the waves broke on the shore

south asian american || any pronouns || queer

[the-waves-anon]

wait yes i’m surprised that someone so into woolf’s the waves found my post bc i was just posting some lines i liked and saved from my library book and dropped onto my Pinterest literature board… where’s the analysis twin

the waves was my first encounter with woolf’s writing and i knew it was very modernist but ohhh my god after a point, probably a while after they all left uni, i was struggling so much to read it because of JUST how abstract it was. like it was so fascinating to see only their thoughts as they processed but without anything physical to ground them it just felt like disconnected sentences, and at the end i was really just reading so i could return the book in time without having to renew it :( which is a shame because i feel like the novel has SO much to say and i did glean some of it (mainly in the passages i posted), but it was very difficult, especially on a first read. which was embarrassing in itself bc i often don’t find myself struggling so much with books but Christ woolf got my ass good 😭

heyy greetings!! i have to admit i was just scrolling through the waves tag (as i often do) like i was reading the daily newspaper in 1950s america & your post appealed to me just bc the quotes you dropped were like genuinely some of my very very favorites (like damn twin you have good taste) and seeing them was just like "!!! my favorite scene!!!" & since my copy has them highlighted and annotated, i can really see potential for in-depth analysis, esp since (in my opinion) the narrative style in those scenes is much more familiar to new readers which makes it such an invitation for deeper study

lowk i don't blame you for your first impression of the waves -- to some people it's way too dense to be understood & for others it's way too "out there" 😭 even for lovers of modernist literature, woolf takes stream of consciousness to the highest degree which leaves a lot of readers reeling. and fuck if her stream of consciousness isn't one of the most abstract things out there, so i totally get it 😭

however for me that's originally what drew me to the book, bc so many authors prize physicality of the world they depict so the mysteriousness of their characters' identities can be the focus of readers' analyses (totally valid)... whereas woolf made the reader really work to investigate a physical reality by giving the reader just the characters' thoughts -- completely turning normal literary practice on its head -- so readers have to investigate an objective reality first

(and then later on dig deeper into the characters since stream of consciousness narration is. well. unreliable. esp when a character discusses their own identity with feigned authority on the topic (honestly my go to rule is "always (initially) doubt first person narration" but that's a whole different thing 🥀))

but i mean. that amount of work is only fun for some people & some find it hard and draining and i honestly can't fault them for that... still i do recommend trying it again 😭😭 on the second read everything becomes a little clearer esp bc you've already read bernard's final section

there is a lovely ebook version on gutenberg (project gutenberg my beloved fr) if you don't want to borrow it from the library again 😭

but anyway tysm for your ask !!! ilyy farewelll

[achillesinhighheels]

[brechtian]

dreamt last night that I was the lead in a 90s vampire film played by Britney Spears and there was this guy who was basically Bobby from twin peaks but a vampire who was suuper into me and kept trying to get me to smoke a cigarette with him but I only smoke no nicotine cbd cigarettes so I refused and then he asked if he could walk me home when I said I was getting tired and wanted to leave the bar and I was like fine and then when we got to my house he begged like beggedd me to let him bite me and turn me into a vampire and I accepted coyly and then he bit me and I grew 12 feet and woke up. so what do you make of that Dr. Freud?

[mittenlady]

quotes from The Waves (1931), Virginia Woolf

[the-waves-anon]

guys it's june 25th!!!! happy "school day, hated day"!!!!

[consulships]

when will the tumblr mutuals collaborate on an academic paper #tbh

[currentlycryingaboutlancelot]

more people on this website need to be blogging about weird literature no one cares about

[a-stone-in-flight]

a hegelian analysis of jinny from the waves

tw: discussions of colonial racism and implied s/a

jinny might be one of the most overlooked and misunderstood characters in the waves. she's part of the reason why feminist scholars of woolf disregarded this book for decades, since the female characters in this book seem weak and stereotypical at first glance. jinny especially- it's easy to read her as frivolous and vain, but there is so much more going on with her character. reducing her to the stereotypes that woolf is purposefully playing on betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of one of the most meaningful parts of this text. on a surface level, jinny seems to be mainly influenced and motivated by countless men, but if you look closer, it's actually her relationships with *women* that define her, and they are fraught, violent, and mediated relationships.

