#undertale rant

[o-sunny-day]

Oh right. The other one.

CW: Undertale rant/analysis

Ive played Undertale- hundreds of times. and lately ive reflected on how the game is supposed to make you feel IN THE MOMENT- since ive kinda forgotten a lot of that. Because of the aforementioned ✨“hundreds of times”✨

Everything ofc still feels just as captivating, but nothings surprising because im not playing it from the perspective of someone who has absolutely no idea whats going to happen next. Sometimes I overlook and forget how the little details are supposed to make you feel/think about the characters. Like how Undyne is implied to be an abusive boss. After you get to know her, then replay, you hear how Papyrus talks about her at first, and see their interaction as you enter Waterfall, and you completely understand!

But BEFORE- youre like “oooohhh she’s threatening him-“

On this topic, I rewatched some playthroughs, and saw their first reactions to geno papyrus death, and I realized. that this room placement. IS SO COOL!!!!

Normally its like- yep! I just befriended/beat papyrus, time to continue on my way- oo hi sans! sure, ill go to Grillbys with you! Even on replays, you’re not really excepting him in any room hes in, im just like “oh yep, theres the man.”

But when you kill Papyrus for the first time, usually on a geno route. That same thing kicks in. You’re not predicting him to be there cause youre focused on the room youre in currently, but when you GET THERE youre like “oh yeah and thats where Sans is” but he’s NOT THERE and you stop for a millisecond and go “oh, no yeah, that makes sense.”

…the silence doesn’t help either.

Its worse that he’s all over the underground too, not just in the start of Waterfall. Even not seeing him in front of the mtt resort is just a slap in the face 😭

If youve gotten to the phase of killing people on purpose to see what will happen, youve also gotten to the phase of KNOWING theres gonna be consequences, so Sans not being there shoudnt hit as hard as it does BUT IT DOES (at least for me)

The typical reactions to Monster death in general that you cant avoid are Undyne and Sans’ speeches, and neutral run phonecalls. DIALOGUE. things that appear because of what you did. But with Sans its not what he does or says (up until the judgment hall) its what he doesn’t do.

He doesn’t bother to show up, to say anything to you because what is there to say??? Ignoring how personal it is for a sec- Sans knows this isnt your first time playing, but doesn’t comment on it (much). Right now he still believes the anomaly just wants to be happy, so gives the benefit of the doubt.

That is until you kill the dude that is impossible to kill on accident, or argue in self defense.

Now Sans knows the anomaly just wants to know what will happen. Doesn’t care if its bad or not, they’re just curious, so theres no point.

STILL he wants them to reset and do something ELSE so he halfway pleads with them in the judgment hall to rethink what they’ve done. The fact that he asks an answerable question feels important to me, like hes searching for something, ANY reason. But maybe hes trying to make you see that- there was no reason. Youre DUMB and you should RESET because- WHAT WAS THE POINT OF THIS????

What I also find really powerful even on replays, is the silence after he drops lines like this. Especially the judgment hall question. Sometimes I do sit there and soak in the silence like- “jesus. Yeah, why DID i do that?”

My main point of this entire thing is, I LOVE this game, I LOVE Papyrus and his impact on the game even when he isnt there, and I wish I could play it for the first time again, and fall in love with it all over again, but alas, hitting myself with a rock to screw up my memory only works 17% of the time,

so im happy enough sticking with changing my perspective, and taking a moment to remember what it felt like to accidentally kill toriel and realize your actions have consequences, to beat Undyne the Undying, to hug Asriel, to hear that Undertale was getting a “sequel”, and to hear that dreaded line, “Then why did you kill my brother.” all for the first time again.

[mikkstaape]

Number 1 Chara defender here!!

I have never, and will never understand why people hate Chara. For me it was obvious at 8 years old that Chara is not the epitome of evil, but rather a child who was struggling.

At the end of a pacifict run, when you go all the way back and talk to Asriel, he does mention that Chara was not the best. I think people take this too literally, not realising that it just meant that Chara may not have been pleasant, but they weren't evil.

You forget why they wandered up the mountain in the first place. It's rumoured that people never return, so why would a child go there intentionally?

Chara's hate for humanity is something we'll never find out about, but for me, the way Chara argued with Asriel that violence was the only way, tells me Chara has only been taught that Violence is the way.

UGHH 💔 It's so obvious that they weren't treated well, or that the history they were taught upset them to the point of hating their own kind, it screams a child who is passionate about a loving and kind world, only to have their view shattered by stories of pointless violence.

