#tsr discourse

[snowygracetheriver]

But dude went into Avatar State both times...

[twinsarekeepers]

Discourse around TSR is always boring “Zuko was enabling Katara, Aang was right!” and never “there is importance to Zuko being Right There when Katara makes the decision to spare Yon Rah’s life. He’s acting not just as Katara’s foil in that episode but Yon Rah’s too. He was once someone who came to her village and took someone she cared about but now he’s standing next to her as the person who gave her the tools to seek justice in whatever way she needed/wanted. He’s the exact opposite of this pathetic empty shell of a man whimpering at her feet and begging for her to kill his mother instead. Zuko instead once reached out to empathize with her over the losses of their mothers and accepted her anger towards him as justified without any stipulations”. The parallels are literally begging to be dug into with how on the nose they are.

[snowygracetheriver]

I feel like TSR would have had the exact same result without Aang's intervention. I don't think Aang's "advice" for Katara had any influence at all on her decision to not kill Yon Rha.

It just showed us that Zuko understood Katara's needs better than Aang and that Aang didn't trust her to make the right choice.

[snowygracetheriver]

Suki and Toph would have so supported Katara with Zuko if they were there during the argument in TSR.

[twinsarekeepers]

Wanting to earn someone’s forgiveness vs expecting someone to choose forgiveness are two different things and somehow the ATLA fandom mixes that shit up when it comes to TSR even though the difference is clearly spelled out.

[twinsarekeepers]

The context of Katara using bloodbending in TSR is so important, but people just boil it down to “Katara was consumed by her rage”. The only episode in the entire franchise that treats bloodbending with the nuances it deserves btw. She willingly used a technique that she was once forced into learning but was developed by one of the last bender’s of her tribe to escape a Fire Nation prison on a Fire Nation soldier who she thinks killed her mother because he believed she was the last bender of the SWT. She did not bloodbend other soldiers on that ship and she stopped as soon as she realized this man was not the soldier who killed her mother because it wasn’t about wanting to scare him or hold power over him, it was about reclaiming a part of herself and her history that she had lost both when Hama forced her to learn bloodbending against her will by putting her friends in danger and when her mother was killed. Did she hold power over him in that moment and did she scare him? Yes, but that wasn’t the reason she chose to use bloodbending in that moment. If she had chosen any other form of waterbending to restrain him and threaten him, she would still be holding power over him and scaring him too. In fact that would show more intent to hold power over him and scare him than bloodbending him did because those other bending techniques don’t have the added weight of how and whom they were developed by.

[snowygracetheriver]

Answers to pro-Kataang arguments I've received on my anti-Kataang post – Part V

Disclaimer: I'm making this post to respectfully counter arguments a Kataang shipper made on another post of mine. I think this discussion is worthy of its own post, it doesn't deserve to stay hidden in the comments (and really, I cannot sort out my thoughts in the comments when there is so much to say). I basically copy-pasted, lightly edited and compacted what was repetitive in their comments, as well as some of my arguments in the comments, to fit the post here. Please do not go bully anyone, it would definitely go against the goal here. Please do feel free to contribute to the debate, as opposing party or not, as long as you behave in a civil manner.

In my original post, I implied how hypocritical of Aang it was that he'd compare him finding out about the genocide of his people and Appa being stolen to Katara losing her mother and wanting to confront her murderer as Aang went into the Avatar State both times, and he expects Katara to forgive Yon Rha.

Someone disagreed with me in my comments. Now, I'll try my best to summarise their arguments and give my counter arguments.

This is Part V out of V of this very long post.

Read more: Part I / Part II / Part III / Part IV

By the way, said Kataanger commentator will also be commenting on those posts I believe. Have fun reading!

They say: Aang tells Katara not to go hesitantly because he knew her action would be destructive. After he realizes how much she needed it, he tells her to face him and let her anger (facing him and fighting him). Then he continues by saying choose as in not killing, I’ve explained how it’s killing because he literally says to confront him and let her anger out. And Zuko says he was right that violence wasn’t the answer. And since violence was already done, it’s obvious it’s about killing. Think, Aang never was against fighting people or facing them, he was against killing.

My answer:

Aang first reaction at Katara asking to use Appa with Zuko was not understanding, it was condescension.