there are three passages that really exemplify this:

for jinny, femininity is not frivolous and delicate- it is a life-and-death struggle, a war to be waged every day of her life, and she can never put down her weapons.

now, what does hegel have to do with all of this?

let's take a look at some passages from the phenomenology of spirit.

in this context, "self-conscious" doesn't mean nervous or uncomfortable, but rather philosophically conscious of one's own acts or states as belonging to or originatining in oneself. in hegel's opinion, developing a sophisticated and independent self-consciousness requires struggle and risk. by putting oneself at risk, one can prove their worth both to themself and another person. this is the way to achieve a higher self-consciousness- through doubling.

here, hegel is challenging earlier conceptions of how the self develops. he states that it requires the presence of another, rather than solitary navel-gazing and pondering within one's own mind.

this "doubled act" is what makes someone a self-conscious subject.

through this lens, let's look at this passage from the waves again:

the way that jinny constructs her identity, the way that she proves her worth to herself and others, is through this "honourable antagonism" and struggle.

additionally, the following passage is fraught with violent metaphors, showing how she is metaphorically "putting one's own life on the line" in order to prove her worth

however, jinny also constructs herself by rejecting "animalistic" or "natural" impulses.

in this passage, jinny has natural impulses, caused by fear, that she immediately rejects. she has an urge to "cower and run for shelter" and "make for the shadow" but she rejects those feelings immediately. twice, she insists "i will not be afraid."

by disallowing natural urges, she reaffirms her sense of self as someone who is not cowed, who is part of something "powerful and beautiful."

this contrast between self-conscious subjects and natural existence was explained by hegel:

it would be fair to say she has "let go of natural existence" in some ways, and that her "freedom of self-consciousness" depends on her ability to move through the world without being afraid. after being separated from herself in the scene above, she returns into herself by "[bringing] the whip down on [her] flanks."

additionally, another way jinny distinguishes herself is fraught with colonial racism- placing herself in opposition to the "savage" and the "animal" through signifiers of "civilization".

HUGE disclaimer: there are many problems with hegel's master-and-bondsman philosophy. i do not personally subscribe to hegel's beliefs, nor do i condone woolf's racism, but i believe that their works can be understood as products of history that can and should be analyzed and examined critically.

so, with that in mind, let's delve into hegel's master-bondsman dynamic.

let's break this down. so, the fundamental premise of this entire chapter is hegel's argument for how self-consciousness is attained and defined. he is examining the master-servant dynamic through this philosophical lens, and he comes to the conclusion that the master's self-consciousness is dependent on the servant. he is describing a mediated relation, or a relationship that requires an intermediary rather than being a direct connection. in this case, the "thinghood" is essential for the servant to act as an intermediary. (i'd love to go into aimé cesaire's take on this but then this post would be ten times as long). in his mind, the master cannot exist without the servant.

with this in mind, let's look at jinny in this passage:

although she does not have a personal relationship with or act as a direct "master" to anyone in particular, her identity as an English subject in the British Empire places her in a position of symbolic power. she embraces this position. in this passage, she differentiates herself from her imagined, stereotypical, subjugated colonial subjects and chooses to associates herself with victorious civilizers. this is a mediated relation through which she arrives at self-consciousness, and through the lens of hegel's master-servant dynamic, it seems unstable and exposes her instability and her lack of self-sufficiency. she is longing for certainty and power, but the way she "achieves" it reveals her fundamental uncertainty and instability. this can be read as a microcosm of the psychological dimension of coloniality (a reading which might be supported by bernard and neville's descriptions of percival).

on a character analysis level, however, this lends depth to the parts of jinny's character that are often deemed frivolous. by reading this passage through a hegelian lens, the "patent-leather shoes" and "reddened lips" and "finely pencilled eyebrows" are not merely makeup showing vanity but rather tools and weapons, signifiers of colonial strength showing psychological weakness.

in conclusion: let's stop overlooking jinny!!!!!!