I want you to take a look in the mirror and ask yourself why you think a character can't be mean but also caring, why you feel it's necessary to hate a child for biting when that's the only thing it's been taught

[oddwriterhere]

Pls peeps, drop an ask about Undertale or UTMV. Headcanons, hot takes, characters, ships you like, rants, yapping. I'd love to hear it! I just wanna ramble about this amazing fandom and the peeps in it, so feel to drop an ask in my ask box anytime!

[idkm-idwbh]

I think it’s super funny that people change clover and frisk’s “roles” in fanart

like, it is stated a lot that frisk has a lot of expressions and all and that clover is “emotionless” having only the •_• face. But in fanart frisk is always -_- and cliver is always with some smile or something. I think it’s funny

[icarianbeast]

I just finished watching a playthrough of the genocide route in Undertale (not my first time watching, but it's been a healthy 8 years since I saw it last) and I am just completely struck by how insanely sad it is?? I know that's the point- that's why I could never play it myself. I couldn't even ever reset, knowing that it would pull them all back to the underground just so I could play again, the guilt would kill me.

But anyway, it's just really struck me how completely heartwrenching everyone's deaths are, but especially Sans. I feel like he's kind of gotten the short end of the stick, fandom-wise, with how everyone treats him as a character like he's just some tumblr sexyman we play with like a doll. He's such a crazy complex character that seems to just have been boiled down to a meme in the fandom (and outside of it).

Watching his death made me bawl. I cried over Papyrus and Undyne and Toriel as well, but Sans really wrecked me. Refusing to die in front of the one who killed him- hanging on just long enough to leave the screen- letting himself have some measly scrap of empty joy in his last moments, with seeing his brother again (assumedly, hallucinations or visons coming from a dying mind- or if you're feeling optimistic, the spirit of Papyrus, but that doesn't really fit in canon, I don't think, it's just a thought to make you feel better if you force yourself to believe it) and leaving to go to a place he feels comfort- I'm literally broken about this.

Toby Fox is such an amazing storyteller. I will always love this game and these characters will always have a place in my heart. They mean so much to me.

(And before you ask (if you made it this far and care, for some reason, lol) yes I am aware that Deltarune exists and I will be playing it once it's all come out, I know Undertale isn't Toby's only game)

[iceemperorsmalewife]

uhm guys...my undertale hyperfixations has returned after 7 years ofc right after me and @idkwhyimhere5462 we're playing it last week

[theabyssqueen]

Chara is our partner, not our victim (rant)

Warning: may sound like Chara hate to some, but Chara is actually one of my favorite characters in Undertale since childhood. I love them. Please keep this in mind while reading this.

Undertale fandom (especially on Youtube and ESPECIALLY Tiktok) try to use critical thought and realise after 8 years that Chara is just as responsible for the Genocide route and is a willing participant in it challenge (impossible)

Like how can you think that Chara is punishing you for your sins at the end of Genocide or is disgusted with you if they helped you throughout it all?

We do not corrupt them.

We do not manipulate them.

Chara is your partner on equal grounds. They make it very clear right at the end of Genocide that you were never in control.

I repeat: we are NEVER in control of Chara.

Treating them as a lost and confused baby without any freedom of choice or thought is a disservice to the character.

Proof under the cut.

The Genocide Run has strict requirements for it to be started. For red text to appear, you need to kill 20 monsters in the Ruins, fully clearing them out. Yet, if you kill the first Froggit you meet, AND 19 monsters, Genocide does not begin. Why is that? I thought Chara was corrupted by all the LV and EXP we are gaining!

It's because Chara doesn't care if the first Froggit is killed or not. Only the monsters after it count.

Additionally, the last chance that Genocide can be aborted is right before Mettaton NEO, at which point, you should be at LV 15. Thing is, this LV can be reached even during a Neutral Run, by grinding 39 Knight Knights in the CORE. Yet, red text still doesn't appear.

Sparing monsters in Genocide is possible and doesn't deter Chara from the Run (but only if it's a common encounter).

Chara berates you if Snowdrake gets away and Genocide is aborted immediately.

Chara keeps count of the monsters needed to be killed and will stop you from advancing further in some sections if there are still monsters left.

They could easily just not do all of that.

Frisk's independent actions out of the Player's control during Genocide are actually not theirs, but Chara's. Chara kills Flowey, Asgore, and Sans. And while an argument could be made for us influencing Chara into killing Sans, the same cannot be made for Asgore's and Flowey's deaths. There isn't even any FIGHT button for us to press. The only thing we are doing at this point is advancing dialogue.