Aang : Um ... and what exactly do you think this will accomplish?

This is typically the reaction of someone who thinks the other is acting irrationally and being stupid.

It is Aang that assume the worst of Katara, thinking she is planning on killing Yon Rha. I don’t think Katara knows herself what she wants to do at this point. I also think Zuko’s presence actually helps her ground herself in reality and prevents her from killing Yon Rha. Because this is grief and anger and sadness repressed for years, unacknowledged and validated by no one, of course she could have lost control. But it is finally acknowledged and validated by Zuko, who is the one who sensed her distress after her separation with her father, the one who actively tries to know more about the circumstances of Kya’s death and find the culprit, and the one who is here to support Katara through the journey. Aang only accepts to let her go after he realises she won’t change her mind, and that was hours later.

Zuko saying that Aang was right that violence wasn’t the answer doesn’t necessarily mean it’s about killing. Violence being already used proves anything, because even if she had killed him, violence and murder still wouldn’t be the answer.

They say: What the fuck do you think he meant by saying face the man you hate on a revenge mission with Zuko and let your anger out? Do you know what it means to let your anger out? This is what Katara did, she let her anger out on him but choose forgiveness. Sparing the killer was an act of forgiveness despite Katara denying it, which is why Zuko says afterwards he was right.

My answer:

Aang doesn’t tell Katara to put her anger on Yon Rha. What he tells her is to let her anger out, and then let it go, which is not the same thing. In the former, Yon Rha would be the target of a violent form of anger; in the latter, the anger has no direct target. She would be angry at Yon Rha but not necessarily letting it out on him. She doesn’t need to attack anyone in order to let go of her anger.

Sparing the killer was definitely not an act of forgiveness. It is serious mischaracterisation of Katara to think that she did forgive Yon Rha. In an episode where she reclaims her agency, finally having enough power to face the man who invaded her home and killed her mum, if she says she doesn’t forgive him, she means it. She says she forgives Zuko though, and her attitude when she talks about Zuko is clearly different from the one towards Yon Rha. Zuko saying that violence wasn’t the answer is to redirect the conversation to Aang and his plan on defeating Ozai.

They say: Zuko’s quote has nothing to do with Aang’s fight with Ozai because he literally was talking about Katara, “you were right about what Katara needed, violence wasn't the answer'. And him bringing up Ozai actually strengthen my point because Aang never had a dilemma about fighting Ozai but had a dilemma about KILLING HIM! Which literally proves my point 😭

My answer:

The complete quote is:

Zuko: You were right about what Katara needed. Violence wasn't the answer. Aang: It never is. Zuko: Then I have a question for you. What are you gonna do when you face my father?

This has everything to do with Aang’s fight with Ozai. He uses the current situation to then mention his intention, that’s to say making Aang focus on what he planned for his fight with Ozai, precisely because now he knows Aang has a dilemma about killing Ozai. Up until now, everyone assumed that Aang was going to kill Ozai to defeat him but Zuko realises he is not. I’m not sure Aang realises himself that he needs to find a solution if he won’t kill (what was he going to do during the invasion if not kill? Aang hasn’t thought things through). From a narrative point of view, this was Elizabeth Welch’s way of linking this episode to the main storyline.

[twinsarekeepers]

And another thing about TSR discourse is that it’s thinly veiled misogyny. “Katara is emotional and angry and needs someone to pull her back/not encourage her to give into those emotions”…

The misogyny in this is two fold. One is obviously painting a young girl’s anger towards her mother’s killer as something unreasonable or “dark” and saying her desire for justice through the means available to her is the wrong path. But further, it’s a fundamental misunderstanding of her character to say that. Katara is able to separate her righteous anger from the necessity of violence with no external factor because she values justice. We literally see her do it with Zuko. She’s mad at him (rightfully), but the only time she threatens to hurt him is right after he joins and she never follows through with that threat. In fact, she saves his life even before she’s forgiven him. The worst we see her do is throw a few verbal jabs his way. To paint her as someone who is “out of control” and “unstable” because of the very justifiable anger and grief she experiences in TSR is to completely mischaracterize her.

Katara is a character that values and upholds justice and morality. How she acts in TSR is not her straying from that just because she’s allowing herself to act on her anger. It shows how principled she actually is as a warrior.