[two-bees-poetry]

the grief of growing

[the-waves-anon]

rereading louis and rhoda passages for inspiration and oh my godd

these consecutive passages??

like louis believes that rhoda steps into the circle (loop of time/the world) as a more self-imposed isolation (an action that he identifies with) but rhoda believes she's outside the loop of time and has no place in the world (a belief that follows her throughout her entire life) like godd these two

[a-stone-in-flight]

yessss. they are mirrors they are foils they are HOPELESS. louis in his self-imposed isolation seeing rhoda... its giving this:

[cornballdangernoodle]

For some odd reason, I just can’t find Ophelia interesting. : /

She’s fine. It makes sense why she upset. Her dad made her dump her boyfriend and said ex boyfriend was attacked her verbally very very badly, only for him to be weirdly flirty later.

Then her ex murders her dad and makes “Oh no, stinkyyyy” jokes about the corpse.

But like, I cannot connect to Ophelia. It’s weird because she’s not like poorly written or anything. I just don’t really like Ophelia shrugs

[the-waves-anon]

okay so i kinda disagree with this but

disclaimer: you're absolutely entitled to your own opinion 100% and im not trying to judge you for not like identifying with ophelia or not liking her or anything but i need to get my thoughts out somehow

like like obviously you're entitled to your own opinion im not trying to just like - force an opinion on you or god forbid shame you for just not liking a character :sob:

ophelia is like. such an amazing character in so many ways??? her grief is not bc "her dad made her dump her bf, her bf shouted at her, he murders her dad & is mean about it" like that is . kinda an oversimplification

ophelia is one of the most perfect examples of the trauma, grief, and rage contained within shakespearean women, right alongside beatrice's "oh god that i were a man! i would eat his heart in the marketplace" (act iv, scene 1). (yes i know much ado about nothing is a comedy, no i don't think it takes away from the intensity of this line, no i don't think it's overused)

trying to reduce her character to revolve male characters' actions is. kinda reductive. yes she is mourning her father, yes hamlet was responsible for his murder, yes hamlet said unforgivable, horrific things to her. however i don't think that's the main point of her character

ophelia is constantly used as means to an end, by everyone, by all these nobles who didn't give a flying fuck about her. polonius tried to control her, they all tried to use her to "solve" hamlet's behavior (and okay, this also shows how grief is treated overall - extradiegetically how scholars say ophelia was "driven to madness by hamlet's rejection" and diegetically in the play how they think hamlet is just suffering from unrequited love)

and listen, you really, really can't deny the depth and sheer power of act iv scene 5 when ophelia says (although honestly when i read it i hear it as a shout or a scream) to all the nobles "pray you, mark" ...like ophelia is not just a woman crazed by grief at hamlet's rejection and her father's death; she's also filled with rage. oh god, that she were a man, you know??

and think about it like this: how ophelia and hamlet are character foils and yet so fucking similar when it comes down to their basic traits

they're character foils obviously bc like the most common difference is: hamlet responds to his grief by inflicting death on others (polonius, rosencrantz and guildenstern), ophelia responds to her grief by inflicting death on herself; hamlet responds with blades, ophelia with flowers; hamlet with monologues, ophelia with songs - have you read the poem "trying so hard not to be ophelia you become hamlet" bc that expresses it so much better than i could.

but also they're so fucking similar in that they both care so much about their fathers; they both try to do exactly what their father tells them. ophelia's father wanted caution - and she broke things off with hamlet, not bc she was forced to against her total will, but bc she valued her father's opinion above all else. hamlet spends the whole play figuring out ways to avenge his father - yes, he also debates whether or not to do it but above all he wants to carry out his father's wishes; hamlet's father wanted vengeance, and hamlet tries to comply.

they value their fathers & their fathers' opinions and values above all. they respond to grief with violence, death. they're both suicidal. and yet they spiral in different directions yk??

i beg you to reread act iv scene 5, please please i beseech you. is ophelia mad with grief because of hamlet? because of hamlet's rejection? i view it more as like. when her father died, when all the violets withered with him, she achieved something, some higher extradiegetic consciousness, some knowledge of the tragedy they're all completely locked in with no chance of escape

like have you seen/heard of the adaptation of hamlet in which laertes isn't switching out his sword for a poisoned one, but rather a poisoned sword for a regular one, because he understands he's in a revenge tragedy, and he doesn't want to be - like this? doesn't want to kill, doesn't want to die, doesn't want it to end like this? i mean: "Exchange forgiveness with me, noble Hamlet. / Mine and my father’s death come not upon thee, / Nor thine on me." (act v scene 2). (yeah sorry i cheated & looked at my hamlet pdf please don't kill me.)