And this is considering that Flowey and Asgore were/are both Chara's family, or at least akin to one.

Listen, I get it. I also hate when people put all the blame on Chara. I also dislike when people just stamp "evil" onto them and erase all possible nuance. But that doesn't mean that we should go right into the opposite direction and act as if they're innocent or righteous.

At the end of Genocide, no matter your input on the matter, Chara ends the world. Not just you, not just the monsters still left alive in the Underground, but the whole universe. That indescribably outweighs all the misdeeds we have done during the Run.

Just think about it. Is really killing EVERYONE in the world justifiable, if you do it to punish someone? Even a murderer? To make them "see the consequences of their actions"?

How does that make sense?

How does that elevate them from you in any capacity?

Is it because they talk of "perverted sentimentality", which evades even them? Chara only talks about it if you try to return to the world you had a part in destroying. Chara only talks about if on the 2nd+ Genocide Run you do not comply with erasing everything.

In fact, if you play along, they compliment you. And they don't say anything about your feelings on the matter.

Killing and erasing is encouraged. If you do so, in Chara's eyes, you are a beneficial and trustworthy partner.

And the photo. The photo that appears at the end of Soulless Pacifist if you leave Toriel. Instead of Frisk, Chara is shown, and everyone else's faces are crossed out, implying that they are dead.

Some argue that this is just Chara trying to scare you, or remind you of all the murder you've committed, keeping you responsible.

Alphys is scribbled out.

It is impossible to kill Alphys in Genocide.

It's possible she kills herself during some pretty bad Neutral Runs. Not to mention that, in general, a lot of Neutral Runs are just as, if not worse than Genocide.

Why won't Chara guilt trip you for having done them, then?

And I just can't wrap my mind around someone thinking that Chara is literally pulling a "just a prank bro" here. Especially considering that this is never shown or hinted at to be the case.

And as the icing on the cake, look at the text that appears after the end of Genocide in the Undertale Demo:

To me, at this point, thinking that Chara is innocent is just denial.

Yes, Chara offers trying out a different route next time. Yet they sure as hell won't stop encouraging it if it is started all over again. No matter if it's the 1st, 2nd, or 100th time you decide to kill everyone to wipe out the world, Chara will play along. This is considering the fact that their dialogue changes on the 2nd Genocide, and thus, proof that Chara's memory is unaffected by RESETs or ERASEs.

Yes, Chara says that YOU were the one who lead this world to ruin. But in my opinion, considering their offer for you to try out a different path, and their actions in Soulless Pacifist (which are, again, out of their own volition and unprompted), Chara's ultimate goal is to take over your/Frisk's soul. Which is why the point fingers and erase their contribution in all the murder, to try and make you feel guilty for it, seeing how you clearly do not wish to part with this world so easily.

Evidently, they've succeeded.

Chara would never get what they want at the end, if not for your help. And you wouldn't get what you want, if not for Chara's help.

The Player and Chara are partners. Let's never forget that.

Credit to the Undertale Text Project for the screenshots and to the nochocolate blog for opening my eyes all those years ago. I love you nochoco.

[inu-jiru]

TORIEL RANT INCOMING:

So, a couple years back, I wrote a disorganized rant about why I was frustrated with Toriel’s character in Undertale, and what I’ve seen in the anniversary post (as well as Deltarune) show me that my issues with Toriel still exist. And before I say anything else, I KNOW that Undertale is about a bunch of flawed characters. I KNOW that know one is meant to be perfect. I KNOW that characters have flaws. My issue is, how am I expected to care about a character who won’t acknowledge her flaws while constantly pointing out the flaws of others?

My issue with Toriel is her lack of accountability and how she’s seemingly untouchable by the rest of the cast when it comes to criticism. For a game that rewards mercy and grace, she constantly denies it from others (Asgore mostly, but he’s not the only example), and is honestly has quite a nasty personality behind those butterscotch pies. I’m not saying she’s secretly some evil witch or something, but she’s far less likeable to me because she’s coddled by the narrative and no one challenges her flawed way of thinking. I hate to do this, because I believe that Toby Fox is a more competent writer than Vivziepop, but Toriel kinda reminds me of Stolas in that regard, and I already despise Stolas as a character, the lack of self-awareness, shifting blame onto others, no one in the narrative actually calling them out and acting all chummy despite barely knowing them, and a spouse who takes the fandom’s ire. I know that Stella is (badly) written to be a one-note villain to justify Stolas’ behavior, and while I extend Stella grace because of that unfortunate fact, I can’t be as kind to Toriel because I know she could be written better.

