: Okay guys, I’ve been looking more at Jedipedia. I think I can safely hazard a guess that a LOT of fans of different characters are going to be super happy with this update. Just saying.