i mean i feel like ophelia singing, ophelia handing out the flowers - i feel like she knows. i feel like she's mourning them all. mourning the living. do you see it or am i insane like can you see her power? enraged at being treated this way (pray you, mark!), yet grieving more than her father, more than her love; grieving everything instead? being enraged at the nobles, yet being sorrowful for their end?

was laertes right, that she was just seeking prettiness in the face of her father's death and flowers were just - pretty? or was it more than that? rosemary for remembrance, pansies for thoughts - the first rule of grief is to remember; the second is to never let go. remembrance, thoughts. a dead girl mourning the living - i definitely saw that interpretation somewhere else, but i don't remember where, sorrysorry i'll find it eventually.

ophelia, crazed and mad and deranged because her ex killed her dad? ophelia, crazed and mad and deranged because of her ex giving mixed signals & being rude about her dad's corpse?

no - no, i don't think so. how about this instead: ophelia, enraged. ophelia, mourning the living. ophelia, forgiving. ophelia, never forgetting. ophelia, living. ophelia, dead. ophelia, asking the nobles who dared use her as means to an end, 'can you bear it? can you fucking bear it? can you bear what i've become because of you?' ophelia, left knowing. ophelia, knowing.

do you get it?? please tell me you get it please please please please tell me you understand

i just. i just can't fathom someone not liking ophelia. ive loved her for so long, bc i see hamlet as nineteen and scared and a little in love with his best friend and grieving and insane; and i see ophelia as nineteen and lonely and faithful and loyal and grieving and angry and sad and. well i see myself in her i guess? i see being a teenage girl (tgirls included obviously and i'm kinda transmasc maybe but i still experienced the joys and horrors of being a teenage girl & am still actively experiencing them lmao) . like i see a teenage girl alone in her room, spiralling, in love and not in love at all, filled with love, and filled with grief, and filled with so much fucking anger. when i picture ophelia i don't think of the tragic beauty of her drowning, but her in a white dress, filled with rage and loss and sorrow, singing beautiful songs like funeral dirges. can you see her please please am i crazy

i'm repeating myself i'm sorry i know i am & you're absolutely entitled to not liking ophelia or not identifying with her and im not trying to judge you for that or anything but

god i don't know. whenever i think about ophelia my chest starts hurting and my fingertips start aching :sob::sob::sob:

[cornballdangernoodle]

I am going to have to respectfully disagree. Please don’t read my post as angry or malicious because I unfortunately tend to take on a rather dry and formal tone when I’m in an analytical mood ;(>_<) Am not angy! Just speak dry! Pls understand!

Okay, so I confess in my original post I simplified things to try to keep a jokey tone, but what happened to Ophelia really was bad. And I feel like you’re undermining them a bit. Also, I don’t think she went mad from just one stressor. She had a ton of stressors. I just think her dad being murdered was the last straw. Ever drop a glass and accidentally break it when you’ve already been having an awful day so you just can’t hold in the anguish anymore and start sobbing? I view Ophelia like that.

Yes, she’s insane because she’s been oppressed and ignored by the entire court. Yes, she’s insane because Hamlet was awful to her- I’m not going to underplay it. It wasn’t just a bad breakup. She was watching someone she loved have an absolutely awful meltdown in front of her and verbally attacking her in the process. It’s extremely distressing to see a loved one start to ramble about nobody else marrying ever so no more people are created and the net evil in the world will stop increasing. Also him asking to use her lap as a pillow later is also incredibly distressing. I wouldn’t call that “mixed signals”. I’d call that a highly unstable relationship.

Yes, she’s insane because her father was murdered. She very clearly loved her father and wanted to please him. She was incredibly loyal to him no matter if he was a… uh… the word is “helicopter parent,” right? Anyways, she loved him a ton. He was another one of her loved ones. And Hamlet killed him. Hamlet killed him, hid the body, and made jokes about it.

I see Ophelia as a loving person. And it hurts when you lose people you love, people who are dear to you. And it hurts when people don’t love you back. They won’t extend to you like you did to them. They ignore you. They allow you to spiral.