I favor Asgore as a character because he takes accountability not only for himself, but for his people. He was angry when he announced the war; I can’t imagine any parent would be rational the second after the murder of their kid. I see Toriel’s running away in a similar light, or at least, I want to. The thing stopping me is that there doesn’t seem to be any realization on her part that she was upset or that Asgore, the father of her murdered child, might not have been in the best state of mind when he made that order. She seems to forget the man she married and is content to label him and, to a lesser extent, the rest of the Underground, as the evil ones, while ironically being quiet should Frisk murder a Froggit on front of her or show up to her house covered in dust. For the brains behind the throne, she’s a bit dense, and I can’t tell if that’s a writing issue or simply a character flaw.

It frustrates me that her black-and-white way of thinking is never challenged throughout the game and how she’s allowed to lecture Asgore and lord over others despite giving up her place as Queen. To be fair, the only member of the main cast I could realistically see calling her out for appearing out of nowhere and taking over is Undyne, given how she rebels against Toriel in one of the endings. In the pacifist ending, though, she’s weirdly chill with her possible partner being fired over a genuine mistake in an effort to find a peaceful alternative to SOUL collecting. The characterization seems off between the Pacifist and Neutral endings, and Asgore is similar, as he seems far more self-aware and thoughtful and quick to adopt Frisk in the neutral runs, while he’s a whimpering coward who can’t make decisions the second Toriel appears. Again, I don’t know if these are genuine character flaws or just issues with the writing itself.

I think I’d like Toriel better had she:

1. Done a better job of actually protecting the humans, because it seems like she either just is useless at watching them or waits for the very last second to swoop in and play the hero, like with Frisk.

2. Gone WITH Frisk to ensure their safety as the last SOUL required instead of just abandoning them for her own feelings (honestly, she seems like she only really cares when it’s convenient, otherwise it’s out of sight, out of mind), and maybe actually seeing how Asgore provided his people with hope while compromising and playing the long game.

3. Stayed in the Underground and stuck with her morals rather than moving to the surface and enjoying the benefits that OTHERS had to sacrifice their morals for.

4. Was called out by Undyne in the True Pacifist Run, or at least challenged for appearing out of nowhere because, realistically, only Sans knows who she is, and even that’s pushing it. Sure she’d probably double down on her own flawed logic, but at least the issue of her abandoning her people would actually be addressed and not ignored because “tee hee Soriel! tee hee Undyne and Alphys are gonna kiss!!!”

And just to touch on Asgore really quickly, I’m not saying how he went about things was the perfect solution, but there is no squeaky-clean way to handle the situation of the Barrier. Like it or not, 7 people are required to die if the Barrier is to be broken, since the experiments were a bust in the worst way possible. The thing is, I don’t see why it couldn’t have been a plot point that Asgore raised the humans himself. I get that they wanted to make it ambiguous as to if he was a scary monster like Toriel describes him, or a soft baby like the kingdom claims, but it could’ve worked. Have Asgore shift his decree when he’s more rational to capturing humans and having them delivered to him to “deal with”. Not everyone would follow this, realistically, because some are far more murder-happy than others (gotta put those combat encounters somewhere), but imagine Frisk going around and hearing about the humans being sent off to Asgore and never been seen again, Asgore banning entrance his house to honor his lost family, but still going out and being the friendly king he truly wants to be. All the while, he raises up the humans who choose to seek peace with him, and those who act violently are the ones who face an early end. Make it a parallel to Toriel’s shoebox of different sized shoes, and Asgore’s basement of different sized graves. I don’t know, I guess what I’m saying is neither character was really given much time to properly be explored. I still enjoy the game and it’s impact on me, but it’s definitely not perfect. I have much more I could rant about, but I’d be here all night.

Deltarune!Toriel and Asgore are hard to watch, honestly. Asgore feels like even more of a brainless idiot who’s only character traits are being divorced and poor, while Toriel comes off as one of those overbearing Christian moms who clutch their pearls at everything, which is…definitely a choice. Just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I want to like Toriel, I do. Hell, even during my hardcore Asgoriel days, I would actually write Toriel finally gaining some self-awareness and gaining some more nuance to her character, while Asgore actually learns to stand up for himself and not put up with Toriel’s passive-aggressiveness despite still loving her. Maybe I should write something about it for old time’s sake.

Anyway, that’s it for now. This is just my thoughts, agree or disagree if you want.