I suppose I can see Ophelia snapping at people, but I can’t imagine her truly hating or thinking in an almost meta-narrative manner.

[the-waves-anon]

hiii omg ty for responding & not being mad at me - i was so scared you were going to be offended 

i kind of want to continue this discussion bc it’s so interesting but tell me if after this post you don’t feel like responding or whatever & i’ll stop bothering you 😭 

okay so. i see how 

ophelia, crazed and mad and deranged because her ex killed her dad? ophelia, crazed and mad and deranged because of her ex giving mixed signals & being rude about her dad's corpse? 

could be misinterpreted but i genuinely wasn’t trying to minimize her issues - i was acc just trying to convey how the original post seemed to simplify her struggle, although now that i’ve read this response that’s probably not what you meant 

i was acc trying to challenge the ideas expressed. that’s why immediately after this paragraph i say “no - no, i don't think so. how about this instead”- i was trying to challenge the reductive language used in the original post. 

“her ex killed her dad” & “her ex was giving mixed signals” or “her ex was being rude” was meant to correspond to “boyfriend was attacked her verbally very very badly, only for him to be weirdly flirty later” and “Then her ex murders her dad and makes “Oh no, stinkyyyy” jokes about the corpse.”

like what i really meant to emphasize was the second passage of your quoted part - this was my opinion: 

ophelia, enraged. ophelia, mourning the living. ophelia, forgiving. ophelia, never forgetting. ophelia, living. ophelia, dead. ophelia, asking the nobles who dared use her as means to an end, 'can you bear it? can you fucking bear it? can you bear what i've become because of you?' ophelia, left knowing. ophelia, knowing.

definitely NOT the first part of the passage :sob: that is what i actively disagreed with. 

& that disagreement is also found in the first part of my response:

her grief is not bc "her dad made her dump her bf, her bf shouted at her, he murders her dad & is mean about it" like that is . kinda an oversimplification

i already covered that i’m against “mixed signals” just like you but i also feel like “I wouldn’t call that ‘mixed signals’. I’d call that a highly unstable relationship” is an example of people applying modern, very very contemporary values (individual and societal) to fiction/fictional characters, like i feel like lowk you’re treating hamlet and ophelia’s relationship as if they’re real modern-day people in the modern definition of a toxic relationship, rather than figures and concepts. if these were real people in a real relationship, it would totally be “unstable” - but that’s not the central theme of the play. 

(& also even if it was a play like romeo and juliet where the central theme is a romantic relationship, it would also be minimizing to claim that it’s an unstable relationship (“juliet and romeo were just kids like wasn’t juliet fourteen? that’s gross” & “there’s no way they fell in love and died for each other as teenagers 🙄” & cetera) since they’re not meant to be a realistic teenage couple - they’re fictional figures and concepts that explore trying to endure a world full of hatred and protect the love they share. ik this is kinda a digression but i feel like it’s important to convey my argument about hamlet and ophelia)

& i think this also applies to your depiction polonius and ophelia’s father-daughter relationship, since your assertion “She was incredibly loyal to him no matter if he was a… uh… the word is “helicopter parent,” right?” also is an example of applying modern terminology, ideas, and values (individual and societal) as if they’re real people in this contemporary era

& also i’m kind of confused about your following statement in your recent response - “Also, I don’t think she went mad from just one stressor. She had a ton of stressors.” - bc i definitely wasn’t trying to imply she didn’t have many stressors? i tried to convey this in these passages of my response:

ophelia is one of the most perfect examples of the trauma, grief, and rage contained within shakespearean women [...] ophelia, enraged. ophelia, mourning the living. ophelia, forgiving. ophelia, never forgetting. ophelia, living. ophelia, dead. ophelia, asking the nobles who dared use her as means to an end, 'can you bear it? can you fucking bear it? can you bear what i've become because of you?' ophelia, left knowing. ophelia, knowing.”

so like. the shakespearean woman is complex (grief and trauma, love and rage, logic and intelligence, facing oppression by men in their life), and i thought that depicting ophelia as an example of the shakespearean would convey the complexity of her struggle and the complexity of her identity, but i def see how it could be misinterpreted & that i should’ve expanded way more on that idea

which admittedly you did allude to the “nobles who dared to use her as means to an end” i spoke of: “Yes, she’s insane because she’s been oppressed and ignored by the entire court.”

and i did agree with this part of your response: 

He was another one of her loved ones. And Hamlet killed him. Hamlet killed him, hid the body, and made jokes about it. [...] I just think her dad being murdered was the last straw.

which i tried to convey here: 

i view [her grief/madness/etc] more as like. when her father died, when all the violets withered with him, she achieved something, some higher extradiegetic consciousness, some knowledge of the tragedy they're all completely locked in with no chance of escape

and also. in my passage that was like ophelia as a teenage girl, i was also trying to convey her complexity and the thousands of stressors she experiences by comparing her experiences to that of teenage girls (tgirls included, obviously) 

i see ophelia as nineteen and lonely and faithful and loyal and grieving and angry and sad and. well i see myself in her i guess? i see being a teenage girl (tgirls included obviously and i'm kinda transmasc maybe but i still experienced the joys and horrors of being a teenage girl & am still actively experiencing them lmao) . like i see a teenage girl alone in her room, spiralling, in love and not in love at all, filled with love, and filled with grief, and filled with so much fucking anger.

this was like meant to be the main crux of my point here - the complexity and nuance and vastness of her emotion (although it’s important to note ophelia’s character is not just about emotion. that interpretation is used very very commonly by scholars who are cis men & usually the interpretation is in a super sexist and misogynistic context - that’s why i had the whole meta-textual analysis in order to convey her knowledge and intelligence as a character in a revenge play)

& your next argument - 

It’s extremely distressing to see a loved one start to ramble about nobody else marrying ever so no more people are created and the net evil in the world will stop increasing. Also him asking to use her lap as a pillow later is also incredibly distressing.

- well, i do agree with since that would be distressing for anyone. however i feel like this idea is also the product of cis male scholars bc they are always, always framing her supposed madness as evidence of hamlet’s actions - which, yes, ofc that’s a part of it, but it also definitely minimizes her character. analyses like this feel like they’re presenting women’s experiences as always revolving around the men in their life, you know? obviously hamlet’s actions were distressing, i completely agree with you there, but i also feel like it’s infinitely more complicated and nuanced than that

& for your last passage about ophelia as loving -

I see Ophelia as a loving person. And it hurts when you lose people you love, people who are dear to you. And it hurts when people don’t love you back. They won’t extend to you like you did to them. They ignore you. They allow you to spiral. [...] I suppose I can see Ophelia snapping at people, but I can’t imagine her truly hating or thinking in an almost meta-narrative manner.

i just. i kinda want to challenge “I can’t imagine her truly hating or thinking in an almost meta-narrative manner.” bc sure, okay, i just read rosencrantz and guildenstern are dead by tom stoppard (which i highly recommend lmao) and the whole play is centered around meta-narrative ideas and meta-textual themes, so i might have been heavily influenced by that. however, i don’t think that those ideas are confined to ragad - they are also present in major interpretations of hamlet (the play and the character) 

bc okay so. the play hamlet is absolutely famous for its discursive themes in a diegetic-extradiegetic context. like it has a scene that’s literally a play within a play. and an actor being a character acting (okay that phrasing is clunky - i’m referring to the fact that hamlet is acting as if he’s insane diegetically; and hamlet is played by an actor in real life extradiegetically, so an actor is acting as someone else who is acting as someone else (like a mad version of himself)) & that isn’t going unrecognized by the thousands of literary analysts of hamlet. i’ve seen many texts that have this interpretation - hamlet trying to stop the tragedy, hamlet knowing he’s in a revenge play, hamlet knowing. the most-posed question of the play = “is hamlet actually mad?” idk if you see this interpretation, but i thought it’d be very important to analyze ophelia in the same intensity and manner than scholars analyze hamlet. bc ophelia really really doesn’t receive the same kind of analysis. scholars write her off so easily (have you seen that post that’s just like “i diagnose ophelia with Woman” lmao), & they just turn to hamlet immediately. 

- i also find some issues with

I see Ophelia as a loving person. And it hurts when you lose people you love, people who are dear to you. And it hurts when people don’t love you back. [...] I suppose I can see Ophelia snapping at people, but I can’t imagine her truly hating

like to me that argument really does lend itself to the opinions of cis male scholars who enjoy romanticizing ophelia’s “tragic beauty,” her loyalty to her father, her love for her father, and her love for hamlet. 

& by emphasizing her loving nature (which, yes, of course ophelia is loving, i’m definitely not denying that, it’s just the fact that they reduce her to this characteristic that i have a problem with) it feels like she’s being put on a pedestal, the pedestal of “pure femininity,” being a “pure feminine ideal” whose main trait is just “faithful love for men in her life” (and this theme is also seen in contemporary media as well) & that - well, it feels kinda problematic. i’m not saying this is the entirety of your opinion in this passage at all. i’m just saying the ideas expressed in this passage lend themselves to the same underlying and fundamental logic of sexist cis male literary analysts - that all characters who are women only revolve around men in their lives 

like i’m definitely not trying to like. villainize your opinion or be pretentious or mean & i’m definitely not like. angry - i really really don’t want to offend you & i like this conversation to be honest 😭 but if you ever want me to stop and/or want to block me like just tell me you want to stop & i will 😭

[dodobirdguy123456]

Hamlet if he was admiring the gyatt: "All ass, poor Yorick"

[a-stone-in-flight]

@the-waves-anon

[the-waves-anon]

@a-stone-in-flight i hate you so much right now

[1anonyymous1]

mental health status: need to look at the sea for hours and stay quiet

[a-stone-in-flight]

@the-waves-anon would this fix rhoda...

[the-waves-anon]

@a-stone-in-flight LOWK YES

[shakespeare-guy-anon]

sometimes i think about ophelia and then i cry a little and then i have to keep going about my day

[the-waves-anon]

waves quotes as sentences from my summer german class during the coffee house unit <3

rhoda:

louis:

bernard:

[cornballdangernoodle]

For some odd reason, I just can’t find Ophelia interesting. : /

She’s fine. It makes sense why she upset. Her dad made her dump her boyfriend and said ex boyfriend was attacked her verbally very very badly, only for him to be weirdly flirty later.

Then her ex murders her dad and makes “Oh no, stinkyyyy” jokes about the corpse.

But like, I cannot connect to Ophelia. It’s weird because she’s not like poorly written or anything. I just don’t really like Ophelia shrugs

[the-waves-anon]

okay so i kinda disagree with this but

disclaimer: you're absolutely entitled to your own opinion 100% and im not trying to judge you for not like identifying with ophelia or not liking her or anything but i need to get my thoughts out somehow

like like obviously you're entitled to your own opinion im not trying to just like - force an opinion on you or god forbid shame you for just not liking a character :sob:

ophelia is like. such an amazing character in so many ways??? her grief is not bc "her dad made her dump her bf, her bf shouted at her, he murders her dad & is mean about it" like that is . kinda an oversimplification

ophelia is one of the most perfect examples of the trauma, grief, and rage contained within shakespearean women, right alongside beatrice's "oh god that i were a man! i would eat his heart in the marketplace" (act iv, scene 1). (yes i know much ado about nothing is a comedy, no i don't think it takes away from the intensity of this line, no i don't think it's overused)

trying to reduce her character to revolve male characters' actions is. kinda reductive. yes she is mourning her father, yes hamlet was responsible for his murder, yes hamlet said unforgivable, horrific things to her. however i don't think that's the main point of her character

ophelia is constantly used as means to an end, by everyone, by all these nobles who didn't give a flying fuck about her. polonius tried to control her, they all tried to use her to "solve" hamlet's behavior (and okay, this also shows how grief is treated overall - extradiegetically how scholars say ophelia was "driven to madness by hamlet's rejection" and diegetically in the play how they think hamlet is just suffering from unrequited love)

and listen, you really, really can't deny the depth and sheer power of act iv scene 5 when ophelia says (although honestly when i read it i hear it as a shout or a scream) to all the nobles "pray you, mark" ...like ophelia is not just a woman crazed by grief at hamlet's rejection and her father's death; she's also filled with rage. oh god, that she were a man, you know??

and think about it like this: how ophelia and hamlet are character foils and yet so fucking similar when it comes down to their basic traits

they're character foils obviously bc like the most common difference is: hamlet responds to his grief by inflicting death on others (polonius, rosencrantz and guildenstern), ophelia responds to her grief by inflicting death on herself; hamlet responds with blades, ophelia with flowers; hamlet with monologues, ophelia with songs - have you read the poem "trying so hard not to be ophelia you become hamlet" bc that expresses it so much better than i could.

but also they're so fucking similar in that they both care so much about their fathers; they both try to do exactly what their father tells them. ophelia's father wanted caution - and she broke things off with hamlet, not bc she was forced to against her total will, but bc she valued her father's opinion above all else. hamlet spends the whole play figuring out ways to avenge his father - yes, he also debates whether or not to do it but above all he wants to carry out his father's wishes; hamlet's father wanted vengeance, and hamlet tries to comply.

they value their fathers & their fathers' opinions and values above all. they respond to grief with violence, death. they're both suicidal. and yet they spiral in different directions yk??

i beg you to reread act iv scene 5, please please i beseech you. is ophelia mad with grief because of hamlet? because of hamlet's rejection? i view it more as like. when her father died, when all the violets withered with him, she achieved something, some higher extradiegetic consciousness, some knowledge of the tragedy they're all completely locked in with no chance of escape

like have you seen/heard of the adaptation of hamlet in which laertes isn't switching out his sword for a poisoned one, but rather a poisoned sword for a regular one, because he understands he's in a revenge tragedy, and he doesn't want to be - like this? doesn't want to kill, doesn't want to die, doesn't want it to end like this? i mean: "Exchange forgiveness with me, noble Hamlet. / Mine and my father’s death come not upon thee, / Nor thine on me." (act v scene 2). (yeah sorry i cheated & looked at my hamlet pdf please don't kill me.)

i mean i feel like ophelia singing, ophelia handing out the flowers - i feel like she knows. i feel like she's mourning them all. mourning the living. do you see it or am i insane like can you see her power? enraged at being treated this way (pray you, mark!), yet grieving more than her father, more than her love; grieving everything instead? being enraged at the nobles, yet being sorrowful for their end?

was laertes right, that she was just seeking prettiness in the face of her father's death and flowers were just - pretty? or was it more than that? rosemary for remembrance, pansies for thoughts - the first rule of grief is to remember; the second is to never let go. remembrance, thoughts. a dead girl mourning the living - i definitely saw that interpretation somewhere else, but i don't remember where, sorrysorry i'll find it eventually.

ophelia, crazed and mad and deranged because her ex killed her dad? ophelia, crazed and mad and deranged because of her ex giving mixed signals & being rude about her dad's corpse?

no - no, i don't think so. how about this instead: ophelia, enraged. ophelia, mourning the living. ophelia, forgiving. ophelia, never forgetting. ophelia, living. ophelia, dead. ophelia, asking the nobles who dared use her as means to an end, 'can you bear it? can you fucking bear it? can you bear what i've become because of you?' ophelia, left knowing. ophelia, knowing.

do you get it?? please tell me you get it please please please please tell me you understand

i just. i just can't fathom someone not liking ophelia. ive loved her for so long, bc i see hamlet as nineteen and scared and a little in love with his best friend and grieving and insane; and i see ophelia as nineteen and lonely and faithful and loyal and grieving and angry and sad and. well i see myself in her i guess? i see being a teenage girl (tgirls included obviously and i'm kinda transmasc maybe but i still experienced the joys and horrors of being a teenage girl & am still actively experiencing them lmao) . like i see a teenage girl alone in her room, spiralling, in love and not in love at all, filled with love, and filled with grief, and filled with so much fucking anger. when i picture ophelia i don't think of the tragic beauty of her drowning, but her in a white dress, filled with rage and loss and sorrow, singing beautiful songs like funeral dirges. can you see her please please am i crazy

i'm repeating myself i'm sorry i know i am & you're absolutely entitled to not liking ophelia or not identifying with her and im not trying to judge you for that or anything but

god i don't know. whenever i think about ophelia my chest starts hurting and my fingertips start aching :sob::sob::sob:

[the-waves-anon]

my internal monologue when people talk to me: i am not rhoda i am not rhoda i am not rhoda i am not rhoda i am not rho